Why were there never clocks on trains? You'd think that before this day
and age people would need to know the time when travelling by train.
Although we have reliable watches and mobile phones now, i have seen a
voyager (i think) display the time, but only the once. If we have
clocks at stations, why not on board the train?

Are there any trains with time displays out there?

GreatWesternSean wrote:


> Are there any trains with time displays out there?


SWT Desiros and refurb 455s have a clock.

"GreatWesternSean"  wrote in message
news:1126529243.501841.17530@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Why were there never clocks on trains? You'd think that before this day
> and age people would need to know the time when travelling by train.
> Although we have reliable watches and mobile phones now, i have seen a
> voyager (i think) display the time, but only the once. If we have
> clocks at stations, why not on board the train?
>
> Are there any trains with time displays out there?
>

Pre-WW2 Pullman Cars had clocks, though they were later removed because of
the cost of keeping them in good repair. The conductor was responsible for
winding the clocks.

Peter

On 12 Sep 2005 05:47:23 -0700, "GreatWesternSean"
 wrote:


>Why were there never clocks on trains? You'd think that before this day
>and age people would need to know the time when travelling by train.
>Although we have reliable watches and mobile phones now, i have seen a
>voyager (i think) display the time, but only the once. If we have
>clocks at stations, why not on board the train?
>
>Are there any trains with time displays out there?


makes it too easy for pax to realise what a crap service they get :o)

>Why were there never clocks on trains? You'd think that before this day
>and age people would need to know the time when travelling by train.


You wonder why there were no clocks on trains?

Why should there be when even drivers weren't required to have a watch while
on duty?  If the drivers didn't need watches, why would the passengers?


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

GreatWesternSean wrote:

> Why were there never clocks on trains? You'd think that before this day
> and age people would need to know the time when travelling by train.
> Although we have reliable watches and mobile phones now, i have seen a
> voyager (i think) display the time, but only the once. If we have
> clocks at stations, why not on board the train?
> 
> Are there any trains with time displays out there?


The cynic in me would say they'd never get them to display the 
right time, unless they had radio-control and were designed to 
cope with having power disconnected frequently. Think about how 
often (IMX) the clocks on National Express clocks just display 
flashing 88:88, or how often other on-train displays give the 
wrong info. (Throughout my journey from Stowmarket to Peterborough 
yesterday I was informed that I was at Ipswich and the service had 
terminated, despite the train having about a dozen passengers on 
and the guard hardly seemed busy..)

GreatWesternSean wrote:

> 
> Are there any trains with time displays out there?


I have seen them in WAGN class 365 units; also on the front of C2C's
units.

-- 
John Ray, London UK.

"Richard Adamfi"  wrote in message
news:1126529629.358727.193660@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

>
> GreatWesternSean wrote:
>
> > Are there any trains with time displays out there?
>
> SWT Desiros and refurb 455s have a clock.


Ssssssh! If HSE find out that, they will declare the clock to be vital
equipment for any passengers on medication, and demand that any train whose
clock isn't working should be taken out of service.

-- 
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7069/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

John Ray wrote:

> GreatWesternSean wrote:
> >
> > Are there any trains with time displays out there?
>
> I have seen them in WAGN class 365 units; also on the front of C2C's
> units.




In the latter case they way they do it is confusing.  The display on
the front will say eg "1625 Shoeburyness", which might be interpreted
as identifying the train as the 1625 to Shoeburyness, although they do
just seem to be clocks.

MIG wrote:

> 
> John Ray wrote:
> >
> > I have seen them in WAGN class 365 units; also on the front of C2C's
> > units.
> 
> In the latter case they way they do it is confusing.  The display on
> the front will say eg "1625 Shoeburyness", which might be interpreted
> as identifying the train as the 1625 to Shoeburyness, although they do
> just seem to be clocks.


It's quite impressive when the train is on time!

-- 
John Ray, London UK.

"GreatWesternSean"  wrote in message
news:1126529243.501841.17530@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Why were there never clocks on trains? You'd think that before this day
> and age people would need to know the time when travelling by train.
> Although we have reliable watches and mobile phones now, i have seen a
> voyager (i think) display the time, but only the once. If we have
> clocks at stations, why not on board the train?
>

Probably because most passengers find they need to carry a reliable watch if
they intend to catch a train. ;-)

From the Appendix to 'Red for Danger' I note that in 1858 the Inspecting
Officers of Railways required clocks to be provided at stations in a
position where they are visible from the line.

Peter

On 12 Sep 2005 05:47:23 -0700, "GreatWesternSean"
 wrote:


>Are there any trains with time displays out there?


Definitely Pendolinos, and probably Voyagers.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

GreatWesternSean wrote:

> Why were there never clocks on trains? You'd think that before this day
> and age people would need to know the time when travelling by train.
> Although we have reliable watches and mobile phones now, i have seen a
> voyager (i think) display the time, but only the once. If we have
> clocks at stations, why not on board the train?
> 
> Are there any trains with time displays out there?
> 


All SWT Desiros display the time on the PIS screens (eg. "19:54 South 
West Trains") when not displaying other information, as do SWT's 170s. 
PIS screens on Pendolino periodically display the current time along 
with scheduled arrival times for stations the train calls at.

It's a useful thing to show, and more trains should. It would also be 
nice to see PIS screen show current speed and outside temperature, 
whcich would be interesting/useful. I believe 
Voyagers/Meridians/Pioneers are capable of showing all of the above, 
just don't.

Philip.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, Neil Williams wrote:


>  wrote:
> 
> >Are there any trains with time displays out there?
> 
> Definitely Pendolinos, and probably Voyagers.


Pendos can also show the scheduled arrival time at stations, as I 
spotted to my confusion when the train in question was already over 
100 minutes late.

There was then a somewhat confused manual announcement about the 
display, saying that the predicted arrival times were [pause] er, 
[pause] er, we'll be making a further announcement shortly.

Digressing a bit...

I was a bit grumpy when I found the compensation for 108 minutes delay 
was based on >60 minutes i.e 25%[1].  Had it been just 13 mins more, 
there'd have been a full refund[1].

[1] of half of the return fare, in my case.

"Roger T."  wrote in message
news:e64b2eccb9f7c7a52a88cd3a8fee08ad@grapevine.islandnet.com...

>
> >Why were there never clocks on trains? You'd think that before this day
> >and age people would need to know the time when travelling by train.
>
> You wonder why there were no clocks on trains?
>
> Why should there be when even drivers weren't required to have a watch
while
> on duty?  If the drivers didn't need watches, why would the passengers?
>


I think you'll find that ( on SWT at least ) drivers ARE required to wear a
watch on duty .

"Philip Hardy"  wrote in message 
news:luqdnSBye5itTLjeSa8jmA@karoo.co.uk...

> GreatWesternSean wrote:
>> Why were there never clocks on trains? You'd think that before this day
>> and age people would need to know the time when travelling by train.
>> Although we have reliable watches and mobile phones now, i have seen a
>> voyager (i think) display the time, but only the once. If we have
>> clocks at stations, why not on board the train?
>>
>> Are there any trains with time displays out there?
>>
>
> All SWT Desiros display the time on the PIS screens (eg. "19:54 South West 
> Trains") when not displaying other information, as do SWT's 170s. PIS 
> screens on Pendolino periodically display the current time along with 
> scheduled arrival times for stations the train calls at.
>
> It's a useful thing to show, and more trains should. It would also be nice 
> to see PIS screen show current speed and outside temperature, whcich would 
> be interesting/useful. I believe Voyagers/Meridians/Pioneers are capable 
> of showing all of the above, just don't.


I have seen the external screen on a Voyager showing the external 
temperature. Somebody just showing off their knowledge of the TMS, I 
presume!

"james matterface"  wrote

> >
> > Why should there be when even drivers weren't required to have a watch
> while
> > on duty?  If the drivers didn't need watches, why would the passengers?
> >
>
> I think you'll find that ( on SWT at least ) drivers ARE required to wear
a
> watch on duty .
>

They are now, but it wasn't always the case. Bill Hoole, a top link driver
at Kings Cross in the 1950s, never used to carry a watch, even after he was
given one as a long service award. One of his firemen said he would always
try to run ahead of time as long as the signalmen and Control would let him.

Peter

"Peter Masson"  wrote in message 
news:dg4o8a$lem$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

>
> "james matterface"  wrote
>> >
>> > Why should there be when even drivers weren't required to have a watch
>> while
>> > on duty?  If the drivers didn't need watches, why would the passengers?
>> >
>>
>> I think you'll find that ( on SWT at least ) drivers ARE required to wear
> a
>> watch on duty .
>>
> They are now, but it wasn't always the case. Bill Hoole, a top link driver
> at Kings Cross in the 1950s, never used to carry a watch, even after he 
> was
> given one as a long service award. One of his firemen said he would always
> try to run ahead of time as long as the signalmen and Control would let 
> him.


Likewise at one time there was no requirement for steam locos to have 
speedometers. It must have taken exceptional skill for drivers to be able to 
judge their speed, especially in the dark. No doubt errors in judging speed 
were partly responsible for some of the speed-related derailments such as 
Shrewsbury and Salisbury.

Philip Hardy wrote:
[snip]

> It would also be
> nice to see PIS screen show current speed and outside temperature,
> whcich would be interesting/useful. I believe
> Voyagers/Meridians/Pioneers are capable of showing all of the above,
> just don't.


I've been on a Voyager a few months back where the speed was shown for
a minute or two, somewhere between Reading and Oxford IIRC. Speed was
112mph I think...

Of course, when limping along with a dead power car they tend not to
display the other end of the speed spectrum!

John Tattersall wrote:


> I have seen the external screen on a Voyager showing the external 
> temperature. Somebody just showing off their knowledge of the TMS, I 
> presume!


The rather plush and spacious new trains running between A Coruna and 
Santiago in NW Spain which I used in July this year show the current 
time, outside temperature and also the speed of the train. Don't know 
what trains they use, but there was so much space on board.

OT, but they appeared to be busily upgrading the line to allow for tilt 
and faster running times, despite there not being that many trains each 
way each day (no more than one every hour or so)!

-- 
Jonathan Stott
Canterbury Weather: http://www.canterburyweather.co.uk/
Reverse my e-mail address to reply by e-mail

John Ray wrote:

> GreatWesternSean wrote:
> >
> > Are there any trains with time displays out there?
>
> I have seen them in WAGN class 365 units; also on the front of C2C's
> units.


Is that the *same* C2C that Joe Patrick allegedly drives for <g>

--
Nathan Whitington <><

"Martin Underwood"  wrote

>
> Likewise at one time there was no requirement for steam locos to have
> speedometers. It must have taken exceptional skill for drivers to be able
to
> judge their speed, especially in the dark. No doubt errors in judging
speed
> were partly responsible for some of the speed-related derailments such as
> Shrewsbury and Salisbury.
>

Not just steam locos - many Southern emus didn't have speedometers. IIRC
there was an occasion in the 1970s when ASLEF threatened to work to rule,
and it was expected that the South Eastern Division suburban service would
be practically non-existent, as the drivers intended to defect all the (EPB)
units for lack of a speedometer.

Peter

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:04:07 +0100, Philip Hardy
 wrote:


>It's a useful thing to show, and more trains should. It would also be 
>nice to see PIS screen show current speed and outside temperature, 
>whcich would be interesting/useful. I believe 
>Voyagers/Meridians/Pioneers are capable of showing all of the above, 
>just don't.


The Pendolinos used to show speed, but it was removed.  I can only
presume it was an embarassment...

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

>> >Why were there never clocks on trains? You'd think that before this day
>> >and age people would need to know the time when travelling by train.
>>
>> You wonder why there were no clocks on trains?
>>
>> Why should there be when even drivers weren't required to have a watch
> while
>> on duty?  If the drivers didn't need watches, why would the passengers?
>>
>
> I think you'll find that ( on SWT at least ) drivers ARE required to wear
> a
> watch on duty .


Probably.  But in the Good Old Days, engine crews were not required to wear
watches.  This is in complete contrast to say North America where the
engineer (driver) fireman, brakemen and Conductor (Guard?), all five train
crew, had to have on them an approved timepiece while on duty.  Time being
vital to the way North America trains were, and to some extent still are
operated.


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:49:09 +0100, "Martin Underwood" 
wrote:


>"Peter Masson"  wrote in message 
>news:dg4o8a$lem$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>
>> "james matterface"  wrote
>>> >
>>> > Why should there be when even drivers weren't required to have a watch
>>> while
>>> > on duty?  If the drivers didn't need watches, why would the passengers?
>>> >
>>>
>>> I think you'll find that ( on SWT at least ) drivers ARE required to wear
>> a
>>> watch on duty .
>>>
>> They are now, but it wasn't always the case. Bill Hoole, a top link driver
>> at Kings Cross in the 1950s, never used to carry a watch, even after he 
>> was
>> given one as a long service award. One of his firemen said he would always
>> try to run ahead of time as long as the signalmen and Control would let 
>> him.
>
>Likewise at one time there was no requirement for steam locos to have 
>speedometers. It must have taken exceptional skill for drivers to be able to 
>judge their speed, especially in the dark. No doubt errors in judging speed 
>were partly responsible for some of the speed-related derailments such as 
>Shrewsbury and Salisbury. 
>


Doncaster 1951 was attributed partially to lack of speedo, and trains
passing over the scissors were causing rail keys (wooden blocks
wedging the rail into the chair) excessive movement and falling out.
It happened while inspectors were looking at the causes after the
incident - they were stood watching a train pass over at a
deliberately faster than allowed speed and the key dropped out right
before their eyes. The conclusion was already ascertained that the
derailed train had exceeded the speed but here was their proof of what
was happening when trains did. PW staff had not been maintaining the
xover and when the key fell out, the wing rail dropped into the gap
forcing the opposite wheels up and over the far rail.

"Tom Cumming"  wrote in message 
news:dg471p$jdq$1@inews.gazeta.pl...

> GreatWesternSean wrote:
>> Why were there never clocks on trains? You'd think that before this day
>> and age people would need to know the time when travelling by train.
>> Although we have reliable watches and mobile phones now, i have seen a
>> voyager (i think) display the time, but only the once. If we have
>> clocks at stations, why not on board the train?
>>
>> Are there any trains with time displays out there?
>
> The cynic in me would say they'd never get them to display the right time, 
> unless they had radio-control and were designed to cope with having power 
> disconnected frequently. Think about how often (IMX) the clocks on 
> National Express clocks just display flashing 88:88, or how often other 
> on-train displays give the wrong info. (Throughout my journey from 
> Stowmarket to Peterborough yesterday I was informed that I was at Ipswich 
> and the service had terminated, despite the train having about a dozen 
> passengers on and the guard hardly seemed busy..)


The answer to that is a 9 Volt backup battery
Been getting them in Clock Radios for years

"Alan J. Flavell"  wrote in message 
news:Pine.LNX.4.62.0509122043170.24717@ppepc56.ph.gla.ac.uk...

> On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, Neil Williams wrote:
>> Definitely Pendolinos, and probably Voyagers.
>
> Pendos can also show the scheduled arrival time at stations, as I
> spotted to my confusion when the train in question was already over
> 100 minutes late.
>
> There was then a somewhat confused manual announcement about the
> display, saying that the predicted arrival times were [pause] er,
> [pause] er, we'll be making a further announcement shortly.
>
> Digressing a bit...
>
> I was a bit grumpy when I found the compensation for 108 minutes delay
> was based on >60 minutes i.e 25%[1].  Had it been just 13 mins more,
> there'd have been a full refund[1].
>
> [1] of half of the return fare, in my case.


I definatley saw arrival predictions on a Voyager a couple of weeks ago.

Train was so early running that we got to Carlisle 25 early then Waverly 10 
Early

The prediction on Leaving Oxenholm was 1 minute late, that was despite it 
getting there 3 early.

I suspect this may be calculated by the computer based on when the train 
manager tells it that its been to a station, this seems to crash quite a bit 
as i was at the shop when the TM was trying to change this after visiting 
Penrith.
Niall

Niall Wallace wrote:


> The prediction on Leaving Oxenholm was 1 minute late, that was despite
> it getting there 3 early. I suspect this may be calculated by the
> computer based on when the train manager tells it that its been to a
> station, this seems to crash quite a bit as i was at the shop when
> the TM was trying to change this after visiting Penrith.


There is also the irony that although it was the railways that caused
time to be standardised, many stations still display their own versions
of what the time is. One notices this in digital photos that include a
station timepiece. I tend to ensure at least once a month that my
cameras are all keeping the right time, and so it's obvious enough when
comparing the picture of the clock with the EXIF info. The platform
digital clocks at Carlisle were a couple of minutes out 13 days ago, but
were much closer to correct 4 days ago, for instance.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:25:46 +0000 (UTC), "Peter Masson"
 wrote:



>They are now, but it wasn't always the case. Bill Hoole, a top link driver
>at Kings Cross in the 1950s, never used to carry a watch, even after he was
>given one as a long service award. One of his firemen said he would always
>try to run ahead of time as long as the signalmen and Control would let him.



The reason was that timekeeping was the job of the guard.  The
driver was supposed to go as fast as he could, observing all speed
limits etc, between stations.  It was the guard's job to make sure
the train didn't leave any station early.

Even in the 1980s (when I was a guard), drivers weren't issued with
watches.  Although most wore one of their own, a few die-hards
refused to.  Guards were issued with pocket watches.

-- 
Bill Hayles
http://www.rossrail.com
md@rossrail.com

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:47:53 +0000 (UTC), "Peter Masson"
 wrote:



>>
>Not just steam locos - many Southern emus didn't have speedometers. IIRC
>there was an occasion in the 1970s when ASLEF threatened to work to rule,
>and it was expected that the South Eastern Division suburban service would
>be practically non-existent, as the drivers intended to defect all the (EPB)
>units for lack of a speedometer.



As a point of pedantry, EPBs did have speedometers, although they
were often faulty.

It was the SUBs and pre-war stock that didn't have them.


-- 
Bill Hayles
http://www.rossrail.com
md@rossrail.com

"Bill Hayles"  wrote in message 
news:nocdi1po079n5ad4209d061isd200h4sj1@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:47:53 +0000 (UTC), "Peter Masson"
>  wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>Not just steam locos - many Southern emus didn't have speedometers. IIRC
>>there was an occasion in the 1970s when ASLEF threatened to work to rule,
>>and it was expected that the South Eastern Division suburban service would
>>be practically non-existent, as the drivers intended to defect all the 
>>(EPB)
>>units for lack of a speedometer.
>
>
> As a point of pedantry, EPBs did have speedometers, although they
> were often faulty.
>
> It was the SUBs and pre-war stock that didn't have them.
>
>
> -- 
> Bill Hayles
> http://www.rossrail.com
> md@rossrail.com
>
>

Happy days. :)
Took a lot to stop a Mary, never had one fail on me.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:36:55 GMT someone who may be Bill Hayles
 wrote this:-


>Even in the 1980s (when I was a guard), drivers weren't issued with
>watches.  Although most wore one of their own, a few die-hards
>refused to.  Guards were issued with pocket watches.


ASLEF's position was that a watch is a tool of the trade that should
be supplied by the employer. ISTR they won the argument around the
time of privatisation.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:34:31 +0100, David Hansen wrote in
, seen in uk.railway:

> On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:36:55 GMT someone who may be Bill Hayles
>  wrote this:-
> 
> >Even in the 1980s (when I was a guard), drivers weren't issued with
> >watches.  Although most wore one of their own, a few die-hards
> >refused to.  Guards were issued with pocket watches.
> 
> ASLEF's position was that a watch is a tool of the trade that should
> be supplied by the employer. ISTR they won the argument around the
> time of privatisation.


Significantly earlier, I think. I'm pretty certain that drivers in my
area were being issued watches in 89 when I started at t'other end, so
perhaps it came in with the 1988 Traincrew Agreement?

-- 
Ross, a.k.a.
Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life)
Hon. Pres., National Soc. for the Encouragement for Cruelty to Dogboxes
Proud to be the target of various trolls, sock puppets and other idiots

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:05:44 +0100 someone who may be Ross
 wrote this:-


>I'm pretty certain that drivers in my
>area were being issued watches in 89 when I started at t'other end, so
>perhaps it came in with the 1988 Traincrew Agreement?


I'm sure you remember better than I do, especially as I only saw
mass media coverage. ISTR the watches were made by Timex (presumably
in Dundee) before "they" closed the place.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

Niall Wallace wrote:

> The answer to that is a 9 Volt backup battery
> Been getting them in Clock Radios for years


I bought a clock radio from Argos yesterday.

Clock radio £3.49
9V battery £3.49

Owain

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 22:27:31 +0100, David Hansen wrote in
, seen in uk.railway:

> On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:05:44 +0100 someone who may be Ross
>  wrote this:-
> 
> >I'm pretty certain that drivers in my
> >area were being issued watches in 89 when I started at t'other end, so
> >perhaps it came in with the 1988 Traincrew Agreement?
> 
> I'm sure you remember better than I do, especially as I only saw
> mass media coverage. ISTR the watches were made by Timex (presumably
> in Dundee) before "they" closed the place.


I'm trying to remember what make wristwatch the guards were issued
before the Timex; Mickey Mouse watches we called them, because they
looked like the sort of thing you give to a child whose past the
'first watch' stage but still not too sure of themselves. 

The Timex watches were much classier, although I don't recall them as
being very good timekeepers. Perhaps I was just unlucky...


<later>
It occurred to me that I'd found a railway watch upstairs. So I've
been and had a look, and the 'Mickey Mouse' watch is a Zeon jobby. 

-- 
Ross, a.k.a.
Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life)
Hon. Pres., National Soc. for the Encouragement for Cruelty to Dogboxes
Proud to be the target of various trolls, sock puppets and other idiots

On 13 Sep 2005 14:47:06 -0700, spuorgelgoog@gowanhill.com wrote:


>9V battery =A33.49


Surely a Tesco Value one would suffice as a backup?  (99p)

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Niall Wallace wrote:

> The answer to that is a 9 Volt backup battery
> Been getting them in Clock Radios for years


Or like the old MK1 EMU's, off the main batteries like the lighting
circuits.

--
Nathan Whitington <><

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:56:18 -0700, "Roger T."
 wrote:

[snip]


> But in the Good Old Days, engine crews were not required to wear
>watches.  This is in complete contrast to say North America where the
>engineer (driver) fireman, brakemen and Conductor (Guard?), all five train
>crew, had to have on them an approved timepiece while on duty.  Time being
>vital to the way North America trains were, and to some extent still are
>operated.


I thought calendars were adequate there.

<g, d & r, pdq>

John

-- 
John Ewing
Glaschu / Glasgow
Alba / Scotland