I'm fast losing all confidence in National Rail's Journey Planner. In
the space of a couple of hours this morning, starting from
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk
I've had 4 incorrect results.

The first was its failure to offer a trip 09:45 from Kings Cross to
Pitlochry. I was offered 09:35 and 10:15, but the faster 09:45 is
nowhere to be found.

The last was that it failed to find *any*  return trip results for the
trip Pitlochry to East Grinstead on 24th Sep. Yet that's absurd. For
example, it gives two results for 24th Sep, Pitlochry to London, such
as this one:
PITLOCHRY dep 09:24
NEWCASTLE arr 14:36
NEWCASTLE dep 15:00
LONDON KINGS CROSS arr 18:23

.... and there are *many* trains to East Grinstead from Victoria (or
via London Bridge). Changing the start time to 08:00, 09:00, 10:00
still produced the 'No Results' message.

Have others found similar problems? It seems I'll have to revert to
phoning 08457 484950. (Just did so, and the operator - in Bombay - was
fast and helpful.)

-- 
Terry, West Sussex, UK

"Terry Pinnell"  wrote in message
news:491bi19f3jmn322vajngg7gdbve1j4g3q5@4ax.com...

> I'm fast losing all confidence in National Rail's Journey Planner. In
> the space of a couple of hours this morning, starting from
> http://www.nationalrail.co.uk
> I've had 4 incorrect results.
>


Try Traveline Scotland (far more reliable).

www.travelinescotland.com

"Terry Pinnell"  wrote in message 
news:491bi19f3jmn322vajngg7gdbve1j4g3q5@4ax.com...

> I'm fast losing all confidence in National Rail's Journey Planner. In
> the space of a couple of hours this morning, starting from
> http://www.nationalrail.co.uk
> I've had 4 incorrect results.
>
> The first was its failure to offer a trip 09:45 from Kings Cross to
> Pitlochry. I was offered 09:35 and 10:15, but the faster 09:45 is
> nowhere to be found.
>


Well, it works OK for me, but we have to guess when you travelling as I can 
see no 0945 currently. There is one from 24 Sept on Saturdays though and 
Natrail offers that to me OK. Oddly there is no 0935 on this date. As you 
seem to be returning on 24th I assume you are going out prior to this date 
and I cannot see that a 0945 exists.

As for your return journey, if you read Natrail carefully you find on 24th 
Sept:

"London Victoria to East Grinstead will start/terminate at Hurst Green. Road 
replacement transport will operate between Purley and Hurst Green and also 
between Purley and Uckfield in both directions."

I rather think the question is why did Bombay give you incorrect data?

David

Terry Pinnell wrote:

> I'm fast losing all confidence in National Rail's Journey Planner. In
> the space of a couple of hours this morning, starting from
> http://www.nationalrail.co.uk
> I've had 4 incorrect results.


My recommendation would be the superb www.railplanner.com - It's let me
down once in many years of use, whereas I never hear the end of let
downs from nationalrail...

Pretty good going in my book!

Phil

"Jack Taylor"  wrote:


>
>"Terry Pinnell"  wrote in message
>news:491bi19f3jmn322vajngg7gdbve1j4g3q5@4ax.com...
>> I'm fast losing all confidence in National Rail's Journey Planner. In
>> the space of a couple of hours this morning, starting from
>> http://www.nationalrail.co.uk
>> I've had 4 incorrect results.
>>
>
>Try Traveline Scotland (far more reliable).
>
>www.travelinescotland.com
>


Thanks, just been experimenting with that, and it does look promising.
But you may now have seen my post puzzling over the apparently limited
selection of London locations?

-- 
Terry, West Sussex, UK

"David Thornhill"  wrote:


>
>"Terry Pinnell"  wrote in message 
>news:491bi19f3jmn322vajngg7gdbve1j4g3q5@4ax.com...
>> I'm fast losing all confidence in National Rail's Journey Planner. In
>> the space of a couple of hours this morning, starting from
>> http://www.nationalrail.co.uk
>> I've had 4 incorrect results.
>>
>> The first was its failure to offer a trip 09:45 from Kings Cross to
>> Pitlochry. I was offered 09:35 and 10:15, but the faster 09:45 is
>> nowhere to be found.
>>
>
>Well, it works OK for me, but we have to guess when you travelling as I can 
>see no 0945 currently. There is one from 24 Sept on Saturdays though and 
>Natrail offers that to me OK. Oddly there is no 0935 on this date. As you 
>seem to be returning on 24th I assume you are going out prior to this date 
>and I cannot see that a 0945 exists.
>
>As for your return journey, if you read Natrail carefully you find on 24th 
>Sept:
>
>"London Victoria to East Grinstead will start/terminate at Hurst Green. Road 
>replacement transport will operate between Purley and Hurst Green and also 
>between Purley and Uckfield in both directions."
>
>I rather think the question is why did Bombay give you incorrect data?
>
>David 
>

Sorry, forgot to give Outward date. It's 17th Sep, Return on 24th.

Overall journey: East Grinstead to Pitlochry
============================================
German TravelService
--------------------
http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en?ld=212.18&seqnr=2&ident=kb.01731642.1126540124&OK#focus
With a start time of 07:00, this planner flashed up three options:
dep 07:07, arr 15:25, durn 8:18
dep 08:07, arr 17:51, durn 9:44
dep 09:07, arr 17:51, durn 8:44
(all via Kings Cross.)

National Rail
-------------
With an identical search entry, after a longish wait this displayed
"Sorry, the site can't find any trains meeting your request."
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/Timetable_Failed.asp?T2ID=610_200591217517

Traveline Scotland
------------------
With an identical search entry, this briskly offered 5 results, (2
started on the previous night), including the 08:07 but not the 07:07
or 09:07!
http://www.travelinescotland.com/cgi-bin/jpclient.exe

As soon as I have more time I'm going to focus on the London to
Pitlochry leg, as I reckon only that way will I discover what's going
on. Meanwhile, it's already apparent that I muddied the waters a bit
myself. For one thing, the phone operator was apparently referring to
Euston, not Kings Cross.

There is more scope for ambiguity when it comes to station names. For
example, I now see that Traveline Scotland have a 'Kings Cross St
Pancras' entry (the tube station); GermanTravelService use 'London
Kings Cross' for the mainline station. Some care/familiarity will be
needed on my part!

But notwithstanding that, National Rail gets a thumbs down from me so
far for failing to show any trips on 17th! Unless I'm abusing the
facility in some way?

-- 
Terry, West Sussex, UK

"Phil Holbourn"  wrote:


>
>Terry Pinnell wrote:
>> I'm fast losing all confidence in National Rail's Journey Planner. In
>> the space of a couple of hours this morning, starting from
>> http://www.nationalrail.co.uk
>> I've had 4 incorrect results.
>
>My recommendation would be the superb www.railplanner.com - It's let me
>down once in many years of use, whereas I never hear the end of let
>downs from nationalrail...
>
>Pretty good going in my book!
>


Thanks - wish I'd seen your post before my comparative test of those
other 3, posted a few minutes ago! I'll try it soon.

-- 
Terry, West Sussex, UK

"Terry Pinnell"  wrote in message 
news:j18bi1dkmfvldrk5kbk44o05es4frl9l18@4ax.com...

>
> But notwithstanding that, National Rail gets a thumbs down from me so
> far for failing to show any trips on 17th! Unless I'm abusing the
> facility in some way?
>


Again, read Natrail for 17 Sept:

"A rail shuttle service will be in operation London Kings Cross and 
Newcastle. A rail shuttle service will be in operation between Newcastle and 
Edinburgh via Carlisle. Road replacement transport will be in operation 
between Newcastle and Edinburgh via Berwick-upon-Tweed. GNER will not run 
services to/from Glasgow & Motherwell. Road replacement transport will be in 
operation between Edinburgh and Motherwell"

On both days you are travelling there is major engineering work and Natrail 
is correct. It is the other planners which are in error if they report back 
normal service.

David

"David Thornhill"  wrote:


>
>"Terry Pinnell"  wrote in message 
>news:j18bi1dkmfvldrk5kbk44o05es4frl9l18@4ax.com...
>>
>> But notwithstanding that, National Rail gets a thumbs down from me so
>> far for failing to show any trips on 17th! Unless I'm abusing the
>> facility in some way?
>>
>
>Again, read Natrail for 17 Sept:
>
>"A rail shuttle service will be in operation London Kings Cross and 
>Newcastle. A rail shuttle service will be in operation between Newcastle and 
>Edinburgh via Carlisle. Road replacement transport will be in operation 
>between Newcastle and Edinburgh via Berwick-upon-Tweed. GNER will not run 
>services to/from Glasgow & Motherwell. Road replacement transport will be in 
>operation between Edinburgh and Motherwell"
>
>On both days you are travelling there is major engineering work and Natrail 
>is correct. It is the other planners which are in error if they report back 
>normal service.
>
>David 


Aha, thanks, very timely. See the last para of my reply a moment ago
to Jack.

-- 
Terry, West Sussex, UK

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, David Thornhill wrote:


> On both days you are travelling there is major engineering work and 
> Natrail is correct. It is the other planners which are in error if 
> they report back normal service.


OK, so scrub my theory (in this case) that there were no available 
fares for the trips which hafas had shown.

(But it certainly /can/ happen.)

best regards

"Alan J. Flavell"  wrote:


>On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, Terry Pinnell wrote:
>
>> http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en?ld=212.18&seqnr=2&ident=kb.01731642.1126540124&OK#focus
>> With a start time of 07:00, this planner flashed up three options:
>> dep 07:07, arr 15:25, durn 8:18
>> dep 08:07, arr 17:51, durn 9:44
>> dep 09:07, arr 17:51, durn 8:44
>> (all via Kings Cross.)
>> 
>> National Rail
>> -------------
>> With an identical search entry, after a longish wait this displayed
>> "Sorry, the site can't find any trains meeting your request."
>
>I'd surmise that probably none of those routes have a valid fare, so 
>the Notional Rail planner is crossing off the routes one by one and 
>gets left with none.


Hadn't thought about that possible reason; you could well be right.


>Bet if you did it in a couple of stages it could work, but would need 
>more than one ticket.

>> But notwithstanding that, National Rail gets a thumbs down from me so
>> far for failing to show any trips on 17th! 
>
>It doesn't follow.  Was it last year or the year before that I wanted 
>to go from Stafford to Oxford?  Sounds straightforward - there are 
>direct trains - but the planner would have none of it.  The only 
>available walk-up fare was "via Coventry", and no trains went via 
>Coventry at the time I wanted to travel.  So it said nothing doing.  
>I hired a car (but not only for that reason, I admit).


It's a heck of a long way to Pitlochry from here (470 miles?) but I
must say I'm beginning to take that option seriously. I've left it
very late too, of course, so getting a reasonably priced ticket will
be another challenge, even if I can settle confidently on a route!

-- 
Terry, West Sussex, UK

"David Thornhill"  wrote:


>
>"Terry Pinnell"  wrote in message 
>news:j18bi1dkmfvldrk5kbk44o05es4frl9l18@4ax.com...
>>
>> But notwithstanding that, National Rail gets a thumbs down from me so
>> far for failing to show any trips on 17th! Unless I'm abusing the
>> facility in some way?
>>
>
>Again, read Natrail for 17 Sept:
>
>"A rail shuttle service will be in operation London Kings Cross and 
>Newcastle. A rail shuttle service will be in operation between Newcastle and 
>Edinburgh via Carlisle. Road replacement transport will be in operation 
>between Newcastle and Edinburgh via Berwick-upon-Tweed. GNER will not run 
>services to/from Glasgow & Motherwell. Road replacement transport will be in 
>operation between Edinburgh and Motherwell"
>
>On both days you are travelling there is major engineering work and Natrail 
>is correct. It is the other planners which are in error if they report back 
>normal service.
>


OK, on further reflection, that would account for maybe one or two of
the possible routes, but not all of them.

-- 
Terry, West Sussex, UK

"Alan J. Flavell"  wrote:


>On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, David Thornhill wrote:
>
>> On both days you are travelling there is major engineering work and 
>> Natrail is correct. It is the other planners which are in error if 
>> they report back normal service.
>
>OK, so scrub my theory (in this case) that there were no available 
>fares for the trips which hafas had shown.
>
>(But it certainly /can/ happen.)
>
>best regards


Premature to scrub it. I don't see how the engineering work would
affect *all* possible routes?

On the other hand, looking at the 'Common reasons for the site not
offering trains' at
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/Timetable_Failed.asp?T2ID=610_200591217517
I don't see anything that fits. For example, at this stage I've
specified *nothing* about fares. This step is followed by Fares and
Availability. That's when I'd expect to see such additional criteria
applied. *This* step, 'Timetable results', seems confined to what
trains are *running*.

-- 
Terry, West Sussex, UK

"David Thornhill"  wrote:


>
>"Terry Pinnell"  wrote in message 
>news:j18bi1dkmfvldrk5kbk44o05es4frl9l18@4ax.com...
>>
>> But notwithstanding that, National Rail gets a thumbs down from me so
>> far for failing to show any trips on 17th! Unless I'm abusing the
>> facility in some way?
>>
>
>Again, read Natrail for 17 Sept:
>
>"A rail shuttle service will be in operation London Kings Cross and 
>Newcastle. A rail shuttle service will be in operation between Newcastle and 
>Edinburgh via Carlisle. Road replacement transport will be in operation 
>between Newcastle and Edinburgh via Berwick-upon-Tweed. GNER will not run 
>services to/from Glasgow & Motherwell. Road replacement transport will be in 
>operation between Edinburgh and Motherwell"
>
>On both days you are travelling there is major engineering work and Natrail 
>is correct. It is the other planners which are in error if they report back 
>normal service.


Is that quote from this page?
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_bulletins/currentAndFuture.html

When using Journey Planner, for the single outward route only on 17th
Sep, there are no 'incidents' reported for any of the results. Does
that imply that users have to *also* scour the page above for any
dates and routes relevant, to see if that contradicts the timetable? 

-- 
Terry, West Sussex, UK

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, Terry Pinnell wrote:


> On the other hand, looking at the 'Common reasons for the site not
> offering trains' at
> http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/Timetable_Failed.asp?T2ID=610_200591217517
> I don't see anything that fits. For example, at this stage I've
> specified *nothing* about fares. 


OK, having re-tested Stafford to Oxford, using tomorrow 8am as my 
example, it seems you are right about the current NRES planner.

Initially it offers me 5 journey opportunities, but then, when I ask 
for fares, it says there aren't any.

(If I remove the default selection for fastest trains, it *does* find 
fares - these are for trains or connections which detour via 
Coventry.) 


> This step is followed by Fares and Availability. That's when I'd 
> expect to see such additional criteria applied.


So it seems.  Maybe I was confused by Qjump, or some earlier planner
version.

Mind you, there -is- a difference here: if you plan Stafford to Oxford 
for enough days ahead, it *will* come up with virgin value fares for 
the direct trains not via Cov.  But there are NO walk-up fares 
available for those trains, it says.


But, leaving that particular anomaly aside, there are other 
"connections" (discovered for example by Hafas) for which there can 
never be any valid fares.  Because they're not in the routeing guide 
NOR a direct train.  Could it be that some planners toss these out at 
an earlier stage?  I thought I had seen this happening, but now, you 
have me uncertain.

It's all rather confusing, really...

"Terry Pinnell"  wrote in message 
news:i2lbi197q7lob0bpfekb9lr9p76jiurn7s@4ax.com...

>
> When using Journey Planner, for the single outward route only on 17th
> Sep, there are no 'incidents' reported for any of the results. Does
> that imply that users have to *also* scour the page above for any
> dates and routes relevant, to see if that contradicts the timetable?
>


Good point, but I think railway works on theory that the timetable has been 
revised, so really there is no 'incident'. It only becomes worthy of a 
special note if something goes wrong with the revised timetable.

How you communicate revised timetables to potential passengers is often 
discussed at length and I think the industry is always shown to be 
deficient. Although the data is generally there if you search for it, either 
on Natrail or the TOC websites are usually quite good.

That NR gets away with such mass chaos weekend after weekend is a scandal, 
but that's where we are these days. And at least timings are now generally 
known well in advance and not two days before travel. I think you need to 
work on the basis that if doing a long/complex journey on Sat/Sun then you 
will hit engineering work somewhere.

David

Terry Pinnell wrote:

> I'm fast losing all confidence in National Rail's Journey Planner. In
> the space of a couple of hours this morning, starting from
> http://www.nationalrail.co.uk
> I've had 4 incorrect results.
> 
> The first was its failure to offer a trip 09:45 from Kings Cross to
> Pitlochry. I was offered 09:35 and 10:15, but the faster 09:45 is
> nowhere to be found.
> 
> The last was that it failed to find *any*  return trip results for the
> trip Pitlochry to East Grinstead on 24th Sep. Yet that's absurd. For
> example, it gives two results for 24th Sep, Pitlochry to London, such
> as this one:
> PITLOCHRY dep 09:24
> NEWCASTLE arr 14:36
> NEWCASTLE dep 15:00
> LONDON KINGS CROSS arr 18:23
> 
> ... and there are *many* trains to East Grinstead from Victoria (or
> via London Bridge). Changing the start time to 08:00, 09:00, 10:00
> still produced the 'No Results' message.
> 
> Have others found similar problems? It seems I'll have to revert to
> phoning 08457 484950. (Just did so, and the operator - in Bombay - was
> fast and helpful.)
> 


It was playing up this morning for me too. It originally showed a 10:20 
train from Ramsgate to Canterbury, but trying to search to find out 
whether it went via Folkestone & Dover or Canterbury West all failed to 
show this journey up and instead gave me other non existent trains. In 
the end I had to resort to downloading a .pdf timetable (which took ages) !

J-Me

"David Thornhill"  wrote:


>
>"Terry Pinnell"  wrote in message 
>news:i2lbi197q7lob0bpfekb9lr9p76jiurn7s@4ax.com...
>>
>> When using Journey Planner, for the single outward route only on 17th
>> Sep, there are no 'incidents' reported for any of the results. Does
>> that imply that users have to *also* scour the page above for any
>> dates and routes relevant, to see if that contradicts the timetable?
>>
>
>Good point, but I think railway works on theory that the timetable has been 
>revised, so really there is no 'incident'. It only becomes worthy of a 
>special note if something goes wrong with the revised timetable.
>
>How you communicate revised timetables to potential passengers is often 
>discussed at length and I think the industry is always shown to be 
>deficient. Although the data is generally there if you search for it, either 
>on Natrail or the TOC websites are usually quite good.
>
>That NR gets away with such mass chaos weekend after weekend is a scandal, 
>but that's where we are these days. And at least timings are now generally 
>known well in advance and not two days before travel. I think you need to 
>work on the basis that if doing a long/complex journey on Sat/Sun then you 
>will hit engineering work somewhere.
>


Yes, I think you're unfortunately probably right. But it's a surprise
and a great pity that with today's technology National Rail can't get
such vital information onto their databases. The possibility of not
only wasting a lot of cash but also spoiling the start and/or finish
of a planned holiday should arise from genuine out-of-the blue
emergencies/accidents, not planned maintenance.

It's looking more likely that I'll use my car. Mind you, at about
1/litre and at best 30 mpg, I reckon that will cost me about 140 in
fuel!

-- 
Terry, West Sussex, UK

>I'd surmise that probably none of those routes have a valid fare, so
>the Notional Rail planner is crossing off the routes one by one and
>gets left with none.


But surely if engineering work is preventing you using the normal
route, any ticket would be valid via alternative routes? Otherwise how
are you supposed to do your journey? Being forced to pay a higher fare
because you *have* to take a detour would be very morally dubious,
would it not? (But then again, so was the introduction of minimum fares
on the Network Railcard and they still did that....)

Nick