It seems since the advent of  'Part P' that most electrical work done as DIY
will require testing / certification by a qualified electrician.

The Part P document contains copies of model forms (of Certification) which
contain the words, "........design, construction, inspection and testing of
the work."

Since DIY work will not have been designed or constructed by the qualified
electrician employed to do the final testing how extensive and thorough is
the testing likely to be?

And what would be a fair and reasonable cost for such testing? (West
Midlands).

Any advice or information from anybody with experience of this new minefield
very welcome!

Tia,

Cic.

In article <MwkVe.1679$Kk3.1554@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
	"Cicero"  writes:

> It seems since the advent of  'Part P' that most electrical work done as DIY
> will require testing / certification by a qualified electrician.
> 
> The Part P document contains copies of model forms (of Certification) which
> contain the words, "........design, construction, inspection and testing of
> the work."
> 
> Since DIY work will not have been designed or constructed by the qualified
> electrician employed to do the final testing how extensive and thorough is
> the testing likely to be?
> 
> And what would be a fair and reasonable cost for such testing? (West
> Midlands).


It's not your problem -- you just do the building notice application.
The council is responsible for testing it (or subcontracting the testing,
and it will probably cost them more than the building notice costs you).

-- 
Andrew Gabriel

On 12 Sep 2005 19:44:27 GMT, andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:


>In article <MwkVe.1679$Kk3.1554@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
>	"Cicero"  writes:
>> It seems since the advent of  'Part P' that most electrical work done as DIY
>> will require testing / certification by a qualified electrician.
>> 
>> The Part P document contains copies of model forms (of Certification) which
>> contain the words, "........design, construction, inspection and testing of
>> the work."
>> 
>> Since DIY work will not have been designed or constructed by the qualified
>> electrician employed to do the final testing how extensive and thorough is
>> the testing likely to be?
>> 
>> And what would be a fair and reasonable cost for such testing? (West
>> Midlands).
>
>It's not your problem -- you just do the building notice application.
>The council is responsible for testing it (or subcontracting the testing,
>and it will probably cost them more than the building notice costs you).


So any competent person can do the work? (ie is allowed to?). I read the
occasional post here about the new "Prescott" regulations and it seems only he
knows who is allowed to do what where afa electrical work in the home is
concerned. This is very worrying as Precott doesn't even know how to speak
properly, in a manner of speaking, so to say, if you see what I mean. Which is
quite remarkable for a politician. Has he got 16thEd, CGLI 2391, BS 7671? Never
mind, I'm sure all the combpys have.
Rant ends. Have a nice day.

In article ,
	dave  writes:

> On 12 Sep 2005 19:44:27 GMT, andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
>>It's not your problem -- you just do the building notice application.
>>The council is responsible for testing it (or subcontracting the testing,
>>and it will probably cost them more than the building notice costs you).
> 
> So any competent person can do the work? (ie is allowed to?). I read the


It's up to the council who they employ.
There is no requirement on them employing Part P approved
companies. They can even choose to accept your own testing
if they think you are suitably competent (and has been
reported here, have done so in some cases).

Some councils were claiming that you needed to arrange and
pay for the installation to be tested, but this is incorrect
as the building notice fee is supposed to cover that.
I heard that the ODPM wrote to councils pointing this out
(Hugo Nebula might know more about this).

-- 
Andrew Gabriel

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 07:55:49 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:


> In article ,
> 	dave  writes:
>> On 12 Sep 2005 19:44:27 GMT, andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
>>>It's not your problem -- you just do the building notice application.
>>>The council is responsible for testing it (or subcontracting the testing,
>>>and it will probably cost them more than the building notice costs you).
>> 
>> So any competent person can do the work? (ie is allowed to?). I read the
> 
> It's up to the council who they employ.
> There is no requirement on them employing Part P approved
> companies. They can even choose to accept your own testing
> if they think you are suitably competent (and has been
> reported here, have done so in some cases).
> 
> Some councils were claiming that you needed to arrange and
> pay for the installation to be tested, but this is incorrect
> as the building notice fee is supposed to cover that.
> I heard that the ODPM wrote to councils pointing this out
> (Hugo Nebula might know more about this).


When I phone one of the ones round here about this they told that I will
have to pay additional fees. Unfortunately I hadn't got 'chapter and
verse' to reply back with. 

-- 
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk 
Gas fitting FAQ  http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

> It's not your problem -- you just do the building notice application.
> The council is responsible for testing it (or subcontracting the testing,
> and it will probably cost them more than the building notice costs you).



Just today I spoke to my local building control dept, enquiring about 
the building notice charge for some work that also will involve 
electrical work under Part P. They informed me that if the electrical 
work was not carried out by a 'competent person' then I would have to 
pay for an electrician to do the testing of the electrical work on top 
of the 196 charge for the building notice.
How should I argue the case for the electrical inspection being included 
in the building notice charge, bearing in mind that I don't particularly 
want to piss off the building inspector before I've even started?!

What is your source that states that the council is responsible for the 
testing as part of the building notice submission?

Thanks,
Ben

In article <dg7j18$n2$1$830fa17d@news.demon.co.uk>,
	Ben Willcox  writes:

> Andrew Gabriel wrote:
>> It's not your problem -- you just do the building notice application.
>> The council is responsible for testing it (or subcontracting the testing,
>> and it will probably cost them more than the building notice costs you).
> 
> Just today I spoke to my local building control dept, enquiring about 
> the building notice charge for some work that also will involve 
> electrical work under Part P. They informed me that if the electrical 
> work was not carried out by a 'competent person' then I would have to 
> pay for an electrician to do the testing of the electrical work on top 
> of the 196 charge for the building notice.
> How should I argue the case for the electrical inspection being included 
> in the building notice charge, bearing in mind that I don't particularly 
> want to piss off the building inspector before I've even started?!
> 
> What is your source that states that the council is responsible for the 
> testing as part of the building notice submission?


Well, I didn't have a concrete source, just putting together various
tidbits I had picked up in conversations, but amasingly Google finds
it quite definitively...

From http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/page/odpm_breg_037024.hcsp ...

"There have been reports that some local authorities are asking
 householders to have electrical installation work inspected,
 tested and certificated by someone other than the person carrying
 out the work. Section 33(2) of the Building Act 1984 (which would
 give power to local authorities to require persons carrying out
 building work to carry out such reasonable tests, at the person's
 expense, of or in connection with the work for the purpose of
 enabling local authorities to ascertain whether the work complies
 with the requirements of the Regulations) has not been commenced.
 This means in our opinion that local authorities do not have the
 power to require householders to retain an electrician to test
 and certificate the work in accordance with BS 7671. Local
 authorities which have adopted such a practice should discontinue
 it immediately."

No doubt there, I would say.

-- 
Andrew Gabriel

Andrew Gabriel wrote:


> From http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/page/odpm_breg_037024.hcsp ...
> 
> "There have been reports that some local authorities are asking
>  householders to have electrical installation work inspected,
>  tested and certificated by someone other than the person carrying
>  out the work [...]
>  Local authorities which have adopted such a practice should
>  discontinue it immediately."
> 
> No doubt there, I would say.


Also note the bit further down that page which says:

"Local authorities should ensure that charges for checking full plans 
applications or building notices and carrying out inspections of 
building work, including that relating to Part P, are pre-fixed in their 
charges scheme as required by the Building (Local Authority Charges) 
Regulations 1998. Authorities do not have powers to reassess a fixed 
charge, which they have levied for a particular application or notice, 
during the course of the work."

IOW the building notice fee is the only fee you should have to pay.

-- 
Andy

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

> In article <dg7j18$n2$1$830fa17d@news.demon.co.uk>,
> 	Ben Willcox  writes:
> 
>>What is your source that states that the council is responsible for the 
>>testing as part of the building notice submission?
> 
> 
> Well, I didn't have a concrete source, just putting together various
> tidbits I had picked up in conversations, but amasingly Google finds
> it quite definitively...
> 
> From http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/page/odpm_breg_037024.hcsp ...
> 
> "There have been reports that some local authorities are asking
>  householders to have electrical installation work inspected,
>  tested and certificated by someone other than the person carrying
>  out the work. Section 33(2) of the Building Act 1984 (which would
>  give power to local authorities to require persons carrying out
>  building work to carry out such reasonable tests, at the person's
>  expense, of or in connection with the work for the purpose of
>  enabling local authorities to ascertain whether the work complies
>  with the requirements of the Regulations) has not been commenced.
>  This means in our opinion that local authorities do not have the
>  power to require householders to retain an electrician to test
>  and certificate the work in accordance with BS 7671. Local
>  authorities which have adopted such a practice should discontinue
>  it immediately."
> 
> No doubt there, I would say.


Thanks Andrew, thats exactly the information that I need!

Cheers,
Ben.

"Ben Willcox"  wrote in message
news:dg8kt2$h4j$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...

> Andrew Gabriel wrote:
> > In article <dg7j18$n2$1$830fa17d@news.demon.co.uk>,
> > Ben Willcox  writes:
> >
> >>What is your source that states that the council is responsible for the
> >>testing as part of the building notice submission?
> >
> >
> > Well, I didn't have a concrete source, just putting together various
> > tidbits I had picked up in conversations, but amasingly Google finds
> > it quite definitively...
> >
> > From

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/page/odpm_breg_037024.hcsp
....

> >
> > "There have been reports that some local authorities are asking
> >  householders to have electrical installation work inspected,
> >  tested and certificated by someone other than the person carrying
> >  out the work. Section 33(2) of the Building Act 1984 (which would
> >  give power to local authorities to require persons carrying out
> >  building work to carry out such reasonable tests, at the person's
> >  expense, of or in connection with the work for the purpose of
> >  enabling local authorities to ascertain whether the work complies
> >  with the requirements of the Regulations) has not been commenced.
> >  This means in our opinion that local authorities do not have the
> >  power to require householders to retain an electrician to test
> >  and certificate the work in accordance with BS 7671. Local
> >  authorities which have adopted such a practice should discontinue
> >  it immediately."
> >
> > No doubt there, I would say.
>
> Thanks Andrew, thats exactly the information that I need!
>
> Cheers,
> Ben.


====================
Thanks to everybody for their contributions.

In the light of Andrew Gabriel's reply I asked my local Council for their
views on the matter. What they said largely confirms the information given
in this NG. They stated that I can get an independent electrician to
certificate my work if I want to but this is not obligatory. I would be
responsible for the entire cost of testing and certification.

They stated that I could apply directly to the Council to do the testing
etc.This would mean that they would be obliged to check the work themselves
or appoint an independent electrician to do the checking on their behalf.
The cost for the application would be 70-00 + VAT with no extra cost for
the testing (thus confirming what Andrew Gabriel said).

They also stated that it would be best for me (having already completed the
work) to apply for a 'Regularisation Application'. The  process of testing
and checking would be the same apart from the cost. In this case there is a
'fine' payable for not having the work pre-approved. The cost for this would
be 70-00 BUT no VAT. A 'fine' would be added at a rate of 20% of the cost
of the works up to a value of 1000-00. This partly confirms the information
provided by Ed Sirett, that extra fees are payable  but only for a late
application (Regularisation Application).

I am expecting the application  forms in this morning's post and will check
that I've got the details correct.

In the light of Ben Willcox being asked for 196-00 (mine is 70-00 + VAT)
does anybody know if Councils can set their own rates or is there a fixed
common charge?

Cic.

Cicero wrote:


> I am expecting the application  forms in this morning's post and will check
> that I've got the details correct.
> 
> In the light of Ben Willcox being asked for 196-00 (mine is 70-00 + VAT)
> does anybody know if Councils can set their own rates or is there a fixed
> common charge?


Just to clarify, I was told that this charge varies on a sliding scale 
depending on the estimated cost of the works. The building inspector I 
spoke to said my work (which includes other non-electrical stuff) would 
fall within the 2,000 to 5,000 pound bracket, hence the 196 (inc VAT) 
charge. I would also be interested to know how the charges vary by 
region though... Incidentally I am also in the West Midlands, Telford & 
Wrekin to be precise.

Ben.

The problem I have with all of this is that there appears to be no
method (short of judicial review) of getting the council to meet their
obligation to test or otherwise arrange certification so that a
completion certificate can be issued. My local authority (Swindon) are
quite happy for me to make a BCN application, won't charge me any extra
but I can't get a completion certificate as they have nobody able to
test the work. Therefore whilst I am compliant I am still stuffed if I
try to sell the house since there will be an open building control
notice on file without a completion certificate.

The only way I can find round this (short of ignoring the law - which
is what I've done for some temporary circuits I'm using while carrying
out some structural work) is to get a NAPIT electrician to come and
look at my 1st and 2nd fix and issue an installation certificate under
his part P self certification. It has to be NAPIT as NICEIC refuse to
allow their members to work in this way although it is clear from
conversations I've had with ODPM that they believe this to be perfectly
acceptable.

Incidentally I've also had the ODPM speak and write to Swindon Borough
Council but it doesn't seem to be getting me very far in practical
terms.

Moral is, check that you have a route to a completion certificate
before sending in your BCN.

Fash

"Fash"  wrote in message 
news:1126701372.515022.255650@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> The problem I have with all of this is that there appears to be no
> method (short of judicial review) of getting the council to meet their
> obligation to test or otherwise arrange certification so that a
> completion certificate can be issued. My local authority (Swindon) are
> quite happy for me to make a BCN application, won't charge me any extra
> but I can't get a completion certificate as they have nobody able to
> test the work. Therefore whilst I am compliant I am still stuffed if I
> try to sell the house since there will be an open building control
> notice on file without a completion certificate.
>
> The only way I can find round this (short of ignoring the law - which
> is what I've done for some temporary circuits I'm using while carrying
> out some structural work) is to get a NAPIT electrician to come and
> look at my 1st and 2nd fix and issue an installation certificate under
> his part P self certification. It has to be NAPIT as NICEIC refuse to
> allow their members to work in this way although it is clear from
> conversations I've had with ODPM that they believe this to be perfectly
> acceptable.
>
> Incidentally I've also had the ODPM speak and write to Swindon Borough
> Council but it doesn't seem to be getting me very far in practical
> terms.
>
> Moral is, check that you have a route to a completion certificate
> before sending in your BCN.
>
> Fash
>


Complete house rewire by non-Part P person so I had to go to local council 
and get building control involved. Charged 56.75. Council then get local 
firm of electricians to do an inspection at first fix, then full and final 
test and inspection when job completed. Council gets charged 200 by local 
firm. This is in Preston, Lancashire.

Mogweed.

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:09:33 +0100, Mogweed wrote:


> 
> "Fash"  wrote in message 
> news:1126701372.515022.255650@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> The problem I have with all of this is that there appears to be no
>> method (short of judicial review) of getting the council to meet their
>> obligation to test or otherwise arrange certification so that a
>> completion certificate can be issued. My local authority (Swindon) are
>> quite happy for me to make a BCN application, won't charge me any extra
>> but I can't get a completion certificate as they have nobody able to
>> test the work. Therefore whilst I am compliant I am still stuffed if I
>> try to sell the house since there will be an open building control
>> notice on file without a completion certificate.
>>
>> The only way I can find round this (short of ignoring the law - which
>> is what I've done for some temporary circuits I'm using while carrying
>> out some structural work) is to get a NAPIT electrician to come and
>> look at my 1st and 2nd fix and issue an installation certificate under
>> his part P self certification. It has to be NAPIT as NICEIC refuse to
>> allow their members to work in this way although it is clear from
>> conversations I've had with ODPM that they believe this to be perfectly
>> acceptable.
>>
>> Incidentally I've also had the ODPM speak and write to Swindon Borough
>> Council but it doesn't seem to be getting me very far in practical
>> terms.
>>
>> Moral is, check that you have a route to a completion certificate
>> before sending in your BCN.
>>
>> Fash
>>
> 
> Complete house rewire by non-Part P person so I had to go to local council 
> and get building control involved. Charged 56.75. Council then get local 
> firm of electricians to do an inspection at first fix, then full and final 
> test and inspection when job completed. Council gets charged 200 by local 
> firm. This is in Preston, Lancashire.
> 
> Mogweed.


Looks like it will only be a matter of time before the whole process of
subsidised inspection and testing becomes the norm. With a bit of luck
this could lead to the demise of Part-P. 8-)  More likely a some new or
revised legislation will allow for additional charges. 8-(



-- 
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk 
Gas fitting FAQ  http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

Ed Sirett wrote:

> Looks like it will only be a matter of time before the whole process of
> subsidised inspection and testing becomes the norm. With a bit of luck
> this could lead to the demise of Part-P. 8-)  More likely a some new or
> revised legislation will allow for additional charges. 8-(


At which point it becomes transparent what the purpose of this is. If it 
was 'saftey' then upping the charge forthe test dosn't encourage 
compliance. On the other hand if itis a make work scheme on behalf of 
the electrical mafiosi...

-- 
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

Ben Willcox wrote:

> OK, I contacted my council again, armed with the information on the odpm 
> website kindly pointed out by Andrew. Again they insisted that if the 
> work was not carried out by a competant Part P person, I would have to 
> get it certified by an independant qualified electrician. That is the 
> only option as far as they are concerned, and if the work was not 
> carried out in this manner then they could decide to issue an 
> enforcement notice, where I would have to pay to get everything checked 
> out after the fact.
> They were adamant that they would not issue a building regs completion 
> certificate unless I provided an electrical testing certificate, as above.
> I quoted the statement on the odpm website, and they said they were 
> unaware of this, but will look into it and get back to me. So I will 
> have to wait and see I guess.



Well they did get back to me. Basically what they said was that in 
reference to the part of the document on the odpm website that states 
the building notice fee must be fixed, they are currently revising the 
fees, and very shortly their fees for electrical testing work for a Part 
P application will be 277.63. This is IN ADDITION TO the 193.88 fee 
for the building regs notice for the other parts of the building work.
He suggested that I would probably be better off finding an Electrician 
that would be prepared to check and test my work and issue me with a 
test certificate, and again confirmed that they would only issue the 
building regs completion certificate after seeing the electricians 
certificate (or presumably paying them 277 to do the testing).

So, don't know if other Councils will follow suit, but needless to say I 
shall just go ahead and do the work myself anyway.

Ben.

In article <dgejgi$ame$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>,
	Ben Willcox  writes:

>
>Well they did get back to me. Basically what they said was that in 
>reference to the part of the document on the odpm website that states 
>the building notice fee must be fixed, they are currently revising the 
>fees, and very shortly their fees for electrical testing work for a Part 
>P application will be 277.63. This is IN ADDITION TO the 193.88 fee 
>for the building regs notice for the other parts of the building work.
>He suggested that I would probably be better off finding an Electrician 
>that would be prepared to check and test my work and issue me with a 
>test certificate, and again confirmed that they would only issue the 
>building regs completion certificate after seeing the electricians 
>certificate (or presumably paying them 277 to do the testing).


Well, they aren't allowed to charge an additional fee, and I
thought the BCO fees were capped by the ODPM anyway (at something
around the 100 mark for the lowest price band work). There was
a change in a budget a year or two back though -- I didn't hear
the details but I think it was something along the lines that
councils could now use any profits from their BCO operations to
subsidise other council expenditure, whereas before they weren't
allowed to make a profit on the BCO operations. Might have that
wrong though.


>So, don't know if other Councils will follow suit, but needless to say I 
>shall just go ahead and do the work myself anyway.


-- 
Andrew Gabriel

"Andrew Gabriel"  wrote in message
news:432b2ba8$0$38044$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk...

> In article <dgejgi$ame$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>,
> Ben Willcox  writes:
> >
> >Well they did get back to me. Basically what they said was that in
> >reference to the part of the document on the odpm website that states
> >the building notice fee must be fixed, they are currently revising the
> >fees, and very shortly their fees for electrical testing work for a Part
> >P application will be 277.63. This is IN ADDITION TO the 193.88 fee
> >for the building regs notice for the other parts of the building work.
> >He suggested that I would probably be better off finding an Electrician
> >that would be prepared to check and test my work and issue me with a
> >test certificate, and again confirmed that they would only issue the
> >building regs completion certificate after seeing the electricians
> >certificate (or presumably paying them 277 to do the testing).
>
> Well, they aren't allowed to charge an additional fee, and I
> thought the BCO fees were capped by the ODPM anyway (at something
> around the 100 mark for the lowest price band work). There was
> a change in a budget a year or two back though -- I didn't hear
> the details but I think it was something along the lines that
> councils could now use any profits from their BCO operations to
> subsidise other council expenditure, whereas before they weren't
> allowed to make a profit on the BCO operations. Might have that
> wrong though.
>
> >So, don't know if other Councils will follow suit, but needless to say I
> >shall just go ahead and do the work myself anyway.
>
> -- 
> Andrew Gabriel
>


==================
I finally received the Form and various explanatory notes for
'Regularisation' this morning but I haven't yet had time to digest the
contents. However the cover page of  enclosed booklet, 'Building Consultancy
Charges' bears this reference: 'The Building (Local Authority Charges)
Regulation 1998' - see:

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/page/odpm_breg_026941.hcsp

This may or may not provide relevant answers - but it's worth a quick look
to see if it's relevant to your case.

Cic.