Hi,

I'm about to buy around 25 fire extinguishers and some blankets, and 
find that prices differ widely for the same type and size.

Are they fairly generic items, labelled to suit the seller, (e.g. Arco, 
Screwfix), or is there a definite difference in quality where you get 
what you pay for?

I'm looking at 1kg Dry powder and a blanket for 14 kitchens, and 6kg Dry 
powder and 2kg CO2 for 6 hallways.

Regds

-- 
Richard Faulkner

"Richard Faulkner"  wrote in message 
news:2RvG81Dyq+JDFwYb@estate-1.demon.co.uk...

> Hi,
>
> I'm about to buy around 25 fire extinguishers and some blankets, and find 
> that prices differ widely for the same type and size.
>
> Are they fairly generic items, labelled to suit the seller, (e.g. Arco, 
> Screwfix), or is there a definite difference in quality where you get what 
> you pay for?
>
> I'm looking at 1kg Dry powder and a blanket for 14 kitchens, and 6kg Dry 
> powder and 2kg CO2 for 6 hallways.


If you need that many, you probably also will need them maintained. In that 
case, it is far better to go to a company that supplies and maintains the 
extinguishers for an annual fee.

Colin Bignell

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 14:07:10 +0100, "nightjar" <nightjar@<insert my surname
here>.uk.com> wrote:

| 
| "Richard Faulkner"  wrote in message 
| news:2RvG81Dyq+JDFwYb@estate-1.demon.co.uk...
| > Hi,
| >
| > I'm about to buy around 25 fire extinguishers and some blankets, and find 
| > that prices differ widely for the same type and size.
| >
| > Are they fairly generic items, labelled to suit the seller, (e.g. Arco, 
| > Screwfix), or is there a definite difference in quality where you get what 
| > you pay for?
| >
| > I'm looking at 1kg Dry powder and a blanket for 14 kitchens, and 6kg Dry 
| > powder and 2kg CO2 for 6 hallways.
| 
| If you need that many, you probably also will need them maintained. In that 
| case, it is far better to go to a company that supplies and maintains the 
| extinguishers for an annual fee.

Have you had the Fire Brigade round to inspect the premises?  You probably
need to for that big a job.   If the Fire prevention Officers demand a
different type you are wasting your money.

Dry powder fire extinguishers need  servicing every 10 years last time I
looked.   One might as well throw them away after 10 years.
-- 
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> 
"Intelligent Design?" my knees say *not*.
"Intelligent Design?" my back says *not*.

> Are they fairly generic items, labelled to suit the seller, (e.g. Arco,
> Screwfix), or is there a definite difference in quality where you get
> what you pay for?


They all have to be approved. I've bought cheapies in the past and they've
appeared to have been of excellent quality. Not from the following company,
but at similar prices.

http://www.firesafetywarehouse.co.uk/index.php?cPath=206


> I'm looking at 1kg Dry powder and a blanket for 14 kitchens, and 6kg Dry
> powder and 2kg CO2 for 6 hallways.


Your main problem is making sure you can find someone to sign them off
yearly without requiring you to buy their own overpriced stock. I'd go for
bigger than 1kg for a communal kitchen, even if the statutory requirement is
less. I've got a 6kg in mine. 1kg is just for show and will barely
extinguish a waste paper basket. Don't skimp on blanket size. 1.2m is vastly
easier to use than 1.0m. 1.8m will put out a person pretty quick, too,
although might start getting a little unwieldy.

Christian.

nightjar wrote:


> If you need that many, you probably also will need them maintained. In that
> case, it is far better to go to a company that supplies and maintains the
> extinguishers for an annual fee.


Extincteur maintenance is a terrible rip-off. They're unserviceable
these days anyway, so it's simply a budgeting exercise in periodic
replacement of any failures. Look at the prices, but simply bulk buying
cheap retail extinguishers, doing your own testing cycle and
maintaining by replacement is much cheaper.

Richard Faulkner wrote:

> I'm about to buy around 25 fire extinguishers and some blankets, and 
> find that prices differ widely for the same type and size.
> Are they fairly generic items, labelled to suit the seller, (e.g. Arco, 
> Screwfix), or is there a definite difference in quality where you get 
> what you pay for?


They should all comply with BS. But as they require periodic 
inspection/testing you should check that you have a local firm who will 
do that on extinguishers they have not themselves supplied.


> I'm looking at 1kg Dry powder and a blanket for 14 kitchens, and 6kg Dry 
> powder and 2kg CO2 for 6 hallways.


Are these actually required by HMO or similar licence? If not you might 
be better simply banning chip pans, smoking, and candles among the 
tenants. Or fitting sprinklers. Unless the occupants are trained in how 
to use the extinguishers, they're worse than useless (in that they can 
delay someone's escape).

Owain

Dave Fawthrop wrote:

> | "Richard Faulkner" wrote...
> | > I'm looking at 1kg Dry powder and a blanket for 14 kitchens, and 6kg Dry 
> | > powder and 2kg CO2 for 6 hallways.

> Have you had the Fire Brigade round to inspect the premises?  You probably
> need to for that big a job.


Sprolly lets.

In message <432825e7$0$12176$ed9e5944@reading.news.pipex.net>, Christian 
McArdle  writes

>> Are they fairly generic items, labelled to suit the seller, (e.g. Arco,
>> Screwfix), or is there a definite difference in quality where you get
>> what you pay for?
>
>They all have to be approved. I've bought cheapies in the past and they've
>appeared to have been of excellent quality. Not from the following company,
>but at similar prices.
>
>http://www.firesafetywarehouse.co.uk/index.php?cPath=206
>


I was considering these.


>> I'm looking at 1kg Dry powder and a blanket for 14 kitchens, and 6kg Dry
>> powder and 2kg CO2 for 6 hallways.
>
>Your main problem is making sure you can find someone to sign them off
>yearly without requiring you to buy their own overpriced stock. I'd go for
>bigger than 1kg for a communal kitchen, even if the statutory requirement is
>less.

The flats are all self contained, but I take your point.


> I've got a 6kg in mine. 1kg is just for show and will barely
>extinguish a waste paper basket. Don't skimp on blanket size. 1.2m is vastly
>easier to use than 1.0m. 1.8m will put out a person pretty quick, too,
>although might start getting a little unwieldy.
>

OK

-- 
Richard Faulkner

In message , Owain 
 writes

>Richard Faulkner wrote:
>> I'm about to buy around 25 fire extinguishers and some blankets, and 
>>find that prices differ widely for the same type and size.
>> Are they fairly generic items, labelled to suit the seller, (e.g. 
>>Arco, Screwfix), or is there a definite difference in quality where 
>>you get  what you pay for?
>
>They should all comply with BS. But as they require periodic 
>inspection/testing you should check that you have a local firm who will 
>do that on extinguishers they have not themselves supplied.
>
>> I'm looking at 1kg Dry powder and a blanket for 14 kitchens, and 6kg 
>>Dry  powder and 2kg CO2 for 6 hallways.
>
>Are these actually required by HMO or similar licence?


They will be soon. I've got hard wired smoke detection and alarm 
systems, but will soon be having a "risk assessment" by a council 
employee, and I am sure that fire extinguishers will be necessary to 
keep him quiet.


> If not you might be better simply banning chip pans, smoking, and 
>candles among the tenants. Or fitting sprinklers. Unless the occupants 
>are trained in how to use the extinguishers, they're worse than useless 
>(in that they can delay someone's escape).


Agreed - but I dont make the rules.

-- 
Richard Faulkner

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:17:38 +0100, Richard Faulkner
 wrote:


>Hi,
>
>I'm about to buy around 25 fire extinguishers and some blankets, and 
>find that prices differ widely for the same type and size.
>
>Are they fairly generic items, labelled to suit the seller, (e.g. Arco, 
>Screwfix), or is there a definite difference in quality where you get 
>what you pay for?
>
>I'm looking at 1kg Dry powder and a blanket for 14 kitchens, and 6kg Dry 
>powder and 2kg CO2 for 6 hallways.


Hi,

I got some 1kg ones for 5 ea from Lidl the other day, but for
hallways where they are bigger and may need to aid escape, I'd have
thought it better and cheaper in the long run to get refillable ones
with a gauge.

cheers,
Pete.

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:17:38 +0100, Richard Faulkner
 wrote:



>I'm looking at 1kg Dry powder and a blanket for 14 kitchens, and 6kg Dry 
>powder and 2kg CO2 for 6 hallways.


Anyone putting a dry powder extinguisher in a kitchen should locked
in a kitchen with a pan of boiling oil and made to use the
extinguisher on it.  In the unlikely event of there being any
survivors they should be shot.  It is an act of folly.

For kitchens only Class F extinguishers should be used.  For all
other locations AFFF are the best general purpose extinguishers.  CO2
is of very limited use as is dry powder as both suffer badly from
flashback and are fairly ineffective on most domestic (Class A -
ordinary combustible solids) fires. 





-- 
Peter Parry.   
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

In message <2RvG81Dyq+JDFwYb@estate-1.demon.co.uk>, Richard Faulkner 
 writes

>Hi,
>
>I'm about to buy around 25 fire extinguishers and some blankets, and 
>find that prices differ widely for the same type and size.
>
>Are they fairly generic items, labelled to suit the seller, (e.g. Arco, 
>Screwfix), or is there a definite difference in quality where you get 
>what you pay for?
>
>I'm looking at 1kg Dry powder and a blanket for 14 kitchens, and 6kg 
>Dry powder and 2kg CO2 for 6 hallways.
>

Phone your local fire officer up [1] and see what he has to say. He'll 
be able to advise you as to what you need for your requirement (you 
haven't actually given much in the way of details - e.g. private, 
rented, communal dwellings, work etc.)

If you buy kit that is not up to their minimum requirement, then you've 
wasted your money

At work, I have a contract with a local firm who maintain my fire 
extinguishers - it costs about 60 / year + the cost of refilling them 
when they go out of date, which also means that you can discharge them 
when they need refilling. This has two functions
a) it's fun and
b) there's quite a difference between reading the instructions and 
actually doing it

There is also the point that contracting it out moves the responsibility 
from you to someone else in the event that a court was to find that the 
fire protection was not adequate

[1] Why do people never think of the obvious

-- 
geoff

In message , 
dingbat@codesmiths.com writes

>nightjar wrote:
>
>> If you need that many, you probably also will need them maintained. In that
>> case, it is far better to go to a company that supplies and maintains the
>> extinguishers for an annual fee.
>
>Extincteur maintenance is a terrible rip-off.


I disagree


>They're unserviceable
>these days anyway,

Rubbish

>so it's simply a budgeting exercise in periodic
>replacement of any failures. Look at the prices, but simply bulk buying
>cheap retail extinguishers, doing your own testing cycle and
>maintaining by replacement is much cheaper.


.... And leaves you liable in the event that you were prosecuted because 
your fire protection wasn't adequate


>


-- 
geoff

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:48:56 GMT, raden  wrote:


>>Extincteur maintenance is a terrible rip-off.
>
>I disagree


60/year ?  You can _buy_ several extinguishers for that.


>>They're unserviceable
>>these days anyway,
>
>Rubbish


Replacement cost is less than refill cost.


>... And leaves you liable in the event that you were prosecuted because 
>your fire protection wasn't adequate


So fit adequate protection. It's not rocket science to do that.

wrote in message 
news:1126704941.441707.80200@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> nightjar wrote:
>
>> If you need that many, you probably also will need them maintained. In 
>> that
>> case, it is far better to go to a company that supplies and maintains the
>> extinguishers for an annual fee.
>
> Extincteur maintenance is a terrible rip-off.


Well, I wouldn't go to Chubb.


> They're unserviceable
> these days anyway, so it's simply a budgeting exercise in periodic
> replacement of any failures.


That is not true of the ones in my factories.


> Look at the prices, but simply bulk buying
> cheap retail extinguishers, doing your own testing cycle and
> maintaining by replacement is much cheaper.


I have not found that to be true. Also, the DIY route makes it much more 
difficult to prove compliance with any fire safety regulations that apply.

Colin Bignell

In message , Andy Dingley 
 writes

>On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:48:56 GMT, raden  wrote:
>
>>>Extincteur maintenance is a terrible rip-off.
>>
>>I disagree
>
>60/year ?  You can _buy_ several extinguishers for that.


Proper full sized ones ?


>
>>>They're unserviceable
>>>these days anyway,
>>
>>Rubbish
>
>Replacement cost is less than refill cost.


That's not the same

Again for full sized proper kit ?


>
>>... And leaves you liable in the event that you were prosecuted because
>>your fire protection wasn't adequate
>
>So fit adequate protection. It's not rocket science to do that.


But whatever you do, you still have to satisfy the FCO


-- 
geoff

>>60/year ?  You can _buy_ several extinguishers for that.
>
> Proper full sized ones ?


60 quid inc VAT gets you 2 full size extinguishers. Choose from 9l AFFF, 9l
water or 9kg ABC powder, all around 27+VAT each. CO2 is more expensive,
33+VAT for 2kg.


> But whatever you do, you still have to satisfy the FCO


They should accept a new one for a year or two, whatever the service
interval is these days.

Christian.

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 22:48:55 +0100, raden  wrote:


> At work, I have a contract with a local firm who maintain my fire  
> extinguishers - it costs about 60 / year + the cost of refilling them  
> when they go out of date, which also means that you can discharge them  
> when they need refilling. This has two functions
> a) it's fun and
> b) there's quite a difference between reading the instructions and  
> actually doing it


Absolutely. I was put on a fire extinguisher course at work and one of the  
first surprises was how much noise CO2 extinguishers made and how short a  
time they lasted. I am entirely better prepared to attempt firefighting.  
The first step is to raise the alarm, and call in the cavalry. In my  
organisation this 'phone call is made by the switchboard. Then the other  
fire wardens will evacuate the building while whoever set off the alarm  
asseses the situation. Larger than a filing cabinet, no reasonable chance.  
If the first extinguisher fails to put the flames out it is time to make  
an orderly exit and shut the doors. Even an ordinary domestic door will  
contain a fire for some time, and more importantly the smoke. Also it  
should minimise the oxygen available to the fire. The smoke can hamper  
evacuation and the Fire Brigade actually like to see where they are going  
when they arrive.

Better than that, I got to spend an afternoon letting off fire  
extinguishers with management permission.

John Schmitt

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

dingbat@codesmiths.com wrote:

> nightjar wrote:
>
> > If you need that many, you probably also will need them maintained. In that
> > case, it is far better to go to a company that supplies and maintains the
> > extinguishers for an annual fee.
>
> Extincteur maintenance is a terrible rip-off.


I have grave misgivings about the antics of a national security company
(no names, no libel suits) which maintains the extinguishers both at my
place of work and my church. At each visit they find several
extinguishers which need replacing, apparently because the powder
settles. As if this weren't expensive enough, they always manage to
find others that have "worn parts" (how?), or new places that need
extinguishers (which will have to be replaced in n years time...).

Moreover, there are always "new regs" which involve expense, like
pretty glow-in-the-dark signs whose glue is so bad that they fall off
the wall in a few months. Church members are now coming to dread the
annual visit which stings us for about a grand. I have deep suspicions
that the engineers are on commission or under instructions to sell. But
their methods seem highly suspect. The person who meets them at the
church cannot be expected to know whether the new signs are really
required or find out what a reasonable price is with the engineer
hovering over them making worrying remarks about safety. A couple of
years ago they appeared without an appointment and nobbled a teenage
cleaner, getting her to sign for the work. We got a partial refund on
protesting that she wasn't authorised to approve it, but I'm sure
others just pay up.

If it were up to me, I would "self-maintain" them by buying cheap
replacements every now and then, but I suspect the insurance company,
safety inspector, and/or fire brigade wouldn't stand for that.

We did have a Fire Brigade inspection a few years ago. They told us we
mustn't lock the front doors of the church. This was of great value to
the tealeaf who walked off with the PA system through the front door
which was only bolted on the inside.

Chris

In article ,  
wrote:

> I have grave misgivings about the antics of a national security
> company (no names, no libel suits) which maintains the extinguishers
> both at my place of work and my church. At each visit they find several
> extinguishers which need replacing, apparently because the powder
> settles. As if this weren't expensive enough, they always manage to
> find others that have "worn parts" (how?), or new places that need
> extinguishers (which will have to be replaced in n years time...).


We feel the same way at our church. If we decided to give up the annual 
visit and something then went wrong we would be put in a somewhat 
indefensible position, morally if not legally. And then you can't say to 
much when you are told that a water filled extinguisher has corroded 
internally and needs replacing for 180, Screwfix price 60. "Ah but is 
the quality the same" would no doubt be the response ...

-- 
Tony Bryer SDA UK  'Software to build on'  http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

> when you are told that a water filled extinguisher has corroded
> internally and needs replacing for 180, Screwfix price 60. "Ah but is
> the quality the same" would no doubt be the response ...


Your response is that it meets BSxxxx and, therefore, must be regarded as
suitable for the purpose. Indeed, my experience of cheapie extinguishers is
that they feel of very high quality. I would much prefer a 1 year old
cheapie to a 10 year old Chubb, covered in half peeled off labels from long
defunct maintenance companies. I would be happy with either, though.

Christian.

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:21:12 +0100,  wrote:


> I have grave misgivings about the antics of a national security company
> (no names, no libel suits) which maintains the extinguishers both at my
> place of work and my church. At each visit they find several
> extinguishers which need replacing, apparently because the powder
> settles. As if this weren't expensive enough, they always manage to
> find others that have "worn parts" (how?), or new places that need
> extinguishers (which will have to be replaced in n years time...).


There are anti-caking agents in the powder, sodium bicarbonate, normally  
something like silica fume. In a sealed container, their lifetime ought to  
be measurable in decades. Occasional inversion of the extinguishers should  
keep the powder mobile. Using one of this type of extinguisher creates a  
terrible mess. Thermodynamically, water is probably the perfect  
extinguishing agent for most fires. Massive specific heat and large  
enthalpy of vaporisation are where the answer lies, plus exclusion of  
available oxygen. It is also available and inexpensive. Various bodies of  
water are maintained in England under Civil Defence regulations. Should  
the mains fail (and this would indicate a very serious emergency) the Fire  
Brigade can pump out of these sources of water. The Hampstead ponds and  
the lake at Trent Park are two I know of, but there must be thousands  
dotted around the mainland.

John Schmitt

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

"Tony Bryer"  wrote in message 
news:VA.0000339f.008b7325@delme.sda.co.uk...

> ...And then you can't say to
> much when you are told that a water filled extinguisher has corroded
> internally and needs replacing for 180, ...


You can change your supplier to someone who charges sensible prices, 
although, if it who I think it is, you will also be on a five year contract.

Colin Bignell

In article ,
	"John Schmitt"  writes:

>
>There are anti-caking agents in the powder, sodium bicarbonate, normally  
>something like silica fume. In a sealed container, their lifetime ought to  
>be measurable in decades. Occasional inversion of the extinguishers should  
>keep the powder mobile. Using one of this type of extinguisher creates a  
>terrible mess.


It destroys printed circuit boards too -- within a few days of
exposure, the board has corroded to pieces.


> Thermodynamically, water is probably the perfect  
>extinguishing agent for most fires. Massive specific heat and large  
>enthalpy of vaporisation are where the answer lies, plus exclusion of  
>available oxygen.


Where you have M's of computer equipment which you would rather
not destroy due to a small fire or accidental discharge, there are
some quite clever extinguishing gas systems such as halon (no new
gas production now), argon, FM200 (breaks down into fire extinguishing
components only when heated, and pretty harmless otherwise), etc.

-- 
Andrew Gabriel

In article ,
	raden  writes:

>At work, I have a contract with a local firm who maintain my fire 
>extinguishers - it costs about 60 / year + the cost of refilling them 
>when they go out of date, which also means that you can discharge them 
>when they need refilling. This has two functions
>a) it's fun and
>b) there's quite a difference between reading the instructions and 
>actually doing it


Indeed. At a previous company, I would grab some unsuspecting
employee and get them to set off the extinguishers which were
in any case due for refills. Likewise, for fire drills and
alarm tests, always get a different employee to actually smash
one of the break glass units, at which point they will discover
there's no glass and there's no chance of cutting themselves,
which often comes as a big surprise. (We did have one case of
someone who took their shoe off to wallop the thing, and smashed
all the casing to pieces though;-)

If you ever get the opportunity to go on a fire training course,
do jump at the chance. I've done 3 serious ones for different
employers which involved practical work, and they were great fun
and very educational. If you haven't been trained in using fire
extinguishers, I would suggest you don't even bother trying to
use one for real unless your life depends on it. That moment when
you might want to do so is not the moment to start reading the
instructions on how to use it, and neither is it a good idea to
attempt to use it without knowing what you're doing -- you could
injure yourself or others and make it harder to escape, not to
mention wasting precious seconds.

-- 
Andrew Gabriel