I am converting an ancient (1960s) garage to a store
room for wood (for woodworking not fire wood)
and tools. The size is 4.4M long, 2.45M wide and 2.2M
High. I want to seal this room from damp.

The floor is a concrete slab, that does not have a damp
proof membrane.

The walls are single skin concrete blocks that sit on the
concrete slab. There is a strip of damp-proofing at floor level.
There is half an inch of mortar on the floor, then the
damp-proofing, then another half inch of mortar, then the
first row of blocks.

The walls have been painted with white emulsion.
As you can see from the staining there has been damp
coming through the walls. Much of this has been because
of debris build up outside - this has now been cleared.

See picture 001... at

http://www.gillandroy.com/diy/storeroom

What would the experts recommend to hold the damp at bay.

Outside is all a bit tight. The wall at the far end has a retaining
wall keeping a neighbours garden at bay see picy 003.

The left hand wall has a narrow gap to another neighbours
property, which is at a much higher ground level.
See picky 006.

The outside of these walls are "get-atable" but only just.

Roy

"RzB" <Please@Reply.to.newsgroup> wrote in message 
news:3oqlltF71c5gU1@individual.net...

>I am converting an ancient (1960s)


You call that ancient?

RzB wrote:

> I am converting an ancient (1960s) garage to a store
> room for wood (for woodworking not fire wood)
> and tools. The size is 4.4M long, 2.45M wide and 2.2M
> High. I want to seal this room from damp.


Dry line it? - build a timber framework between floor and ceiling for 
attaching plasterboards, with a 1" air gap between timber and walls

David

Lobster wrote:

> RzB wrote:
> 
>> I am converting an ancient (1960s) garage to a store
>> room for wood (for woodworking not fire wood)
>> and tools. The size is 4.4M long, 2.45M wide and 2.2M
>> High. I want to seal this room from damp.
> 
> 
> Dry line it? - build a timber framework between floor and ceiling for 
> attaching plasterboards, with a 1" air gap between timber and walls
> 
> David


You may want to consider insulating the dry lining and including a 
vapour barrier / membrane (you can buy wall board with this on).

Ideally, for storing timber for woodworking the environmental conditions 
should be close to as possible to the environment that your work will 
live in other wise the wood will (generally) dry out following being 
placed in a, say, centrally heated house.

I have been caught out by this and experienced movement even with kiln 
dried timber, but worse with reclaimed stuff which was probably never 
dried properly.

Inroducing heating will help but some heaters such as gas heaters emit 
moisture as a by product, which does not help. I am thinking about a 
wood burning stove, for working but not long term storage, in my "shed".

Leaving you timber under the bed etc to acclimatise for a (quite) while 
before working might be one approach.

HTH,

Alex.

Alex,

Many thanks for you help. I do intend to
have a dehumidifier running in this room.

I must admit I was not really considering
a second skin. I was hoping to do some sort
of tanking or whatever. Also a second skin is
not going to stop damp coming through
the floor....

Hmm..

Thanks,
Roy

RzB wrote:

> I must admit I was not really considering
> a second skin. I was hoping to do some sort
> of tanking or whatever.


Paint it with bitumen emulsion, three coats at right
angles, let each coat dry thoroughly before applying
the next. Blind the last coat while still wet with
dry sand (throw it on with a (hand) coal shovel).
When it's completely dry, nail on a treated batten
all around the bottom, and plaster.

Chris Bacon wrote:

> RzB wrote:
> 
>> I must admit I was not really considering
>> a second skin. I was hoping to do some sort
>> of tanking or whatever.
> 
> 
> Paint it with bitumen emulsion, three coats at right
> angles, let each coat dry thoroughly before applying
> the next. Blind the last coat while still wet with
> dry sand (throw it on with a (hand) coal shovel).
> When it's completely dry, nail on a treated batten
> all around the bottom, and plaster.


Pliolite paint is easier, and probably more effective than bitumen, at 
least in  emulsion form.

Stuart Noble wrote:

> Chris Bacon wrote:
>> RzB wrote:
>>> I must admit I was not really considering
>>> a second skin. I was hoping to do some sort
>>> of tanking or whatever.
>>
>> Paint it with bitumen emulsion, three coats at right
>> angles, let each coat dry thoroughly before applying
>> the next. Blind the last coat while still wet with
>> dry sand (throw it on with a (hand) coal shovel).
>> When it's completely dry, nail on a treated batten
>> all around the bottom, and plaster.
> 
> 
> Pliolite paint is easier, and probably more effective than bitumen, at 
> least in  emulsion form.


It's nowhere near as effective as bitumen emulsion (which
is water proof), and it's a "breathable" paint - it will
let moisture pass through from the wall, which is what the
OP wants to avoid!

Chris/Stuart,
Many thanks for your help.

Will it be OK to paint the bitumen over the white
emulsion paint?

And can I do the same on the floor ?

Thanks,
Roy

RzB wrote:

> Will it be OK to paint the bitumen over the white
> emulsion paint?


There's not much you can do about that, short of getting
the inside sand-blasted... there should be a reasonable
"key, I should think, and bitumen emulsion is very, very
sticky.

Stuart: I've thought about my post about bitumen emulsion
being waterproof - I am not trying to be nasty - have you
used bitumen emulsion? It's a deep black-brown shite, that
smells faintly "off", and has no relation to "emulsion
paint" as we know it. When it's dry, it is a film of
waterproof bitumen - the idea of going three layers is
of course to make sure there are no holes in the film!
It can be used to paint over concrete flors which are then
screeded - giving a damp-proof course. It's *very nasty*
to clothes, brushes etc. - unless you are contemplating
cleaning-up with petrol or something, chuck away things
that are contaminated. Don't get it near paint, either,
as it will discolour and bleed through.

http://www.eabassoc.co.uk/RBE.htm
http://www.ruberoid.co.uk/index.php?page=83
http://www.pickquick.co.uk/logcorubberprufe.htm

(see "Keying Treatment" in last URL).



> And can I do the same on the floor ?


Similar, if it's clean-ish - screed it over.

Chris,

A bit of a google showed up this - I guess this is the
sort of stuff you are talking about...

http://www.antel-uk.co.uk/tds/ad01.html

I'll follow through on this - in fact they are not very
far from me..

Many thanks for your help..
Roy

"RzB" <Please@Reply.to.newsgroup> wrote in message 
news:3orbkhF792h1U1@individual.net...

> Chris,
>
> A bit of a google showed up this - I guess this is the
> sort of stuff you are talking about...
>
> http://www.antel-uk.co.uk/tds/ad01.html
>
> I'll follow through on this - in fact they are not very
> far from me..
>
> Many thanks for your help..
> Roy


Roy, I'd like to chip in to add that however waterproof you make the walls 
and floor, you're always going to get condensation inside, particularly when 
the weather gets colder.  Sealing the structure will not prevent this and 
actually will tend to seal it in, so without good ventilation the garage is 
going to become very musty - ideal conditions for rot. If you're storing 
timber it's very important to have plenty of fresh air circulating to 
prevent it rotting, just like you'd have for the void under a timber floor. 
So, as well as the window, I think I'd feel happier with several 9x9 
airbricks in the walls.

Peter

In message <43282495$0$32462$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>, Mary 
Fisher  writes

>
>"RzB" <Please@Reply.to.newsgroup> wrote in message
>news:3oqlltF71c5gU1@individual.net...
>>I am converting an ancient (1960s)
>
>You call that ancient?
>

My thoughts exactly

-- 
geoff

"Peter Taylor"  wrote in message

>
> Roy, I'd like to chip in to add that however waterproof you make the walls 
> and floor, you're always going to get condensation inside, particularly 
> when the weather gets colder.  Sealing the structure will not prevent this 
> and actually will tend to seal it in, so without good ventilation the 
> garage is going to become very musty - ideal conditions for rot. If you're 
> storing timber it's very important to have plenty of fresh air circulating 
> to prevent it rotting, just like you'd have for the void under a timber 
> floor. So, as well as the window, I think I'd feel happier with several 
> 9x9 airbricks in the walls.
>
> Peter

Peter,

Many thanks for your help. Yes - very good thoughts.
I do intend to run a dehumidifier in this room - constantly.
Do you think I should add ventilation as well given that fact?
The situation of the structure is that it is in a fairly enclosed
space on all sides. As you can see from the pictures.
Trees around and over. All in all a very damp area.
Very little air movement even on a windy day.

I was considering airbricks but decided on the dehumidifier
route because I felt the environment in that location was just
too damp.

Still not sure what to do on this subject...

Many thanks,
Roy

OK, OK - I was exagerating :-)

But you have to realise it's already
been renovated twice :-)

Roy

"raden"  wrote in message 
news:CsQr3dex9JKDFwUs@ntlworld.com...

> In message <43282495$0$32462$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>, Mary Fisher 
>  writes
>>
>>"RzB" <Please@Reply.to.newsgroup> wrote in message
>>news:3oqlltF71c5gU1@individual.net...
>>>I am converting an ancient (1960s)
>>
>>You call that ancient?
>>
> My thoughts exactly


<feels faint>

We agree on something!

:-)

Mary

>
> -- 
> geoff 

"RzB" <Please@Reply.to.newsgroup> wrote in message 
news:3osq5nF7hontU1@individual.net...

> Peter,
>
> Many thanks for your help. Yes - very good thoughts.
> I do intend to run a dehumidifier in this room - constantly.
> Do you think I should add ventilation as well given that fact?
> The situation of the structure is that it is in a fairly enclosed
> space on all sides. As you can see from the pictures.
> Trees around and over. All in all a very damp area.
> Very little air movement even on a windy day.
>
> I was considering airbricks but decided on the dehumidifier
> route because I felt the environment in that location was just
> too damp.
>
> Still not sure what to do on this subject...
>
> Many thanks,
> Roy


Sounds like my garage!  :o)  You'll probably find condensation dripping from 
the ceiling in the winter, especially when there's snow on the roof.

If it was a purpose-built timber store it would have fully open sides like a 
Dutch barn or be completely louvred to keep the rain out.  You can't have 
too much ventilation, but too little will create really big problems.  The 
sheltered situation makes this all the more important.

I don't honestly think the dehumidifier is a practical answer.  It won't do 
any harm, but it will be very expensive to run and need constant emptying. 
This doesn't really add up when natural ventilation will do the same job for 
free without having to burn more fossilised trees.

If you're really worried about it, or if it's valuable hardwood, it's a good 
idea to invest in a moisture meter so you can make sure the moisture content 
in the timber doesn't go above 20%.  Try to ensure that air can circulate to 
all surfaces (using spacers if necessary) and keep it well supported so it 
doesn't sag.

HTH
Peter

Chris Bacon wrote:


> Stuart: I've thought about my post about bitumen emulsion
> being waterproof - I am not trying to be nasty - have you
> used bitumen emulsion? 

Yes, I'm familiar with bitumen, and bitumen emulsion, the latter being 
widely used during WW2. The problem with all emulsions is that the 
surfactants used to make them water dispersible in the first place 
remain in the dried film, making them more water sensitive than the 
solvent based equivalent. If you apply it half an inch thick then this 
may not be an issue, but I think things have moved on in the coatings field.
Pliolite resins are now widely used as masonry paints and, like most 
surface coatings, they are not a barrier to water *vapour*, only to 
water *droplets* i.e. rain. So they breathe, and although the air they 
breathe may be close to 100% moisture content on occasions, they don't 
drink and so usually prevent water reaching the inside of the building.

Stuart Noble wrote:

> Chris Bacon wrote:
> 
>> Stuart: I've thought about my post about bitumen emulsion
>> being waterproof - I am not trying to be nasty - have you
>> used bitumen emulsion? 
> 
> Yes, I'm familiar with bitumen, and bitumen emulsion, the latter being 
> widely used during WW2. The problem with all emulsions is that the 
> surfactants used to make them water dispersible in the first place 
> remain in the dried film, making them more water sensitive than the 
> solvent based equivalent.


However, I've never seen bitumen emulsion wash off, once cured.



> If you apply it half an inch thick then this 
> may not be an issue, but I think things have moved on in the coatings 
> field.


It's in wide use for tanking, DPCs, and all sorts of things.



> Pliolite resins are now widely used as masonry paints and, like most 
> surface coatings, they are not a barrier to water *vapour*, only to 
> water *droplets* i.e. rain. So they breathe, and although the air they 
> breathe may be close to 100% moisture content on occasions, they don't 
> drink and so usually prevent water reaching the inside of the building.


Th OP was, I thought, looking for something to put *inside*
his building, as the outside can't be accessed all around.
Masonry paint would be OK on the outside, but not the inside,
as it would "breathe" water into the building! Maybe I read
it wrong.

"Stuart Noble"  wrote in message 
news:cocWe.191$QU3.96@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...

> Chris Bacon wrote:
>
>> Stuart: I've thought about my post about bitumen emulsion
>> being waterproof - I am not trying to be nasty - have you
>> used bitumen emulsion?
> Yes, I'm familiar with bitumen, and bitumen emulsion, the latter being 
> widely used during WW2. The problem with all emulsions is that the 
> surfactants used to make them water dispersible in the first place remain 
> in the dried film, making them more water sensitive than the solvent based 
> equivalent. If you apply it half an inch thick then this may not be an 
> issue, but I think things have moved on in the coatings field.
> Pliolite resins are now widely used as masonry paints and, like most 
> surface coatings, they are not a barrier to water *vapour*, only to water 
> *droplets* i.e. rain. So they breathe, and although the air they breathe 
> may be close to 100% moisture content on occasions, they don't drink and 
> so usually prevent water reaching the inside of the building.


Stuart,
Many thanks for your thoughts on this.
One of the things I have been considering is to run a dehumidifier
in this room, after it's been "sealed". If I use the breathable stuff
you are suggesting does this mean my dehumidifier will be pulling
moisture in from the outside?
Many thanks,
Roy

Oh ? I was thinking this was for the inside ? Yes / No?

Roy

RzB wrote:

> Oh ? I was thinking this was for the inside ? Yes / No?


Not sure what you mean, but I thought you wanted to put
something inside, as you can't get all around the outside,
hence suggesting a coat of bitumen emulsion/sand blinding
then a plaster coat. Did you mean the inside, or the outside?

Apols - Yes - I'm looking to put whatever on the inside...

What my post is saying, is that when I read Stuarts post
I thought he was saying the Pliolite stuff was to be applied
to the inside... Your post suggest that may not be the case...

Doh... crossing at talk purposes :-)

Roy

RzB wrote:

> Apols - Yes - I'm looking to put whatever on the inside...
> 
> What my post is saying, is that when I read Stuarts post
> I thought he was saying the Pliolite stuff was to be applied
> to the inside... Your post suggest that may not be the case...
> 
> Doh... crossing at talk purposes :-)
> 
> Roy 
> 
> 


Put it wherever you like :-)
Best on the outside of course, but all forms of tanking are a 
compromise. You're basically allowing water into the wall but trying to 
stop it coming all the way through to the inside. Bitumen is one way but 
I'd guess pliolite would do the same with a much thinner coat.

Chris Bacon wrote:


> It's in wide use for tanking, DPCs, and all sorts of things.


Used to be....


> 
> Th OP was, I thought, looking for something to put *inside*
> his building, as the outside can't be accessed all around.
> Masonry paint would be OK on the outside, but not the inside,
> as it would "breathe" water into the building! Maybe I read
> it wrong.


If it breathes, it surely doesn't matter whether it's in or out. And 
bitumen breathes too you said?

You'll have gathered I don't have much time for this breathing lark. For 
something to *not* be breathable it would have to be airtight, which is 
quite beyond the capabilities of anything you can tosh on with a brush.

I would add that IME dehumidifiers will always pull in gallons of water 
and, unless the area is totally sealed, most of it will be sucked in 
from outdoors.

"AlexW"  wrote in message 
news:4329f15b$0$18648$14726298@news.sunsite.dk...

> Peter Taylor wrote:
> <snip>
>> If you're really worried about it, or if it's valuable hardwood, it's a 
>> good idea to invest in a moisture meter so you can make sure the moisture 
>> content in the timber doesn't go above 20%.  Try to ensure that air can 
>> circulate to all surfaces (using spacers if necessary) and keep it well 
>> supported so it doesn't sag.
>>
>> HTH
>> Peter
>
> 20% seems pretty high to me, surely you would be aiming for much less 
> moisture (10%?) to avoid shrinkage ... assuming the end products are to be 
> used indoors?
>
> Alex


Yes, from that point of view you're right Alex.  But I think it would be a 
difficult job trying to keep it down to 10% in an unheated garage, even with 
waterproof walls ;), as the moisture content in the timber will always try 
to equate with the surrounding air.  On average, new timber at the merchants 
has around 18% and hardwood flooring is usually kilned down to around 7%. 
The 20% maximum I quoted is simply to ensure there's no risk of rot attack.