Hi all,

Just wondering if the following is possible. Basically Im thinking
about making some changes to my household electics to accomodate some
recessed LED lights in my patio. Please take a look at the jpeg image
on this web space which will explain the current and proposed
installation.

http://bithir.mine.nu/tim/electrical.jpg

Basically the one of previous owners has wired the existing outside
light off the back of the isoloation switch for the washing machine.
This is (1) on the "current" installation image and you can see the
switch for the external light above it.

Im sure this must be a bodge but they have then wired the outside
electrial socket straight through the wall off the back of the socket
for the washing machine (2).

So what Im proposing to do is as follows: Im looking at having two
circuits for outside lights on the house - one for the wall lights and
another for the recessed patio lights. The latter will be powered by
transformer housed outside in a weather proof box.

Under the proposed heading on the image:

(1) Existing washing machine isolation switch.
(2) Where the actual washing machine plugs in.
(3) Double pole switch which will go to the transformer.
(4) Double pole switch which will go to the wall lights.

For the wall lights I actually want three fixtures so need a safe way
of feeding these off one switch. From advice received on another thread
Im using DP switches so its possible to fully isolate the circuit in
the event of a short.

Is all of this possible or is it a bigger bodge than what I have
currently?

Cheers,

CM.

"Charles Middleton"  wrote in message 
news:1126513912.620911.117880@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Hi all,
>
> Just wondering if the following is possible. Basically Im thinking
> about making some changes to my household electics to accomodate some
> recessed LED lights in my patio. Please take a look at the jpeg image
> on this web space which will explain the current and proposed
> installation.
>
> http://bithir.mine.nu/tim/electrical.jpg


Where is switch 4 in the "current" installation wired to, the input of the 
washing machine switch, or the output (does turning it off isolate the 
outside light?)

I assume that switch 4 in the "current" installation is just a normal light 
switch, not a fused spur?

Is Switch 1 just an isolator, or is it actually a fused spur?

The problem I see herem from the illistrations are this...

The washing machine needs a 13A supply
There is a light switch (Normally rated at 6A) (4 in the "Current" 
installation diagram) connected to the ring main, via either an unfused 
isolator, or a 13A rated spur - this is very BAD!

Can you confirm this is the case?

Sparks...

> Where is switch 4 in the "current" installation wired to, the input of the
> washing machine switch, or the output (does turning it off isolate the
> outside light?)
>
> I assume that switch 4 in the "current" installation is just a normal light
> switch, not a fused spur?
>
> Is Switch 1 just an isolator, or is it actually a fused spur?
>
> The problem I see herem from the illistrations are this...
>
> The washing machine needs a 13A supply
> There is a light switch (Normally rated at 6A) (4 in the "Current"
> installation diagram) connected to the ring main, via either an unfused
> isolator, or a 13A rated spur - this is very BAD!
>
> Can you confirm this is the case?
>
> Sparks...


Switch 4 in the current installation is a standard light switch yes.

Switch 1 is what I would call an isolator - its one with the built in
light to show that its switched on. However the light switch is only
looped out of the back and switch 1 does not have to be on for the
light to work. Plus its not fused!

I can confirm what you are saying is the case so its looks like Ive got
some re-jigging to do. What I forgot to add is that the previous owner
has actually connected the pool pump off the back of the exterior
socket. Like I said it was a bodge. That has now been disconnected.

Perhaps the solution here is to put the new switches I want onto the
ring and ensure they are correctly rated as I understand that is the
real problem here! In the interim Ill disconnect the light until I can
make all of this safe!

On 12 Sep 2005 03:28:54 -0700, "Charles Middleton"
 scrawled:


>Perhaps the solution here is to put the new switches I want onto the
>ring and ensure they are correctly rated as I understand that is the
>real problem here! In the interim Ill disconnect the light until I can
>make all of this safe!


I think the problem here is the lack of fusing. I would be inclined to
make switches 3 and 4 switched fused spurs with 3\5A fuses for the
lighting. 

The other thing is, as you say, that switch 3 is a spur off the ring
and then you've got switch 4 spurred off this, which is a no-no. You
would have to extend the ring up to and between switches 3 and 4 to
get it right.
-- 
Stuart @ SJW Electrical

Please Reply to group

> Switch 4 in the current installation is a standard light switch yes.
>
> Switch 1 is what I would call an isolator - its one with the built in
> light to show that its switched on. However the light switch is only
> looped out of the back and switch 1 does not have to be on for the
> light to work. Plus its not fused!


Here is what I think you should do (I am not a qualified electrician 
though!)...

I am unsure if an isolator for the w/m is OK, I have never seen this, I have 
only seen switched fused spurs used - I would change this for a switched 
fused spur (13A fuse) if it were me.

I would want to add two more spurs into the ring, one for the outside 
lights, and one for the outside socket (so both are independently, easily 
isolated)

So, on the shopping list
2 x Light Switches http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/BG911.html
3 x switched, fused spurs http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/BG950.html
5 x Single back boxes http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/BG901.html
Some 2.5mm cable http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CA2dot5G.html
Some 1.5mm cable http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CA1dot5G.html
Some earth sleeving for the Earths 
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CAGS3slash10.html
A strip of connector block http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TLCON15.html

If you use the new colour cable, then you should stick a sticker on the CU 
stating that both sets of colours are used 
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TLLAB50.html

Turn of the power (obviously!)
Remove the isolator from the ring
in it's place, connect the three new spurs, daisy chained (so one half of 
the ring connects to the first one and the other connects to the last one 
with a loop from the first to second, and another from second to third, all 
in the INPUT terminals of the spurs, using the 2.5mm cable.

Connect one of the spurs to the w/m socket, install a 13A fuse and Label the 
spur as w/m isolator - 13A

Connect another spur to the external socket, install a 13A fuse, and label 
as Outside Socket - 13A

Connect the last remaining spur to two light switches using the 1.5mm cable, 
install a 3A fuse and label it Outside Lights 3A - Either take both cables 
back to the Spur, or daisy chain them (this would probably be easier)

Use the connector block for the Neutrals in the light switches (or used a DP 
switch (more expensive!)

Make sure you sleeve all the exposed earth connections with the correct 
earth sleeving.

If you do not have RCD protection on the ringmain, use two RCD spurs inside 
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CM4904.html for the outside stuff.

Sparks...

Sparks wrote:

> > Switch 4 in the current installation is a standard light switch yes.
> >
> > Switch 1 is what I would call an isolator - its one with the built in
> > light to show that its switched on. However the light switch is only
> > looped out of the back and switch 1 does not have to be on for the
> > light to work. Plus its not fused!
>
> Here is what I think you should do (I am not a qualified electrician
> though!)...


<snip>

Thanks for the interesting info.

Is it not possible I can actually connect the lights directly to the
fused spurs and the use the switches on those to control the lights? If
this is feasible I probably dont want to do it anyway as I really need
to use DP switches for the acutal lights control. Im just trying to
avoid having loads of switches around the kitchen but obviously if
thats whats required thats what Ill have to fit.

Thinking about this further on the ring prior to the curren isolation
switch is a fused spur switch for the boiler. This controls the boiler
directly and there is no additional switch after the fused spur and
before the boiler.

The exterior wall socket will no longer be on the installation as I
intend to reuse the hole to route the cabling for my exterior recessed
patio lights.

Also - in your description isnt light switch 2 technically a spur of a
spur?

Cheers,

CM.

> Thanks for the interesting info.
>
> Is it not possible I can actually connect the lights directly to the
> fused spurs and the use the switches on those to control the lights? If
> this is feasible I probably dont want to do it anyway as I really need
> to use DP switches for the acutal lights control. Im just trying to
> avoid having loads of switches around the kitchen but obviously if
> thats whats required thats what Ill have to fit.


I did think about eliminating the two light switches, but I assumed you 
wanted to control your two lighting circuits independently, if not, then you 
can just switch using the spur switch! (I am fairly sure the spur switch 
will be DP)


> Thinking about this further on the ring prior to the curren isolation
> switch is a fused spur switch for the boiler. This controls the boiler
> directly and there is no additional switch after the fused spur and
> before the boiler.


I this is a DP switched spur, then it is fine, if it is just a fuse without 
a switch, then I think you will find this is against the regs (Unless the 
boiler is then plugged into a socket supplied by the fused spur)


>
> The exterior wall socket will no longer be on the installation as I
> intend to reuse the hole to route the cabling for my exterior recessed
> patio lights.
>
> Also - in your description isnt light switch 2 technically a spur of a
> spur?


Yep, but as this circuit is now a radial, protected by the 3A fuse, you can 
spur of a spur off a spur off a spur etc... (AFAIK)

Sparks...

<snip>

Cheers, I think what I am going to do is to put two switched spurs into
the ring (just checked with TLC and they are DP) and fuse them at 3
amps. Ill then use these to switch the light fittings as well.

Any objections from anyone or does this sound ok?

For the washing machine - presumably the reason that this isnt on a
switched spur is because under the counter there is a plug socket
(switched again) and the washing machine plug itself has a 13 amp fuse?

The intention now is to put this on a fused spur.

Cheers, 

CM.

On 13 Sep 2005 01:16:22 -0700, "Charles Middleton"
 scrawled:


>Cheers, I think what I am going to do is to put two switched spurs into
>the ring (just checked with TLC and they are DP) and fuse them at 3
>amps. Ill then use these to switch the light fittings as well.
>
>Any objections from anyone or does this sound ok?
>

Think that's what I originally suggested you do, so I would say that's
an excellent idea.


>For the washing machine - presumably the reason that this isnt on a
>switched spur is because under the counter there is a plug socket
>(switched again) and the washing machine plug itself has a 13 amp fuse?
>
>The intention now is to put this on a fused spur.
>

I'd leave it as it is, there's no reason it can't be on a DP switch,
it's just that it's more common to see a switched fused spur on
instead. If you think about it, it's no different to spurring off a
ring with a junction box, no fuse there on the spur point and this
washing machine socket is just that, a spur from the ring.
-- 
Stuart @ SJW Electrical

Please Reply to group