About 18 months ago there was a thread about the various speeded-up railway 
journey films. I've now found the 1962 Paddington to Birmingham Snow Hill 
available for non-commercial UK use from:-

http://creative.bfi.org.uk/titles/409874

The best quality download is 71MB

--

David

David Morgan  wrote in
message news:432491e2$0$22940$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net...

> About 18 months ago there was a thread about the various speeded-up
railway
> journey films. I've now found the 1962 Paddington to Birmingham Snow Hill
> available for non-commercial UK use from:-
>
> http://creative.bfi.org.uk/titles/409874
>
> The best quality download is 71MB
>
> --
>
> David


A Super 8mm print was on ebay a couple of weeks back.

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 21:22:00 +0100, David Morgan
 wrote:


>About 18 months ago there was a thread about the various speeded-up railway 
>journey films. I've now found the 1962 Paddington to Birmingham Snow Hill 
>available for non-commercial UK use from:-
>
>http://creative.bfi.org.uk/titles/409874
>
>The best quality download is 71MB


heh... the driver looks like a milkman in that natty little uniform
:o)

unclewobbly@talk21.com wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 21:22:00 +0100, David Morgan
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>About 18 months ago there was a thread about the various speeded-up railway 
>>journey films. I've now found the 1962 Paddington to Birmingham Snow Hill 
>>available for non-commercial UK use from:-
>>
>>http://creative.bfi.org.uk/titles/409874
>>
>>The best quality download is 71MB
> 
> 
> heh... the driver looks like a milkman in that natty little uniform
> :o)

LOL I was just about to post the same. It's quite interesting to watch, 
stations like Tysley are still recognisable, and there is a bridge a 
short way past Tysley which is still there today, and looks EXACTLY the 
same.

"David Morgan"  wrote in
message news:432491e2$0$22940$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net...

> About 18 months ago there was a thread about the various speeded-up
railway
> journey films. I've now found the 1962 Paddington to Birmingham Snow Hill
> available for non-commercial UK use from:-
>
> http://creative.bfi.org.uk/titles/409874
>
> The best quality download is 71MB
>
> --
>
> David


Wow, yes that was me! Thanks for the link!

David Morgan wrote:

> About 18 months ago there was a thread about the various speeded-up railway
> journey films. I've now found the 1962 Paddington to Birmingham Snow Hill
> available for non-commercial UK use from:-
>
> http://creative.bfi.org.uk/titles/409874
>
> The best quality download is 71MB
>
> --
>
> David


What *have* they done to it?

I can't remember to correct aspect ratio of this film off-hand; the
image of this transfer on screen is close to 1.78 (16:9) which is not
too far removed from the 1.66 or 1.85 which were the most common ratios
for 35mm production by this date, but they have taken a narrower ratio,
though I think somewhat wider than the full 1.37 Adacemy frame, and
stretched it to fit this ratio.  Look at the shape of the clock at
Paddington, and the rare circular 'Totem' signs as Snow Hill.
Quicktime shows just the picture area, but Windows Media Player 9
letterboxes it within a lsightly narrower window, but still with the
same amount of stretch.

Well done BFI for making it available, but surely you can give us a
better transfer than this.

Stephen Furley wrote:

> David Morgan wrote:
>> About 18 months ago there was a thread about the various speeded-up
>> railway journey films. I've now found the 1962 Paddington to
>> Birmingham Snow Hill available for non-commercial UK use from:-
>>
>> http://creative.bfi.org.uk/titles/409874
>>
>> The best quality download is 71MB
>>
>> --
>>
>> David
>
> What *have* they done to it?
>
> I can't remember to correct aspect ratio of this film off-hand; the
> image of this transfer on screen is close to 1.78 (16:9) which is not
> too far removed from the 1.66 or 1.85 which were the most common
> ratios for 35mm production by this date, but they have taken a
> narrower ratio, though I think somewhat wider than the full 1.37
> Adacemy frame, and stretched it to fit this ratio.  Look at the shape
> of the clock at Paddington, and the rare circular 'Totem' signs as
> Snow Hill. Quicktime shows just the picture area, but Windows Media
> Player 9 letterboxes it within a lsightly narrower window, but still
> with the same amount of stretch.
>
> Well done BFI for making it available, but surely you can give us a
> better transfer than this.


I use Windows Media Player 10 and it looks perfectly ok to me :)

Simon

Simon wrote:


> I use Windows Media Player 10 and it looks perfectly ok to me :)
>
> Simon


That's interesting; I've just put 10 on my work pc, and it now displays
with a wide black border on all sides, but it's still stretched.

I've now tried Windows Media Player 9 and 10 and Quicktime 6.5.2 on pc,
and Windows Media Player and Quicktime Pro 7 on Mac, and they are all
displaying stretched.  Is anybody else having (or not having) this
problem?  Either way, what software are you using?  I've downloaded
other things from the BFI in the past, and they've been ok.

I'm using flat panel LCD monitors, so it's not a misadjusted CRT
problem.  Everything else is displayed correctly on all three monitors,
Apple, Dell and Silicon Graphics.

If somebody would like to donate me a 35mm, or even 16mm, print of the
film then that would solve the problem :)  I've projected several BTF
film on 35mm over the years; there are still some good prints of some
of them around, mainly the older black and white ones; a lot of the
colour ones have faded.

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 21:58:02 GMT, Daniel Martin
 wrote:


>unclewobbly@talk21.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 21:22:00 +0100, David Morgan
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>About 18 months ago there was a thread about the various speeded-up railway 
>>>journey films. I've now found the 1962 Paddington to Birmingham Snow Hill 
>>>available for non-commercial UK use from:-
>>>
>>>http://creative.bfi.org.uk/titles/409874
>>>
>>>The best quality download is 71MB
>> 
>> 
>> heh... the driver looks like a milkman in that natty little uniform
>> :o)
>LOL I was just about to post the same. It's quite interesting to watch, 
>stations like Tysley are still recognisable, and there is a bridge a 
>short way past Tysley which is still there today, and looks EXACTLY the 
>same.


yeah I was waiting for West Ruislip but they cut to an interior shot
just as it was about to show :o(

In message , at 
04:37:39 on Mon, 12 Sep 2005, Stephen Furley  
remarked:

>> I use Windows Media Player 10 and it looks perfectly ok to me :)
>>
>> Simon
>
>That's interesting; I've just put 10 on my work pc, and it now displays
>with a wide black border on all sides, but it's still stretched.


I'm using a DVD-playing application on my PC to view the MPG version of 
the file. The Snow Hill roundel at the end is almost perfect (335 pixels 
wide and 322 deep).

The frame is 940 x 700 (1.34:1).
-- 
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:


> I'm using a DVD-playing application on my PC to view the MPG version of
> the file. The Snow Hill roundel at the end is almost perfect (335 pixels
> wide and 322 deep).
>
> The frame is 940 x 700 (1.34:1).
> --
> Roland Perry


Thanks roland.

I've had a reply from somebody at the BTF forum at
www.britishtransportfilms.co.uk who says that he has the same problem,
and it also affects the other BTF film which they have available.

I've just tried opening it in Power DVD, and that opens it in a 4:3
window, and, as you say, the image is correct.  It seems that they've
transferred the full Academy frame, whether they should have done, or
whether the film was intended to be seen at a somewhat wider ratio I'm
not sure, but I'm pretty sure that BTF would have protected the full
Academy frame as their films were often shown on television, so it
would look ok that way.  For some reason, Quicktime and Windows Media
Player are interpreting this as being anamorphic 16:9 widescreen video
and stretching it accordingly, whereas PowerDVD is interpreting it
correctly as a 4:3 image.  Whether this is caused by a bug in Quicktime
and Media Player, or by a fault in the encoding of the video which
PowerDVD is somehow managing to cope with, and display it correctly,
I'm not sure.

"Stephen Furley"  wrote in message 
news:1126517187.124851.168670@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> David Morgan wrote:
>> About 18 months ago there was a thread about the various speeded-up 
>> railway
>> journey films. I've now found the 1962 Paddington to Birmingham Snow Hill
>> available for non-commercial UK use from:-
>>
>> http://creative.bfi.org.uk/titles/409874
>>
>> The best quality download is 71MB
>>
>> --
>>
>> David
>
> What *have* they done to it?


So you'ved managed to download it? I've tried to download both the WMV and 
MOV versions (25 and 33 MB) to save to disk. In both cases, the 
"downloading" window stays for about 15 mins while there's some very 
sporadic data transfer, then the "save as" window comes up, but when I save 
the file it's zero length.

Normally when you donwload a file, you get a "save as" window almost 
immediately and then a progress bar which gradually advances.

I've tried on two different PCs over my 2MB broadband connection.

Is it a firewall issue: I have Norton Internet Security 2005 on both PCs. 
I've tried disabling the firewall but it doesn't make any difference.

"Martin Underwood"  wrote

>
> So you'ved managed to download it? I've tried to download both the WMV and
> MOV versions (25 and 33 MB) to save to disk. In both cases, the
> "downloading" window stays for about 15 mins while there's some very
> sporadic data transfer, then the "save as" window comes up, but when I
save
> the file it's zero length.
>

Have you accepted the licence conditions? After clicking on the version I
wanted to save, I got an apparently blank window. On scrolling down this
turned out to contain a mass of verbiage, with an 'accept' button at the
bottom. After clicking this I was able to 'save as'.

Peter

"Peter Masson"  wrote in message 
news:dg4dgg$33d$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

>
> "Martin Underwood"  wrote
>>
>> So you'ved managed to download it? I've tried to download both the WMV 
>> and
>> MOV versions (25 and 33 MB) to save to disk. In both cases, the
>> "downloading" window stays for about 15 mins while there's some very
>> sporadic data transfer, then the "save as" window comes up, but when I
> save
>> the file it's zero length.
>>
> Have you accepted the licence conditions? After clicking on the version I
> wanted to save, I got an apparently blank window. On scrolling down this
> turned out to contain a mass of verbiage, with an 'accept' button at the
> bottom. After clicking this I was able to 'save as'.


Yes I have - sorry, I'd forgotten that stage.

I'll just give it another go and see if it works better today.

"Martin Underwood"  wrote in message 
news:4325b77b$0$17475$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...

> "Stephen Furley"  wrote in message 
> news:1126517187.124851.168670@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> David Morgan wrote:
>>> About 18 months ago there was a thread about the various speeded-up 
>>> railway
>>> journey films. I've now found the 1962 Paddington to Birmingham Snow 
>>> Hill
>>> available for non-commercial UK use from:-
>>>
>>> http://creative.bfi.org.uk/titles/409874
>>>
>>> The best quality download is 71MB
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> David
>>
>> What *have* they done to it?
>
> So you'ved managed to download it? I've tried to download both the WMV and 
> MOV versions (25 and 33 MB) to save to disk. In both cases, the 
> "downloading" window stays for about 15 mins while there's some very 
> sporadic data transfer, then the "save as" window comes up, but when I 
> save the file it's zero length.
>
> Normally when you donwload a file, you get a "save as" window almost 
> immediately and then a progress bar which gradually advances.
>
> I've tried on two different PCs over my 2MB broadband connection.
>
> Is it a firewall issue: I have Norton Internet Security 2005 on both PCs. 
> I've tried disabling the firewall but it doesn't make any difference.



The 71Mb file worked OK for me.

KW

Stephen Furley wrote:

> Simon wrote:
>
>> I use Windows Media Player 10 and it looks perfectly ok to me :)

> That's interesting; I've just put 10 on my work pc, and it now
> displays with a wide black border on all sides, but it's still
> stretched.
>
> I've now tried Windows Media Player 9 and 10 and Quicktime 6.5.2 on
> pc, and Windows Media Player and Quicktime Pro 7 on Mac, and they
> are all displaying stretched.  Is anybody else having (or not
> having) this problem?  Either way, what software are you using?


I'm getting this problem too.  On my PC and a laptop both running
Windows XP, I've had the following:

Windows Media Player 10: Stretched image about 1.8:1 (immediately
noticeable from the clock at Paddington).

QuickTime Player 6.3:  same problem

IrfanView (free image processing software which I generally use for
still images but it does handle videos, even .mov files):  Curiously,
the width is compressed rather than stretched, ratio about 1.2:1.  I've
never previously had this sort of problem with IrfanView.

VLC Media Player:  I discovered this software only a few days ago.  It
uses a small fraction of the CPU power of Windows Media Player, which
gets round the problem of jerky displays in WMP on some files.  Although
it also displays the Paddington-Snow Hill video as 1.8:1, it's easy to
set a source aspect ratio manually via Settings / Preferences /Video.
1.33:1 seems to be about right.  VLC Media Player is available free from
www.videolan.org.

-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 21:22:00 +0100, David Morgan
 wrote:


>About 18 months ago there was a thread about the various speeded-up railway 
>journey films. I've now found the 1962 Paddington to Birmingham Snow Hill 
>available for non-commercial UK use from:-
>
>http://creative.bfi.org.uk/titles/409874
>
>The best quality download is 71MB


Fantastic!

I really enjoyed that.

Notable items:

1. As mentioned previously, what's with the Ernie uniform for the driver?
2. The sheer number of kettles en route is phenomenal - most of them on
freight.  Makes you realise how much things have changed in the last 40
years on the railways.
3. Interesting brief view of a DMU with whiskers.
4. Anyone spot any other diesels in the clip?
5. Any chance of a real time version?  Thought not.  :-(
-- 
Tessy @ nospam.com
Life is complex: it has real and imaginary parts

Tessy wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 21:22:00 +0100, David Morgan
>  wrote:
>
>> About 18 months ago there was a thread about the various
>> speeded-up railway journey films. I've now found the 1962
>> Paddington to Birmingham Snow Hill available for non-commercial UK
>> use from:-
>>
>> http://creative.bfi.org.uk/titles/409874
>>
>> The best quality download is 71MB
>
> Fantastic!
>
> I really enjoyed that.


Yes, Thnks from me too.


>
> Notable items:
>
> 1. As mentioned previously, what's with the Ernie uniform for the
> driver?
> 2. The sheer number of kettles en route is phenomenal - most of
> them on freight.  Makes you realise how much things have changed in
> the last 40 years on the railways.
> 3. Interesting brief view of a DMU with whiskers.


There are in fact several of them.


> 4. Anyone spot any other diesels in the clip?


The only one I've seen is what looks like a Warship (D800 series) on the
left soon after Westbourne Park.

I also noticed an unpainted aluminium Central Line train (1962 stock?)
just after Greenford.


> 5. Any chance of a real time version?  Thought not.  :-(


You could use a player that allows you to vary the speed, but it gets
very jerky at anything approaching real time speed.
-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In message , at 22:57:08 on 
Mon, 12 Sep 2005, Tessy  remarked:

>2. The sheer number of kettles en route is phenomenal - most of them on
>freight.


And, of course, the remarkable lack of other passenger trains. Unless 
they are all in the parts where they cut away to the milkman.
-- 
Roland Perry

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 07:19:14 +0100 someone who may be Roland Perry
 wrote this:-


>And, of course, the remarkable lack of other passenger trains. Unless 
>they are all in the parts where they cut away to the milkman.


The film has a sad postscript. "The miilkman" was killed not long
after, in the crash at Knowle & Dorridge.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

Tessy wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 21:22:00 +0100, David Morgan
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>About 18 months ago there was a thread about the various speeded-up railway 
>>journey films. I've now found the 1962 Paddington to Birmingham Snow Hill 
>>available for non-commercial UK use from:-
>>
>>http://creative.bfi.org.uk/titles/409874
>>
>>The best quality download is 71MB
> 
> 
> Fantastic!
> 
> I really enjoyed that.
> 
> Notable items:
> 
> 1. As mentioned previously, what's with the Ernie uniform for the driver?
> 2. The sheer number of kettles en route is phenomenal - most of them on
> freight.  Makes you realise how much things have changed in the last 40
> years on the railways.
> 3. Interesting brief view of a DMU with whiskers.
> 4. Anyone spot any other diesels in the clip?
> 5. Any chance of a real time version?  Thought not.  :-(


You could *try* slowing it down again, Media Player is capable of doing 
that.

Tessy wrote:


> Notable items:


6. Bordesley station.
-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632970.html
(43 133 at Reading, 17 Jan 1980)

unclewobbly@talk21.com wrote:


> yeah I was waiting for West Ruislip but they cut to an interior shot
> just as it was about to show :o(


Also the stretch between Leamington and (I think) Dorridge isn't shown. Any 
other bits of the journey missing?

--
David

Pete_uk wrote:

> 
> Wow, yes that was me! Thanks for the link!
> 


No problem Pete. I remember looking for the film myself at the time of the 
original thread but couldn't find it as a free download. I just chanced upon it 
on Sunday.

--

David

Richard J. wrote:


> VLC Media Player:  I discovered this software only a few days ago.  It
> uses a small fraction of the CPU power of Windows Media Player, which


Actually it looked okay to me when I first viewed it, it's only when I saw 
Stephen's comments that I took another look. I guess I'm just not that observant 
about things like aspect ratio - maybe that's a result of watching 4:3 TV 
stretched to fit a widescreen TV.

Anyway I downloaded VLC Media and following your suggestions watched it at 
1.33:1. It does look better.

Thanks
--

David

Roland Perry wrote:


> And, of course, the remarkable lack of other passenger trains. Unless 
> they are all in the parts where they cut away to the milkman.


Apart from all the DMUs, I think I spotted 3 steam hauled passenger trains.
--

David

Chris Tolley wrote:


> 
> 6. Bordesley station.


Agreed. Amazing to see it as anything other than a windswept empty platform.

Speaking as someone who wouldn't have used the railway until the 1980's, the 
sheer number of signal boxes on the film stands out for me.

--
David

David Morgan  wrote:


> About 18 months ago there was a thread about the various speeded-up railway
> journey films. I've now found the 1962 Paddington to Birmingham Snow Hill
> available for non-commercial UK use from:-
> 
> http://creative.bfi.org.uk/titles/409874
> 
> The best quality download is 71MB


Great stuff, thanks! 

-- 
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
photos at http://homepage.mac.com/davidhornecomposer

David Hansen wrote:


> The film has a sad postscript. "The miilkman" was killed not long
> after, in the crash at Knowle & Dorridge.
> 


I'm very sorry to hear this. Is there anywhere on the net I could learn more 
about that accident? Dorrige is very local to me but I wasn't aware that there 
had been a fatal railway accident there in the 1960s.

--

David

In message <432729bd$0$17473$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>, at 
20:34:33 on Tue, 13 Sep 2005, David Morgan 
 remarked:

>> And, of course, the remarkable lack of other passenger trains. Unless 
>>they are all in the parts where they cut away to the milkman.
>
>Apart from all the DMUs, I think I spotted 3 steam hauled passenger trains.


Not very many for a 2 hour trip. I didn't see any (other than a few 
DMUs), perhaps I need to pay more attention!
-- 
Roland Perry

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:57:37 +0100, David Morgan wrote in
<43272f26$0$22923$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>, seen in
uk.railway:

> David Hansen wrote:
> 
> > The film has a sad postscript. "The miilkman" was killed not long
> > after, in the crash at Knowle & Dorridge.
> 
> I'm very sorry to hear this. Is there anywhere on the net I could learn more 
> about that accident? Dorrige is very local to me but I wasn't aware that there 
> had been a fatal railway accident there in the 1960s.


Not sure about the net, but you might like to try the local library
for a copy of 'Obstruction Danger' by Adrian Vaughan; the accident is
covered in there. 

-- 
Ross, a.k.a.
Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life)
Hon. Pres., National Soc. for the Encouragement for Cruelty to Dogboxes
Proud to be the target of various trolls, sock puppets and other idiots

Roland Perry wrote:


> Not very many for a 2 hour trip. I didn't see any (other than a few 
> DMUs), perhaps I need to pay more attention!


There's one just south of High Wycome and another when the train slows down for 
the signal at Bordesley. I forget where the other(s) are.

I don't remember being surprised about the number of trains heading south when I 
watched the film. All in there's probably about 10 passenger trains.

How does this compare to today?

I travel this line from time to time (Birmingham to Marylebone rather than 
Paddington)- in fact I'm making that journey tomorrow. If I don't fall asleep, 
I'll make a mental note of traffic heading in the opposite direction to me.
--

David

Ross wrote:



> Not sure about the net, but you might like to try the local library
> for a copy of 'Obstruction Danger' by Adrian Vaughan; the accident is
> covered in there. 
> 


Thanks Ross, I'll check it out
--

David

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 21:22:00 +0100, David Morgan
 wrote:


>About 18 months ago there was a thread about the various speeded-up railway 
>journey films. I've now found the 1962 Paddington to Birmingham Snow Hill 
>available for non-commercial UK use from:-
>
>http://creative.bfi.org.uk/titles/409874
>
>The best quality download is 71MB


has anyone managed to grab the 1985 London - Bristol flim?

It is "priviledged" use only :o(

"David Morgan"  wrote

>
> I don't remember being surprised about the number of trains heading south
when I
> watched the film. All in there's probably about 10 passenger trains.
>
> How does this compare to today?
>
> I travel this line from time to time (Birmingham to Marylebone rather than
> Paddington)- in fact I'm making that journey tomorrow. If I don't fall
asleep,
> I'll make a mental note of traffic heading in the opposite direction to

me.

In 1962 there was basically an hourly service between Birmingham Snow Hill
and Paddington (and most of the expresses on the New Street to Euston route
had been withdrawn because of the electrification works). There were very
few, only 2-3 per day, trains on the Birmingham - Reading - South Coast
route. So trhe Birmingham Pullman would only have passed 5 or 6 class 1
trains between Old Oak Common and Birmingham, plus DMUs between Northolt
Junction and Princes Risborough, and between Leamington Spa and Birmingham.

Now there are 2 tph Marylebone to Birmingham, although the main service is
from Euston, plus one every 2 hours to Stratford, with a total of 5 tph
between Marylebone and High Wycombe, while VXC run 2 tph over the Aynho -
Leamington section.

Peter

In message <43273457$0$1277$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>, at 
21:19:46 on Tue, 13 Sep 2005, David Morgan 
 remarked:

>> Not very many for a 2 hour trip. I didn't see any (other than a few 
>>DMUs), perhaps I need to pay more attention!
>
>There's one just south of High Wycome and another when the train slows 
>down for the signal at Bordesley. I forget where the other(s) are.
>
>I don't remember being surprised about the number of trains heading 
>south when I watched the film. All in there's probably about 10 
>passenger trains.


OK, here are the trains coming the other way, starting at 1min 14sec in, 
when it turns off the western main line:

1.17   Light engine
1.37                DMU
1.41                     Goods
2.15                           Passenger
2.40                     Goods
2.44                     Goods
2.58                           Passenger
3.10                DMU
3.21   Light engine
3.32                     Goods
3.42                DMU (possibly stabled)
3.47 *              DMU (hiding behind goods train)
4.10                     Goods
4.55                           Passenger
5.12                DMU (emerging from tunnel)

The part north of Leamington is especially sparse.

* Leamington Spa.
-- 
Roland Perry

Its a pity all that stuff including "Night Mail" and "Snow" isn't
available for download.

1501 wrote:

> Its a pity all that stuff including "Night Mail" and "Snow" isn't
> available for download.


The BFI sell several videos, and I think now DVDs, of BTF films, so
they're not going to make too much available for free download, as it
would detract from sales of those products.  I think they could put up
a bit more, maybe one exmple from each decade.  They should also use
the web page to publicise all the video material they have available;
people who want to download one BTF title may well buy several others
on video if they know that they're available.

The BFI acquired most of the BTF titles; the ones made for London
Transport went to the London Transport Museum, who have released
several on video.  I think that a few other non-BR titles went to
somebody else, but I'm not sure about this.

'Night Mail' was made by the GPO film unit, as was 'North Sea', and
other non-transport films, such as Len Lye's 'Trade Tattoo' etc.; I'm
not sure who owns the rights to these now.  Night Mail' is available on
video.

The Shell film unit, who Edgar Anstey worked for before he went to the
BTC to set up BTF also made a number of films which may be of interest,
such as 'The Fell Locomotive' and 'The Gas Turbine'.  I think Shell
still holds the rights to these films.

It's still possible to see BTF films at the cinema; Paddington Films
give various shows around the Country, usually at City Screen's
'Picture House' cinemas; I've been to ones at Southampton and York.
Rob Foxon and Alan Wilmott (Ex. BTF) also give shows at various venues.
 The events section at www.britishtransportfilms.co.uk usually has
details, but I don't think there are any listed at the moment.

David Morgan wrote:

> David Hansen wrote:
>
> > The film has a sad postscript. "The miilkman" was killed not long
> > after, in the crash at Knowle & Dorridge.
> >
>
> I'm very sorry to hear this. Is there anywhere on the net I could learn more
> about that accident? Dorrige is very local to me but I wasn't aware that there
> had been a fatal railway accident there in the 1960s.
>
> --

I think I remember seeing a photo of the aftermath of this accident. It
showed a D1000 Western with one of its cabs smashed in being towed away
by a Black 5. Would that have been the accident referred to?

Andy Kirkham

On 14 Sep 2005 02:06:25 -0700 someone who may be "Andy Kirkham"
 wrote this:-


>I think I remember seeing a photo of the aftermath of this accident. It
>showed a D1000 Western with one of its cabs smashed in being towed away
>by a Black 5. Would that have been the accident referred to?


Quite possibly, assuming it was a Standard rather then the LMS
version. I doubt if the (G)WR would have entertained an LMS
locomotive, even in such circumstances. The cab of the 52 was very
badly damaged by the car carrying wagons it crashed into.

The cause of the crash was a signalman failing to carry out the
correct procedure for an express train. A procedure was necessary
because of the closely spaced signal boxes someone mentioned and
inadequate braking distance. These boxes were largely there to
handle the volume of shunting and the like. In essence the distant
signal of box A was acting as the distant for box B and the
procedure involved exchanging special bell signals before the
distant signal for box A was cleared.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

The message 
from "1501"  contains these words:


> Its a pity all that stuff including "Night Mail" and "Snow" isn't
> available for download.


A few years ago Channel 4 gave up huge chunks of their Christmas
schedule to show railway films, which included Blue Pullman and
Paddington-Snow Hill in 5mins.  Cost me a fortune in video tape... 

-- 
Dave,                                     
Frodsham

David Jackson  wrote:


>The message 
>from "1501"  contains these words:
>
>> Its a pity all that stuff including "Night Mail" and "Snow" isn't
>> available for download.
>
>A few years ago Channel 4 gave up huge chunks of their Christmas
>schedule to show railway films, which included Blue Pullman and
>Paddington-Snow Hill in 5mins.  Cost me a fortune in video tape... 


Same here.  I still have the tapes ... somewhere!?!??

;-)

Tony Polson wrote:

> David Jackson  wrote:
>>A few years ago Channel 4 gave up huge chunks of their Christmas
>>schedule to show railway films, which included Blue Pullman and
>>Paddington-Snow Hill in 5mins.  Cost me a fortune in video tape... 
> 
> Same here.  I still have the tapes ... somewhere!?!??


Me too, but I do know where they are. It's the special C4 season booklet
saying what they were broadcasting that I've misplaced...

-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9683642.html
(53491 (Class 104) at Manchester Piccadilly, 8 Jun 1985)

On 16/9/05 9:34 pm, in article
432b2c67$0$97114$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net, "David Morgan"
 wrote:



> Would a professional film crew in the 1960s have been able to take 2 cameras
> with them, making sure one was running at all times? Were film cameras too
> expensive in the 1960s to do this?
> 
> Just curious.
> --
> 
> David


Not a problem of cost, but it would probably be difficult to find space for
two cameras in the cab.  'Let's go to Birmingham' runs for about six
minutes; 35mm film normally runs at 90 feet per minute, so the film would be
about 540 feet, say 600 feet long.  I don't know what camera was used for
this film; most 35mm cameras take 1000 foot magazines, though some can take
2000 foot ones for special purposes, and 400 foot magazines are often used
where size and/or weight are important, such as hand held or Steadycam use
(or filming from a train cab?)  Even this may have been too large.

Many of the early BTF films were made with a Newman-Sinclair clockwork drive
camera, which takes a 200 foot load within the camera body, rather than in
an external magazine.  This camera is quite small, about 200mm square and
100mm wide; there is a picture of one being pointed at Waterloo signalbox in
the http://www.britishtransportfilms.co.uk home page.  This camera could
have been ideal for the purpose, it can fun the full 200 foot load on one
winding of the two springs, so if was used only two re-loadings would have
been necessary.  There are even smaller 35mm cameras; such as the Bell &
Howell Eyemo, which take a 100 foot load on daylight-loading spools; with
one of these five reloads would have been necessary.  If I had been making
the film I think I would have used the Newman-Sinclair, because BTF had one
available, it can be re-loaded and the springs re-wound quickly, and is a
very good camera, much used for documentary film making for about fifty
years, but as I said, I don't know what camera was actually used.  Whatever
camera was used, there seem to be more cutaways to the driver than would
have been needed just for re-loading; maybe some were to replace problem
sequences, such as the sun shining into the camera lens, or a bird hitting
the train.

Given the stop at Leamington Spa, and the opening and closing shots at
Paddington and Snow Hill, the actual run must take about five minutes; given
the actual journey time of about two hours this is about 24 times actual
speed, so the camera would have been running at about one frame per second.

Graeme Wall wrote:


> 
> Not impossible but unlikely[1].  For a start the POV would alter when you
> changed cameras unless you are going to swap them over on the same mount.
> Then it doesn't take much longer to just change the mag on a single camera.
> 


Maybe they could have shown a quick cutaway to some 'stock' footage of the 
driver before going back to the film from the 2nd camera - thus a small shift in 
the POV would not be obvious.

Anyway, 40+ years on I suppose it's a bit late for us to be telling the film 
makers how to have done their job. It's still a very interesting little film as 
are all the other speeded up railway films of yesteryear.
--

David

Stephen Furley wrote:


> Not a problem of cost, but it would probably be difficult to find space for
> two cameras in the cab.  'Let's go to Birmingham' runs for about six
>


<Rest of very interesting post snipped>

Thanks Stephen, it's only when people like you, Graham and other contributors 
point out some of the practical problems that some of the rest of us (whose only 
experience is with modern video cameras) get to understand the issues.

The depth and breadth of knowledge of this newsgroup never ceases to amaze.

regards


David

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 20:46:41 +0000 (UTC), "Paul Scott"
 wrote:


>
>"David Morgan"  wrote in 
>message news:432b2c67$0$97114$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
>> Graeme Wall wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Changing mags possibly.
>>>
>>
>> That thought had also occurred to me, I think the cutaways to the driver 
>> in the 'London/Brighton/5 mins' were for the same reason.
>>
>> Would a professional film crew in the 1960s have been able to take 2 
>> cameras with them, making sure one was running at all times? Were film 
>> cameras too expensive in the 1960s to do this?
>>
>> Just curious.
>> --
>>
>> David
>
>Possibly not enough room in the cab for two complete cameras? They would be 
>pretty large in the 60s I should think.
>

Do we know it was all filmed on the one run?  What's to stop them filming
different segments on different days?

I noticed that there were raindrops on the windscreen that magically
disappeared after one of the cut aways to Ernie.
-- 
Tessy @ nospam.com
Life is complex: it has real and imaginary parts

In message <432b3aec$0$17471$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>
          David Morgan  wrote:


> Graeme Wall wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Not impossible but unlikely[1].  For a start the POV would alter when you
> > changed cameras unless you are going to swap them over on the same mount.
> > Then it doesn't take much longer to just change the mag on a single
> > camera.
> > 
> 
> Maybe they could have shown a quick cutaway to some 'stock' footage of the 
> driver before going back to the film from the 2nd camera - thus a small
> shift in  the POV would not be obvious.


I did a quick check and I think the POV is identical, so no they didn't use 2
seperate cameras and mounts...


> 
> Anyway, 40+ years on I suppose it's a bit late for us to be telling the
> film  makers how to have done their job. It's still a very interesting
> little film as  are all the other speeded up railway films of yesteryear.


They are great to watch and I bet those who made them wish they had the
facilities we have now.  Shoot it on one tape in real time and let a computer
speed it up for you.

-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

In message 
          Tessy  wrote:


> On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 20:46:41 +0000 (UTC), "Paul Scott"
>  wrote:
> 
> >
> >"David Morgan"  wrote in 
> >message news:432b2c67$0$97114$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
> >> Graeme Wall wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Changing mags possibly.
> >>>
> >>
> >> That thought had also occurred to me, I think the cutaways to the driver 
> >> in the 'London/Brighton/5 mins' were for the same reason.
> >>
> >> Would a professional film crew in the 1960s have been able to take 2 
> >> cameras with them, making sure one was running at all times? Were film 
> >> cameras too expensive in the 1960s to do this?
> >>
> >> Just curious.
> >> --
> >>
> >> David
> > 
> > Possibly not enough room in the cab for two complete cameras? They would
> > be  pretty large in the 60s I should think.
> >
> Do we know it was all filmed on the one run?  What's to stop them filming
> different segments on different days?


Nothing in principal but I suspect it was shot on one out and back journey,
the main shot on the way up and the cutaways of the driver on the way back. 
I wondered if the external tracking shot used at one point was done
specifically for the film or whether it was a stock shot.

NB if anyone can see two small boys trainspotting at Beaconsfield station,
one of them was probably me :-)


> 
> I noticed that there were raindrops on the windscreen that magically
> disappeared after one of the cut aways to Ernie.


-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

Graeme Wall wrote:


> Nothing in principal but I suspect it was shot on one out and back journey,
> the main shot on the way up and the cutaways of the driver on the way back. 
> I wondered if the external tracking shot used at one point was done
> specifically for the film or whether it was a stock shot.


Well ... there's that image from above the train, after Bicester, of the 
blue pullman approaching a tunnel, but the aerial film isn't the tunnel 
north of Bicester, as there's only one of that, and not two. It looks as 
though the train is suddenly the Manchester service, running north on 
the Midland Main line?

Mark Annand wrote:

> Graeme Wall wrote:
>
> > Nothing in principal but I suspect it was shot on one out and back journey,
> > the main shot on the way up and the cutaways of the driver on the way back.
> > I wondered if the external tracking shot used at one point was done
> > specifically for the film or whether it was a stock shot.
>
> Well ... there's that image from above the train, after Bicester, of the
> blue pullman approaching a tunnel, but the aerial film isn't the tunnel
> north of Bicester, as there's only one of that, and not two. It looks as
> though the train is suddenly the Manchester service, running north on
> the Midland Main line?


could it have been some of the Blue Pullman footage?

In message <432c27a9$0$23043$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>
          Mark Annand  wrote:


> Graeme Wall wrote:
> 
> > Nothing in principal but I suspect it was shot on one out and back
> > journey, the main shot on the way up and the cutaways of the driver on
> > the way back.  I wondered if the external tracking shot used at one point
> > was done specifically for the film or whether it was a stock shot.
> 
> Well ... there's that image from above the train, after Bicester, of the 
> blue pullman approaching a tunnel, but the aerial film isn't the tunnel 
> north of Bicester, as there's only one of that, and not two. It looks as 
> though the train is suddenly the Manchester service, running north on  the
> Midland Main line?


The other exterior shot is on random straight track so I suspect they were
some stock shots.

-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

In message 
          "MartinM"  wrote:


> 
> Mark Annand wrote:
> > Graeme Wall wrote:
> >
> > > Nothing in principal but I suspect it was shot on one out and back
> > > journey, the main shot on the way up and the cutaways of the driver on
> > > the way back. I wondered if the external tracking shot used at one
> > > point was done specifically for the film or whether it was a stock
> > > shot.
> >
> > Well ... there's that image from above the train, after Bicester, of the
> > blue pullman approaching a tunnel, but the aerial film isn't the tunnel
> > north of Bicester, as there's only one of that, and not two. It looks as
> > though the train is suddenly the Manchester service, running north on
> > the Midland Main line?
> 
> could it have been some of the Blue Pullman footage?
> 


Not seen that, when was it shot?

As a follow-up are the Brighton films available on the net?

-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

Graeme Wall wrote:

> In message 
>           "MartinM"  wrote:
>
> >
> > Mark Annand wrote:
> > > Graeme Wall wrote:
> > >
> > > > Nothing in principal but I suspect it was shot on one out and back
> > > > journey, the main shot on the way up and the cutaways of the driver on
> > > > the way back. I wondered if the external tracking shot used at one
> > > > point was done specifically for the film or whether it was a stock
> > > > shot.
> > >
> > > Well ... there's that image from above the train, after Bicester, of the
> > > blue pullman approaching a tunnel, but the aerial film isn't the tunnel
> > > north of Bicester, as there's only one of that, and not two. It looks as
> > > though the train is suddenly the Manchester service, running north on
> > > the Midland Main line?
> >
> > could it have been some of the Blue Pullman footage?
> >
>
> Not seen that, when was it shot?


it's a must , 1960 I think, features Manchester Central to St Panc,
Monsal Head and a lot of aerial and driver's eye footage and also from
the slow line. Colour, I got an old VHS tape but it must be on DVD by
now.

Graeme Wall wrote:


> As a follow-up are the Brighton films available on the net?
> 


Only very poor quality versions as far as I know 
http://www.british_television.webpark.pl/londonbrightonfilm.htm


--
David

MartinM wrote:

> Mark Annand wrote:
> > Graeme Wall wrote:
> >
> > > Nothing in principal but I suspect it was shot on one out and back journey,
> > > the main shot on the way up and the cutaways of the driver on the way back.
> > > I wondered if the external tracking shot used at one point was done
> > > specifically for the film or whether it was a stock shot.
> >
> > Well ... there's that image from above the train, after Bicester, of the
> > blue pullman approaching a tunnel, but the aerial film isn't the tunnel
> > north of Bicester, as there's only one of that, and not two. It looks as
> > though the train is suddenly the Manchester service, running north on
> > the Midland Main line?
>
> could it have been some of the Blue Pullman footage?


I reckon it is, there's only two bits of aerial footage in LGTB and
they are probably borrowed; I thought the Midland one was on the other
tracks though, the bits through and shot from a train to the right of
the Pullman.

The BP dvd is available but an old VHS would be much cheaper.
another good one which was on the same tape was Intercity 1250 which is
KX-Posh (1982)

In message <432c4248$0$17460$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>
          David Morgan  wrote:


> Graeme Wall wrote:
> 
> > As a follow-up are the Brighton films available on the net?
> > 
> 
> Only very poor quality versions as far as I know 
> http://www.british_television.webpark.pl/londonbrightonfilm.htm
> 


Thanks.

-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005, Graeme Wall wrote:


> As a follow-up are the Brighton films available on the net?


"Let's go to Hove Actually" ?  SCNR.

In message 
          "Alan J. Flavell"  wrote:


> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005, Graeme Wall wrote:
> 
> > As a follow-up are the Brighton films available on the net?
> 
> "Let's go to Hove Actually" ?  SCNR.


Good job I'd put the coffee down...

-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

The film was also available on a Kingfisher video compilation of
various Blue Pullman related BTFs, including one featurung a test run
where all the engineers are using slide rules! I was in the last year
group as a schoolboy (as recently as 1978) to learn how to use one and
still have mine somewhere, although I've not used it in years!

I particularly like the choice of music on the film: Perpetuum Mobile,
written by, IIRC, one of the Strausses. The point of the music is that
it never stops, hence the name; when it is (usually) played at the
famous concert from Vienna on New Year's Day, at one point the
conductor will put his baton down (the signal to the orchestra to stop)
and then turn to the audience and say "und so weiter, und so weiter..."
("and so on, and so on..."). There is a lovely bit in the film where
the train is checked somewhere beyond Bordesley (?) and the music
simply slows down and stops, like a wind-up gramophone that has run out
of oomph, and then starts up again as the train moves off.

wrote in message
news:1127069141.605800.264940@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> The film was also available on a Kingfisher video compilation of
> various Blue Pullman related BTFs, including one featurung a test run
> where all the engineers are using slide rules! I was in the last year
> group as a schoolboy (as recently as 1978) to learn how to use one and
> still have mine somewhere, although I've not used it in years!


Ah, the slide rule, a much-misunderstood device. There are some things for
which nothing is as good - e.g. for checking whether ratio x/y is higher
than a/b. I always used it for goal average, as opposed to goal difference.

I wonder how many people could use one now.

Regards

Jonathan

"Jonathan Morton"  wrote in 
message news:dgkdbe$r5a$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

>  wrote in message
> news:1127069141.605800.264940@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> The film was also available on a Kingfisher video compilation of
>> various Blue Pullman related BTFs, including one featurung a test run
>> where all the engineers are using slide rules! I was in the last year
>> group as a schoolboy (as recently as 1978) to learn how to use one and
>> still have mine somewhere, although I've not used it in years!
>
> Ah, the slide rule, a much-misunderstood device. There are some things for
> which nothing is as good - e.g. for checking whether ratio x/y is higher
> than a/b. I always used it for goal average, as opposed to goal 
> difference.
>
> I wonder how many people could use one now.



Just don't ask me where the decimal point goes!

KW

Mine is a Thompson made device!

In message <yflXe.6900$1A.3525@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>
          "Ken Ward"  wrote:


> 
> "Jonathan Morton"  wrote in 
> message news:dgkdbe$r5a$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> >  wrote in message
> > news:1127069141.605800.264940@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >> The film was also available on a Kingfisher video compilation of
> >> various Blue Pullman related BTFs, including one featurung a test run
> >> where all the engineers are using slide rules! I was in the last year
> >> group as a schoolboy (as recently as 1978) to learn how to use one and
> >> still have mine somewhere, although I've not used it in years!
> >
> > Ah, the slide rule, a much-misunderstood device. There are some things
> > for which nothing is as good - e.g. for checking whether ratio x/y is
> > higher than a/b. I always used it for goal average, as opposed to goal 
> > difference.
> >
> > I wonder how many people could use one now.
> 
> 
> Just don't ask me where the decimal point goes!
> 


Where would you like it to go?


> 
> Mine is a Thompson made device! 
> 
> 


Faber Castell

-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

David Morgan wrote:

> Graeme Wall wrote:
> 
>> As a follow-up are the Brighton films available on the net?
>>
> 
> Only very poor quality versions as far as I know 
> http://www.british_television.webpark.pl/londonbrightonfilm.htm
> 
> 
> -- 
> David



It's worth watching the 1983 version just for the fantastic 'Human 
League meet Jarre in Dusseldorf' soundtrack music!

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005, Graeme Wall wrote:


> Faber Castell


Snap!

Haven't had it out of its box for years, though, I'm afraid.

"Alan J. Flavell"  wrote in message 
news:Pine.LNX.4.62.0509191025590.24819@ppepc56.ph.gla.ac.uk...

> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005, Graeme Wall wrote:
>
>> Faber Castell
>
> Snap!
>
> Haven't had it out of its box for years, though, I'm afraid.


I'm just too young to have been taught how to use a slide rule (I did maths 
in the 1970s): I wouldn't have a clue how *exactly* to use one, though I 
understand the principle that you are adding/subtracting distances which 
represent the logs of the numbers that you're working with so as to 
multiply/divide those numbers.

I used to be a dab hand at using log tables and I probably could still use 
them now, though I'm a bit rusty on what exactly you handle the bar notation 
for negative logs (ie logs of numbers with negative powers of 10).

Even my maths teacher, a dyed-in-the-wool technosceptic who believed that 
the old ways were the best ways, had to admit that calculators were 
generally a Good Idea, with the proviso that you need to know how to 
calculate by hand in case the calculator fails, and you need to know roughly 
what answer you expect to guard against silly answers: 12345*23456 is likely 
to give an answer of the order of 10^8, so an answer of 10^50 or 10^-30 is 
going to be wrong - check for mis-keying! And anyone who uses a calculator 
to add 1 or multiply by 10 is a Non Mathematician - he used to delight in 
drawing a big letter S ("the Sign of the Non-Mathematician") in chalk on the 
forehead of people who made silly mistakes or didn't think things through... 
like the question on today's page of the Radio Times: multiply 
1x5x8x3x4x0x9x6x7x2!

Thirty years on, I can still remember his nmemonic for the trig functions:

TAN the Poor Boy
COS the Beer is Here
SIN of the Public House

(where the sides are perpendicular, base and hypotenuse)

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 18:57:51 +0000 (UTC), "Jonathan Morton"
 wrote:


>Ah, the slide rule, a much-misunderstood device. There are some things for
>which nothing is as good - e.g. for checking whether ratio x/y is higher
>than a/b. I always used it for goal average, as opposed to goal difference.
>
>I wonder how many people could use one now.
>

Of course, but I do not remember some of the more obscure things you
could do with it!  Mine is an 'Unique' log log still in its original
case dated 1944.   The case has survived because it was customary at
my boarding school to protect them with the white tape used in those
days to bind cricket bats.
It has useful Sin/Cos and Tan/Cot tables on the reverse together with
a set of trigonometrical formulae.
The other essential was 4 figure log tables and, for more advanced
work, 7 figure logs.  I don't think I have those any more.

Guy Gorton

In message 
          "Alan J. Flavell"  wrote:


> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005, Graeme Wall wrote:
> 
> > Faber Castell
> 
> Snap!
> 
> Haven't had it out of its box for years, though, I'm afraid.


I get mine out occasionally (one day they'll catch me at it) to demonstrate
to various nephews and nieces that there was life before computers.

-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

In message 
          Guy Gorton  wrote:


> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 18:57:51 +0000 (UTC), "Jonathan Morton"
>  wrote:
> 
> >Ah, the slide rule, a much-misunderstood device. There are some things for
> >which nothing is as good - e.g. for checking whether ratio x/y is higher
> >than a/b. I always used it for goal average, as opposed to goal difference.
> >
> >I wonder how many people could use one now.
> >
> Of course, but I do not remember some of the more obscure things you
> could do with it!  Mine is an 'Unique' log log still in its original
> case dated 1944.   The case has survived because it was customary at
> my boarding school to protect them with the white tape used in those
> days to bind cricket bats.
> It has useful Sin/Cos and Tan/Cot tables on the reverse together with
> a set of trigonometrical formulae.
> The other essential was 4 figure log tables and, for more advanced
> work, 7 figure logs.  I don't think I have those any more.
> 


I've still got my 4 fig log tables (Cambridge University Press 1946 edition)
if you need a quick look-up :-)

-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

In article <64a7caac4d%rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>,
Graeme Wall   wrote:

>to various nephews and nieces that there was life before computers.


Not forgetting that the original usage of the word computer referred to
a human being doing calculations:)

Mike

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 11:57:15 +0100 someone who may be Graeme Wall
 wrote this:-


>I've still got my 4 fig log tables (Cambridge University Press 1946 edition)
>if you need a quick look-up :-)


I opened up my school log tables yesterday. I am pondering placing a
solar water heating panel on the wall of my house and they came in
handy for working out how big a frame would be necessary.

Unfortunately doing this means getting planning permission, it seems
from my researches before work. More red tape. Given the current
fiasco with solar grants in Scotland I'm not convinced government is
particularly keen on reducing greenhouse gas emissions.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 11:19:39 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be Mike
Civil  wrote this:-


>Not forgetting that the original usage of the word computer referred to
>a human being doing calculations:)


Often calculations for government on things like the ballistics of
projectiles fired from naval guns. Although onboard a ship such
calculations were done by analogue computer this had to be set up
properly before it could be used. It is because of this sort of
thing that initial projections of small numbers of computers were
made, which now sound so laughable.

Slide rules are faster then calculators for some operations,
especially those that require several steps with a calculator.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005, Mike Civil wrote:


> Not forgetting that the original usage of the word computer referred 
> to a human being doing calculations:)


Good point.  The first time I visited the Radio Astronomy dept at 
Cambridge (back when the Cavendish Lab was in Free School Lane - that 
dates me - probably it was when I was a prospective student), there 
was a door off the corridor, labelled "Computers".

Inside were two benches, each with several Brunsviga calculating 
machines, with girls seated at them computing furiously away...

cheers

Guy Gorton (drossguy.gorton@stoppervirgin.net) writes:

> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 18:57:51 +0000 (UTC), "Jonathan Morton"
>  wrote:
> 
>>Ah, the slide rule, a much-misunderstood device....
>>
> Of course, but I do not remember some of the more obscure things you
> could do with it!  Mine is an 'Unique' log log still in its original
> case dated 1944.  


The first one I bought cost sixpence at Woolworths, a plain varnished
wood finish.  It worked well.


> The other essential was 4 figure log tables and, for more advanced
> work, 7 figure logs.  I don't think I have those any more.


We used 7 figure logs every day before computers.  One time in the
Toronto Public Library, reference section, they had a book of 23
figure logs.  They were used by astronomers and the like.

Tudor Jones.

In message 
          David Hansen  wrote:


> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 11:19:39 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be Mike
> Civil  wrote this:-
> 
> >Not forgetting that the original usage of the word computer referred to
> >a human being doing calculations:)
> 
> Often calculations for government on things like the ballistics of
> projectiles fired from naval guns. Although onboard a ship such
> calculations were done by analogue computer this had to be set up
> properly before it could be used. It is because of this sort of
> thing that initial projections of small numbers of computers were
> made, which now sound so laughable.
> 
> 


2 for USA and 3 for Europe, or was it the other way round?

-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

You might be interested to note that there is actually a cine version of 
this up for grabs on Ebay at the moment...see 
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6434651945&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:UK:1

and no, before you ask, it's nothing at all to do with me!

Kevin the Lurker

 wrote in message 
news:1127069141.605800.264940@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> The film was also available on a Kingfisher video compilation of
> various Blue Pullman related BTFs, including one featurung a test run
> where all the engineers are using slide rules! I was in the last year
> group as a schoolboy (as recently as 1978) to learn how to use one and
> still have mine somewhere, although I've not used it in years!
>
> I particularly like the choice of music on the film: Perpetuum Mobile,
> written by, IIRC, one of the Strausses. The point of the music is that
> it never stops, hence the name; when it is (usually) played at the
> famous concert from Vienna on New Year's Day, at one point the
> conductor will put his baton down (the signal to the orchestra to stop)
> and then turn to the audience and say "und so weiter, und so weiter..."
> ("and so on, and so on..."). There is a lovely bit in the film where
> the train is checked somewhere beyond Bordesley (?) and the music
> simply slows down and stops, like a wind-up gramophone that has run out
> of oomph, and then starts up again as the train moves off.
> 

The message <432e8f21$0$97097$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net>
from "Martin Underwood"  contains these words:


> Even my maths teacher, a dyed-in-the-wool technosceptic who believed that 
> the old ways were the best ways,


I don't remember a Martin Underwood in any of my classes...  <g>

-- 
Dave,                                     
Frodsham

Alan J. Flavell wrote:

> 
> Good point.  The first time I visited the Radio Astronomy dept at
> Cambridge (back when the Cavendish Lab was in Free School Lane - that
> dates me - probably it was when I was a prospective student), there
> was a door off the corridor, labelled "Computers".
> 
> Inside were two benches, each with several Brunsviga calculating
> machines, with girls seated at them computing furiously away...


At my first job, in 1958, we had those in the office, and a Hollerith
machine as well. Not to mention two comptometer operators. 

-- 
John Ray, London UK.

"Martin Underwood"  wrote in message
news:432e8f21$0$97097$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...

>
> Thirty years on, I can still remember his nmemonic for the trig functions:
>
> TAN the Poor Boy
> COS the Beer is Here
> SIN of the Public House


Sir Olivers Horse Came Ambling Home To Oliver's Arms. (S=O/H, C=A/H, T=O/A
for Opposite, adjacent, hypotenuse)

-- 
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7069/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 13:07:29 +0100, David Hansen
 wrote:


>I'm not convinced government is
>particularly keen on reducing greenhouse gas emissions.


It isn't.  It is more concerned with the idea of the reduction in tax
revenue that the above would result in.

Of course, said lost tax revenues could, and should, be offset by
increasing income tax as and when required, but that honest approach
is politically unacceptable.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

"John Rowland"  wrote in message
news:dgmlvo$t6p$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...

> "Martin Underwood"  wrote in message
> news:432e8f21$0$97097$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
>>
>> Thirty years on, I can still remember his mnemonic for the trig
>> functions:
>>
>> TAN the Poor Boy
>> COS the Beer is Here
>> SIN of the Public House
>
> Sir Oliver's Horse Came Ambling Home To Oliver's Arms. (S=O/H, C=A/H,
> T=O/A
> for Opposite, adjacent, hypotenuse)


I've not heard that one before. It's got an almost poetic ring to it - like
'"Jolly Friends Make Angry Men Just Jump About," Said One Noble Duke' for
the months of the year or 'Bye Bye Rosie, On You Go - Birmingham Via Great
Western' for the colour-coding of resistors (brown, black, red, orange,
yellow, green, blue, violet, grey, white). Or is it black, brown, ... ? I
can never remember. A quick web search says the latter. It also gives a less
PC mnemonic 'Bad Boys Ravish Only Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly'!
http://xtronics.com/kits/rcode.htm

The other thing that sticks in my mind about my maths teacher was the rules
for proving that two triangles were congruent. You need three things to
correspond between the two triangles to prove that the triangles are
identical. Three sides (SSS) is one valid case. Two sides and the angle
between them (SAS) is another. But it is not sufficient for an angle and two
adjacent sides (not containing the angle) to be the same, because the angle
between those sides could be acute or obtuse: you've got an ambiguous case -
as shown in http://www.martinunderwood.f9.co.uk/ASS.gif   He pointed out the
highly appropriate acronym ASS ;-)

I remember near the end of term on the all-the-sevens day 7/7/1977 he showed
us his party trick. Normally a rather humourless, somewhat irascible man, on
this day he let his hair down and showed us that he was ambidextrous: he
could write:

- forwards with left and right hands simultaneously
- forwards with one hand and mirror-image with the other hand simultaneously
- like an old bidirectional matrix printer: from left-to-right on one line
and right-to-left (but still with the letters forwards) on the next line

Good old Bertie Cameron: it's true what the government adverts say: "You
never forget a good teacher".

"Kevin Harper"  wrote in message 
news:p0zXe.111362$G8.2998@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> You might be interested to note that there is actually a cine version of 
> this up for grabs on Ebay at the moment...see 
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6434651945&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:UK:1
>
> and no, before you ask, it's nothing at all to do with me!


Me neither, after looking at there other items I see they have a film about 
York and one on King George 5th Steam train.
For those with Super 8 only.

KW

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005, Martin Underwood wrote:


> for the colour-coding of resistors (brown, black, red, orange, 
> yellow, green, blue, violet, grey, white). Or is it black, brown, 
> ... ? I can never remember. A quick web search says the latter. It 
> also gives a less PC mnemonic 'Bad Boys Ravish Only Young Girls But 
> Violet Gives Willingly'!


Hmm, the one that I was taught, at the ham radio club, way back, is 
unrepeatable in today's improved climate, but this much I can tell 
you: B* B* Rape Our Young Girls But Virgins Go Without.

(Google has it complete, but you didn't get it from me).

"Alan J. Flavell"  wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.62.0509191740500.24819@ppepc56.ph.gla.ac.uk...

>
> Hmm, the one that I was taught, at the ham radio
> club, way back, is unrepeatable in today's improved
> climate, but this much I can tell  you:
> B* B* Rape Our Young Girls But Virgins Go Without.
>
> (Google has it complete, but you didn't get it from me).


Yes, we can't go upsetting the Belgian Bourgeoisie!

-- 
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7069/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:36:20 +0100, "Alan J. Flavell"
 wrote:


>> also gives a less PC mnemonic 'Bad Boys Ravish Only Young Girls But 
>> Violet Gives Willingly'!
>
>Hmm, the one that I was taught, at the ham radio club, way back, is 
>unrepeatable in today's improved climate, but this much I can tell 
>you: B* B* Rape Our Young Girls But Virgins Go Without.


I was taught a cross between the above two: Bad Boys Rape Only Young
Girls But (or Because) Virgins Go Willingly. They somehow got away
with teaching us that in 1995. I certainly had no difficulty
remembering the colour code after that ;-)

On 18 Sep 2005 11:45:41, billetelic_ferroequinologist@hotmail.com
wrote:

>There is a lovely bit in the film where the train is checked
>somewhere beyond Bordesley (?) and the music simply slows
>down and stops, like a wind-up gramophone that has run out
>of oomph, and then starts up again as the train moves off.


There's a brilliant "clang" at that point, when the lower quadrant
arms drop!

Paul Harley

-- 
Remove "eeek" to contact me!

John Rowland wrote:

> "Martin Underwood"  wrote in message
> news:432e8f21$0$97097$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
>>
>> Thirty years on, I can still remember his nmemonic for the trig
>> functions:
>>
>> TAN the Poor Boy
>> COS the Beer is Here
>> SIN of the Public House
>
> Sir Olivers Horse Came Ambling Home To Oliver's Arms. (S=O/H,
> C=A/H, T=O/A for Opposite, adjacent, hypotenuse)


These are too complicated. SOH-CAH-TOA was good enough for me ("Soccer"
played with the "toe").
-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:26:03 GMT someone who may be "Richard J."
 wrote this:-


>These are too complicated. SOH-CAH-TOA was good enough for me ("Soccer"
>played with the "toe").


Alternatively one can think of Sohcahtoa as a word from some remote
island in the Pacific.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

In message , David Hansen 
 writes

>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:26:03 GMT someone who may be "Richard J."
> wrote this:-
>
>>These are too complicated. SOH-CAH-TOA was good enough for me ("Soccer"
>>played with the "toe").
>
>Alternatively one can think of Sohcahtoa as a word from some remote
>island in the Pacific.


Or indeed *as* some remote island in the Pacific!
-- 
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message 
          David Hansen  wrote:


> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:26:03 GMT someone who may be "Richard J."
>  wrote this:-
> 
> >These are too complicated. SOH-CAH-TOA was good enough for me ("Soccer"
> >played with the "toe").
> 
> Alternatively one can think of Sohcahtoa as a word from some remote
> island in the Pacific.
> 
> 


One with an active volcano: Sohcahtoa east of Java.

-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

Richard J. wrote:

> John Rowland wrote:
> >
> > Sir Olivers Horse Came Ambling Home To Oliver's Arms. (S=O/H,
> > C=A/H, T=O/A for Opposite, adjacent, hypotenuse)
>
> These are too complicated. SOH-CAH-TOA was good enough for me ("Soccer"
> played with the "toe").


I learnt:
O/H=S Oranges have segments
A/H=C Apples have cores
O/A=T Oranges are tasty

In message , at
02:23:02 on Tue, 20 Sep 2005, "paul.ingerson@gmail.com"
 remarked:

>I learnt:
>O/H=S Oranges have segments
>A/H=C Apples have cores
>O/A=T Oranges are tasty


Why all the mnemonics? It's easy to tell them apart of you remember just
two strategic values, which also helps when doing "sniff tests".

So:

tan 45 degrees = 1
sin  0 degrees = 0  (a special case of x=sin(x) for small values of x in
                       radians).

Hence Cos is "the other one", cos(0)=1

-- 
Roland Perry

David Hansen wrote:

> 
> Alternatively one can think of Sohcahtoa as a word from some remote
> island in the Pacific.


Remembering Sohcahtoa as a pronouncable word has served me well for
many years, but I still remember the mnemonic "Silly Old Hitler
Climbed A Hill To Overlook Australia" and (sort of back on topic)
"All Stations To Crewe" to remember which functions are positive
in a given quadrant (needed because trig tables were only given for
one quadrant).

Cheers

mark-r

-- 
"Let's meet the panel. You couldn't ask for four finer comedians -
so that answers your next question..."
 -- Humphrey Lyttleton

In article <dgm6sb$a5p$1@lucy.duncodin.org>, Mike Civil
 wrote:


> Not forgetting that the original usage of the word computer referred to
> a human being doing calculations:)


Indeed.  Nevil Shute's book "Slide Rule" (nicely circular reference,
there) which describes how the computers calculated the stresses in the
frames of an airship.  I don't remember him having anything much to do
with railways, unfortunately.

Sam

"Mark Robinson"  wrote in message 
news:432FF191.7ABF0139@simsol.co.uk...

>
> David Hansen wrote:
>>
>> Alternatively one can think of Sohcahtoa as a word from some remote
>> island in the Pacific.
>
> Remembering Sohcahtoa as a pronouncable word has served me well for
> many years, but I still remember the mnemonic "Silly Old Hitler
> Climbed A Hill To Overlook Australia" and (sort of back on topic)
> "All Stations To Crewe" to remember which functions are positive
> in a given quadrant (needed because trig tables were only given for
> one quadrant).


There was a question on University Challenge last night about the inventor 
of the Slide Rule but, there was also one about Peter Kay!

KW

Roland Perry wrote:

> In message ,
> at 02:23:02 on Tue, 20 Sep 2005, "paul.ingerson@gmail.com"
>  remarked:
>> I learnt:
>> O/H=S Oranges have segments
>> A/H=C Apples have cores
>> O/A=T Oranges are tasty
>
> Why all the mnemonics?


If you didn't have mnemonics and you wanted to remember how to work out
a cosine, you'd have to go this this sort of rigmarole ...


> you remember just two strategic values, which also helps when
> doing "sniff tests".
>
> So:
>
> tan 45 degrees = 1
> sin  0 degrees = 0  (a special case of x=sin(x) for small values of
>                        x in radians).
>
> Hence Cos is "the other one", cos(0)=1


So cos must be H/A, or is it A/H?  And is tan O/A or A/O?

Thanks, I'll stick to SOHCAH TOA if you don't mind.

-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In message <UTVXe.112047$G8.107085@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, at 
15:27:48 on Tue, 20 Sep 2005, Richard J.  
remarked:

>> Why all the mnemonics?
>
>If you didn't have mnemonics and you wanted to remember how to work out
>a cosine, you'd have to go this this sort of rigmarole ...
>
>> you remember just two strategic values, which also helps when
>> doing "sniff tests".
>>
>> So:
>>
>> tan 45 degrees = 1
>> sin  0 degrees = 0  (a special case of x=sin(x) for small values of
>>                        x in radians).
>>
>> Hence Cos is "the other one", cos(0)=1
>
>So cos must be H/A, or is it A/H?  And is tan O/A or A/O?
>
>Thanks, I'll stick to SOHCAH TOA if you don't mind.


Suit yourself, but it's far more difficult remembering it by rote, 
rather than understanding what's happening.
-- 
Roland Perry

Richard J. wrote:


> So cos must be H/A, or is it A/H?  And is tan O/A or A/O?


Got to be A/H, because otherwise you'd be taking the cosine of a
number greater than 1, which is impossible.

If you can remember that tan is an increasing function (ie tan60 is
more than tan30), then with a little bit of handwaving and diagrams,
it is pretty obvious that it has to be O/A, so that a small angle
gives a small answer.
 

> Thanks, I'll stick to SOHCAH TOA if you don't mind.


Agreed. Much simpler and easier to remember than any of the
complicated and contrived sayings and phrases that people have come up
with over the years!

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 12:25:05 +0100, Mark Robinson 
wrote:


>
>David Hansen wrote:
>> 
>> Alternatively one can think of Sohcahtoa as a word from some remote
>> island in the Pacific.
>
>Remembering Sohcahtoa as a pronouncable word has served me well for
>many years, but I still remember the mnemonic "Silly Old Hitler
>Climbed A Hill To Overlook Australia" 

"Some Officers Have Curly Auburn Hair 'Til Old Age" was my maths
teacher's version.
<snip>
-- 
                                                             _______
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |\\   //|
 | Charles Ellson: charles@e11son.demon.co.uk        |      | \\ // |
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |  > <  |
                                                            | // \\ |
                                              Alba gu brath |//___\\|

"Sam Wilson"  wrote in message 
news:200920051228331901%Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk...

> In article <dgm6sb$a5p$1@lucy.duncodin.org>, Mike Civil
>  wrote:
>
>> Not forgetting that the original usage of the word computer referred to
>> a human being doing calculations:)

> Indeed.  Nevil Shute's book "Slide Rule" (nicely circular reference,
> there) which describes how the computers calculated the stresses in the
> frames of an airship.  I don't remember him having anything much to do
> with railways, unfortunately.


Not much, but the bridge over the railway at Hilsea station is Norway Road, 
named after Neville Shute Norway.
-- 
David Biddulph

In article <dgpu96$eh$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, David
Biddulph  wrote:


> "Sam Wilson"  wrote in message 
> news:200920051228331901%Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk...
> > [regarding Nevil Shute, aka Neville Shute Norway]
> > ...  I don't remember him having anything much to do
> > with railways, unfortunately.
> 
> Not much, but the bridge over the railway at Hilsea station is Norway Road, 
> named after Neville Shute Norway.


He had a road named after him?  Excellent.  Why Hilsea?

Sam

Sam Wilson wrote:

> In article <dgpu96$eh$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, David
> Biddulph  wrote:
> 
> 
>>"Sam Wilson"  wrote in message 
>>news:200920051228331901%Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk...
>>
>>>[regarding Nevil Shute, aka Neville Shute Norway]
>>>...  I don't remember him having anything much to do
>>>with railways, unfortunately.
>>
>>Not much, but the bridge over the railway at Hilsea station is Norway Road, 
>>named after Neville Shute Norway.
> 
> 
> He had a road named after him?  Excellent.  Why Hilsea?
> 
> Sam

He was one of the founders of the Airspeed company which was based in
Portsmouth, several of the roads arond the former airport site have
aviation related names.

-- 
Philip Morten

In article , Philip Morten
 wrote:


> Sam Wilson wrote:
> > In article <dgpu96$eh$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, David
> > Biddulph  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >>"Sam Wilson"  wrote in message 
> >>news:200920051228331901%Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk...
> >>
> >>>[regarding Nevil Shute, aka Neville Shute Norway]
> >>>...  I don't remember him having anything much to do
> >>>with railways, unfortunately.
> >>
> >>Not much, but the bridge over the railway at Hilsea station is Norway Road, 
> >>named after Neville Shute Norway.
> > 
> > 
> > He had a road named after him?  Excellent.  Why Hilsea?
> > 
> > Sam
> He was one of the founders of the Airspeed company which was based in
> Portsmouth, several of the roads arond the former airport site have
> aviation related names.


Ah, I hadn't realised Airspeed was in Portsmouth - makes perfect sense.

Sam

Philip Morten wrote:


> [Neville Shute Norway] was one of the founders of the Airspeed company which was based in
> Portsmouth...


Chief designer, as I recall. His first design was a glider, the
Airspeed Tern.

Ian

Mike Civil wrote:


> Not forgetting that the original usage of the word computer referred to
> a human being doing calculations:)


And a "typewriter" was originally someone who used a typewriting
machine.

Ian

In message 
          "TheOneKEA"  wrote:


> David Morgan wrote:
> > unclewobbly@talk21.com wrote:
> >
> > > yeah I was waiting for West Ruislip but they cut to an interior shot
> > > just as it was about to show :o(
> >
> > Also the stretch between Leamington and (I think) Dorridge isn't shown.
> > Any other bits of the journey missing?
> 
> The full list of areas where we get to see the driver doing his job:
> 
> Park Royal to Greenford East Junction
> Northolt LU to Gerrards Cross
> West Wycombe to Princes Risborough
> North of Ashendon Junction to Haddenham
> North of Haddenham to Bicester North
> Ardley Tunnel to Banbury South
> North of Leamington Spa to Dorridge
> 
> Personally, I wanted to see the Northolt and Ashendon Junctions. I
> wonder why they cut away at those points.
> 


Changing mags possibly.

-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

In message <dgfavh$6sa$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
          "Paul Scott"  wrote:


> 
> "David Morgan"  wrote in 
> message news:432b2c67$0$97114$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
> > Graeme Wall wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > Changing mags possibly.
> > > 
> > 
> > That thought had also occurred to me, I think the cutaways to the driver 
> > in the 'London/Brighton/5 mins' were for the same reason.
> > 
> > Would a professional film crew in the 1960s have been able to take 2 
> > cameras with them, making sure one was running at all times? Were film 
> > cameras too expensive in the 1960s to do this?
> > 
> > Just curious. --
> > 
> > David
> 
> Possibly not enough room in the cab for two complete cameras? They would be
> pretty large in the 60s I should think.
> 


Lightweight (relatively) hand held 16mm cameras were freely available in the
early 60s.  Zapruder's film of the Kennedy assassination was shot using a
16mm Bell & Howell camera not much bigger than a second generation domestic
video camera.  That's at the lower end of the scale. You wouldn't use one of
those for the railway films as the mag limit was 4 minutes IIRC.  I assume
they used something like an Arriflex with a 20 minute mag.  You could get two
of those in the cab, but as I said earlier that would cause other problems.


-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

"David Morgan"  wrote in 
message news:432b2c67$0$97114$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...

> Graeme Wall wrote:
>
>>
>> Changing mags possibly.
>>
>
> That thought had also occurred to me, I think the cutaways to the driver 
> in the 'London/Brighton/5 mins' were for the same reason.
>
> Would a professional film crew in the 1960s have been able to take 2 
> cameras with them, making sure one was running at all times? Were film 
> cameras too expensive in the 1960s to do this?
>
> Just curious.
> --
>
> David


Possibly not enough room in the cab for two complete cameras? They would be 
pretty large in the 60s I should think.

Paul

In message <432b2c67$0$97114$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net>
          David Morgan  wrote:


> Graeme Wall wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Changing mags possibly.
> > 
> 
> That thought had also occurred to me, I think the cutaways to the driver in
> the  'London/Brighton/5 mins' were for the same reason.
> 
> Would a professional film crew in the 1960s have been able to take 2
> cameras  with them, making sure one was running at all times? Were film
> cameras too  expensive in the 1960s to do this?
> 


Not impossible but unlikely[1].  For a start the POV would alter when you
changed cameras unless you are going to swap them over on the same mount.
Then it doesn't take much longer to just change the mag on a single camera.


[1] It was quite common for the assistant on a documentary shoot to have a
second mute camera to do the cutaways.

-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>