(cross-posted to uk.railway and aus.rail)

I've just been reading the recent issue of "Australian Railway History"
which commemorates the 150th anniversary of railways in the state of
New South Wales.

The first article in this issue, based on reminiscences of passenger
travel in NSW over the past sixty years, claims that non-corridor
compartment stock - often nicknamed "dog-boxes" in Australia -- were
referred to as "express cars" by NSW railwaymen *following British
usage*.

This seems odd. This kind of carriage was generally used in Britain and
elsewhere for local stopping trains and short-distance semi-fast
trains, where the inaccessibility of lavatories and other facilities
wasn't a (serious) issue and where the individual compartment doors
meant that rush-hour commuter trains could be emptied as quickly as
possible. So "Express cars" seems the least likely name for them in
Britain at least.

Has anyone at uk.railway ever come across non-corridor stock being
referred to as "Express" stock? Can anyone in aus.rail confirm that
this was indeed the case in NSW?

My own wild guess is the term "Express cars" in NSW might have been
limited to those "dogboxes" which had been ingeniously fitted out with
basic lavatory facilities for the use of those whose personal needs
were not attuned to the measured pace of long-distance transport in the
days of steam. But I'm probably wrong ...

andrew clarke
canberra

Andrew Clarke wrote:

 > Has anyone at uk.railway ever come across non-corridor stock being
 > referred to as "Express" stock? Can anyone in aus.rail confirm that
 > this was indeed the case in NSW?

Yes, they were referred to as express lavatories in NSW.

 > My own wild guess is the term "Express cars" in NSW might have been
 > limited to those "dogboxes" which had been ingeniously fitted out
 > with basic lavatory facilities...

Why "ingeniously"? Provision of a lavatory was a simple enough matter.
The passenger compartments were separated by the toilet compartments,
access to which was via a lift-up seat in the corner of the passenger
compartment. I don't have a reference to hand, but my recollection is
that the majority of dogboxes in NSW had toilets. No doubt there's
someone here with a copy of the recent coaching stock book to hand who
can clarify this.

mark_newton wrote:

> Andrew Clarke wrote:
>
>  > Has anyone at uk.railway ever come across non-corridor stock being
>  > referred to as "Express" stock? Can anyone in aus.rail confirm that
>  > this was indeed the case in NSW?
>
> Yes, they were referred to as express lavatories in NSW.
>
>  > My own wild guess is the term "Express cars" in NSW might have been
>  > limited to those "dogboxes" which had been ingeniously fitted out
>  > with basic lavatory facilities...
>
> Why "ingeniously"? Provision of a lavatory was a simple enough matter.
> The passenger compartments were separated by the toilet compartments,
> access to which was via a lift-up seat in the corner of the passenger
> compartment. I don't have a reference to hand, but my recollection is
> that the majority of dogboxes in NSW had toilets. No doubt there's
> someone here with a copy of the recent coaching stock book to hand who
> can clarify this.


  I remember riding fron Sydney to Goulburn in a Dog Box Carriage<LFX
Car>in Jan 1968.The train was the 1-10am mixed train ex Sydney hauled
by 4019.
  Jeff

On 12 Sep 2005 01:38:20 -0700, jeffreybounds@hotmail.com wrote:


>
>mark_newton wrote:
>> Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>
>>  > Has anyone at uk.railway ever come across non-corridor stock being
>>  > referred to as "Express" stock? Can anyone in aus.rail confirm that
>>  > this was indeed the case in NSW?
>>
>> Yes, they were referred to as express lavatories in NSW.
>>
>>  > My own wild guess is the term "Express cars" in NSW might have been
>>  > limited to those "dogboxes" which had been ingeniously fitted out
>>  > with basic lavatory facilities...
>>
>> Why "ingeniously"? Provision of a lavatory was a simple enough matter.
>> The passenger compartments were separated by the toilet compartments,
>> access to which was via a lift-up seat in the corner of the passenger
>> compartment. I don't have a reference to hand, but my recollection is
>> that the majority of dogboxes in NSW had toilets. No doubt there's
>> someone here with a copy of the recent coaching stock book to hand who
>> can clarify this.
>
>  I remember riding fron Sydney to Goulburn in a Dog Box Carriage<LFX
>Car>in Jan 1968.The train was the 1-10am mixed train ex Sydney hauled
>by 4019.
>  Jeff


What was it called, Jeff? "The drunks mixed"? Seven hours to go 200kms in a
non-heated compartment through the Southern Highlands in winter. No thank
you. Express Car, my ar...

I've got a photo of the train anyway:

http://www.brownfam.com.au/ROLL85/ROLL85.htm.

See 85-13.

Les Brown

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:47:06 GMT, Les Brown 
wrote:


>>  I remember riding fron Sydney to Goulburn in a Dog Box Carriage<LFX
>>Car>in Jan 1968.The train was the 1-10am mixed train ex Sydney hauled
>>by 4019.
>>  Jeff
>
>What was it called, Jeff? "The drunks mixed"? Seven hours to go 200kms in a
>non-heated compartment through the Southern Highlands in winter. No thank
>you. Express Car, my ar...


Ummmm, since when is Jan classified as "winter"? (In Australia, at
least).

Dave

There are 10 types of people, those who understand binary and those who don't.

mark_newton wrote:

> Andrew Clarke wrote:
>
>  > Has anyone at uk.railway ever come across non-corridor stock being
>  > referred to as "Express" stock? Can anyone in aus.rail confirm that
>  > this was indeed the case in NSW?
>
> Yes, they were referred to as express lavatories in NSW.


Thanks! And it was probably the lavatories that made them suitable for
express work.


>
>  > My own wild guess is the term "Express cars" in NSW might have been
>  > limited to those "dogboxes" which had been ingeniously fitted out
>  > with basic lavatory facilities...
>
> Why "ingeniously"? Provision of a lavatory was a simple enough matter.
> The passenger compartments were separated by the toilet compartments,
> access to which was via a lift-up seat in the corner of the passenger
> compartment.


It took some ingenuity to squeeze a toilet into such a confined space
-- looking at the carriages side-on you wouldn't think there'd be room.
I've never actually ridden in one -- did the compartment extend the
full width of the train, and was there a toilet at each end, accessed
by adjecent compartments?

I think I read somewhere that people went to a good deal of trouble to
avoid sitting on that lift-up seat.


> I don't have a reference to hand, but my recollection is
> that the majority of dogboxes in NSW had toilets. No doubt there's
> someone here with a copy of the recent coaching stock book to hand who
> can clarify this.


I'd imagine the none-lavatory ones would have been restricted to
suburban use and then either scrapped or converted when replaced either
by the "American" bogie stock or by electric trains.

andrew c.

The "Express" cars which were some of which were also referred to as
"Express Lavatory" cars and coded LFX, HCX, CX, BX, BC, AJ etc were
first introduced in the 1890s at a time when most carriages in NSW were
of the compartment type and the Express cars at that time were the most
advanced cars for long distances that the NSWGR had. (Ironiucally the
first open paltform "American" cars were fist used on Suburban trains.)
The design of Express carriages evolved from the stagecoaches which had
passengers in a small compartment.

Trains would make frequent refreshment stops for meals as dining cars
were yet to be thought of and in the first batch of express cars only
some first class compartments and the guards van had toilets. Pasengers
in other compartments would have to use the toilet during stops.

This was also a time when rail was the fasted means of transport and
thus many more people travelled by train. Thus it was cheaper for the
railways (and at that time they could get away with it) to cram
passengers into compartments where they could carry more passengers.

The last Express car was not withdrawan until the early 1980s but the
Official title still remained. Thus it might seem a strange term today
but these carriages were the most advanced for their time.

Thanks
Geoffrey

To further my previous post the following link should tell you more
about these carriages:

http://www.geocities.com/james_mcinerney2000/Dogbox.html

http://www.geocities.com/james_mcinerney2000/LFX.html

Thanks
Geoffrey

Geoffrey wrote:

> To further my previous post the following link should tell you more
> about these carriages:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/james_mcinerney2000/Dogbox.html
>
> http://www.geocities.com/james_mcinerney2000/LFX.html
>
> Thanks
> Geoffrey


Many thanks, Geoffrey -- a picture is worth 1000 words. Those frosted
glass windows between the compartments show how it was done.

andrew c.

The Prussian State Railways had similarly arranged carriages,  with
lavatories between each pair of compartments, around about the start of the
20th. century. These were used on 'express' trains there.
                        Regards,
                                        Bill.

"Andrew Clarke"  wrote in message
news:1126575525.431338.100370@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> Geoffrey wrote:
> > To further my previous post the following link should tell you more
> > about these carriages:
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/james_mcinerney2000/Dogbox.html
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/james_mcinerney2000/LFX.html
> >
> > Thanks
> > Geoffrey
>
> Many thanks, Geoffrey -- a picture is worth 1000 words. Those frosted
> glass windows between the compartments show how it was done.
>
> andrew c.
>

Les Brown wrote:

> On 12 Sep 2005 01:38:20 -0700, jeffreybounds@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >
> >mark_newton wrote:
> >> Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >>
> >>  > Has anyone at uk.railway ever come across non-corridor stock being
> >>  > referred to as "Express" stock? Can anyone in aus.rail confirm that
> >>  > this was indeed the case in NSW?
> >>
> >> Yes, they were referred to as express lavatories in NSW.
> >>
> >>  > My own wild guess is the term "Express cars" in NSW might have been
> >>  > limited to those "dogboxes" which had been ingeniously fitted out
> >>  > with basic lavatory facilities...
> >>
> >> Why "ingeniously"? Provision of a lavatory was a simple enough matter.
> >> The passenger compartments were separated by the toilet compartments,
> >> access to which was via a lift-up seat in the corner of the passenger
> >> compartment. I don't have a reference to hand, but my recollection is
> >> that the majority of dogboxes in NSW had toilets. No doubt there's
> >> someone here with a copy of the recent coaching stock book to hand who
> >> can clarify this.
> >
> >  I remember riding fron Sydney to Goulburn in a Dog Box Carriage<LFX
> >Car>in Jan 1968.The train was the 1-10am mixed train ex Sydney hauled
> >by 4019.
> >  Jeff
>
> What was it called, Jeff? "The drunks mixed"? Seven hours to go 200kms in a
> non-heated compartment through the Southern Highlands in winter. No thank
> you. Express Car, my ar...
>
> I've got a photo of the train anyway:
>
> http://www.brownfam.com.au/ROLL85/ROLL85.htm.
>
> See 85-13.
>
> Les Brown

  Les,you are correct.I only used this train,as it saved me a hotel
bill.I was on a N.S.W.all lines ticket.
  Until 1964,the mixed train ran to Junee,arriving at 1700hrs.Prior to
1955,the train ran to Albury,arriving at 0100hrs the next day.
  By the 1960s the train was hauled by a C38 4-6-2.
  Jeff

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 04:10:18 +1000, Dave Proctor
 wrote:


>On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:47:06 GMT, Les Brown 
>wrote:
>
>>>  I remember riding fron Sydney to Goulburn in a Dog Box Carriage<LFX
>>>Car>in Jan 1968.The train was the 1-10am mixed train ex Sydney hauled
>>>by 4019.
>>>  Jeff
>>
>>What was it called, Jeff? "The drunks mixed"? Seven hours to go 200kms in a
>>non-heated compartment through the Southern Highlands in winter. No thank
>>you. Express Car, my ar...
>
>Ummmm, since when is Jan classified as "winter"? (In Australia, at
>least).
>
>Dave


Hint: It ran all through the year. My photograph of the 1:10 mixed was taken
30/06/69. It was definately winter at the time.

>
>There are 10 types of people, those who understand binary and those who don't.


And there are three types of people who know maths, those that do and that
don't.

Les Brown.

In 1960 I travelled Melbourne - Sydney on a special train to take 
Victorian Scouts to the Sydney Jamboree. We changed trains at Albury at 
Midnight and I remember being discussed that NSW could only provide an 
old fashioned steam loco to haul the train. (Victoria had provided a 
diesel hauled train)We travelled in these coaches with dog boxes 
seperated by toilets. By the time daylight arrived all the water was 
gone as we had discovered that if you threw it out the window it came in 
the compartments behind. - This was on a hot December night so it was 
great fun



Andrew Clarke wrote:

> (cross-posted to uk.railway and aus.rail)
> 
> I've just been reading the recent issue of "Australian Railway History"
> which commemorates the 150th anniversary of railways in the state of
> New South Wales.
> 
> The first article in this issue, based on reminiscences of passenger
> travel in NSW over the past sixty years, claims that non-corridor
> compartment stock - often nicknamed "dog-boxes" in Australia -- were
> referred to as "express cars" by NSW railwaymen *following British
> usage*.
> 
> This seems odd. This kind of carriage was generally used in Britain and
> elsewhere for local stopping trains and short-distance semi-fast
> trains, where the inaccessibility of lavatories and other facilities
> wasn't a (serious) issue and where the individual compartment doors
> meant that rush-hour commuter trains could be emptied as quickly as
> possible. So "Express cars" seems the least likely name for them in
> Britain at least.
> 
> Has anyone at uk.railway ever come across non-corridor stock being
> referred to as "Express" stock? Can anyone in aus.rail confirm that
> this was indeed the case in NSW?
> 
> My own wild guess is the term "Express cars" in NSW might have been
> limited to those "dogboxes" which had been ingeniously fitted out with
> basic lavatory facilities for the use of those whose personal needs
> were not attuned to the measured pace of long-distance transport in the
> days of steam. But I'm probably wrong ...
> 
> andrew clarke
> canberra
> 

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:17:09 GMT, Les Brown 
wrote:


>On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 04:10:18 +1000, Dave Proctor
> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:47:06 GMT, Les Brown 
>>wrote:
>>
>>>>  I remember riding fron Sydney to Goulburn in a Dog Box Carriage<LFX
>>>>Car>in Jan 1968.The train was the 1-10am mixed train ex Sydney hauled
>>>>by 4019.
>>>>  Jeff
>>>
>>>What was it called, Jeff? "The drunks mixed"? Seven hours to go 200kms in a
>>>non-heated compartment through the Southern Highlands in winter. No thank
>>>you. Express Car, my ar...
>>
>>Ummmm, since when is Jan classified as "winter"? (In Australia, at
>>least).
>>
>>Dave
>
>Hint: It ran all through the year. My photograph of the 1:10 mixed was taken
>30/06/69. It was definately winter at the time.


Still, in the the post you were repling to (where it was specifically
stated as "Jan 1968") you replied "in winter". Context needed
there....
Dave

There are 10 types of people, those who understand binary and those who don't.

Dave Proctor wrote:


>>What was it called, Jeff? "The drunks mixed"? Seven hours to go 200kms in a
>>non-heated compartment through the Southern Highlands in winter. No thank
>>you. Express Car, my ar...
>  
> Ummmm, since when is Jan classified as "winter"? (In Australia, at
> least).


Since when is it ever warm on the south at night, even in summer? I 
worked a job to Goulburn one Christmas Eve, left Enfield wearing shorts 
and singlet, every door and window in the van open to let the breeze in 
- by the time I reached Mossy I had the heater and the gas ring going 
flat out, the gaps in every door and window stuffed full of newspaper to 
keep the breeze out, and the remainder of the paper jammed down the 
front of my shirt in a vain attempt to keep warm.

William Pearce wrote:

> The Prussian State Railways had similarly arranged carriages,  with
> lavatories between each pair of compartments, around about the start of the
> 20th. century. These were used on 'express' trains there.
>                         Regards,
>                                         Bill.


That's interesting -- I was wondering if this had been done anywhere
else. A pity British Railways didn't have a few sets for those
long-distance excursion trains they used to run in the 1950s which must
have been torture for families with small children who found themselves
in a crowded non-corridor compartment with no toilet facilities.

The author of the Australian Railway History article -- Neil Brady --
has a bit of an axe to grind about dogboxes, which he puts forward as a
British speciality, when in fact non-corridor compartment stock was
used all over Europe. Similarly he regards the continuing use of
non-bogie passenger stock as symptomatic of British engineers'
reluctance to accept "upstart" American innovations, when in fact
six-wheel carriages could be found on local trains or commuter trains
in (e.g.) Belgium and Germany well into the 1950s, long after their
disappearance from general traffic in the UK. (A copy of Trains
Illustrated from ca. 1952 illustrates an ex-GWR sixwheeler at the end
of a Welsh miner's train, but even that was reported as having been
recently replaced by a bogie vehicle. This particular example had a
cut-out window for the guard and a large old-fashioned motor horn
(complete with giant rubber bulb) which was used to scare sheep off the
line, but that's another story.)

Compartments gave more privacy and were probably easier to (steam) heat
in the days before air-conditioning. Saloon carriages are much more
spacious but give no protection from drunks wandering up and down the
aisles at 2.00am ... I've often thought that the ideal arrangement was
compartment stock with side corridors and of course lavatories, and of
course, heating. I last rode in a side-corridor carriage between Sydney
and Canberra in midwinter some thirty years ago and if I'd been a brass
monkey ...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

>
> Compartments gave more privacy and were probably easier to (steam) heat
> in the days before air-conditioning. Saloon carriages are much more
> spacious but give no protection from drunks wandering up and down the
> aisles at 2.00am ...


And just what protection was there in dog-boxes from drunks landing in your
compartment at 2:00am?? I know which I'd prefer.



I've often thought that the ideal arrangement was

> compartment stock with side corridors and of course lavatories, and of
> course, heating. I last rode in a side-corridor carriage between Sydney
> and Canberra in midwinter some thirty years ago and if I'd been a brass
> monkey ...
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra
>

Coaches with lavatories only accessible from adjacent compartments seem to
have been used on some British railways, I remember reading somewhere, in a
book about British trains, approximate quote 'Even the man who had faced the
wild Matabele in Africa and the ferocious Afghan quailed from asking the old
maiden lady sitting on the seat in front of the lavatory door to rise up so
that he could use the facility'.
                                Regards,
                                                Bill.


"Bruce"  wrote in message
news:4327019A.5070209@yahoo.com...

> In 1960 I travelled Melbourne - Sydney on a special train to take
> Victorian Scouts to the Sydney Jamboree. We changed trains at Albury at
> Midnight and I remember being discussed that NSW could only provide an
> old fashioned steam loco to haul the train. (Victoria had provided a
> diesel hauled train)We travelled in these coaches with dog boxes
> seperated by toilets. By the time daylight arrived all the water was
> gone as we had discovered that if you threw it out the window it came in
> the compartments behind. - This was on a hot December night so it was
> great fun
>
>
>
> Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > (cross-posted to uk.railway and aus.rail)
> >
> > I've just been reading the recent issue of "Australian Railway History"
> > which commemorates the 150th anniversary of railways in the state of
> > New South Wales.
> >
> > The first article in this issue, based on reminiscences of passenger
> > travel in NSW over the past sixty years, claims that non-corridor
> > compartment stock - often nicknamed "dog-boxes" in Australia -- were
> > referred to as "express cars" by NSW railwaymen *following British
> > usage*.
> >
> > This seems odd. This kind of carriage was generally used in Britain and
> > elsewhere for local stopping trains and short-distance semi-fast
> > trains, where the inaccessibility of lavatories and other facilities
> > wasn't a (serious) issue and where the individual compartment doors
> > meant that rush-hour commuter trains could be emptied as quickly as
> > possible. So "Express cars" seems the least likely name for them in
> > Britain at least.
> >
> > Has anyone at uk.railway ever come across non-corridor stock being
> > referred to as "Express" stock? Can anyone in aus.rail confirm that
> > this was indeed the case in NSW?
> >
> > My own wild guess is the term "Express cars" in NSW might have been
> > limited to those "dogboxes" which had been ingeniously fitted out with
> > basic lavatory facilities for the use of those whose personal needs
> > were not attuned to the measured pace of long-distance transport in the
> > days of steam. But I'm probably wrong ...
> >
> > andrew clarke
> > canberra
> >
>

William Pearce wrote:

> Coaches with lavatories only accessible from adjacent compartments seem to
> have been used on some British railways, I remember reading somewhere, in a
> book about British trains, approximate quote 'Even the man who had faced the
> wild Matabele in Africa and the ferocious Afghan quailed from asking the old
> maiden lady sitting on the seat in front of the lavatory door to rise up so
> that he could use the facility'.
>                                 Regards,
>                                                 Bill.


And I doubt that the lavatory walls were soundproofed ...

andrew c.

Bruce wrote:

> By the time daylight arrived all the water was
> gone as we had discovered that if you threw it out the window it came in
> the compartments behind. - This was on a hot December night so it was
> great fun


Can you remember if the lavatory area -- toilet plus washbasin --
extended the whole of the carriage? Or were there two side by side with
a partition?

Regards,

Andrew C.

Walter Gabriel wrote:

 > Can you remember if the lavatory area -- toilet plus washbasin --
 > extended the whole of the carriage? Or were there two side by side
 > with a partition?

The latter, IIRC. Although it is *many* years since I've been in one!

I would have thought it would have made sense to have the one toilet
between two compartments (not that the railways' management always has
alot of sense) , although I suppose the compartments would not be
seperate that way. 

Thanks
Geoffrey

With a car width of eight feet or more, it would be easy to arrange for
two separate lavatory compartments across the car.
                Regards,
                                    Bill.



"Geoffrey"  wrote in message
news:1126753678.704905.73850@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

>
> I would have thought it would have made sense to have the one toilet
> between two compartments (not that the railways' management always has
> alot of sense) , although I suppose the compartments would not be
> seperate that way.
>
> Thanks
> Geoffrey
>

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 11:13:18 +0100, "BH Williams"
 wrote:


>
>"Andrew Clarke"  wrote in message 
>news:1126852720.644756.96550@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> jeffreybounds@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
<snip>
>> Anyone know when and where the last "mixed" ran in the UK? Presumably
>> it was on one of the light lines, like The Mound-Dornoch?
>>
>> Andrew Clarke
>> Canberra
>>
>Far more recent than that!
>Container-carrying sections were attached to the Fishguard boat-trains back 
>in the late 1960s/early 1970s, when I was at school next to the main line in 
>South Wales. In Scotland, mixed trains ran on several lines- those to 
>Mallaig including oil tanks for that town's fishing fleet, whilst there was 
>a later revival when container wagons were attached to trains from 
>Aberdeen/Inverness to Wick.


Some of the old DMUs between Marylebone and Aylesbury used to run with
a GUV or similar hanging off the back at night and ISTR seeing one
towing a tank wagon (presumably carrying diesel) on one occasion.
Another version of "mixed traffic" was carried on the DC line by
loading up one or more passenger compartments on cl501s with mailbags.
-- 
                                                             _______
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |\\   //|
 | Charles Ellson: charles@e11son.demon.co.uk        |      | \\ // |
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |  > <  |
                                                            | // \\ |
                                              Alba gu brath |//___\\|

BH Williams wrote:


> whilst there was
> a later revival when container wagons were attached to trains from
> Aberdeen/Inverness to Wick.


The container wagons were modified with through vacuum pipes, and the
train had special dispensation to run with both air and vacuum brakes
operative - something normally specifically forbidden.

Charles Ellson wrote:


>
> Some of the old DMUs between Marylebone and Aylesbury used to run with
> a GUV or similar hanging off the back at night and ISTR seeing one
> towing a tank wagon (presumably carrying diesel) on one occasion.


Tail traffic (normally vans of various sorts) was pretty common, and
those sections wher eit was permitted, together with maximum loads, was
listed in the sectional appendices.  Your tank wagon may have been a
milk tank.


> Another version of "mixed traffic" was carried on the DC line by
> loading up one or more passenger compartments on cl501s with mailbags.


The Watford DC line mail workings included a special shunting move from
Up to Down at Harrow and Wealdstone.  This was necessitated by the
absence of a platform lift, following the 1952 collision.

DMUs and EMUs used for mail weren't uncommon.  For example, the
'Burnley Mail' from Preston was a DMU in the 1970s.

On 16 Sep 2005 16:26:01 -0700, "Chippy"  wrote:


>Charles Ellson wrote:
>
>>
>> Some of the old DMUs between Marylebone and Aylesbury used to run with
>> a GUV or similar hanging off the back at night and ISTR seeing one
>> towing a tank wagon (presumably carrying diesel) on one occasion.
>
>Tail traffic (normally vans of various sorts) was pretty common, and
>those sections wher eit was permitted, together with maximum loads, was
>listed in the sectional appendices.  Your tank wagon may have been a
>milk tank.
>

Not unless there was something drastically wrong with the cattle near
the oil refinery. ;-) I only saw it once, presumably there was an
immediate need for fuel by something that couldn't travel the length
of the line for more go-juice such as one of the shunters. This would
have been in the late 1960s when anyone suggesting delivery of fuel by
road would probably have been shot without trial.


>> Another version of "mixed traffic" was carried on the DC line by
>> loading up one or more passenger compartments on cl501s with mailbags.
>
>The Watford DC line mail workings included a special shunting move from
>Up to Down at Harrow and Wealdstone.  This was necessitated by the
>absence of a platform lift, following the 1952 collision.
>

That was the two or three times a day dedicated postal/parcels trains.
The services I had in mind where those where space was regularly
commandeered on scheduled passenger services. The Harrow platform
lift(s) only "went missing" in more recent years (replaced by an
elevator/chute ?) - I've got a couple of the enamel signs rescued from
the fire when it was dismantled in the 1970s.
-- 
                                                             _______
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |\\   //|
 | Charles Ellson: charles@e11son.demon.co.uk        |      | \\ // |
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |  > <  |
                                                            | // \\ |
                                              Alba gu brath |//___\\|

On 15 Sep 2005 23:38:40 -0700, "Andrew Clarke"
 wrote:


>jeffreybounds@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>>   Les,you are correct.I only used this train,as it saved me a hotel
>> bill.I was on a N.S.W.all lines ticket.
>>   Until 1964,the mixed train ran to Junee,arriving at 1700hrs.Prior to
>> 1955,the train ran to Albury,arriving at 0100hrs the next day.
>>   By the 1960s the train was hauled by a C38 4-6-2.
>>   Jeff
>
>IIRC the last mixed train in NSW ran in 1982, by which time I suspect
>most of them ran with an empty passenger carriage. Closely related were
>the "goods trains with passenger accommodation" i.e. the brake van had
>a couple of passenger compartments.
>
>Anyone know when and where the last "mixed" ran in the UK? Presumably
>it was on one of the light lines, like The Mound-Dornoch?
>
>Andrew Clarke
>Canberra
>

I'm sure I remember the early morning Barnstaple - Exeter in a mixed
configuration in the mid-1970s.

JohnK

"John F Kappler"  wrote in message
news:432bb3e2.1040562@giganews.nildram.co.uk...

> On 15 Sep 2005 23:38:40 -0700, "Andrew Clarke"
>  wrote:
>
> >Anyone know when and where the last "mixed" ran in the UK? Presumably
> >it was on one of the light lines, like The Mound-Dornoch?
> >
> >Andrew Clarke
> >Canberra
> >
> I'm sure I remember the early morning Barnstaple - Exeter in a mixed
> configuration in the mid-1970s.
>

In the 1970s the early morning train from Dingwall to Kyle was mixed (and
double-headed). One loco brought the mid-morning passenger train back, and
the other headed the return working of the freight during the afternoon.

Peter

"David Bennetts"  wrote in message 
news:3StWe.287$wq1.2611@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
  There's a mixed train still running in NSW about 150 km south of you. 
I'm

> not aware of any running in the UK. Regards> David Bennetts


This NSW one still running is????

Cheers
Peter Cokley

"Peter and Susan"  wrote in message 
news:newscache$88eymi$gaj1$1@elise.onthenet.com.au...

>
> "David Bennetts"  wrote in message 
> news:3StWe.287$wq1.2611@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
>  There's a mixed train still running in NSW about 150 km south of you. I'm
>> not aware of any running in the UK. Regards> David Bennetts
>
> This NSW one still running is????
>
> Cheers
> Peter Cokley

Skitube - it runs up from Bullocks Flat to Blue Cow with a cut down van up 
front to take up supplies, and bring the garbage down.  Used to be an S 
truck, now I believe a cut down MHG.

Regards

David Bennetts

"David Bennetts"  wrote in message 
news:VySWe.586$wq1.12468@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...

>
> "Peter and Susan"  wrote in message 
> news:newscache$88eymi$gaj1$1@elise.onthenet.com.au...
>>
>> "David Bennetts"  wrote in message 
>> news:3StWe.287$wq1.2611@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
>>  There's a mixed train still running in NSW about 150 km south of you. 
>> I'm
>>> not aware of any running in the UK. Regards> David Bennetts
>>
>> This NSW one still running is????
>>
>> Cheers
>> Peter Cokley
> Skitube - it runs up from Bullocks Flat to Blue Cow with a cut down van up 
> front to take up supplies, and bring the garbage down.  Used to be an S 
> truck, now I believe a cut down MHG.> Regards> David Bennetts


Of course, but I forgot all about that one!!!  Sorry but  my mind was 
thinking of the Junee direction!  Thanks for that!

Cheers
Peter Cokley

"Peter Masson"


> In the 1970s the early morning train from Dingwall to Kyle was mixed (and
> double-headed). One loco brought the mid-morning passenger train back, and
> the other headed the return working of the freight during the afternoon.


Double-headed, or two locos in multiple?

There is a difference.


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

In message 
          "Roger T."  wrote:


> 
> "Peter Masson"
> 
> > In the 1970s the early morning train from Dingwall to Kyle was mixed (and
> > double-headed). One loco brought the mid-morning passenger train back,
> > and the other headed the return working of the freight during the
> > afternoon.
..

> 
> Double-headed, or two locos in multiple?
> 
> There is a difference


But irrelevant in this instance as two loco crews were needed for the return
runs.

-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

David Bennetts wrote:

> "Peter and Susan"  wrote in message
> news:newscache$88eymi$gaj1$1@elise.onthenet.com.au...
> >
> > "David Bennetts"  wrote in message
> > news:3StWe.287$wq1.2611@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
> >  There's a mixed train still running in NSW about 150 km south of you. I'm
> >> not aware of any running in the UK. Regards> David Bennetts
> >
> > This NSW one still running is????
> >
> > Cheers
> > Peter Cokley
> Skitube - it runs up from Bullocks Flat to Blue Cow with a cut down van up
> front to take up supplies, and bring the garbage down.  Used to be an S
> truck, now I believe a cut down MHG.
>
> Regards
>
> David Bennetts


I hope it has plenty of footwarmers and doesn't stop and shunt for
twenty minutes halfway up ....

Andrew Clarke

Chippy wrote:

> BH Williams wrote:
>
> > whilst there was
> > a later revival when container wagons were attached to trains from
> > Aberdeen/Inverness to Wick.
>
> The container wagons were modified with through vacuum pipes, and the
> train had special dispensation to run with both air and vacuum brakes
> operative - something normally specifically forbidden.


The old rule -- following the Sonning Cutting collision on the GWR --
was that mixed trains had to be marshalled wth the passenger carriages
at the rear. NSW mixed trains certainly followed this procedure, giving
the patient passenger full benefit of any fragrant livestock wagons
upwind ... Is/was this the case with the Wick/Mallaig trains, and if
the passenger accommodation is at the rear how do they heat it?

Incidentally it might be useful in this discussion to distinguish
between tail traffic (one or two wagons stuck on the back)which
otherwise were operated like passenger trains; and mixed trains, which
were operated like pick-up goods trains, complete with shunting stops.

Andrew C.

"Andrew Clarke"  wrote in message 
news:1126852720.644756.96550@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> jeffreybounds@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>>   Les,you are correct.I only used this train,as it saved me a hotel
>> bill.I was on a N.S.W.all lines ticket.
>>   Until 1964,the mixed train ran to Junee,arriving at 1700hrs.Prior to
>> 1955,the train ran to Albury,arriving at 0100hrs the next day.
>>   By the 1960s the train was hauled by a C38 4-6-2.
>>   Jeff
>
> IIRC the last mixed train in NSW ran in 1982, by which time I suspect
> most of them ran with an empty passenger carriage. Closely related were
> the "goods trains with passenger accommodation" i.e. the brake van had
> a couple of passenger compartments.
>
> Anyone know when and where the last "mixed" ran in the UK? Presumably
> it was on one of the light lines, like The Mound-Dornoch?
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra


Andrew

There's a mixed train still running in NSW about 150 km south of you.   I'm 
not aware of any running in the UK.

Regards

David Bennetts