There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
supplies from combi boilers.

There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
answer the question 
"Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
storage".

I will start, because I look after a combi boiler in a semi commercial
kitchen at the Curry Project.  We are very satisfied with the Hot water
there, especially because the hot water is food quality, because it is not
stored.  We can fill the urn up with water from the hot tap.   I have had
this confirmed by the local Environmental Health Officer.

-- 
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk>
Chair, Bradford Curry Project  
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/bradfordcurryproject

In article ,
   Dave Fawthrop  wrote:

> I will start, because I look after a combi boiler in a semi commercial
> kitchen at the Curry Project.  We are very satisfied with the Hot water
> there, especially because the hot water is food quality, because it is
> not stored.  We can fill the urn up with water from the hot tap.


Not many here live in a semi commercial kitchen. ;-)

-- 
*A closed mouth gathers no feet.*

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:18:33 +0100, Dave Fawthrop
 wrote:


>There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
>supplies from combi boilers.
>
>There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
>answer the question 
>"Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
>storage".
>
>I will start, because I look after a combi boiler in a semi commercial
>kitchen at the Curry Project.  We are very satisfied with the Hot water
>there, especially because the hot water is food quality, because it is not
>stored.  We can fill the urn up with water from the hot tap.   I have had
>this confirmed by the local Environmental Health Officer.



This is a pointless survey because

1) Most people here do not run semi-commercial kitchens

2) Some people may have only used a combi boiler and have nothing to
compare it with.


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 11:57:38 +0100, Andy Hall <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote:

| On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:18:33 +0100, Dave Fawthrop
|  wrote:
| 
| >There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
| >supplies from combi boilers.
| >
| >There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
| >answer the question 
| >"Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
| >storage".
| >
| >I will start, because I look after a combi boiler in a semi commercial
| >kitchen at the Curry Project.  We are very satisfied with the Hot water
| >there, especially because the hot water is food quality, because it is not
| >stored.  We can fill the urn up with water from the hot tap.   I have had
| >this confirmed by the local Environmental Health Officer.
| 
| 
| This is a pointless survey because
| 
| 1) Most people here do not run semi-commercial kitchens

That is a downright daft comment.   
Many will have domestic installations, I only included it because for most
hot water systems in the UK it is a * Very Bad Idea* to drink from the Hot
water tap.   I happen to know that Combis are different.
 
| 2) Some people may have only used a combi boiler and have nothing to
| compare it with.

Thy will know if they have problems

-- 
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> 
"Intelligent Design?" my knees say *not*.
"Intelligent Design?" my back says *not*.

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:05:33 +0100, Dave Fawthrop
 wrote:


>On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 11:57:38 +0100, Andy Hall <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote:
>
>| On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:18:33 +0100, Dave Fawthrop
>|  wrote:
>| 
>| >There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
>| >supplies from combi boilers.
>| >
>| >There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
>| >answer the question 
>| >"Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
>| >storage".
>| >
>| >I will start, because I look after a combi boiler in a semi commercial
>| >kitchen at the Curry Project.  We are very satisfied with the Hot water
>| >there, especially because the hot water is food quality, because it is not
>| >stored.  We can fill the urn up with water from the hot tap.   I have had
>| >this confirmed by the local Environmental Health Officer.
>| 
>| 
>| This is a pointless survey because
>| 
>| 1) Most people here do not run semi-commercial kitchens
>
>That is a downright daft comment.   


No it isn't.  Suggesting that the factors that make a combi useful in
a semi commercial kitchen would be important to a domestic user
certainly is.


>Many will have domestic installations, I only included it because for most
>hot water systems in the UK it is a * Very Bad Idea* to drink from the Hot
>water tap.   I happen to know that Combis are different.


You wouldn't actually *drink* from the hot water tap because the water
is at 60 degrees.   If you were to use it for food preparation, it
would almost certainly be  boiled anyway.    In terms of washing
dishes, the issue is pretty much irrelevant.  If they are washed by
hand, then bacteria etc. would be transferred to the dishes in
handling anyway.  If a dishwasher is used, then almost all these days
heat from cold water anyway.

In short, the potable hot water argument for a combi in a domestic
situation is a very thin one.



> 
>| 2) Some people may have only used a combi boiler and have nothing to
>| compare it with.
>
>Thy will know if they have problems


Will they?   You thought that 9lpm was fast enough to fill a bath.  I
think that 2-3 times that is becoming more reasonable.    If somebody
has only ever had the low flow rate of a combi or gas multipoint, they
may not know that one can do a great deal better.


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
   Dave Fawthrop  wrote:

> | This is a pointless survey because
> | 
> | 1) Most people here do not run semi-commercial kitchens

> That is a downright daft comment. Many will have domestic
> installations, I only included it because for most hot water systems in
> the UK it is a * Very Bad Idea* to drink from the Hot water tap.   I
> happen to know that Combis are different.


I've managed perfectly well for many years by boiling cold water to make a
hot drink. Or boiling water in a pan for cooking, etc.

And for a commercial kitchen most would have some form of 'still' to
provide continuous boiling water. 
  

> | 2) Some people may have only used a combi boiler and have nothing to
> | compare it with.

> Thy will know if they have problems


Plenty will only have experienced a storage system with poor head so
problems with showers, or a 'normal' size combi with problems when filling
a bath. And many seem happy with an electric shower which gives inferior
performance to even the worst combi.

So unless you've experienced a decent storage system which can do
everything required of a hot water system - or had experience of a high
flow combi - the survey is rather meaningless.

-- 
*Santa's helpers are subordinate clauses.*

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:34:27 +0100, Andy Hall <andyh@hall.nospam>
wrote:



>>That is a downright daft comment.   
>
>No it isn't.  Suggesting that the factors that make a combi useful in
>a semi commercial kitchen would be important to a domestic user
>certainly is.
>


I think you are being unfair. The question was, how pleased are you
with a combi, and *then* the OP went on to explain why he liked it.
He never suggested all installations were in commercial premises.


>In short, the potable hot water argument for a combi in a domestic
>situation is a very thin one.


However apparently you *can* drink it, if that is important to you.


>>| 2) Some people may have only used a combi boiler and have nothing to
>>| compare it with.
>>
>>Thy will know if they have problems
>
>Will they?   You thought that 9lpm was fast enough to fill a bath.  I
>think that 2-3 times that is becoming more reasonable.    If somebody
>has only ever had the low flow rate of a combi or gas multipoint, they
>may not know that one can do a great deal better.


Again the OP did not ask for *comparisons* but for opinions on each
individuals experience. I drive a small car and am very happy with it
but no doubt most Ferrari drivers would find it a bit of a drag but
again, that wasn't the question was it ?

Andy

In article ,
   Andy Pandy  wrote:

> Again the OP did not ask for *comparisons* but for opinions on each
> individuals experience. I drive a small car and am very happy with it
> but no doubt most Ferrari drivers would find it a bit of a drag but
> again, that wasn't the question was it ?


But the question was presumably about performance? So the car comparison
is fair. Small cars use less fuel and are generally much cheaper to buy
than fast ones. Same as small versus large combis. So a combi covers a
vast range of products with different performance.

-- 
*Avoid clichs like the plague. (They're old hat.) *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:53:18 +0100, Andy Pandy
 wrote:


>On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:34:27 +0100, Andy Hall <andyh@hall.nospam>
>wrote:
>
>
>>>That is a downright daft comment.   
>>
>>No it isn't.  Suggesting that the factors that make a combi useful in
>>a semi commercial kitchen would be important to a domestic user
>>certainly is.
>>
>
>I think you are being unfair. The question was, how pleased are you
>with a combi, and *then* the OP went on to explain why he liked it.
>He never suggested all installations were in commercial premises.


Of course.  My point was that this is irrelevant in the context of
domestic use.



>
>>In short, the potable hot water argument for a combi in a domestic
>>situation is a very thin one.
>
>However apparently you *can* drink it, if that is important to you.


.... and this is meant to be a major decision making criterion?




>
>>>| 2) Some people may have only used a combi boiler and have nothing to
>>>| compare it with.
>>>
>>>Thy will know if they have problems
>>
>>Will they?   You thought that 9lpm was fast enough to fill a bath.  I
>>think that 2-3 times that is becoming more reasonable.    If somebody
>>has only ever had the low flow rate of a combi or gas multipoint, they
>>may not know that one can do a great deal better.
>
>Again the OP did not ask for *comparisons* but for opinions on each
>individuals experience. I drive a small car and am very happy with it
>but no doubt most Ferrari drivers would find it a bit of a drag but
>again, that wasn't the question was it ?
>

That would be like asking small car drivers whether they liked their
small cars when they had never driven a larger or faster one.   Of
course, they might not be able to afford a larger or faster one or
have specific reasons for wanting a small one.

However, if you ask a question where an unknown proportion of the
respondents have experienced nothing else better, it doesn't produce a
very meaningful result.   


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Dave Fawthrop"  wrote in message 
news:5i85i19mcm6u38sd4akeqfjjmevhsn1vk4@4ax.com...

> There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
> supplies from combi boilers.
>
> There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
> answer the question
> "Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
> storage".


For kitchen taps, showers and other low volume uses generally yes subject to 
not being on a water meter at the time. Stopping and starting a combi to 
rinse during washing up wastes a lot of water. For filling a bath a simple 
No. The combi I had was a 100,000 BTU gas model.
Since moving we have a storage system and I prefer it.


>
> I will start, because I look after a combi boiler in a semi commercial
> kitchen at the Curry Project.  We are very satisfied with the Hot water
> there, especially because the hot water is food quality, because it is not
> stored.  We can fill the urn up with water from the hot tap.   I have had
> this confirmed by the local Environmental Health Officer.


Hardly relevant unless you like drinks tepid


John

Dave Fawthrop wrote:


> There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
> supplies from combi boilers.
> 
> There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
> answer the question 
> "Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
> storage".


Aside from the usual problems with self selecting surveys, I can give 
you a few answers to the question:

My own combi (35kW >91% (i.e. 32kW delivered to hot water) Ideal Isar)

General impression - the best combi I have used by far - good control of 
temperature at low flow rates, no surprises (slugs of scalding water 
etc), instant hot water
Hot water flow rate - on the low end of acceptable
Showers - very good
Bath filling - moderate (depending on ground water temp)

This boiler replaced a poorly designed and implemented storage system. 
In comparison it is much better for showers, not as fast for baths, but 
can do more than one. The storage system suffered from lack of head, 
undersized cylinder, and very slow recovery times.


My Mums Combi (29kW 70% (i.e. 20kW delivered to hot water) Myson Midas)

General impression - reasonable control performance in use, temp control 
at low flow rates fluctuates, instant hot water, 'kin large box on wall

Hot water flow rates - unacceptably slow
Showers - ok
Bath filling - very slow (10 - 15 mins)
System replaced a multipoint gas water heater. The combi has slightly 
better control at low flow rates (i.e. multipoint only worked when you 
turned the hot tap full on). The multipoint did not have the small 
internal store of the combi and so had a longer warm up time before 
producing hot water. It did however include flow regulation to maintain 
the water temp at the selected temperature - so there was no need to 
turn the tap down to get hot water.


Neighbours Combi (old design of Valiant - not sure of spec)

General impression - crude
How water flow - slow
Showers - unusable (water temp switches between warm and unheated)
Baths - very slow




-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Andy Hall <andyh@hall.nospam>  wrote:


>
> In short, the potable hot water argument for a combi in a domestic
> situation is a very thin one.
>

I suppose that if you want a cup of tea in a hurry, you can fill the kettle
from the hot tap rather than the cold.

Not sure I'd want to trade that for taking an hour and a half to fill the
bath, though! <g>
-- 
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

In article <4322e1d2$0$1323$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,
   John Rumm  wrote:

> This boiler replaced a poorly designed and implemented storage system. 
> In comparison it is much better for showers, not as fast for baths, but 
> can do more than one.


Unless you're meaning two bathrooms, a decent storage system with a fast
recovery cylinder should be capable of re-heating the cylinder in the time
most would take to have a bath. If there is a regular need for two baths
at the same time, I'd say you need a larger than normal storage system.

-- 
*Why are a wise man and a wise guy opposites? *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Hi;

I went from the old fashion storage with a header tank to Combi.

I gain the area used by the Hot Water Tank (I have a smal semi) and
lost the problomatic cold water header tank in the attic

Very rarely use the bath, rather an electric shower, and pay one bill
for all energy used.

I did install from scratch a Combi that got round my main Combi
complaint in  a flat of mine, the complaint is the wait for the hot
water to the Kitchen sink from the far away Combi. (In the flat I sited
the Combi beside the sink). I guess the installation using existing
Stored water pipes was not the correct thing to do, but we all know the
pressure of making a buck.

I cannot help but wonder at modern Combis being sited miles from the
target tap. A new house has the boiler sited in the Garage. Bloody
Regs, I bet.

Regards
Ian

In article ,
    wrote:

> I went from the old fashion storage with a header tank to Combi.

> I gain the area used by the Hot Water Tank (I have a smal semi) and
> lost the problomatic cold water header tank in the attic


I'd like to know what's 'problematic' about a tank with a ball valve? It's
yonks old technology and should work perfectly for many years with
absolutely no attention.


> Very rarely use the bath, rather an electric shower, and pay one bill
> for all energy used.


Well, if you don't use a bath and you're happy with an electric shower, so
be it.


> I did install from scratch a Combi that got round my main Combi
> complaint in  a flat of mine, the complaint is the wait for the hot
> water to the Kitchen sink from the far away Combi. (In the flat I sited
> the Combi beside the sink). I guess the installation using existing
> Stored water pipes was not the correct thing to do, but we all know the
> pressure of making a buck.


No - this is a DIY group and most would be advised to design for
requirements - not making a fast buck.


> I cannot help but wonder at modern Combis being sited miles from the
> target tap. A new house has the boiler sited in the Garage. Bloody
> Regs, I bet.


Since there will be several hot 'taps' in the average house, it's not
possible to have the water heater or store close to all of them.

-- 
*He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless, dead.  

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Andy Hall wrote:

> In short, the potable hot water argument for a combi in a domestic
> situation is a very thin one.
> 

	And, if you have a water softener in circuit, just not feasible.

> 

    You thought that 9lpm was fast enough to fill a bath.  I

> think that 2-3 times that is becoming more reasonable.    If somebody
> has only ever had the low flow rate of a combi or gas multipoint, they
> may not know that one can do a great deal better.


	Stored systems can easily do 45l/m

	Regards
	Capitol

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:18:33 +0100, Dave Fawthrop wrote:


> There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
> supplies from combi boilers.
> 
> There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
> answer the question 
> "Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
> storage".
> 
> I will start, because I look after a combi boiler in a semi commercial
> kitchen at the Curry Project.  We are very satisfied with the Hot water
> there, especially because the hot water is food quality, because it is not
> stored.  We can fill the urn up with water from the hot tap.   I have had
> this confirmed by the local Environmental Health Officer.


Earlier today I tried to find a post a did a few year ago both relevant to
this topic. 

1) Contained a list with a couple of dozen criteria which might
need to be considered when choosing a heating system. Needless to say the
matter of combi v. stored was addressed therein.

There is no "one size fits all". Why some people should find this such an
unattractive idea I can only make wild speculations.

The other post I found...

To parody Fowler on the subject of split infinitives:

The combi questioner can be divided in several groups.

Firstly, those who neither know nor care.
        These are the happiest of all especially if someone else pays the bills.

Secondly, those who don't know and do care.
        They post to uk.d-i-y.

Thirdly, those who know and always approve.
        We all know who they are.

Fourthly those who know and always condemn.
        To those of you who are in this group I beg you to read on. I suspect
that this group is larger than it might otherwise be on account of two
factors. Firstly there are a proportion of professional installers who for
their own reasons prefer to always fit a combi regardless of the needs of
the customer. Secondly those in the third group whose style of advocacy could be
described as abrasive.

Fifthly those who know and discriminate.
        There are quite a number of criteria which have to be considered.
                User's informed preferences.
                User's previous experience.
                User's prejudice.
                Size of dwelling:     Space v. cylinder benefits.
                User's HW usage patterns.
                Instant Availability v. Storage heat losses.
                Number and size of simultaneous or back-to-back HW demands
                        (Showers v. baths.)
                Quality of mains supply.
                Pre-Existing arrangements, cost and upheaval implications.
                ...

-- 
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk 
Gas fitting FAQ  http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

I've found combi's acceptable for baths and bathroom sinks (flow rate OK, 
temperature just about OK if throttled correctly) but in the kitchen you 
need somewhat hotter water particularly for "spicing up" a sink of dishes 
which has started to cool off. I used to use a kettle but have now put one 
of the Screwfix electric tank heaters under the sink, on a second tap. 
Perhaps not the greenest solution but very convenient.

In article , Newshound wrote:

> I've found combi's acceptable for baths and bathroom sinks (flow rate OK, 
> temperature just about OK if throttled correctly) but in the kitchen you 
> need somewhat hotter water particularly for "spicing up" a sink of dishes 
> which has started to cool off. 


My combi is next to the sink so it's dead easy to tweak the HW temperature


> I used to use a kettle but have now put one 
> of the Screwfix electric tank heaters under the sink, on a second tap. 
> Perhaps not the greenest solution but very convenient.


If the alternative would mean a long dead leg from the combi or HW tank it 
might be the greenest solution.

-- 
Tony Bryer SDA UK  'Software to build on'  http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

Set Square  wrote:

> In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
> Andy Hall <andyh@hall.nospam>  wrote:
> 
>>
>> In short, the potable hot water argument for a combi in a domestic
>> situation is a very thin one.
>>
> I suppose that if you want a cup of tea in a hurry, you can fill the kettle
> from the hot tap rather than the cold.


Many newer kettles have no problem boiling 130ml or so of water, in 20 secs
or so, from cold.
Hot wouldn't speed it up much.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Ian Stirling   wrote:


> Set Square  wrote:
>> In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
>> Andy Hall <andyh@hall.nospam>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> In short, the potable hot water argument for a combi in a domestic
>>> situation is a very thin one.
>>>
>> I suppose that if you want a cup of tea in a hurry, you can fill the
>> kettle from the hot tap rather than the cold.
>
> Many newer kettles have no problem boiling 130ml or so of water, in
> 20 secs or so, from cold.
> Hot wouldn't speed it up much.


If you read the rest of my post - which you snipped - you will realise that
the bit about faster tea was a bit tongue in cheek! [Filling with hot *will*
boil faster - but the difference may be almost negligible, as you imply].
-- 
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

In message , Dave Fawthrop 
 writes

>There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
>supplies from combi boilers.
>

You think another thread will help.


>There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
>answer the question
>"Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
>storage".
>

Yes and no :-)

It all depends. I have previous houses with combis, where I was happy 
with them - as they best met the requirements of that situation.

However, I would not want one in my current house as I don't think it 
would meet the requirements so well as a stored HW system
-- 
Chris French

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


> Unless you're meaning two bathrooms, a decent storage system with a fast
> recovery cylinder should be capable of re-heating the cylinder in the time
> most would take to have a bath. 


Yup, what you say is right for a well designed storage system. However 
mine wasn't! Recovery time after running a bath was approx 45 mins! 
(with the boiler cycling like it was in the tour de france).

So unless you had a nice long soak, it was not ready to run another 
straight away after (or even top up the current one with hot water).

The cylinder was a bit undersized for the bath (large corner bath, 
450x900mm cylinder).

You also used to get lots of air in the system , and while having a 
shower it was easy to drain the header tank (which was not plumbed with 
the dedicated shower cold feed set lower than the cylinder feed - so it 
could get rather hot without warning).

I did tinker with a few bits of it to make it a bit more usable (like 
new shower head with slightly lower flow requirement to save the 
scalding, and upped the cylinder temp to about 75, so that way you could 
add enough cold to be able to fill the bath, upgraded the controls, and 
replumbed the vent so that it stopped sucking in great gobs of air to 
the CH circuit), but never CBA to set about it in a big way and re 
design it from scratch.  So all in all I was not too sorry to replace it.


-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

In article <43235ba7$0$17458$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>,
   Ian Stirling  wrote:

> > I suppose that if you want a cup of tea in a hurry, you can fill the
> > kettle from the hot tap rather than the cold.

> Many newer kettles have no problem boiling 130ml or so of water, in 20
> secs or so, from cold. Hot wouldn't speed it up much.


Hope you're not telling us you make tea in a cup? ;-)

-- 
*Why do we say something is out of whack?  What is a whack?

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 01:24:41 +0100, chris French wrote:


> In message , Dave Fawthrop 
>  writes
>>There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
>>supplies from combi boilers.
>>
> You think another thread will help.
> 
>>There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
>>answer the question
>>"Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
>>storage".
>>
> Yes and no :-)
> 
> It all depends. I have previous houses with combis, where I was happy 
> with them - as they best met the requirements of that situation.
> 
> However, I would not want one in my current house as I don't think it 
> would meet the requirements so well as a stored HW system


"Yes and no" answers seem to be so last week at the moment. 8-;

-- 
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk 
Gas fitting FAQ  http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

In article ,
   Ed Sirett  wrote:

> > However, I would not want one in my current house as I don't think it 
> > would meet the requirements so well as a stored HW system

> "Yes and no" answers seem to be so last week at the moment. 8-;


Just wait till Drivel comes back from holiday. ;-)

-- 
*A person who smiles in the face of adversity probably has a scapegoat *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

>> In short, the potable hot water argument for a combi in a domestic
>> situation is a very thin one.
>
> However apparently you *can* drink it, if that is important to you.


Actually, I use the potable nature of instantaneously heated water quite a
lot. I always fill the pan from the hot tap when cooking vegetables or
pasta. Saves quite a few minutes. My system isn't a combi, though. It is a
heat bank, so has no trouble with 40lpm+.

Christian.

> I used to use a kettle but have now put one of the Screwfix electric
> tank heaters under the sink, on a second tap.
> Perhaps not the greenest solution but very convenient.


It's probably not as bad a solution environmentally as you think. There is
less wastage of heat and water (no dead legs), which is good. Also, remember
that the carbon dioxide footprint of using electrical energy isn't worse
than the gas in proportion to the cost. Some electricity is not carbon
fuelled. The additional cost is as much about distribution and generation as
thermodynamic inefficiency.

Christian.

Yes.

Dave Fawthrop wrote:

> There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot water
> supplies from combi boilers.
>
> There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
> answer the question
> "Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
> storage".


Cor, what a lof of fuss some people have made about answering this...

I've lived in 9 different premises in my 30-odd years on this planet
and obviously visited friends relatives, stayed in hotels blah, blah in
countless others.

Of the 9:
4 were stored hot water systems.
1 was a university halls of residence with a giant site wide heating
system
4 were combi boilers.

Obviously the best for everything was the halls of residence.  Never
ending hot water at a million liters a minute (approximately ;-)

Of the combis only my most recent has given truly acceptable
performance.  It's a new Worcester Bosch Greenstar 35kw.  We only have
a single bathroom and use a dishwasher for 95% of dishes.  It provides
a very nice shower admittedly at the lower end of acceptable pressure
range.  The bath is filled within about 10 minutes which I gather some
people think is a long time.  Personally I never have 'emergency' baths
and can easily kill 10 minutes.  It does a very, very good job of
heating the house and with the trv's on most rads we have a constant
temperature throughout the house.  I think this was actually more luck
than judgement, but the modulating ability of the boiler does keep the
flow ticking over at a low temp in milder times.

The other 3 combis were smaller and older and performance varied, from
utterly unnaceptable to liveable with.  A friend of mine is selling a
house where the combi will take an hour to fill the bath.  I didn't
believe it until he showed me the flow he was getting.  I can't help
but think something is wrong with it.

Of the stored systems all were open systems so relying on gravity for
the pressure.  The only one to provide a good shower was boosted by a
noisy pump.  The tank was quite small and would run out if we had 4
people to get through the shower.

If I had more bathrooms than I do now I'd like to fit a sealed system
with a stored water capability, but I'll do this as part of an
extension if I ever have one.

So there you go.  I do think combi's have there uses but I'm aware of
the limitations as well and would look to a different solution in more
demanding cirumstances.

--
Steve F

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 00:12:58 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
 scrawled:


>Just wait till Drivel comes back from holiday. ;-)


Hmm, after seeing the lack of his recent posts I was hoping he'd gone
somewhere else. You've just ruined my already bad day, cheers!
-- 
Stuart @ SJW Electrical

Please Reply to group

"Fitz"  wrote in message
news:1126522407.413234.237280@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> Dave Fawthrop wrote:
> > There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot
water
> > supplies from combi boilers.
> >
> > There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
> > answer the question
> > "Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
> > storage".
>
> Cor, what a lof of fuss some people have made about answering this...
>
> I've lived in 9 different premises in my 30-odd years on this planet
> and obviously visited friends relatives, stayed in hotels blah, blah in
> countless others.
>
> Of the 9:
> 4 were stored hot water systems.
> 1 was a university halls of residence with a giant site wide heating
> system
> 4 were combi boilers.
>
> Obviously the best for everything was the halls of residence.  Never
> ending hot water at a million liters a minute (approximately ;-)
>
> Of the combis only my most recent has given truly acceptable
> performance.  It's a new Worcester Bosch Greenstar 35kw.  We only have
> a single bathroom and use a dishwasher for 95% of dishes.  It provides
> a very nice shower admittedly at the lower end of acceptable pressure
> range.  The bath is filled within about 10 minutes which I gather some
> people think is a long time.  Personally I never have 'emergency' baths
> and can easily kill 10 minutes.  It does a very, very good job of
> heating the house and with the trv's on most rads we have a constant
> temperature throughout the house.  I think this was actually more luck
> than judgement, but the modulating ability of the boiler does keep the
> flow ticking over at a low temp in milder times.
>
> The other 3 combis were smaller and older and performance varied, from
> utterly unnaceptable to liveable with.  A friend of mine is selling a
> house where the combi will take an hour to fill the bath.  I didn't
> believe it until he showed me the flow he was getting.  I can't help
> but think something is wrong with it.
>
> Of the stored systems all were open systems so relying on gravity for
> the pressure.  The only one to provide a good shower was boosted by a
> noisy pump.  The tank was quite small and would run out if we had 4
> people to get through the shower.
>
> If I had more bathrooms than I do now I'd like to fit a sealed system
> with a stored water capability, but I'll do this as part of an
> extension if I ever have one.
>
> So there you go.  I do think combi's have there uses but I'm aware of
> the limitations as well and would look to a different solution in more
> demanding cirumstances.


You have made an assessment on limited experience of combis. Most of this
thread is utter bollocks

The highest flowrate are floor mounted combis: W-Bosch Highflow 440, Vokera,
Potterton Powermax, Ideal Istor, Viessmann 333, ACV Heatmaster (Stainless
steel hybrid of thermal store, serving the CH, and unvented cylinder and
heat exchanger running through the store, which will deliver 38 litres/min
for 10 mins then drop to 15 litres/min).  Beat that!!  "never" runs out of
hot water. Hard to on any system.

Wall mounted models with v good flowrates are the Alpha cd50 and
ECO-Hometec.

Want instant water at the taps?  Some have a small vessel inside, some have
a "keep warm" heat exchanger, and all can have a secondary circulation loop.
Dead leg pipe is a problem with "all" systems,

As many of the idiots on this thread spurted forth, combis are full of silly
old wives tales, which are untrue, pasing off old crap models as the norm.
Want two baths to be filled simultaneously?  One can do it.  Just choose the
model.

Then there is the high flowrate Japanese multi-points which belt out the
flowrates.

I read back on some of the threads.  I believe Plowman is shagging Mary.  Is
that true?

"Dave Plowman (News)"  wrote in message
news:4da8f20fb0dave@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article ,
>    Ed Sirett  wrote:

> > > However, I would not want one in my current house as I don't think it
> > > would meet the requirements so well as a stored HW system
>
> > "Yes and no" answers seem to be so last week at the moment. 8-;
>
> Just wait till Drivel comes back from holiday. ;-)


I am and I believe you are shagging Mary.

In message <43260955$0$91994$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>, 
Doctor Drivel  writes

>
>>
>> So there you go.  I do think combi's have there uses but I'm aware of
>> the limitations as well and would look to a different solution in more
>> demanding cirumstances.
>
>You have made an assessment on limited experience of combis. Most of this
>thread is utter bollocks
>
>
>Then there is the high flowrate Japanese multi-points which belt out the
>flowrates.
>
>I read back on some of the threads.  I believe Plowman is shagging Mary.  Is
>that true?
>

Someone's taking the piss here

the spelling's too good


Anyway, dIMM's been put away [1] for causing the floods in Austria and 
New Orleans - it was his hacksaw and nothing whatsoever to do with the 
so called climatic conditions

[1] overriding the section he's under

-- 
geoff

"raden"  wrote in message
news:Y$$dDW3C1gJDFwfP@ntlworld.com...

> In message <43260955$0$91994$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
> Doctor Drivel  writes
> >
> >>
> >> So there you go.  I do think combi's have there uses but I'm aware of
> >> the limitations as well and would look to a different solution in more
> >> demanding cirumstances.
> >
> >You have made an assessment on limited experience of combis. Most of this
> >thread is utter bollocks
> >
> >
> >Then there is the high flowrate Japanese multi-points which belt out the
> >flowrates.
> >
> >I read back on some of the threads.  I believe Plowman is shagging Mary.
Is
> >that true?
> >
> Someone's taking the piss here
>
> the spelling's too good
>
> Anyway, dIMM's been put away [1] for causing the floods in Austria and
> New Orleans -


Maxie, you should keep a handle on that Oriental enchantress. She is a
walking disaster area.

Doctor Drivel wrote:



> Most of this thread is utter bollocks


I guess it will be soon.

Nice hols?

Or have you only just managed to find a news provider who will give you 
an account?


> As many of the idiots on this thread spurted forth, combis are full of silly
> old wives tales, which are untrue, pasing off old crap models as the norm.


Old crap models *are* the norm. Many boilers last 20 years, so on 
average installed combis are going to be at least 10 years old.

Many people install based on price not performance. So loads of people 
go for 24kW models. Lots of these will be old 70% efficient jobs that 
can only throw 18kW of heat at the water.

So all the high flow rate boiler catalogue porn you can dredge up is 
mostly irrelevant since it does not reflect the experience of the 
majority of people who have exposure to combis. The thread is about 
experience remember, not what you can find on a web site.


> I read back on some of the threads.  I believe Plowman is shagging Mary.  


Guess he has to do something while your mother is menstruating... still 
I am sure you will get used to the taste.

-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

"John Rumm"  wrote in message
news:432611a6$0$17468$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...


> Doctor Drivel wrote:
>
> > Most of this thread is utter bollocks


...and you have written a lot of the utter bollocks.

Appalling person, appalling.

>Many people install based on price not performance. So loads of people 
>go for 24kW models. Lots of these will be old 70% efficient jobs that 
>can only throw 18kW of heat at the water.


Is this what the power rating is? So a 24kW model *uses* 24kW but does
not *provide* 24kW of power?

Peter wrote:


>>Many people install based on price not performance. So loads of people 
>>go for 24kW models. Lots of these will be old 70% efficient jobs that 
>>can only throw 18kW of heat at the water.
> 
> 
> Is this what the power rating is? So a 24kW model *uses* 24kW but does
> not *provide* 24kW of power?


Yes exactly. Most times you see a power rating stated for a boiler, it 
is an input power - i.e. that is its rate of energy consumption. The 
amount that comes out in a way useful to you (as opposed to just 
straight out the flue), is a measure of the efficiency.


-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 00:03:49 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
 wrote:



>
>As many of the idiots on this thread spurted forth, combis are full of silly
>old wives tales, which are untrue, pasing off old crap models as the norm.



Gosh, and here was me thinking that they had a burner and a heat
exchanger.    What do the old wives tales do?   Presumably they talk
up the performance like you do.....


How was Eyebyeza?   Paella and chips OK?



-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 01:15:12 +0100, Peter wrote:


>>Many people install based on price not performance. So loads of people 
>>go for 24kW models. Lots of these will be old 70% efficient jobs that 
>>can only throw 18kW of heat at the water.
> 
> Is this what the power rating is? So a 24kW model *uses* 24kW but does
> not *provide* 24kW of power?


Generally the older and less powerful boilers are quoted in what they do
(output). Whilst the newer and more powerful models are listed by what
they eat (input). 

Read the small print in your catalogues. 

-- 
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk 
Gas fitting FAQ  http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

John Rumm wrote:

> Guess he has to do something while


You piece of filth, Rumm. Why post stuff like that? So
we have to put up not only with Drivel, but juvenile
louts too? Wash your mouth out with Wright's soap,
and say sorry (to the group - not Drivel).

Chris Bacon wrote:


> and say sorry (to the group - not Drivel).


I will say sorry to Dave for the implied suggestion...

Now stop being such and old woman.


-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

Doctor Drivel wrote:

> "Fitz"  wrote in message
> news:1126522407.413234.237280@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Dave Fawthrop wrote:
> > > There is a disagreement in another thread as to the adequacy of hot
> water
> > > supplies from combi boilers.
> > >
> > > There must be lots of people here with them, so will these people please
> > > answer the question
> > > "Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
> > > storage".
> >
> > Cor, what a lof of fuss some people have made about answering this...
> >
> > I've lived in 9 different premises in my 30-odd years on this planet
> > and obviously visited friends relatives, stayed in hotels blah, blah in
> > countless others.
> >
> > Of the 9:
> > 4 were stored hot water systems.
> > 1 was a university halls of residence with a giant site wide heating
> > system
> > 4 were combi boilers.
> >
> > Obviously the best for everything was the halls of residence.  Never
> > ending hot water at a million liters a minute (approximately ;-)
> >
> > Of the combis only my most recent has given truly acceptable
> > performance.  It's a new Worcester Bosch Greenstar 35kw.  We only have
> > a single bathroom and use a dishwasher for 95% of dishes.  It provides
> > a very nice shower admittedly at the lower end of acceptable pressure
> > range.  The bath is filled within about 10 minutes which I gather some
> > people think is a long time.  Personally I never have 'emergency' baths
> > and can easily kill 10 minutes.  It does a very, very good job of
> > heating the house and with the trv's on most rads we have a constant
> > temperature throughout the house.  I think this was actually more luck
> > than judgement, but the modulating ability of the boiler does keep the
> > flow ticking over at a low temp in milder times.
> >
> > The other 3 combis were smaller and older and performance varied, from
> > utterly unnaceptable to liveable with.  A friend of mine is selling a
> > house where the combi will take an hour to fill the bath.  I didn't
> > believe it until he showed me the flow he was getting.  I can't help
> > but think something is wrong with it.
> >
> > Of the stored systems all were open systems so relying on gravity for
> > the pressure.  The only one to provide a good shower was boosted by a
> > noisy pump.  The tank was quite small and would run out if we had 4
> > people to get through the shower.
> >
> > If I had more bathrooms than I do now I'd like to fit a sealed system
> > with a stored water capability, but I'll do this as part of an
> > extension if I ever have one.
> >
> > So there you go.  I do think combi's have there uses but I'm aware of
> > the limitations as well and would look to a different solution in more
> > demanding cirumstances.
>
> You have made an assessment on limited experience of combis. Most of this
> thread is utter bollocks
>
> The highest flowrate are floor mounted combis: W-Bosch Highflow 440, Vokera,
> Potterton Powermax, Ideal Istor, Viessmann 333, ACV Heatmaster (Stainless
> steel hybrid of thermal store, serving the CH, and unvented cylinder and
> heat exchanger running through the store, which will deliver 38 litres/min
> for 10 mins then drop to 15 litres/min).  Beat that!!  "never" runs out of
> hot water. Hard to on any system.


Welcome back IMM. The high flows rates of the ACV attracted me. I
looked up the ACV (I have never heard of it) and it looks a substantial
piece of combi with a stainless steel tank in tank, which is a cylinder
immersed completely inside another cylinder. The price is about £2,300
with quality to boot. That sounds expensive, yet if you buy a stainless
steel tank in tank, or just a standard stainless steel unvented
cylinder and a quality condensing boiler of 35kW, after buying all the
controls, you end up paying more than £2.3 K. It is one of the most
efficient boilers in sedbuk and the dealer said they have good backup.
I am about to order a Rinnai for two Triton tower showers and a boiler
for the CH.  I may reconsider and look at the ACV more depth. It is
slightly bigger than a Powermax about 600mm square, and 5.5 foot high,
making it easy enough to go in lofts. The Rinnai never runs out hot
water so can deliver the flow and no time limit to showers.

I'll let people know what I do and how the Rinnai performs if and when
it is installed. I looked at the ACV manual and can't figure out in
detail how it works. Any ideas? Do I have to be BBA approved to fit it?


> Wall mounted models with v good flowrates are the Alpha cd50 and
> ECO-Hometec.
>
> Want instant water at the taps?  Some have a small vessel inside, some have
> a "keep warm" heat exchanger, and all can have a secondary circulation loop.
> Dead leg pipe is a problem with "all" systems,
>
> As many of the idiots on this thread spurted forth, combis are full of silly
> old wives tales, which are untrue, pasing off old crap models as the norm.
> Want two baths to be filled simultaneously?  One can do it.  Just choose the
> model.
>
> Then there is the high flowrate Japanese multi-points which belt out the
> flowrates.
>
> I read back on some of the threads.  I believe Plowman is shagging Mary.  Is
> that true?

"Chris Bacon"  wrote in message
news:43268b09_3@x-privat.org...

> John Rumm wrote:
> > Guess he has to do something while
>
> You piece of filth, Rumm. Why post stuff like that? So
> we have to put up not only with Drivel, but juvenile
> louts too? Wash your mouth out with Wright's soap,
> and say sorry (to the group - not Drivel).


The Rumm bugger neds to boil his head.

In article <43260955$0$91994$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
   Doctor Drivel  wrote:

> As many of the idiots on this thread spurted forth, combis are full of
> silly old wives tales, which are untrue, pasing off old crap models as
> the norm. Want two baths to be filled simultaneously?  One can do it. 
> Just choose the model.


Some of us are used to 25 litres plus per minute of piping hot water to
fill our baths regardless of external conditions.

I'd be interested in your domestic combi on a domestic gas supply that can
do 50 litres plus of water at 60C regardless of external conditions?

But I'll not hold my breath.

-- 
*A nest isn't empty until all their stuff is out of the attic

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article <43260993$0$47507$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
   Doctor Drivel  wrote:

> > > "Yes and no" answers seem to be so last week at the moment. 8-;
> >
> > Just wait till Drivel comes back from holiday. ;-)

> I am and I believe you are shagging Mary.


Sad the holiday didn't fix your brain.

-- 
*The more people I meet, the more I like my dog.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article <43269de5$0$22925$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>,
   John Rumm  wrote:

> Chris Bacon wrote:

> > and say sorry (to the group - not Drivel).

> I will say sorry to Dave for the implied suggestion...


Don't ever worry about me. I've been insulted by experts. ;-)

-- 
*Why are they called apartments, when they're all stuck together? *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
    wrote:

> Welcome back IMM.


The sock puppet returns...

-- 
*Why doesn't glue stick to the inside of the bottle?

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:08:33 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
 wrote:

| In article <43260955$0$91994$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
|    Doctor Drivel  wrote:
| > As many of the idiots on this thread spurted forth, combis are full of
| > silly old wives tales, which are untrue, pasing off old crap models as
| > the norm. Want two baths to be filled simultaneously?  One can do it. 
| > Just choose the model.
| 
| Some of us are used to 25 litres plus per minute of piping hot water to
| fill our baths regardless of external conditions.

Maybe I have seen that a few times in hotels, never at home.   I find 8l/m,
measured, perfectly satisfactory.   Fills a bath in about 7 mins, as would
the proposed combi. I have set my conventional system to simulate the
proposed combi and there is little difference between what I have now and
the proposed combi.   I have no idea where people get 15 mins for a bath
from, maybe it is an Urban Legend.
-- 
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> 
"Intelligent Design?" my knees say *not*.
"Intelligent Design?" my back says *not*.

In message , Andy Hall 
<andyh@hall.nospam> writes

>On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 00:03:49 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>As many of the idiots on this thread spurted forth, combis are full of silly
>>old wives tales, which are untrue, pasing off old crap models as the norm.
>
>
>Gosh, and here was me thinking that they had a burner and a heat
>exchanger.    What do the old wives tales do?   Presumably they talk
>up the performance like you do.....
>
>
>How was Eyebyeza?


Nah I reckon it was one of those "clinics" in Bangkok

Just not the man he used to be .... so to speak

-- 
geoff

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:03:03 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
 scrawled:


>In article <43260993$0$47507$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
>   Doctor Drivel  wrote:
>> > > "Yes and no" answers seem to be so last week at the moment. 8-;
>> >
>> > Just wait till Drivel comes back from holiday. ;-)
>
>> I am and I believe you are shagging Mary.
>
>Sad the holiday didn't fix your brain.


Not as sad as the fact that his plane didn't crash.
-- 
Stuart @ SJW Electrical

Please Reply to group

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:54:06 +0100, Dave Fawthrop
 wrote:


>On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:08:33 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
> wrote:
>
>| In article <43260955$0$91994$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
>|    Doctor Drivel  wrote:
>| > As many of the idiots on this thread spurted forth, combis are full of
>| > silly old wives tales, which are untrue, pasing off old crap models as
>| > the norm. Want two baths to be filled simultaneously?  One can do it. 
>| > Just choose the model.
>| 
>| Some of us are used to 25 litres plus per minute of piping hot water to
>| fill our baths regardless of external conditions.
>
>Maybe I have seen that a few times in hotels, never at home.   I find 8l/m,
>measured, perfectly satisfactory.   Fills a bath in about 7 mins, as would
>the proposed combi. 


56 litres?  That would bearly be enough to paddle in.


>I have set my conventional system to simulate the
>proposed combi and there is little difference between what I have now and
>the proposed combi.   I have no idea where people get 15 mins for a bath
>from, maybe it is an Urban Legend.


Not really - just simple arithmetic for what is required for a
standard sized bath as opposed to a bidet.


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article , Dave Fawthrop
 writes

>On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:08:33 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
> wrote:
>
>| In article <43260955$0$91994$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
>|    Doctor Drivel  wrote:
>| > As many of the idiots on this thread spurted forth, combis are full of
>| > silly old wives tales, which are untrue, pasing off old crap models as
>| > the norm. Want two baths to be filled simultaneously?  One can do it. 
>| > Just choose the model.
>| 
>| Some of us are used to 25 litres plus per minute of piping hot water to
>| fill our baths regardless of external conditions.
>
>Maybe I have seen that a few times in hotels, never at home.   I find 8l/m,
>measured, perfectly satisfactory.   Fills a bath in about 7 mins, as would
>the proposed combi. I have set my conventional system to simulate the
>proposed combi and there is little difference between what I have now and
>the proposed combi.   I have no idea where people get 15 mins for a bath
>from, maybe it is an Urban Legend.


What do you do, just wash your feet? or are you talking about a baby
bath? 56 litres is about half of a small bath so its easy to see where
15 mins comes from, its the time a 8l/m combi takes to fill up a small
bath of 100l. My bath takes 180l, I'll leave that calculation to you 
-- 
David

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 08:38:17 +0100, David 
wrote:

| In article , Dave Fawthrop
|  writes
| >On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:08:33 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
| > wrote:
| >
| >| In article <43260955$0$91994$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
| >|    Doctor Drivel  wrote:
| >| > As many of the idiots on this thread spurted forth, combis are full of
| >| > silly old wives tales, which are untrue, pasing off old crap models as
| >| > the norm. Want two baths to be filled simultaneously?  One can do it. 
| >| > Just choose the model.
| >| 
| >| Some of us are used to 25 litres plus per minute of piping hot water to
| >| fill our baths regardless of external conditions.
| >
| >Maybe I have seen that a few times in hotels, never at home.   I find 8l/m,
| >measured, perfectly satisfactory.   Fills a bath in about 7 mins, as would
| >the proposed combi. I have set my conventional system to simulate the
| >proposed combi and there is little difference between what I have now and
| >the proposed combi.   I have no idea where people get 15 mins for a bath
| >from, maybe it is an Urban Legend.
| 
| What do you do, just wash your feet? or are you talking about a baby
| bath? 56 litres is about half of a small bath so its easy to see where
| 15 mins comes from, its the time a 8l/m combi takes to fill up a small
| bath of 100l. My bath takes 180l, I'll leave that calculation to you 

I am describing experiments done with a 10 litre bucket, a stop watch and a
digital thermometer.   I then used the full bath and found it satisfactory.


-- 
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> 
"Intelligent Design?" my knees say *not*.
"Intelligent Design?" my back says *not*.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article ,
>     wrote:
> > Welcome back IMM.
>
> The sock puppet returns...


The leader of the moron pack is at it again. I have literally given put
reading most of what they write as it is totally predicable and not
much value at all.


>
> --
> *Why doesn't glue stick to the inside of the bottle?
>
>     Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
>                   To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article ,
>     wrote:
> > Welcome back IMM.
>
> The sock puppet returns...


The leader of the moron pack is at it again. I have literally given put
reading most of what they write as it is totally predicable and not
much value at all.


> --
> *Why doesn't glue stick to the inside of the bottle?
>
>     Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
>                   To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article ,
>     wrote:
> > Welcome back IMM.
>
> The sock puppet returns...


The leader of the moron pack is still at it. Most of this thread is
infested with them.


> --
> *Why doesn't glue stick to the inside of the bottle?
>
>     Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
>                   To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Fawthrop
 writes

>On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 08:38:17 +0100, David 
>wrote:
>
>| In article , Dave Fawthrop
>|  writes
>| >On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:08:33 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
>| > wrote:
>| >
>| >| In article <43260955$0$91994$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
>| >|    Doctor Drivel  wrote:
>| >| > As many of the idiots on this thread spurted forth, combis are full of
>| >| > silly old wives tales, which are untrue, pasing off old crap models as
>| >| > the norm. Want two baths to be filled simultaneously?  One can do it. 
>| >| > Just choose the model.
>| >| 
>| >| Some of us are used to 25 litres plus per minute of piping hot water to
>| >| fill our baths regardless of external conditions.
>| >
>| >Maybe I have seen that a few times in hotels, never at home.   I find 8l/m,
>| >measured, perfectly satisfactory.   Fills a bath in about 7 mins, as would
>| >the proposed combi. I have set my conventional system to simulate the
>| >proposed combi and there is little difference between what I have now and
>| >the proposed combi.   I have no idea where people get 15 mins for a bath
>| >from, maybe it is an Urban Legend.
>| 
>| What do you do, just wash your feet? or are you talking about a baby
>| bath? 56 litres is about half of a small bath so its easy to see where
>| 15 mins comes from, its the time a 8l/m combi takes to fill up a small
>| bath of 100l. My bath takes 180l, I'll leave that calculation to you 
>
>I am describing experiments done with a 10 litre bucket, a stop watch and a
>digital thermometer.   I then used the full bath and found it satisfactory.
>

So how big is your bath then? and would you say you like a
hot/warm/medium bath? would you say you a standard human being?

-- 
David

Dave Fawthrop wrote:


> "Are you satisfied with hot water from a combi boiler, without extra
> storage".


Abundantly.
we have 14 l/min at 30 degree temp rise so running at 55 degrees HW temp 
  gives more than ample supply for shower, and as we rarely use baths 
anyway, it's still well ample for a bath fill when 'er self want's a soak.

I used to have a HW tank heated from a backboiler with a "real" 
powershower pump feeding a mixer shower.  The HW tank would empty in 
about 7 minutes and the shower would then run tepid.

So, a combi is the dogs bollarks. I would never go back to stored HW.

-- 
http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK.
http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL!
http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers.
http://gymratz.co.uk/hot-seat.htm - Live web-cam! (sometimes)

In article ,
    wrote:

> > The sock puppet returns...

> The leader of the moron pack is at it again. I have literally given put
> reading most of what they write as it is totally predicable and not
> much value at all.


But at least it's English...

And posted only once...

-- 
*If a turtle doesn't have a shell, is he homeless or naked?

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
   Dave Fawthrop  wrote:

> | What do you do, just wash your feet? or are you talking about a baby
> | bath? 56 litres is about half of a small bath so its easy to see where
> | 15 mins comes from, its the time a 8l/m combi takes to fill up a small
> | bath of 100l. My bath takes 180l, I'll leave that calculation to you 

> I am describing experiments done with a 10 litre bucket, a stop watch
> and a digital thermometer.   I then used the full bath and found it
> satisfactory.


You are of course entitled to your opinion. But most who like a decent
bath would disagree with you. I like a bath to fill in the time it takes
to get undressed etc.

-- 
*Husbands should come with instructions

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , 
timegoesby@my-deja.com writes

>
>Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>> In article ,
>>     wrote:
>> > Welcome back IMM.
>>
>> The sock puppet returns...
>
>The leader of the moron pack is at it again.


>I have literally given put
>reading most of what they write


Aha dIMM speak at last




-- 
geoff

Out of curiosity could you take a guess at how many kW of combi boiler
power would be required to fill a bath at the same rate as a stored
hot water system?

In article ,
   Peter  wrote:

> Out of curiosity could you take a guess at how many kW of combi boiler
> power would be required to fill a bath at the same rate as a stored
> hot water system?


It would depend on the stored system, as some can be very poor.

-- 
*If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:34:17 +0100, Peter wrote:


> Out of curiosity could you take a guess at how many kW of combi boiler
> power would be required to fill a bath at the same rate as a stored
> hot water system?


It depends on how effective your 'stored' arragements are but if you took
a typical 20 litre/min of mixed water (a correctly installed unvented
system might well give twice that). The you'd be looking at around 50kW
more or less depending on the inlet water temp.

-- 
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk 
Gas fitting FAQ  http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:19:51 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
 wrote:


| You are of course entitled to your opinion. But most who like a decent
| bath would disagree with you. I like a bath to fill in the time it takes
| to get undressed etc.

Well I have no problem getting undressed in 30 sec, so with your 100l bath,
you must have 200l/min.  I very much doubt it.

-- 
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> 
"Intelligent Design?" my knees say *not*.
"Intelligent Design?" my back says *not*.

In article , Dave Fawthrop
<invalid@hyphenologist.co.uk.invalid> wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:19:51 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
>  wrote:


> | You are of course entitled to your opinion. But most who like a decent
> | bath would disagree with you. I like a bath to fill in the time it
> | takes to get undressed etc.

> Well I have no problem getting undressed in 30 sec, so with your 100l
> bath, you must have 200l/min.  I very much doubt it.


Fine. I'll give you some figures. I get near 30 l/min of hot at 60C and
the same flow rate of 'cold' at probably around 10C since it comes from a
storage tank too. So it fills the bath in *about* the same time as it
takes to get undressed and get organised for a bath. If I'm in a rush to
get washed, I use the shower. Which also delivers the same sort of flow -
being an Aqualisa fed from 22mm.

If you'd care to recommend a combi which can match this I'll buy it
tomorrow. Unless, of course, it needs a commercial gas supply, etc.

-- 
*The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an artist 

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:

> I have never had the experince as I always fit good quality mixers,
> preferably the one lever type, the sort the buyers expect, the sort
> that stand out, the sort that say quality, the sort that say I like
> this bathroom, the sort that add value and make the place sell for the
> asking price very quickly.


.... the sort you can't turn on and off with your toes?

Owain

On 16 Sep 2005 03:15:12 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>
>:::Jerry:::: wrote:
>>  wrote in message
>> news:1126824517.732246.279400@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> <snip>
>> > the combined flow. Single taps lower the price of a place.
>> >
>>
>> Total crap, if there is either a separate shower enclosure or mixer
>> were is the need for mixer taps?
>
>I wish all my buyers were as easy to please as you, as I would save a
>fortune and put in cheap contractor materials.



This is complete nonsense.

You are gullible to the marketing wiles of form over function - a
marketeer's dream.  Do you buy Lottery tickets?

It seems that you are trying address markets with an inappropriate mix
of products.

If you are trying to go for the market where appearance and *apparent*
function is the key, you might as well go for fancy gold mixer taps,
full body showers and all the rest of it and the cheapest combi you
can buy.    You could copy the manufacturers of such boilers and put
into the estate agent spec that there is a two-bathroom hot water
system.

Don't bother about it not working properly.

There is little point in going for products such as the ACV because if
you just want to be able to be able to use the phrase "stainless
steel" as a selling point, there are cheaper ways to do it.
Then you have more money to spend on visual frippery like fancy gold
mixer taps.

Alternatively, if you are trying to go for the market where function
matters, you would be much better off going for a proper storage or
thermal store system using a stainless steel heat exchanger or a
boiler using a stainless steel heat exchanger.    I suspect that this
is a minority part of the market, however.

Certainly a product like ACV will do a better job than a cheap and
nasty 11lpm combi.   But what's the point?  You can claim a two
bathroom solution from almost any piece of crap just by cutting and
pasting the brochures.

On the other hand, it falls way short of a proper storage solution of
either stored HW or a sensible capacity thermal store.   Therefore you
lose out both ways.  You are spending more than needed to provide a
cosmetic marketing solution but are falling short of doing the job
properly.



-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
    wrote:

> > If you'd care to recommend a combi which can match this I'll buy it
> > tomorrow. Unless, of course, it needs a commercial gas supply, etc.

> The ACV Heatmaster 35 KW combi supplies 38 litres per minute of hot
> water at 60 degree C.


You're talking rubbish. It might well do for a short time until its
(small) store is exhausted but most people think a combi can deliver its
quoted output for ever. And many are sadly disappointed by such devices.
That's the idea which appeals with an combi, but of course doesn't
happen. 


> I have all the details. As you are now going to
> buy one as it beats your 30 litres, take out a loan tomorrow as you
> have clearly stated


So it will fill *my* bath in the same time?


> 30 litres a minute from a tank in the loft? I would say 28mm pipes and
> 3/4" single bath taps to get that. Who has single taps anymore? I have
> only ever seen them in hospitals. I only ever fit mixers which do lower
> the combined flow. Single taps lower the price of a place.


The mixer tap on my bath is designed for 22mm pipes. IE, 3/4 inch. If you
want to use unsuitable taps that's your business..

-- 
*I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
    wrote:

> In less than 17 minutes a full bath could be drawn off


Great. Mine takes about five minutes. For a large bath filled to the brim
with piping hot water.

Glad I didn't buy one of your 'high class' properties.

-- 
*And don't start a sentence with a conjunction *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 16 Sep 2005 07:57:15 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>
>I agree with you. I have never renovated a period property. 


It's probably best that you don't.


>If I did I
>would install fitments to compliment the dcor. It is logical as it
>would get the asking price and hopefully sell quickly. I would be weary
>of such properties as I don't fully understand that market and may
>get bitten. 


The objective of restoring period properties is not just about making
a quick buck.


>Restoring period features can be very time consuming and
>expensive. Those sort of houses are not to everyone's taste. 


Thank goodness.


>The
>people who renovate them tend to live in them.


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:45:35 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
 wrote:


>>> Please do refer to my other post. The time is not unspecified, it is
>>> clearly 10 minutes. It will fill a 380 litre bath in 10 minutes and a
>>> normal bath in a few minutes.
>>
>> That is not what they explicitly say in the spec.
>>
>> They give the rate per 10 minutes which is not the same and it cannot
>> be continuous.
>
>As far as I interpret the figures it is saying (at delta 35):
>
>38lpm for 10 minutes from full store to depleted.
>18lpm for 60 minutes from full store to depleted.
>15lpm continuous.
>
>With a 37 minute recovery.
>
>In which case, I would conclude (and from the casing dimensions) that it has
>a very sizeable store. Assuming it is essentially a heatbank, I'd guess
>(10*(38-15)) * (35 / 70) = 115L (assuming heat store at 75C, incoming mains
>at 5C), plus a few litres for inefficiency, which is essentially a standard
>450x900 cylinder. Indeed, it sounds so like it, it probably is it.


This is a reasonable conclusion.  My point about this product is that
the manufacturer obfuscates this information and quotes from the best
case conditions.




>
>The only spoiler is the quoted 37 minute recovery. 



This is disappointing.


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On 16 Sep 2005 07:40:10 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>

>
>Go to their web site http://www.acv-uk.com. I downloaded the
>installation instructions. It is the only domestic combi from a large
>commercial range.
>
>IMM said it was a hybrid of unvented cylinder and thermal store. 


Then it is probably something else entirely.



>From
>the manual: 108.5 litres in the thermal store (it says heating circuit
>capacity) >and a total of 189 litres which means the unvented cylinder
>side is 80 litres. 


This is a very strange way to specify the product.


>he unvented cylinder is totally immersed within the
>thermal store water. The heating is taken from the thermal store water.
>The heat exchanger runs right through the centre of the two tanks.
>
>The DHW enters into a coil right at the bottom of the cylinder and then
>fills the unvented cylinder at the top after leaving the coil. I think
>this is to keep the bottom cool for the condensing part.
>
>The 37 minutes recovery is from cold to 80 centigrade. It will always
>give 15 litres per minute minimum. In less than 17 minutes a full bath
>could be drawn off (half the 38 litre for 10 minutes, which is 190
>litres). If the bath is 125 litres then about 12 minutes or so, 10
>minutes or les if replying on the 15 litres per minutes to finish off
>at the end of the fill. 


This is assuming that that is indeed what the product does.  The spec.
is not clear on this point at all.



>his thing looks very impressive to me and
>performs better than a separate cylinder, and cheaper as well. 

Untrue.


> 35 KW
>Viessmann, or ACV boiler, a tank in tank and the controls to deliver
>380 litres in 10 minutes costs more than the Heatmaster and takes up
>far more space and time to connect up.


There are many alternatives using a cylinder or thermal store that are
quite easy to connect up and do not take up more usable space.



> am into delivering flows to at
>least 1 bathroom and en-suite, more usually two full bathrooms, and
>this baby delivers without any fuss and all in one box which is easy to
>connect up. 


I can see why you would find it attractive.


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:

> On 16 Sep 2005 07:57:15 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> >I agree with you. I have never renovated a period property.
>
> It's probably best that you don't.


About the only sensible thing you have said on this thread.


> >If I did I
> >would install fitments to compliment the décor. It is logical as it
> >would get the asking price and hopefully sell quickly. I would be weary
> >of such properties as I don't fully understand that market and may
> >get bitten.
>
> The objective of restoring period properties is not just about making
> a quick buck.


Anything old, antiques and all that, is exactly about making quick
bucks. Rennovating to high quality is not. It is about quality and
giving the buyers what they want, which is clean modern designs in 90%
of cases.


> >Restoring period features can be very time consuming and
> >expensive. Those sort of houses are not to everyone's taste.
>
> Thank goodness.


Another sensible thing you have said.


> >The
> >people who renovate them tend to live in them.
> 
> -- 
> 
> .andy
> 
> To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article ,
>     wrote:

> > In less than 17 minutes a full bath could be drawn off
>
> Great. Mine takes about five minutes. For a large bath filled to the brim
> with piping hot water.


You should read the post properly, theat time is a recovery time, not a
bath filling time. The ACV will fill a bath faster than your system.
You are the one who claimed it can't be done and would buy one the next
day when proven wrong. Have you ordered your ACV yet?


> Glad I didn't buy one of your 'high class' properties.


So you like slow baths fills then. :)


> --
> *And don't start a sentence with a conjunction *
>
>     Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
>                   To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Andy Hall wrote:

>
> >he unvented cylinder is totally immersed within the
> >thermal store water. The heating is taken from the thermal store water.
> >The heat exchanger runs right through the centre of the two tanks.
> >
> >The DHW enters into a coil right at the bottom of the cylinder and then
> >fills the unvented cylinder at the top after leaving the coil. I think
> >this is to keep the bottom cool for the condensing part.
> >
> >The 37 minutes recovery is from cold to 80 centigrade. It will always
> >give 15 litres per minute minimum. In less than 17 minutes a full bath
> >could be drawn off (half the 38 litre for 10 minutes, which is 190
> >litres). If the bath is 125 litres then about 12 minutes or so, 10
> >minutes or les if replying on the 15 litres per minutes to finish off
> >at the end of the fill.
>
> This is assuming that that is indeed what the product does.  The spec.
> is not clear on this point at all.


The spec is very clear.


> >his thing looks very impressive to me and
> >performs better than a separate cylinder, and cheaper as well.
>
> Untrue.


I have looked at the specs, it performs better.


> > 35 KW
> >Viessmann, or ACV boiler, a tank in tank and the controls to deliver
> >380 litres in 10 minutes costs more than the Heatmaster and takes up
> >far more space and time to connect up.
>
> There are many alternatives using a cylinder or thermal store that are
> quite easy to connect up and do not take up more usable space.


I looked at a megaflow and they were around £1.5K with all the valves
attached, then I would have to buy a top quality boiler around 30 kiloW
pushing it up to well over £2K. I may as well buy a Viessmann,
Gledhill or ACV floor mounted combi and save money, hassle and lots of
space.


> > am into delivering flows to at
> >least 1 bathroom and en-suite, more usually two full bathrooms, and
> >this baby delivers without any fuss and all in one box which is easy to
> >connect up.
>
> I can see why you would find it attractive.


Read above and read the specs.
 

> 
> -- 
> 
> .andy
> 
> To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:45:35 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
>  wrote:
>
> >>> Please do refer to my other post. The time is not unspecified, it is
> >>> clearly 10 minutes. It will fill a 380 litre bath in 10 minutes and a
> >>> normal bath in a few minutes.
> >>
> >> That is not what they explicitly say in the spec.
> >>
> >> They give the rate per 10 minutes which is not the same and it cannot
> >> be continuous.
> >
> >As far as I interpret the figures it is saying (at delta 35):
> >
> >38lpm for 10 minutes from full store to depleted.
> >18lpm for 60 minutes from full store to depleted.
> >15lpm continuous.
> >
> >With a 37 minute recovery.
> >
> >In which case, I would conclude (and from the casing dimensions) that it has
> >a very sizeable store. Assuming it is essentially a heatbank, I'd guess
> >(10*(38-15)) * (35 / 70) = 115L (assuming heat store at 75C, incoming mains
> >at 5C), plus a few litres for inefficiency, which is essentially a standard
> >450x900 cylinder. Indeed, it sounds so like it, it probably is it.
>
> This is a reasonable conclusion.  My point about this product is that
> the manufacturer obfuscates this information and quotes from the best
> case conditions.


Christian is assuming and assumed wrong. As Christian has pointed out,
they are underselling the product. I see no lies or clouding of
information, as ACV are a reputable commercial manufacturer. They don't
sell to B&Q.


>
> >
> >The only spoiler is the quoted 37 minute recovery.
>
> This is disappointing.


It "never" delivers less than 15 litres per minute at any time, which
is great for showers. There is nothing worse than being in a shower and
the water runs cold. The 37 minutes recovery is to take it back to
delivering two baths simultaneously. As I have pointed out, wait about
8 or 10 minutes and the average bath will be filled in a few minutes.
And it also does the CH as well, and of RR stainless steel quality. You
are in effect saying a Ravenheat and a cheap Screwfix tank and cylinder
is superior. I'm glad I don't take your advise.


> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> .andy
> 
> To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

John Rumm wrote:

> timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > The Japanese Rinnai multi points have high flowrates with the downside
> > of no CH. I am seriously in the market for one of these.
>
> What do you plan to use for heating though?
>
> You have about 60kW to play with from the supply. Space heating boilers
> are going to be at least 15kW. If you have other gas appliances such as
> a cooker you potentially lose another 5 to 10kW there. At best that
> seems to leave you 40kW to play with for the Riannai.
>
> That does not sound any better than one of the bigger combi's, but
> requires two boxes to do it.


I have a few options. a) Fit the next size up of gas meter. The 1" pipe
can stay, as a 1" pipe can deliver more than 6 cubic metres as the
small domestic meter is restricted to. With a large meter I could fit a
combi to do the kitchen and utility room to not rob the Rinnai for flow
and pressure.  b) Take on IMMs suggestion of having a flow switch in
the cold inlet pipe to the Rinnai. This is wired in series in the
boiler room thermostat circuit. When the Rinnai makes hot water the CH
boiler is switched off. I suppose like a combi sort of thing. As the
Rinnai fills baths quickly the CH should not be off for long.

Cost? Rinnai about £850 and a Glow Worm combi is about £670. A total
of £1520. That is very competitive to fill two baths or run two Tower
Shower continuously. And they save space and are easy to fit. It cost
about the same using a small system boiler. The combis and system
boiler are about the same in cost.


>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John.
>
> /=================================================================\
> |          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
> |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
> |        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
> \=================================================================/

In article ,
    wrote:

> You should read the post properly, theat time is a recovery time, not a
> bath filling time. The ACV will fill a bath faster than your system.


No it won't - it hasn't got a large enough store of water at 60C.

Didn't you understand Andy's figures?


> You are the one who claimed it can't be done and would buy one the next
> day when proven wrong. Have you ordered your ACV yet?


No - because it doesn't provide an endless supply of hot water at high
flow. It relies on a store considerably smaller than my existing system.
When that store runs out it reverts to its continuous rating.

A 'one box' solution with a large enough store would be far too large to
install easily. Therefore it makes sense to keep them separate unless
you're tight for space which I'm not.

-- 
*A closed mouth gathers no feet.*

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
    wrote:

> > The objective of restoring period properties is not just about making
> > a quick buck.

> Anything old, antiques and all that, is exactly about making quick
> bucks. Rennovating to high quality is not. It is about quality and
> giving the buyers what they want, which is clean modern designs in 90%
> of cases.


That may well be the case for you running your business. 
But this is a DIY group, and many DIY because they want the best for
*themselves* - not just what is profitable for a developer to foist upon
them.

Not everyone is a blind follower of fashion, thank gawd. So decorating and
fitting out your own home only with a view to possible re-sale is a
nonsense, because for most by the time it comes to move on everything will
be equally as dated. ;-)

-- 
*42.7% of statistics are made up. Sorry, that should read 47.2% *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article ,
>     wrote:
> > > The objective of restoring period properties is not just about making
> > > a quick buck.
>
> > Anything old, antiques and all that, is exactly about making quick
> > bucks. Rennovating to high quality is not. It is about quality and
> > giving the buyers what they want, which is clean modern designs in 90%
> > of cases.
>
> That may well be the case for you running your business.
> But this is a DIY group, and many DIY because they want the best for
> *themselves* - not just what is profitable for a developer to foist upon
> them.
>
> Not everyone is a blind follower of fashion, thank gawd. So decorating and
> fitting out your own home only with a view to possible re-sale is a
> nonsense, because for most by the time it comes to move on everything will
> be equally as dated. ;-)


I don't follow fashion. I just give people what they want to a high
quality. Quality sells.


> --
> *42.7% of statistics are made up. Sorry, that should read 47.2% *
>
>     Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
>                   To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article ,
>     wrote:
> > You should read the post properly, theat time is a recovery time, not a
> > bath filling time. The ACV will fill a bath faster than your system.
>
> No it won't - it hasn't got a large enough store of water at 60C.
>
> Didn't you understand Andy's figures?


I go by the makers figures. It will deliver 60C to one bath faster than
your system, so when are you going to buy one? You said you would. :)

Who has a 60C bath?  Do you want third degree burns?


> > You are the one who claimed it can't be done and would buy one the next
> > day when proven wrong. Have you ordered your ACV yet?
>
> No - because it doesn't provide an endless supply of hot water at high
> flow.


Neither does your stored system. It delivers a higher flow to one bath
faster than your system. It will also fill two baths at a realistic
temperature that doesn't put you in the burns unit.


> It relies on a store considerably smaller than my existing system.
> When that store runs out it reverts to its continuous rating.
>
> A 'one box' solution with a large enough store would be far too large to
> install easily. Therefore it makes sense to keep them separate unless
> you're tight for space which I'm not.


This one box is not large at all.


> --
> *A closed mouth gathers no feet.*
>
>     Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
>                   To e-mail, change noise into sound.

wrote in message
news:1126956943.904419.33530@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

>
<snip>
>
> I don't follow fashion. I just give people what they want to a high
> quality. Quality sells.
>


No, you seem to be giving them what *you* think they want, whilst
maximising your profit, apparently...

wrote in message
news:1126956597.860756.89930@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

>

<snip ignorant clap>

You are IMM (aka Dr Drivel) and I claim my 5 pounds....

timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


> It "never" delivers less than 15 litres per minute at any time, which
> is great for showers. There is nothing worse than being in a shower and
> the water runs cold. The 37 minutes recovery is to take it back to


You seem to have fallen into the trap that IMM could never seem to get 
out of... (not supprising I guess)

If the boiler is providing high flow at high temperature, and runs out 
of store capacity then the flow rate of hot water draw off rate will 
have to be reduced to maintain the temperature, and the temperature it 
maintains will be some 20 degrees cooler. So you are still going to have 
to adjust the controls on the shower to have it remain as it was before. 
You will also have to accept a reduction in flow rate if your shower is 
"thristy".

-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


> I have a few options. a) Fit the next size up of gas meter. The 1" pipe
> can stay, as a 1" pipe can deliver more than 6 cubic metres as the
> small domestic meter is restricted to. With a large meter I could fit a


What will transco charge for that? Will the supplier be happy to keep 
you on a domestic contract with a comercial meter?


> combi to do the kitchen and utility room to not rob the Rinnai for flow
> and pressure.  b) Take on IMMs suggestion of having a flow switch in
> the cold inlet pipe to the Rinnai. This is wired in series in the
> boiler room thermostat circuit. When the Rinnai makes hot water the CH
> boiler is switched off. I suppose like a combi sort of thing. As the
> Rinnai fills baths quickly the CH should not be off for long.


I think I would want to see a second independant interlock on that. As 
you describe it, you have a single point of failure on a safety critical 
system. Should the flow switch fail (or more likely get sluggish) it 
could result in a hob being extinguished etc.


> Cost? Rinnai about 850 and a Glow Worm combi is about 670. A total
> of 1520. That is very competitive to fill two baths or run two Tower
> Shower continuously. And they save space and are easy to fit. It cost


I would not expect a small boiler + thermal store (for example) is going 
to be much bigger than two boilers/multipoints



-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

In article ,
timegoesby@my-deja.com writes

>
>Andy Hall wrote:
>> On 16 Sep 2005 07:57:15 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >I agree with you. I have never renovated a period property.
>>
>> It's probably best that you don't.
>
>About the only sensible thing you have said on this thread.
>
>> >If I did I
>> >would install fitments to compliment the dcor. It is logical as it
>> >would get the asking price and hopefully sell quickly. I would be weary
>> >of such properties as I don't fully understand that market and may
>> >get bitten.
>>
>> The objective of restoring period properties is not just about making
>> a quick buck.
>
>Anything old, antiques and all that, is exactly about making quick
>bucks. Rennovating to high quality is not. It is about quality and
>giving the buyers what they want, which is clean modern designs in 90%
>of cases.
>

Most housebuilders give this and most of them build crap houses that
look good spec wise. I think you're mixing ideals here, its easy to
dress something up to sell but that doesn't mean the "discerning" buyer
has got something that works for them, many crap products are sold by
using glossy brochures, clever specs and salesmanship, I think you give
you're buyers too much credit, most housebuyers make their decision long
before they have checked that there are mixer taps and "state of the
art" water heating systems.
-- 
David

timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


> 
> It "never" delivers less than 15 litres per minute at any time, which
> is great for showers. 


	It would on my supply which drops to 6l/m on occasions and rarely 
exceeds 12l/m!!

	Regards
	Capitol

John Rumm wrote:

> timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > It "never" delivers less than 15 litres per minute at any time, which
> > is great for showers. There is nothing worse than being in a shower and
> > the water runs cold. The 37 minutes recovery is to take it back to
>
> You seem to have fallen into the trap that IMM could never seem to get
> out of... (not supprising I guess)
>
> If the boiler is providing high flow at high temperature, and runs out
> of store capacity


The store capacity is vast. 380 litres in 10 minutes. That takes some
running out.


> then the flow rate of hot water draw off rate will
> have to be reduced to maintain the temperature, and the temperature it
> maintains will be some 20 degrees cooler. So you are still going to have
> to adjust the controls on the shower to have it remain as it was before.
> You will also have to accept a reduction in flow rate if your shower is
> "thristy".


The 15 litres per minutes is good feeling backup. With 380 litres per
minute I can't ever envisage resorting to the 15 litres per minute.



> --
> Cheers,
>
> John.
>
> /=================================================================\
> |          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
> |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
> |        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
> \=================================================================/

timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:

  run two Tower

> Shower continuously. 


	Under these conditions, the Rinnai does not work satisfactorily!! Look 
it up IMM!!

	Regards
	Capitol

In article ,
    wrote:

> > > You should read the post properly, theat time is a recovery time, not a
> > > bath filling time. The ACV will fill a bath faster than your system.
> >
> > No it won't - it hasn't got a large enough store of water at 60C.
> >
> > Didn't you understand Andy's figures?

> I go by the makers figures. It will deliver 60C to one bath faster than
> your system, so when are you going to buy one? You said you would. :)

> Who has a 60C bath?  Do you want third degree burns?


Sigh. I want *my* bath filled to the level I want quickly. Which means
mixing hot at 60 degrees and about 30 litres per minute with cold at about
the same flow. Which fills *my* bath in about the time it takes to get
undressed etc.

You may be happy with a tiny bath filled to a couple of inches as IMM
apparently is. I'm not.

And I'm glad I'm not in the market for one of your 'designer' homes. I'll
stick to what *I* want, rather than what you *think* I should have.

-- 
*Am I ambivalent? Well, yes and no.  

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
    wrote:

> I don't follow fashion. I just give people what they want to a high
> quality. Quality sells.


Maybe to an innocent doing a first time purchase. What you seem to
recommend wouldn't suit me. I value performance above style. But try to
combine both. But then my job is a sound engineer, and much of the so
called quality equipment sells on looks, not sound.

-- 
He who laughs last, thinks slowest.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

John Rumm wrote:

> timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > I have a few options. a) Fit the next size up of gas meter. The 1" pipe
> > can stay, as a 1" pipe can deliver more than 6 cubic metres as the
> > small domestic meter is restricted to. With a large meter I could fit a
>
> What will transco charge for that? Will the supplier be happy to keep
> you on a domestic contract with a comercial meter?


I am to contact Transco soon.  There is no such thing as a commercial
meter, only commercial tariffs.


> > combi to do the kitchen and utility room to not rob the Rinnai for flow
> > and pressure.  b) Take on IMMs suggestion of having a flow switch in
> > the cold inlet pipe to the Rinnai. This is wired in series in the
> > boiler room thermostat circuit. When the Rinnai makes hot water the CH
> > boiler is switched off. I suppose like a combi sort of thing. As the
> > Rinnai fills baths quickly the CH should not be off for long.
>
> I think I would want to see a second independant interlock on that. As
> you describe it, you have a single point of failure on a safety critical
> system. Should the flow switch fail (or more likely get sluggish) it
> could result in a hob being extinguished etc.


IMM went on about U6 meters having an overload capability. That sounds
sensible. Any overload would be marginal. All appliances would have a
gas pipe back top the meter.


> > Cost? Rinnai about £850 and a Glow Worm combi is about £670. A total
> > of £1520. That is very competitive to fill two baths or run two Tower
> > Shower continuously. And they save space and are easy to fit. It cost
>
> I would not expect a small boiler  thermal store (for example) is going
> to be much bigger than two boilers/multipoints


You have missed the point. The Rinnai will give the flow rate for ever.
With storage I would require an exceptionally large, expensive, space
consuming cylinder or thermal store. Storage will eventually run out,
an instant heater will not. It is the application, and finding the
appliances to suit, at the right cost, not having prejudices. The
Rinnai is brilliant at what it does. Storage is bursty. A lot of flow
for a short time, then nothing. The exception is the floor mounted
combis, which do both. High flows, then reverts to a combi when the
storage has run out. The best of both. Think hard about it. I did
because as I had to deliver. It really does focus the mind.


>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John.
>
> /=================================================================\
> |          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
> |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
> |        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
> \=================================================================/

On 17 Sep 2005 02:29:13 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>
>Andy Hall wrote:
>>
>> >he unvented cylinder is totally immersed within the
>> >thermal store water. The heating is taken from the thermal store water.
>> >The heat exchanger runs right through the centre of the two tanks.
>> >
>> >The DHW enters into a coil right at the bottom of the cylinder and then
>> >fills the unvented cylinder at the top after leaving the coil. I think
>> >this is to keep the bottom cool for the condensing part.
>> >
>> >The 37 minutes recovery is from cold to 80 centigrade. It will always
>> >give 15 litres per minute minimum. In less than 17 minutes a full bath
>> >could be drawn off (half the 38 litre for 10 minutes, which is 190
>> >litres). If the bath is 125 litres then about 12 minutes or so, 10
>> >minutes or les if replying on the 15 litres per minutes to finish off
>> >at the end of the fill.
>>
>> This is assuming that that is indeed what the product does.  The spec.
>> is not clear on this point at all.
>
>The spec is very clear.


The spec. is *not* clear on the point of the size of the store at all.



>
>> >his thing looks very impressive to me and
>> >performs better than a separate cylinder, and cheaper as well.
>>
>> Untrue.
>
>I have looked at the specs, it performs better.


Nonsense.  You don't have figures for a separate cylinder.   Since it
is possible to design a storage system component by component, it is
possible to achieve virtually whatever performance is wanted.



>
>> > 35 KW
>> >Viessmann, or ACV boiler, a tank in tank and the controls to deliver
>> >380 litres in 10 minutes costs more than the Heatmaster and takes up
>> >far more space and time to connect up.
>>
>> There are many alternatives using a cylinder or thermal store that are
>> quite easy to connect up and do not take up more usable space.
>
>I looked at a megaflow and they were around 1.5K with all the valves
>attached, then I would have to buy a top quality boiler around 30 kiloW
>pushing it up to well over 2K. I may as well buy a Viessmann,
>Gledhill or ACV floor mounted combi and save money, hassle and lots of
>space.


Except that it doesn't save any usable space at all.   The thing is
larger than the footprint of a washing machine and taller as well.
It's also larger than a domestic cylinder footprint.






>
>> > am into delivering flows to at
>> >least 1 bathroom and en-suite, more usually two full bathrooms, and
>> >this baby delivers without any fuss and all in one box which is easy to
>> >connect up.
>>
>> I can see why you would find it attractive.
>
>Read above and read the specs.
> 


I have.  The critical information is missing, and the manufacturer
feels that the product is light in weight which it isn't.

I am not as easily impressed as you are.


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article ,
>     wrote:
> > I don't follow fashion. I just give people what they want to a high
> > quality. Quality sells.
>
> Maybe to an innocent doing a first time purchase.


Quality sells to anyone.  Only the naive, or peopel who only see the
bottom line, can't see it.


> What you seem to
> recommend wouldn't suit me.


OK, you don't like quality.


> I value performance above style.


I give both. I guarantee the houses for a year, and this is a great
selling point and sells the houses fast. If anything is wrong I fix it.
I have have had few call backs, with most being misunderstandings.


> But try to
> combine both. But then my job is a sound engineer, and much of the so
> called quality equipment sells on looks, not sound.


I can't comment on the sound field, only what I know about houses, and
what people want and sells, in north and north west London in the past
7 years.


> --
> He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
>
>     Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
>                   To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17 Sep 2005 02:44:41 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>
>Andy Hall wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:45:35 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
>>  wrote:
>>
>> >>> Please do refer to my other post. The time is not unspecified, it is
>> >>> clearly 10 minutes. It will fill a 380 litre bath in 10 minutes and a
>> >>> normal bath in a few minutes.
>> >>
>> >> That is not what they explicitly say in the spec.
>> >>
>> >> They give the rate per 10 minutes which is not the same and it cannot
>> >> be continuous.
>> >
>> >As far as I interpret the figures it is saying (at delta 35):
>> >
>> >38lpm for 10 minutes from full store to depleted.
>> >18lpm for 60 minutes from full store to depleted.
>> >15lpm continuous.
>> >
>> >With a 37 minute recovery.
>> >
>> >In which case, I would conclude (and from the casing dimensions) that it has
>> >a very sizeable store. Assuming it is essentially a heatbank, I'd guess
>> >(10*(38-15)) * (35 / 70) = 115L (assuming heat store at 75C, incoming mains
>> >at 5C), plus a few litres for inefficiency, which is essentially a standard
>> >450x900 cylinder. Indeed, it sounds so like it, it probably is it.
>>
>> This is a reasonable conclusion.  My point about this product is that
>> the manufacturer obfuscates this information and quotes from the best
>> case conditions.
>
>Christian is assuming and assumed wrong. As Christian has pointed out,
>they are underselling the product. I see no lies or clouding of
>information, as ACV are a reputable commercial manufacturer. 


I didn't say that lies were being told.  However, important
information is missing from the specifications and there is
considerable license in the brochure.


>They don't
>sell to B&Q.


That's neither here nor there.


>
>>
>> >
>> >The only spoiler is the quoted 37 minute recovery.
>>
>> This is disappointing.
>
>It "never" delivers less than 15 litres per minute at any time, which
>is great for showers.


Untrue.   That would assume a temperature increase of 35 degrees. The
throughput would be less if a higher temperature than 40 degrees were
required in the winter.



> There is nothing worse than being in a shower and
>the water runs cold. 


I agree.  With a properly specified storage system as opposed to a
compromise box, it is easily possible to have a plentiful supply.


>The 37 minutes recovery is to take it back to
>delivering two baths simultaneously. 


Meaningless statement unless you specify the flow rate entailed by
that.



>As I have pointed out, wait about
>8 or 10 minutes and the average bath will be filled in a few minutes.


You would need to define the term "average bath" for that statement to
be meaingful.



>And it also does the CH as well, and of RR stainless steel quality. 


It has components made from stainless steel.   I couldn't see the
grade specified.


>You
>are in effect saying a Ravenheat and a cheap Screwfix tank and cylinder
>is superior. 


I'm not saying that at all.   However, it is possible to design a
proper storage system from high quality components and to exceed the
performance of the ACV product comfortably.  I know because I've done
it.




-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

David wrote:

> In article ,
> timegoesby@my-deja.com writes
> >
> >Andy Hall wrote:
> >> On 16 Sep 2005 07:57:15 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >I agree with you. I have never renovated a period property.
> >>
> >> It's probably best that you don't.
> >
> >About the only sensible thing you have said on this thread.
> >
> >> >If I did I
> >> >would install fitments to compliment the décor. It is logical as it
> >> >would get the asking price and hopefully sell quickly. I would be weary
> >> >of such properties as I don't fully understand that market and may
> >> >get bitten.
> >>
> >> The objective of restoring period properties is not just about making
> >> a quick buck.
> >
> >Anything old, antiques and all that, is exactly about making quick
> >bucks. Rennovating to high quality is not. It is about quality and
> >giving the buyers what they want, which is clean modern designs in 90%
> >of cases.
> >
> Most housebuilders give this


Most do not at all.  50% of all new homes still have tanks and
cylinders taking up the airing cupboard and gravity showers. My buyers
would not tolerate such poor performance and clutter.


> and most of them build crap houses that
> look good spec wise.


Soem are crap, yet some are quite decent. You can't generalise.


> I think you're mixing ideals here, its easy to
> dress something up to sell but that doesn't mean the "discerning" buyer
> has got something that works for them, many crap products are sold by
> using glossy brochures, clever specs and salesmanship,


They look around and see what they are getting. The good points are
pointed out to them: Tower Showers at high pressure, boarded lofts with
shoot down ladders and lights up there. Downlighters, fully equipped
and modern kitchens, fully equipped and modern bathrooms, laminated
floors, conservatories, rewired, repiped, and the rest.


> I think you give
> you're buyers too much credit, most housebuyers make their decision long
> before they have checked that there are mixer taps and "state of the
> art" water heating systems.


These are not new homes, they are oldish houses renovated. I "never"
underestimate the buyers. Firstly function. The showers, baths and CH
have to perform. Enough sockets about. double glazing, washing machines
piped in and the same with dishwashers, lots of space. Then form,
decor, modern kitchen and utility room (could be function as well) and
bathroom and en-suite (essential these days), which must have modern
mixers (modern bathroom taps and mixer sell as they exude quality, I
try to fit wall mounted side-on bath mixers), modern lighting which may
be downlighters or wall lights on dimmers, no pipes or cables on show,
nice plain garden with broad leaf pot plants, quality door handles and
quality front door.  

Just common sense.


> -- 
> David

"Dave Plowman (News)"  writes:

Due to the vagaries of my newsreader, the title of this thread in the
summary page reads;

"Subject: Re: Straw Poll "Are you satisfied with Dave Plowman (News)"

Well, yes. Entirely, thank you.

(Seriously, though, we rented a cottage with a combi a few months ago. It was crap.)

-- 
       "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
        [email me at huge [at] huge [dot] org [dot] uk]

On 17 Sep 2005 19:01:26 GMT, huge@ukmisc.org.uk (Huge) wrote:


>"Dave Plowman (News)"  writes:
>
>Due to the vagaries of my newsreader, the title of this thread in the
>summary page reads;
>
>"Subject: Re: Straw Poll "Are you satisfied with Dave Plowman (News)"
>
>Well, yes. Entirely, thank you.
>
>(Seriously, though, we rented a cottage with a combi a few months ago. It was crap.)



Which?   The cottage, the combi or both?


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:

> On 17 Sep 2005 02:44:41 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> >Andy Hall wrote:
> >> On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:45:35 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >> >>> Please do refer to my other post. The time is not unspecified, it is
> >> >>> clearly 10 minutes. It will fill a 380 litre bath in 10 minutes and a
> >> >>> normal bath in a few minutes.
> >> >>
> >> >> That is not what they explicitly say in the spec.
> >> >>
> >> >> They give the rate per 10 minutes which is not the same and it cannot
> >> >> be continuous.
> >> >
> >> >As far as I interpret the figures it is saying (at delta 35):
> >> >
> >> >38lpm for 10 minutes from full store to depleted.
> >> >18lpm for 60 minutes from full store to depleted.
> >> >15lpm continuous.
> >> >
> >> >With a 37 minute recovery.
> >> >
> >> >In which case, I would conclude (and from the casing dimensions) that it has
> >> >a very sizeable store. Assuming it is essentially a heatbank, I'd guess
> >> >(10*(38-15)) * (35 / 70) = 115L (assuming heat store at 75C, incoming mains
> >> >at 5C), plus a few litres for inefficiency, which is essentially a standard
> >> >450x900 cylinder. Indeed, it sounds so like it, it probably is it.
> >>
> >> This is a reasonable conclusion.  My point about this product is that
> >> the manufacturer obfuscates this information and quotes from the best
> >> case conditions.
> >
> >Christian is assuming and assumed wrong. As Christian has pointed out,
> >they are underselling the product. I see no lies or clouding of
> >information, as ACV are a reputable commercial manufacturer.
>
> I didn't say that lies were being told.  However, important
> information is missing from the specifications and there is
> considerable license in the brochure.


I looked at the installation manual. It is there.


> >They don't
> >sell to B&Q.
>
> That's neither here or there.


You must get the point and the market the company is selling to.


>
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >The only spoiler is the quoted 37 minute recovery.
> >>
> >> This is disappointing.
> >
> >It "never" delivers less than 15 litres per minute at any time, which
> >is great for showers.
>
> Untrue.   That would assume a temperature increase of 35 degrees. The
> throughput would be less if a higher temperature than 40 degrees were
> required in the winter.


The makers say it doesn't go below 15 litres, so do the dealers who I
spoke to who deal with many makers products, not only ACV. I prefer to
believe them rather than a confused internet nerd.


> > There is nothing worse than being in a shower and
> >the water runs cold.
>
> I agree.  With a properly specified storage system as opposed to a
> compromise box, it is easily possible to have a plentiful supply.


I see no compromise at all. It is the best of all worlds. Please read
the manual. 38 litres per minute is plentiful supply.


> >The 37 minutes recovery is to take it back to
> >delivering two baths simultaneously.
>
> Meaningless statement unless you specify the flow rate entailed by
> that.


I stated that.


>
> >As I have pointed out, wait about
> >8 or 10 minutes and the average bath will be filled in a few minutes.
>
> You would need to define the term "average bath" for that statement to
> be meaingful.


150 litres do you?


>
> >And it also does the CH as well, and of RR stainless steel quality.
>
> It has components made from stainless steel.   I couldn't see the
> grade specified.


ACV are a renowned quality manufacturer, being the fist to use
stainless steel cylinders and tank in tanks. I think they know what
they are on about.


> >You
> >are in effect saying a Ravenheat and a cheap Screwfix tank and cylinder
> >is superior.
>
> I'm not saying that at all.


You are, that is clear.


> However, it is possible to design a
> proper storage system from high quality components and to exceed the
> performance of the ACV product comfortably.  I know because I've done
> it.


I doubt it very much in the size (very important), performance (it is a
combination of storage and a combi, so never runs out of hot water)
efficiency and price ACV have achieved. With all the space in the world
and a bottomless pit of money I could have 1000 litres per minute
filling a 500 litre bath. However, I live in the real world.


> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> .andy
> 
> To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:

> On 16 Sep 2005 03:15:12 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> >:::Jerry:::: wrote:
> >>  wrote in message
> >> news:1126824517.732246.279400@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >> >
> >> <snip>
> >> > the combined flow. Single taps lower the price of a place.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Total crap, if there is either a separate shower enclosure or mixer
> >> were is the need for mixer taps?
> >
> >I wish all my buyers were as easy to please as you, as I would save a
> >fortune and put in cheap contractor materials.
>
>
> This is complete nonsense.
>
> You are gullible to the marketing wiles of form over function - a
> marketeer's dream.  Do you buy Lottery tickets?
>
> It seems that you are trying address markets with an inappropriate mix
> of products.
>
> If you are trying to go for the market where appearance and *apparent*
> function is the key, you might as well go for fancy gold mixer taps,
> full body showers and all the rest of it and the cheapest combi you
> can buy.    You could copy the manufacturers of such boilers and put
> into the estate agent spec that there is a two-bathroom hot water
> system.
>
> Don't bother about it not working properly.
>
> There is little point in going for products such as the ACV because if
> you just want to be able to be able to use the phrase "stainless
> steel" as a selling point, there are cheaper ways to do it.
> Then you have more money to spend on visual frippery like fancy gold
> mixer taps.
>
> Alternatively, if you are trying to go for the market where function
> matters, you would be much better off going for a proper storage or
> thermal store system using a stainless steel heat exchanger or a
> boiler using a stainless steel heat exchanger.    I suspect that this
> is a minority part of the market, however.
>
> Certainly a product like ACV will do a better job than a cheap and
> nasty 11lpm combi.   But what's the point?  You can claim a two
> bathroom solution from almost any piece of crap just by cutting and
> pasting the brochures.
>
> On the other hand, it falls way short of a proper storage solution of
> either stored HW or a sensible capacity thermal store.   Therefore you
> lose out both ways.  You are spending more than needed to provide a
> cosmetic marketing solution but are falling short of doing the job
> properly.


You really are confused.
 

> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> .andy
> 
> To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On 17 Sep 2005 13:43:19 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>
>Andy Hall wrote:
>> On 17 Sep 2005 02:29:13 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Andy Hall wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >he unvented cylinder is totally immersed within the
>> >> >thermal store water. The heating is taken from the thermal store water.
>> >> >The heat exchanger runs right through the centre of the two tanks.
>> >> >
>> >> >The DHW enters into a coil right at the bottom of the cylinder and then
>> >> >fills the unvented cylinder at the top after leaving the coil. I think
>> >> >this is to keep the bottom cool for the condensing part.
>> >> >
>> >> >The 37 minutes recovery is from cold to 80 centigrade. It will always
>> >> >give 15 litres per minute minimum. In less than 17 minutes a full bath
>> >> >could be drawn off (half the 38 litre for 10 minutes, which is 190
>> >> >litres). If the bath is 125 litres then about 12 minutes or so, 10
>> >> >minutes or les if replying on the 15 litres per minutes to finish off
>> >> >at the end of the fill.
>> >>
>> >> This is assuming that that is indeed what the product does.  The spec.
>> >> is not clear on this point at all.
>> >
>> >The spec is very clear.
>>
>> The spec. is *not* clear on the point of the size of the store at all.
>
>It is very clear. Please look again.


I have.  It is not clear.



>
>> >
>> >> >his thing looks very impressive to me and
>> >> >performs better than a separate cylinder, and cheaper as well.
>> >>
>> >> Untrue.
>> >
>> >I have looked at the specs, it performs better.
>>
>> Nonsense.  You don't have figures for a separate cylinder.
>
>I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which have
>the fastest recovery of any cylinder available..



Says who?  



>
>> Since it
>> is possible to design a storage system component by component, it is
>> possible to achieve virtually whatever performance is wanted.
>
>
>If you have all the space in the world and a bottom les pit of money
>then you are right. However, I live in the real world.


The thing is that it is possible to fit a better system than the ACV
box into about the same amount of usable space far more conveniently
and without needing a crane to do it.



>> >I looked at a megaflow and they were around 1.5K with all the valves
>> >attached, then I would have to buy a top quality boiler around 30 kiloW
>> >pushing it up to well over 2K. I may as well buy a Viessmann,
>> >Gledhill or ACV floor mounted combi and save money, hassle and lots of
>> >space.
>>
>> Except that it doesn't save any usable space at all.
>
>It does, that is why I have homed in on it.


I said *usable* space.   



>
>> The thing is
>> larger than the footprint of a washing machine and taller as well.
>> It's also larger than a domestic cylinder footprint.
>
>About the same as a cylinder has valves hanging off it.  There is no
>separate boiler taking up space.


The difference is that a system boiler can be conveniently fitted in a
kitchen cupboard space, an airing cupboard or a loft.   A cylinder can
be fitted into an airing cupboard or loft.

Your box of tricks is of a non-standard size and is extremely heavy.



>
>> >
>> >> > am into delivering flows to at
>> >> >least 1 bathroom and en-suite, more usually two full bathrooms, and
>> >> >this baby delivers without any fuss and all in one box which is easy to
>> >> >connect up.
>> >>
>> >> I can see why you would find it attractive.
>> >
>> >Read above and read the specs.
>> >
>>
>> I have.
>
>You haven't that is clear.


That sounds like a typical IMM phrase.



>
>> The critical information is missing, and the manufacturer
>> feels that the product is light in weight which it isn't.
>>
>> I am not as easily impressed as you are.
>
>If you can "specifically" point out any misgivings by ACV I would
>appreciate it, as I maybe in the market for one. 


I already have, several times, and I'm not going to repeat the very
obvious limitations.   If you want to choose to ignore the
limitations, then that's up to you.


>The Scottish
>Parliament has a number of them, so maybe you can out us all right. As
>yet you have not. All you have done is assume. I am still open.


WHat the Scottish Parliament has to do with any of this I have no
idea.

I haven't assumed anything.  All I have done is to look at the
spec.sheets and brochures and have pointed out pieces that are missing
or glossed over.




-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On 17 Sep 2005 13:30:55 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>

>
>> >They don't
>> >sell to B&Q.
>>
>> That's neither here or there.
>
>You must get the point and the market the company is selling to.


The gullible?


>
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >The only spoiler is the quoted 37 minute recovery.
>> >>
>> >> This is disappointing.
>> >
>> >It "never" delivers less than 15 litres per minute at any time, which
>> >is great for showers.
>>
>> Untrue.   That would assume a temperature increase of 35 degrees. The
>> throughput would be less if a higher temperature than 40 degrees were
>> required in the winter.
>
>The makers say it doesn't go below 15 litres, so do the dealers who I
>spoke to who deal with many makers products, not only ACV. I prefer to
>believe them rather than a confused internet nerd.


The only person confused here is you.

In the winter, the cold water temperature can easily be 5 degrees.
35kW will produce a 15lpm flow rate for a temperature rise of 35
degrees - i.e. an output temperature of 40 degrees.

Therefore if the required temperature is greater than 40 degrees, the
flow rate will have to be reduced.

If you wish to ignore the laws of physics then that is your choice,
but they won't change for your convenience.





>
>> > There is nothing worse than being in a shower and
>> >the water runs cold.
>>
>> I agree.  With a properly specified storage system as opposed to a
>> compromise box, it is easily possible to have a plentiful supply.
>
>I see no compromise at all. It is the best of all worlds. Please read
>the manual. 38 litres per minute is plentiful supply.


For a short time.    There are compromises of size, weight, flow rate.





>
>ACV are a renowned quality manufacturer, being the fist to use
>stainless steel cylinders and tank in tanks. I think they know what
>they are on about.


Presumably they tell you this in the brochure?


>
>> >You
>> >are in effect saying a Ravenheat and a cheap Screwfix tank and cylinder
>> >is superior.
>>
>> I'm not saying that at all.
>
>You are, that is clear.


Please tell me where I did so.



>
>> However, it is possible to design a
>> proper storage system from high quality components and to exceed the
>> performance of the ACV product comfortably.  I know because I've done
>> it.
>
>I doubt it very much in the size (very important),


In terms of usable space, yes.


> performance (it is a
>combination of storage and a combi, so never runs out of hot water)


but the performance can quickly drop producing said hot water at a
trickle and take a long time to recover.


>efficiency and price ACV have achieved.


The efficiency is nothing more than a typical condensing boiler and
within the margin of error of the SEDBUK database there is nothing to
choose between models.



> With all the space in the world
>and a bottomless pit of money I could have 1000 litres per minute
>filling a 500 litre bath. However, I live in the real world.


Hmmmm.....


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
    wrote:

> Most do not at all.  50% of all new homes still have tanks and
> cylinders taking up the airing cupboard and gravity showers. My buyers
> would not tolerate such poor performance and clutter.


For a start I'd dispute this. Most new houses are built down to a price -
and costs certainly rule out a storage system. It's far cheaper to install
a combi.

But if this was the case, they're supplying performance - which your
preferred systems can't match. That your buyers have no clue says much
about them.

-- 
*Why is it that doctors call what they do "practice"?

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Andy Hall <andyh@hall.nospam> writes:

>On 17 Sep 2005 19:01:26 GMT, huge@ukmisc.org.uk (Huge) wrote:
>
>>"Dave Plowman (News)"  writes:
>>
>>Due to the vagaries of my newsreader, the title of this thread in the
>>summary page reads;
>>
>>"Subject: Re: Straw Poll "Are you satisfied with Dave Plowman (News)"
>>
>>Well, yes. Entirely, thank you.
>>
>>(Seriously, though, we rented a cottage with a combi a few months ago. It was crap.)
>
>
>Which?   The cottage, the combi or both?


The combi. The cottage was OK, although tainted by the presence of the combi.


-- 
       "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
        [email me at huge [at] huge [dot] org [dot] uk]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article ,
>     wrote:
> > Most do not at all.  50% of all new homes still have tanks and
> > cylinders taking up the airing cupboard and gravity showers. My buyers
> > would not tolerate such poor performance and clutter.
>
> For a start I'd dispute this. Most new houses are built down to a price -
> and costs certainly rule out a storage system. It's far cheaper to install
> a combi.


The only combis I have seen in new houses are Powermaxes and Gledhill
Gulfsteams. Most have had cheap cylinders cluttering the airing
cupboards  and boilers in the kitchen of all places. I have seem many
Megaflows which don't liberate space in the house, just eliminating a
tank and power shower pump.


>
> But if this was the case, they're supplying performance - which your
> preferred systems can't match. That your buyers have no clue says much
> about them.


My viewers and buyers are mainly foreign, who expect high performance
from heating, baths, showers and top kitchens and well fitted
bathrooms. I can't speak for what goes in North Yorkshire.


> --
> *Why is it that doctors call what they do "practice"?
>
>     Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
>                   To e-mail, change noise into sound.

timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>>That sounds like a typical IMM phrase.
> 
> 
> He does impress.


Ah bless....

You are talking to yourself again aren't you IMM.

-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

wrote in message
news:1127000128.649369.169460@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

>
> Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > In article
,
> >     wrote:
> > > Most do not at all.  50% of all new homes still have tanks and
> > > cylinders taking up the airing cupboard and gravity showers. My
buyers
> > > would not tolerate such poor performance and clutter.
> >
> > For a start I'd dispute this. Most new houses are built down to a
price -
> > and costs certainly rule out a storage system. It's far cheaper
to install
> > a combi.
>
> The only combis I have seen in new houses are Powermaxes and
Gledhill
> Gulfsteams. Most have had cheap cylinders cluttering the airing
> cupboards


You point being what exactly, or do you expect people to run their CH
just to 'air' their clothing, having a HW tank in the airing cupbord
makes perfect sence.

 and boilers in the kitchen of all places. I have seem many

> Megaflows which don't liberate space in the house, just eliminating
a
> tank and power shower pump.


So were do you place your Combi boilers, in the loft, garage,
outhouse, I suspect many would say that a boiler taking up the space
of one wall mounted cupboard is a small price to pay for convenience
of access (boilers always malfunction at the most inconvenient time).


>
> >
> > But if this was the case, they're supplying performance - which
your
> > preferred systems can't match. That your buyers have no clue says
much
> > about them.
>
> My viewers and buyers are mainly foreign, who expect high
performance
> from heating, baths, showers and top kitchens and well fitted
> bathrooms. I can't speak for what goes in North Yorkshire.
>


Nor can Dave I suspect, hint, read peoples sig' lines before placing
foot in mouth!...

On 17 Sep 2005 16:35:28 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>
>Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>> In article ,
>>     wrote:
>> > Most do not at all.  50% of all new homes still have tanks and
>> > cylinders taking up the airing cupboard and gravity showers. My buyers
>> > would not tolerate such poor performance and clutter.
>>
>> For a start I'd dispute this. Most new houses are built down to a price -
>> and costs certainly rule out a storage system. It's far cheaper to install
>> a combi.
>
>The only combis I have seen in new houses are Powermaxes and Gledhill
>Gulfsteams. Most have had cheap cylinders cluttering the airing
>cupboards  and boilers in the kitchen of all places.


So you are proposing fitting a box which is larger that a cylinder and
may well not fit into a typical airing cupboard.   It certainly won't
fit into the standard kitchen footprints for appliances.

Therefore the conventional system makes a better use of space.

- The boiler can fit into a wall cupboard space rather than using up
more than an appliance floor footprint; or easily into a loft.

- A conventional cylinder is smaller than one of your box packages and
uses less space in a cupboard.




> I have seem many
>Megaflows which don't liberate space in the house, just eliminating a
>tank and power shower pump.
>
>>
>> But if this was the case, they're supplying performance - which your
>> preferred systems can't match. That your buyers have no clue says much
>> about them.
>
>My viewers and buyers are mainly foreign, who expect high performance
>from heating, baths, showers and top kitchens and well fitted
>bathrooms. 


... and who don't have the experience of anything to compare against.



>I can't speak for what goes in North Yorkshire.


... or anywhere else outside a relatively limited market.



>
>> --
>> *Why is it that doctors call what they do "practice"?
>>
>>     Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
>>                   To e-mail, change noise into sound.


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On 17 Sep 2005 16:26:18 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>
>Andy Hall wrote:
>> On 17 Sep 2005 13:43:19 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>>

>> >>
>> >> The spec. is *not* clear on the point of the size of the store at all.
>> >
>> >It is very clear. Please look again.
>>
>> I have.  It is not clear.
>
>It is Saturday night and back from the pub.



Are you ?



>
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> >his thing looks very impressive to me and
>> >> >> >performs better than a separate cylinder, and cheaper as well.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Untrue.
>> >> >
>> >> >I have looked at the specs, it performs better.
>> >>
>> >> Nonsense.  You don't have figures for a separate cylinder.
>> >
>> >I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which have
>> >the fastest recovery of any cylinder available..
>>
>> Says who?
>
>Just about everyone. Tank in tanks have the fastest recovery rate of
>any tanks.


I'm fully aware of that, and it is fairly obvious as a result of the
heat exchange contact area.

I was asking for information confirming that the ACV Smart range is
the fastest recovery of any cylinder available as you have asserted.


>
>>
>> >
>> >> Since it
>> >> is possible to design a storage system component by component, it is
>> >> possible to achieve virtually whatever performance is wanted.
>> >
>> >
>> >If you have all the space in the world and a bottom les pit of money
>> >then you are right. However, I live in the real world.
>>
>> The thing is that it is possible to fit a better system than the ACV
>> box into about the same amount of usable space far more conveniently
>> and without needing a crane to do it.
>
>I know of none. What system? I am eager to know.


Very simple.  Fast recovery cylinder of storage capacity adequate for
the requirements under all conditions of water temperature and pattern
of use.



>
>> >> >I looked at a megaflow and they were around 1.5K with all the valves
>> >> >attached, then I would have to buy a top quality boiler around 30 kiloW
>> >> >pushing it up to well over 2K. I may as well buy a Viessmann,
>> >> >Gledhill or ACV floor mounted combi and save money, hassle and lots of
>> >> >space.
>> >>
>> >> Except that it doesn't save any usable space at all.
>> >
>> >It does, that is why I have homed in on it.
>>
>> I said *usable* space.
>
>I know.
>
>>
>> >
>> >> The thing is
>> >> larger than the footprint of a washing machine and taller as well.
>> >> It's also larger than a domestic cylinder footprint.
>> >
>> >About the same as a cylinder has valves hanging off it.  There is no
>> >separate boiler taking up space.
>>
>> The difference is that a system boiler can be conveniently fitted in a
>> kitchen cupboard space,
>
>A kitchen? Are you kidding?


They do in mine.  Are you buying kitchen furniture in funny places as
well or is your problem that you are renovating council flats?



>
>> an airing cupboard or a loft.
>
>Why have two when one can do it? There is no logic in that, only extra
>expense, time and valuable space used up.


There's every logic in it.   By having separate components it is
possible to locate them easily in a whole variety of places
appropriate to the situation.  If you have a single big box, you are
going to have to provision specially for it.

How do you expect to get a 670mm box weighing 170kg into a loft space?




>
>> A cylinder can
>> be fitted into an airing cupboard or loft.
>
>Why have two one one can do it cheaper.


Because it's possible and can make more efficient use of space.




>
>> Your box of tricks is of a non-standard size and is extremely heavy.
>
>Standard size? It would not be fitting in a kitchen.


So space from another room wood have to be found.....




>
>>
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> > am into delivering flows to at
>> >> >> >least 1 bathroom and en-suite, more usually two full bathrooms, and
>> >> >> >this baby delivers without any fuss and all in one box which is easy to
>> >> >> >connect up.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I can see why you would find it attractive.
>> >> >
>> >> >Read above and read the specs.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> I have.
>> >
>> >You haven't that is clear.
>>
>> That sounds like a typical IMM phrase.
>
>He does impress.


He might impress you, but you are in a minority of two, with him being
the other.




>
>>
>> >
>> >> The critical information is missing, and the manufacturer
>> >> feels that the product is light in weight which it isn't.
>> >>
>> >> I am not as easily impressed as you are.
>> >
>> >If you can "specifically" point out any misgivings by ACV I would
>> >appreciate it, as I maybe in the market for one.
>>
>> I already have, several times,
>
>You have not at all. You have pointed out absolutely nothing. All you
>have done is go on about separate boilers in kitchens and cylinders.


I've made the shortcomings completely clear.  The manufacturer avoids
these areas, understandably.

If you have managed to convince yourself, or allowed yourself to be
convinced by the marketing materials that this product meets your
needs, then you may not want to hear the negatives about it.   That's
your prerogative, but it doesn't make the deficiencies go away.



>
>> and I'm not going to repeat the very
>> obvious limitations.   If you want to choose to ignore the
>> limitations, then that's up to you.
>
>You haven't given any at all, except say a separate boiler and cylinder
>can go in kitchens. Any data you gave was assumed and utter wrong.


It isn't.

Take a look at the missing information and the issues of size and
weight.



>
>>
>> >The Scottish
>> >Parliament has a number of them, so maybe you can out us all right. As
>> >yet you have not. All you have done is assume. I am still open.
>>
>> WHat the Scottish Parliament has to do with any of this I have no
>> idea.
>
>They have a number of them. If they are inadequate I'm sure they would
>like to know, as I would too.


Considering that the project was massively over budget and late, I
wouldn't treat anything or anybody involved in its construction as
being in any way reliable.






>
>> I haven't assumed anything.  All I have done is to look at the
>> spec.sheets and brochures and have pointed out pieces that are missing
>> or glossed over.
>
>Look at the installation manual. You have assumed lots, and concluded
>incorrectly.


I haven't assumed anything, but simply pointed out the limitations
such as size and weight and highlighted what is missing.




>
>The ACV for the price and its performance is matchless by other combis
>and separate cylinder and boiler. To get a tank in tank cylinder,
>controls and a 35 KW RR class boiler to deliver 380 litres in 10
>minutes would cost far more than the ACV Heatmaster. Ever thought some
>people might have looked into this?  And have done for the past 7
>years.
>


Probably, and I suspect are more discerning than you regarding
practicality and performance.

You are choosing best case numbers rather than reality.



-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On 17 Sep 2005 16:07:48 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>
>Andy Hall wrote:
>> On 17 Sep 2005 13:30:55 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>> >> >They don't
>> >> >sell to B&Q.
>> >>
>> >> That's neither here or there.
>> >
>> >You must get the point and the market the company is selling to.
>>
>> The gullible?
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >The only spoiler is the quoted 37 minute recovery.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This is disappointing.
>> >> >
>> >> >It "never" delivers less than 15 litres per minute at any time, which
>> >> >is great for showers.
>> >>
>> >> Untrue.   That would assume a temperature increase of 35 degrees. The
>> >> throughput would be less if a higher temperature than 40 degrees were
>> >> required in the winter.
>> >
>> >The makers say it doesn't go below 15 litres, so do the dealers who I
>> >spoke to who deal with many makers products, not only ACV. I prefer to
>> >believe them rather than a confused internet nerd.
>>
>> The only person confused here is you.
>>
>> In the winter, the cold water temperature can easily be 5 degrees.
>> 35kW will produce a 15lpm flow rate for a temperature rise of 35
>> degrees - i.e. an output temperature of 40 degrees.
>
>It delivers 380 litres per minute. 


No it doesn't.   Try a tenth of that for a limited time.


>The 15 litres per minute is a
>welcome backup. 


It would be if it actually achieved it.  However, this only happens
under a limited set of conditions.


>I don't see many situations where the 380 litres would
>be exhausted. 


At 45 degrees, I can.



> 
>You are still confused, or drunk.



I'm never either.



-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

:::Jerry:::: wrote:


> So were do you place your Combi boilers, in the loft, garage,
> outhouse,


Anywhere out of the way not restricting expansion and bathroom and
kitchen fitting.

On 18 Sep 2005 03:26:20 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>
>Andy Hall wrote:
>> On 17 Sep 2005 16:35:28 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:

>> It certainly won't
>> fit into the standard kitchen footprints for appliances.
>>
>> Therefore the conventional system makes a better use of space.
>
>Like a kitchen cupboard taken up by a noisy boiler.


Only if you choose a noisy boiler.   



>
>> - The boiler can fit into a wall cupboard space rather than using up
>> more than an appliance floor footprint; or easily into a loft.
>>
>> - A conventional cylinder is smaller than one of your box packages and
>> uses less space in a cupboard.
>
>A Powermax or Viessmann 33 is neat and smaller.


... Fine,  but they are still a compromise.

Viessmann make good products, but the Vitodens 333 is still larger
than a HW cylinder for consideration for housing in an airing cupboard
and only has 85 litres of HW storage.    This is not going to be a
great performer.

As the manufacturer says - they are intended for people who don't know
whether they need a storage system or combi.

Thus they fall short of what can be achieved by a storage system and
achieve nothing in terms of usable space saving. 



>
>>
>> > I have seem many
>> >Megaflows which don't liberate space in the house, just eliminating a
>> >tank and power shower pump.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> But if this was the case, they're supplying performance - which your
>> >> preferred systems can't match. That your buyers have no clue says much
>> >> about them.
>> >
>> >My viewers and buyers are mainly foreign, who expect high performance
>> >from heating, baths, showers and top kitchens and well fitted
>> >bathrooms.
>>
>> .. and who don't have the experience of anything to compare against.
>
>You are insulting them. 


The boot is on the other foot here.   How many of them have seen a
properly designed and implemented storage system?



>They do have experience of houses, most of
>better specification that the avarage British house.
>


Yes, but you are trying to sell them refurbished British houses using
a technology that is not well suited to that environment.

If they want to buy it, then fine.



>>
>>
>> >I can't speak for what goes in North Yorkshire.
>>
>> .. or anywhere else outside a relatively limited market.
>
>North London has about 3 or 4 million people in it.
>


I'm sure.   But how many naive foreign buyers?


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On 18 Sep 2005 03:18:56 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>
>Andy Hall wrote:
>> On 17 Sep 2005 16:07:48 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:

>> >>
>> >> In the winter, the cold water temperature can easily be 5 degrees.
>> >> 35kW will produce a 15lpm flow rate for a temperature rise of 35
>> >> degrees - i.e. an output temperature of 40 degrees.
>> >
>> >It delivers 380 litres per minute.
>>
>> No it doesn't.   Try a tenth of that for a limited time.
>
>Do you have any concrete evidence that disproves the makers data?  If
>so I would be interested to know.


The maker's data is correct *as far as it goes*.   The issue is that
the case quoted is a best case one for a scenario that is pretty
useless.   15 litres/min is only at less than 35 degrees.

The concrete evidence is in basic laws of thermodynamics where

Energy = mass x specific heat x temperature rise or fall.


Taking 35kw and 15 litres (very close to 15kg) per minute and the
specific heat capacity of water of 4180 J/kg.K gives

35000/((15 x 4180)/60)   for achievable temperature rise and a result
of 33.5 degrees.

Thus if the cold supply is at 5 degrees, which is certainly possible
in winter (5-8 is the normal range), the output temperature can only
be around 40 degrees at the 15 lpm continuous flow rate.


There are thousands of sites on the internet on schoolboy physics
which cover this principle.

If you look at the more meaningful figures of how many litres/hour are
produced, the number at 45 degrees (dt=35) drops to a disappointing
18lpm.





>
>>
>> >The 15 litres per minute is a
>> >welcome backup.
>>
>> It would be if it actually achieved it.  However, this only happens
>> under a limited set of conditions.
>
>Again, if you have any concrete evidence that disproves the makers data
>I would be interested.


Look at the equation above.

If you plug in numbers for higher temperatures, the continuous flow
rate is even less.




>
>>
>> >I don't see many situations where the 380 litres would
>> >be exhausted.
>>
>> At 45 degrees, I can.
>>
>> >
>> >You are still confused, or drunk.
>>
>>
>> I'm never either.
>
>Last night you were certainly drunk.


Nope.   Didn't touch a drop.



-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

wrote in message
news:1126881610.699275.41410@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> Christian McArdle wrote:
> > >> Please do refer to my other post. The time is not unspecified, it is
> > >> clearly 10 minutes. It will fill a 380 litre bath in 10 minutes and a
> > >> normal bath in a few minutes.
> > >
> > > That is not what they explicitly say in the spec.
> > >
> > > They give the rate per 10 minutes which is not the same and it cannot
> > > be continuous.
> >
> > As far as I interpret the figures it is saying (at delta 35):
> >
> > 38lpm for 10 minutes from full store to depleted.
> > 18lpm for 60 minutes from full store to depleted.
> > 15lpm continuous.
> >
> > With a 37 minute recovery.
> >
> > In which case, I would conclude (and from the casing dimensions) that it
has
> > a very sizeable store. Assuming it is essentially a heatbank, I'd guess
> > (10*(38-15)) * (35 / 70) = 115L (assuming heat store at 75C, incoming
mains
> > at 5C), plus a few litres for inefficiency, which is essentially a
standard
> > 450x900 cylinder. Indeed, it sounds so like it, it probably is it.
> >
> > The only spoiler is the quoted 37 minute recovery. The 23lpm (38-15)
delta
> > 35 water should only take 23*10/15 minutes to recover, which is just
under
> > 16 minutes, although it might just be to cover a slow ramping down of
the
> > recovery rate towards the end, which might suggest an indirect coil
method
> > of heating.
> >
> > If it is an unvented cylinder without TMV at 60C, then I make the size
> > (10*(38-15)) * (35 / 55) = 146L plus a bit.
> >
> > Christian.
>
> Go to their web site http://www.acv-uk.com. I downloaded the
> installation instructions. It is the only domestic combi from a large
> commercial range.
>
> IMM said it was a hybrid of unvented cylinder and thermal store. From
> the manual: 108.5 litres in the thermal store (it says heating circuit
> capacity) and a total of 189 litres which means the unvented cylinder
> side is 80 litres. The unvented cylinder is totally immersed within the
> thermal store water. The heating is taken from the thermal store water.
> The heat exchanger runs right through the centre of the two tanks.
>
> The DHW enters into a coil right at the bottom of the cylinder and then
> fills the unvented cylinder at the top after leaving the coil. I think
> this is to keep the bottom cool for the condensing part.
>
> The 37 minutes recovery is from cold to 80 centigrade. It will always
> give 15 litres per minute minimum. In less than 17 minutes a full bath
> could be drawn off (half the 38 litre for 10 minutes, which is 190
> litres). If the bath is 125 litres then about 12 minutes or so, 10
> minutes or les if replying on the 15 litres per minutes to finish off
> at the end of the fill. This thing looks very impressive to me and
> performs better than a separate cylinder, and cheaper as well. A 35 KW
> Viessmann, or ACV boiler, a tank in tank and the controls to deliver
> 380 litres in 10 minutes costs more than the Heatmaster and takes up
> far more space and time to connect up. I am into delivering flows to at
> least 1 bathroom and en-suite, more usually two full bathrooms, and
> this baby delivers without any fuss and all in one box which is easy to
> connect up. It can be unvented from the mains, or vented if the mains
> can't cope, and can't be replaced, and then pumped from a tank. It is
> on the list of choices.


I haven't read all this thread but some good stuff here at last.  You have
it right. The ACV Heatmaster is a combination of:

1. Unvented cylinder,
2. Thermal store
3. Infinitely continuous combi,

There is no compromise. It uses a stainless steel tank-in-tank and a cool
bottom section to promote efficiency.  The best on the market and it does
exactly what it says on the box.  ACV are a top quality manufacturer, with
offices all over the world, who invented the tank-in-tank, which has been
available to the commercial market in the UK for many years. ACV have
introduced a domestic range of tank-in-tanks and the ACV Heatmaster in the
UK this year - the domestic Heatmaster 35kW been here a matter of months.
Tank-in tanks are used extensively on the Continent, because of the rapid
re-heat, resistance to corrosion and scale - the best you can get.

The Heatmaster promotes condensing efficiency by having a near sealed,
bottom section that has the DHW coil running through it to pre-heat the DHW,
and keep the bottom section cool. The CH return also enters this bottom
cooler section too. The DHW enters the bottom pre-heat coil and then into
the upper inner stainless steel cylinder (the tank in the tank). This upper
tank is heated from all sides, even the top, being totally immersed in the
thermal store water - It hangs.  The stainless gas heat exchanger runs right
though the two cylinders (tanks) and out the bottom.

The figures 380 litres in 10 minutes have been mentioned a lot. To get that
by using a separate tank-in-tank cylinder you would need a large cylinder
and a quality 35kW boiler. The cost is more than the Heatmaster, as you have
gleaned, and no infinitely continuous 15 litres/min combi performance that
the Heatmaster offers. To get the 380 litres in 10 mins using a normal
stainless steel indirect cylinder you would need a large 360 litres
cylinder, which would be bigger than the Heatmaster itself and then the
boiler to try and locate somewhere....and cost more. The Heatmaster, as long
as the thermal store inhibitor is replaced every 4 years, should last 50
years. It is simple, with the burner being a detachable standard part
modulating pre-mix commercial unit.

For a full two bathroom property the Heatmaster is brilliant and great value
for money. It will do three baths as long as three are not run at the same
time (a rare event in a domestic house).

Don't make issue with the lunatics as they have nothing to offer for anyone
to gain from, you have already figured it out. They go boozing with Phil
Kyle. If I had to replace my system right now the Heatmaster would be right
at the top of the list.  It is a one off purchase as it will probably
outlive most people.

timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
  > If you can "specifically" point out any misgivings by ACV I would

> appreciate it, as I maybe in the market for one. The Scottish
> Parliament has a number of them, 


Some recommendation that is, years over programme, millions over budget, 
  and still a problem with pigeons getting in.

But I expect they do have very nice laminate flooring and stylish taps 
in the bogs, so a first class building.

Owain

wrote in message
news:1127039326.882557.109240@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> :::Jerry:::: wrote:
>
> > So were do you place your Combi boilers, in the loft, garage,
> > outhouse,
>
> Anywhere out of the way not restricting expansion and bathroom and
> kitchen fitting.
>


You mean anywhere that is thus inconvenient, a typical developers
solution, clueless as they never have to live in their own
creations....

timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


> I can't speak for what goes in North Yorkshire.


Ignorant southern tw*t

Back to that counter Dribble, more copper tank sales means more exotic
holidays for me.


--

timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>North London has about 3 or 4 million people in it.


......surrounded by water around their ankles and no gas or
electricity.


--

timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which have
>the fastest recovery of any cylinder available..


No they don't.   All that leaflet reading in the bog and you still get
the facts wrong. 


--

timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>Think hard about it. I did
>because as I had to deliver. It really does focus the mind.


But you left yours on the top deck of a bus many moons ago.


--

In article ,
    wrote:

> > >It delivers 380 litres per minute.
> >
> > No it doesn't.   Try a tenth of that for a limited time.

> Do you have any concrete evidence that disproves the makers data?  If
> so I would be interested to know.


FFS, do the calculation for a pipe size to deliver 380 litres a minute.
You're into fire appliance territory.

-- 
*I don't work here. I'm a consultant

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)"  wrote in message
news:4dac62eab5dave@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article ,
>     wrote:
> > > >It delivers 380 litres per minute.
> > >
> > > No it doesn't.   Try a tenth of that for a limited time.
>
> > Do you have any concrete evidence that disproves the makers data?  If
> > so I would be interested to know.
>
> FFS, do the calculation for a pipe size to deliver 380 litres a minute.
> You're into fire appliance territory.


You were boasting you could get 30 l/min from your hot tap.What calcs did
you do? The finger in the air electric caber calculations.  38 l/min from a
25mm MDPE pipe is quite common.

You boasted a combi could not beat your 30 l/min and if one did you would go
out and buy it. One has so when are buying it?  A Welsher eh!

"Matt"  wrote in message
news:jjqqi1193ec3aghdjfu98965e6sh65k9fh@4ax.com...

> timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >Think hard about it. I did
> >because as I had to deliver. It really does focus the mind.
>
> But you left yours on the top deck of a bus many moons ago.


This one lower than whale shit. Implying people leave bombs on buses.  Not
funny Buster.

"Matt"  wrote in message
news:23qqi1doff90r50oocjqvva4155akg098c@4ax.com...

> timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which have
> >the fastest recovery of any cylinder available..
>
> No they don't.


What copper cylinder company do you work for?

"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:54jqi1l6au2r8c2ljn377qj1tfbl5q02o0@4ax.com...

> On 18 Sep 2005 03:18:56 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> >Andy Hall wrote:
> >> On 17 Sep 2005 16:07:48 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >> >>
> >> >> In the winter, the cold water temperature can easily be 5 degrees.
> >> >> 35kW will produce a 15lpm flow rate for a temperature rise of 35
> >> >> degrees - i.e. an output temperature of 40 degrees.
> >> >
> >> >It delivers 380 litres per minute.
> >>
> >> No it doesn't.   Try a tenth of that for a limited time.
> >
> >Do you have any concrete evidence that disproves the makers data?  If
> >so I would be interested to know.
>
> The maker's data is correct *as far as it goes*.   The issue is that
> the case quoted is a best case one for a scenario that is pretty
> useless.   15 litres/min is only at less than 35 degrees.


The table below says @ 35C 15 litres/min.
"Constant flow at 45C [delta T = 35C] L/h 898"

TGB posted this.....


>>>>>

DOMESTIC HOT WATER FEATURES
HeatMaster
Operating conditions at 80C 35 TC

Peak flow at 40C [delta T = 30C] L/10' 419
Peak flow at 40C [delta  = 30C] L/60' 1312
Constant flow at 40C [delta T = 30C] L/h 1057
Peak flow at 45C [delta T = 35C] L/10' 381
Peak flow at 45C [delta T = 35C] L/60' 1080
Constant flow at 45C [delta T = 35C] L/h 898
Peak flow at 60C [delta T = 50C] L/10' 224
Peak flow at 60C [delta T = 50C] L/60' 692
Constant flow at 60C [delta T = 50C] L/h 578

Pre-heat time minutes 37
<<<<<

<snip total skool physics balls>

Some mothers do 'ave 'em.

"Dave Plowman (News)"  through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message news:4dac0074e1dave@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article ,
>     wrote:
> > Most do not at all.  50% of all new homes still have tanks and
> > cylinders taking up the airing cupboard and gravity showers. My buyers
> > would not tolerate such poor performance and clutter.
>
> For a start I'd dispute this.


You were told 50% use tanks and cylinders. You are making things up again.


> Most new houses are built down to a price -
> and costs certainly rule out a storage system. It's far cheaper to install
> a combi.


Any figures to back this up, or is it just normal senile blabber.

"Dave Plowman (News)"  through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message news:4dabe44e19dave@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article ,
>     wrote:
> > > > You should read the post properly, theat time is a recovery time,
not a
> > > > bath filling time. The ACV will fill a bath faster than your system.
> > >
> > > No it won't - it hasn't got a large enough store of water at 60C.
> > >
> > > Didn't you understand Andy's figures?
>
> > I go by the makers figures. It will deliver 60C to one bath faster than
> > your system, so when are you going to buy one? You said you would. :)
>
> > Who has a 60C bath?  Do you want third degree burns?
>
> Sigh. I want *my* bath filled to the level I want quickly. Which means
> mixing hot at 60 degrees and about 30 litres per minute with cold at about
> the same flow. Which fills *my* bath in about the time it takes to get
> undressed etc.


Which at your age is all day.

"Dave Plowman (News)"  through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message news:4dabe3c277dave@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article ,
>     wrote:
> > I don't follow fashion. I just give people what they want to a high
> > quality. Quality sells.
>
> Maybe to an innocent doing a first time purchase. What you seem to
> recommend wouldn't suit me.


Because there isn't comode in every room.

"Dave Plowman (News)"  through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message news:4dabc3101edave@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article ,
>     wrote:
> > You should read the post properly, theat time is a recovery time, not a
> > bath filling time. The ACV will fill a bath faster than your system.
>
> No it won't - it hasn't got a large enough store of water at 60C.


It fills a bath at 38 litres/min at bath temperature.  In this weather it
will go up to 42 l/min....and never run out of hot water.

When are you buying one?

"Dave Plowman (News)"  through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message news:4dabc251fbdave@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article ,
>     wrote:
> > > The objective of restoring period properties is not just about making
> > > a quick buck.
>
> > Anything old, antiques and all that, is exactly about making quick
> > bucks. Rennovating to high quality is not. It is about quality and
> > giving the buyers what they want, which is clean modern designs in 90%
> > of cases.
>
> That may well be the case for you running your business.
> But this is a DIY group, and many DIY because they want the best for
> *themselves* - not just what is profitable for a developer to foist upon
> them.


As most are obsessed with house values (it is news headline stuff) the man
speaks sense. He knows his game and how to maximise value. You don't.

"Dave Plowman (News)"  through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message news:4dab7e60badave@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article ,
>     wrote:
> > In less than 17 minutes a full bath could be drawn off
> 
> Great. Mine takes about five minutes. For a large bath filled to the brim
> with piping hot water.


Struth!!!!

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:49:03 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
 wrote:


>
>"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>news:54jqi1l6au2r8c2ljn377qj1tfbl5q02o0@4ax.com...
>> On 18 Sep 2005 03:18:56 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Andy Hall wrote:
>> >> On 17 Sep 2005 16:07:48 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In the winter, the cold water temperature can easily be 5 degrees.
>> >> >> 35kW will produce a 15lpm flow rate for a temperature rise of 35
>> >> >> degrees - i.e. an output temperature of 40 degrees.
>> >> >
>> >> >It delivers 380 litres per minute.
>> >>
>> >> No it doesn't.   Try a tenth of that for a limited time.
>> >
>> >Do you have any concrete evidence that disproves the makers data?  If
>> >so I would be interested to know.
>>
>> The maker's data is correct *as far as it goes*.   The issue is that
>> the case quoted is a best case one for a scenario that is pretty
>> useless.   15 litres/min is only at less than 35 degrees.
>
>The table below says @ 35C 15 litres/min.
>"Constant flow at 45C [delta T = 35C] L/h 898"


Exactly.  This would require 10 degrees in and that is very optimistic
in the winter.


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:g59ri19amdquu6a6s08aos7hggp5o906n7@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:49:03 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
>  wrote:
>
> >
> >"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> >news:54jqi1l6au2r8c2ljn377qj1tfbl5q02o0@4ax.com...
> >> On 18 Sep 2005 03:18:56 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Andy Hall wrote:
> >> >> On 17 Sep 2005 16:07:48 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> In the winter, the cold water temperature can easily be 5
degrees.
> >> >> >> 35kW will produce a 15lpm flow rate for a temperature rise of 35
> >> >> >> degrees - i.e. an output temperature of 40 degrees.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >It delivers 380 litres per minute.
> >> >>
> >> >> No it doesn't.   Try a tenth of that for a limited time.
> >> >
> >> >Do you have any concrete evidence that disproves the makers data?  If
> >> >so I would be interested to know.
> >>
> >> The maker's data is correct *as far as it goes*.   The issue is that
> >> the case quoted is a best case one for a scenario that is pretty
> >> useless.   15 litres/min is only at less than 35 degrees.
> >
> >The table below says @ 35C 15 litres/min.
> >"Constant flow at 45C [delta T = 35C] L/h 898"
>
> Exactly.  This would require 10 degrees in and that is very optimistic
> in the winter.


Many have 10C in winter once the mains pipe is deep enough, which the main
supply pipe usually is.  Only the service legs to the house rise up to the
lower earth temps. If in constant use the legs should be exhausted of cool
water.

Mine is 18C coming in right now. I have a thermometer on the pipe.

I just read what you wrote above, which is a total load of crap.

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 19:13:12 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
 wrote:


>

>
>Many have 10C in winter once the mains pipe is deep enough, which the main
>supply pipe usually is.  Only the service legs to the house rise up to the
>lower earth temps. If in constant use the legs should be exhausted of cool
>water.
>
>Mine is 18C coming in right now. I have a thermometer on the pipe.


It should be.  The ground is still warm from the summer.

In February/March it can easily be in the 5-8 degree range because the
ground temperature will have fallen significantly through the winter.
It works both ways.

-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Doctor Drivel"  wrote:


>
>"Matt"  wrote in message
>news:jjqqi1193ec3aghdjfu98965e6sh65k9fh@4ax.com...
>> timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >Think hard about it. I did
>> >because as I had to deliver. It really does focus the mind.
>>
>> But you left yours on the top deck of a bus many moons ago.
>
>This one lower than whale shit. Implying people leave bombs on buses.  Not
>funny Buster.


Dribble you have one very seriously warped mind if you think that's
what I implied.


--

"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:f9aqi1hsrbsngu2jpmgu08el4k320v8jss@4ax.com...

> On 17 Sep 2005 16:26:18 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> >Andy Hall wrote:
> >> On 17 Sep 2005 13:43:19 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
> >>
>
> >> >>
> >> >> The spec. is *not* clear on the point of the size of the store at
all.
> >> >
> >> >It is very clear. Please look again.
> >>
> >> I have.  It is not clear.
> >
> >It is Saturday night and back from the pub.
>
>
> Are you ?


Lord Hall has been out with Phil Kyle.


> >> >> >> >his thing looks very impressive to me and
> >> >> >> >performs better than a separate cylinder, and cheaper as well.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Untrue.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I have looked at the specs, it performs better.
> >> >>
> >> >> Nonsense.  You don't have figures for a separate cylinder.
> >> >
> >> >I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which have
> >> >the fastest recovery of any cylinder available..
> >>
> >> Says who?
> >
> >Just about everyone. Tank in tanks have the fastest recovery rate of
> >any tanks.
>
> I'm fully aware of that, and it is fairly obvious as a result of the
> heat exchange contact area.


Then  why do you say "says who?" to him?


> I was asking for information confirming that the ACV Smart range is
> the fastest recovery of any cylinder available as you have asserted.


Tank-in-tank are.  It just something anyone in the heating game knows.


> >> >
> >> >> Since it
> >> >> is possible to design a storage system component by component, it is
> >> >> possible to achieve virtually whatever performance is wanted.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >If you have all the space in the world and a bottom les pit of money
> >> >then you are right. However, I live in the real world.
> >>
> >> The thing is that it is possible to fit a better system than the ACV
> >> box into about the same amount of usable space far more conveniently
> >> and without needing a crane to do it.
> >
> >I know of none. What system? I am eager to know.
>
> Very simple.  Fast recovery cylinder of storage capacity adequate for
> the requirements under all conditions of water temperature and pattern
> of use.


Stop prattling crap.


> >> >> >I looked at a megaflow and they were around 1.5K with all the
valves
> >> >> >attached, then I would have to buy a top quality boiler around 30
kiloW
> >> >> >pushing it up to well over 2K. I may as well buy a Viessmann,
> >> >> >Gledhill or ACV floor mounted combi and save money, hassle and lots
of
> >> >> >space.
> >> >>
> >> >> Except that it doesn't save any usable space at all.
> >> >
> >> >It does, that is why I have homed in on it.
> >>
> >> I said *usable* space.
> >
> >I know.
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> The thing is
> >> >> larger than the footprint of a washing machine and taller as well.
> >> >> It's also larger than a domestic cylinder footprint.
> >> >
> >> >About the same as a cylinder has valves hanging off it.  There is no
> >> >separate boiler taking up space.
> >>
> >> The difference is that a system boiler can be conveniently fitted in a
> >> kitchen cupboard space,
> >
> >A kitchen? Are you kidding?
>
> They do in mine.


Do you washing you dishes in the bathroom as well?


> Are you buying kitchen furniture in funny places as
> well or is your problem that you are renovating council flats?
>
>
> >
> >> an airing cupboard or a loft.
> >
> >Why have two when one can do it? There is no logic in that, only extra
> >expense, time and valuable space used up.
>
> There's every logic in it.   By having separate components it is
> possible to locate them easily in a whole variety of places
> appropriate to the situation.  If you have a single big box, you are
> going to have to provision specially for it.


Like in the loft. The single biog box is the size of your cylinder.


> How do you expect to get a 670mm box weighing 170kg into a loft space?


You have no imagination.


> >> A cylinder can
> >> be fitted into an airing cupboard or loft.
> >
> >Why have two one one can do it cheaper.
>
> Because it's possible and can make more efficient use of space.

It can't.

> >> Your box of tricks is of a non-standard size and is extremely heavy.
> >
> >Standard size? It would not be fitting in a kitchen.
>
> So space from another room wood have to be found.....
>
>
>
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > am into delivering flows to at
> >> >> >> >least 1 bathroom and en-suite, more usually two full bathrooms,
and
> >> >> >> >this baby delivers without any fuss and all in one box which is
easy to
> >> >> >> >connect up.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I can see why you would find it attractive.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Read above and read the specs.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> I have.
> >> >
> >> >You haven't that is clear.
> >>
> >> That sounds like a typical IMM phrase.
> >
> >He does impress.
>
> He might impress you, but you are in a minority of two, with him being
> the other.


And the other fans.  I am not in the Phil Kyle fan club you are president
of.


> >> >> The critical information is missing, and the manufacturer
> >> >> feels that the product is light in weight which it isn't.
> >> >>
> >> >> I am not as easily impressed as you are.
> >> >
> >> >If you can "specifically" point out any misgivings by ACV I would
> >> >appreciate it, as I maybe in the market for one.
> >>
> >> I already have, several times,
> >
> >You have not at all. You have pointed out absolutely nothing. All you
> >have done is go on about separate boilers in kitchens and cylinders.
>
> I've made the shortcomings completely clear.  The manufacturer avoids
> these areas, understandably.


You have made things up.


> If you have managed to convince yourself, or allowed yourself to be
> convinced by the marketing materials that this product meets your
> needs, then you may not want to hear the negatives about it.   That's
> your prerogative, but it doesn't make the deficiencies go away.


The Heatmaster does what it says on the box.  You are jealous because you
haven't got one.


> >> and I'm not going to repeat the very
> >> obvious limitations.   If you want to choose to ignore the
> >> limitations, then that's up to you.
> >
> >You haven't given any at all, except say a separate boiler and cylinder
> >can go in kitchens. Any data you gave was assumed and utter wrong.
>
> It isn't.

It was.

> Take a look at the missing information


Point it out.


> and the issues of size and
> weight.

>
> >
> >>
> >> >The Scottish
> >> >Parliament has a number of them, so maybe you can out us all right. As
> >> >yet you have not. All you have done is assume. I am still open.
> >>
> >> WHat the Scottish Parliament has to do with any of this I have no
> >> idea.
> >
> >They have a number of them. If they are inadequate I'm sure they would
> >like to know, as I would too.
>
> Considering that the project was massively over budget and late, I
> wouldn't treat anything or anybody involved in its construction as
> being in any way reliable.


He didn't ask about the budget of the build.  Boy are you dumb at times.


> >> I haven't assumed anything.  All I have done is to look at the
> >> spec.sheets and brochures and have pointed out pieces that are missing
> >> or glossed over.
> >
> >Look at the installation manual. You have assumed lots, and concluded
> >incorrectly.
>
> I haven't assumed anything,


I know.  You just made it all up.


> >The ACV for the price and its performance is matchless by other combis
> >and separate cylinder and boiler. To get a tank in tank cylinder,
> >controls and a 35 KW RR class boiler to deliver 380 litres in 10
> >minutes would cost far more than the ACV Heatmaster. Ever thought some
> >people might have looked into this?  And have done for the past 7
> >years.
>
> Probably, and I suspect are more discerning than you regarding
> practicality and performance.
>
> You are choosing best case numbers rather than reality.


He chose the makers numbers which were highly comprehensive in complete
table.  This is not a fast sell B&Q product - it is high quality in design,
performance and manufacture. Those who buy it will know their stuff and
don't take too kindly to being misled. You don't mislead the commercial
professionals, otherwise they don't come back. So, companies like ACV,
Viessmann, etc are totally up front. They have the products that do what
they say they do, they have no need to tell lies. Most of the Heatmaster
range is aimed at the commercial sector. The Heatmaster 35kW originated in
the commercial range and adapted for the domestic market.

How is your mussie these days?

"Doctor Drivel"  wrote:


>
>"Matt"  wrote in message
>news:23qqi1doff90r50oocjqvva4155akg098c@4ax.com...
>> timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which have
>> >the fastest recovery of any cylinder available..
>>
>> No they don't.
>
>What copper cylinder company do you work for?


The one that just gave me an all expenses paid holiday on a white sand
beach under clear blue skies surrounded by more gadgets than I could
use in a lifetime, with numerous dusky maidens attending to my every
need 24 hours a day.  There is a whole world beyond your council
estate Drivel, but everyone including the HSE, Thames Water and
Transco would prefer you stay put.

The future's bright the future's copper.

--

"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:9idri1lgat7puea9fpq1ekl5lggnqp8lnu@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 19:13:12 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
>  wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
> >Many have 10C in winter once the mains pipe is deep enough, which the
main
> >supply pipe usually is.  Only the service legs to the house rise up to
the
> >lower earth temps. If in constant use the legs should be exhausted of
cool
> >water.
> >
> >Mine is 18C coming in right now. I have a thermometer on the pipe.
>
> It should be.  The ground is still warm from the summer.
>
> In February/March it can easily be in the 5-8 degree range because the
> ground temperature will have fallen significantly through the winter.
> It works both ways.


Depends how deep the mains is, the deeper the warmer.

"Matt"  wrote in message
news:9neri19eiainverfojr1pddrpcgr52mmbc@4ax.com...

> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
>
> >
> >"Matt"  wrote in message
> >news:jjqqi1193ec3aghdjfu98965e6sh65k9fh@4ax.com...
> >> timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >Think hard about it. I did
> >> >because as I had to deliver. It really does focus the mind.
> >>
> >> But you left yours on the top deck of a bus many moons ago.
> >
> >This one is lower than whale shit. Implying people leave bombs on buses.
Not
> >funny Buster.
>
> Dribble you have one very seriously warped mind if you think that's
> what I implied.


Of course that is what you implied.  Weirdo!

IMM wrote


> My viewers and buyers are mainly foreign, who expect high performance
> from heating, baths, showers and top kitchens and well fitted
> bathrooms.


	The products of the IMM imagination are really something! I suggest 
that when his IQ progresses to 2 he should sell!

	LOL
	Regards
	Capitol

Andy Hall wrote:


> 
> The boot is on the other foot here.   How many of them have seen a
> properly designed and implemented storage system?
> 
> 

	Most if they are American. 50-100 gallon storage units are commonplace. 
(and have a 10 year warranty!)

	Regards
	Capitol

"Doctor Drivel"  wrote:


>Mine is 18C coming in right now. I have a thermometer on the pipe.


And when precisely was your thermometer last calibrated?

What is the thermal conductivity of the pipe?

.......and are you sure that is not the outlet temp from your shanty
town water heater?

--

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:14:24 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
 wrote:


>
>"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>news:f9aqi1hsrbsngu2jpmgu08el4k320v8jss@4ax.com...
>> On 17 Sep 2005 16:26:18 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Andy Hall wrote:
>> >> On 17 Sep 2005 13:43:19 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>> >>
>>

>> >> >
>> >> >I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which have
>> >> >the fastest recovery of any cylinder available..
>> >>
>> >> Says who?
>> >
>> >Just about everyone. Tank in tanks have the fastest recovery rate of
>> >any tanks.
>>
>> I'm fully aware of that, and it is fairly obvious as a result of the
>> heat exchange contact area.
>
>Then  why do you say "says who?" to him?


Read the thread.
The question was explicitly related to the assertion about the ACV
Smart having the fastest recovery of any cylinder available, not about
the technology used.




>
>> I was asking for information confirming that the ACV Smart range is
>> the fastest recovery of any cylinder available as you have asserted.
>
>Tank-in-tank are.  It just something anyone in the heating game knows.


That's completely obvious as a result of the surface area for heat
transfer.    However, the question was about the specific product, not
the technology.





>
>Do you washing you dishes in the bathroom as well?


Nope.  The dishwasher is used for that.   


>
>> Are you buying kitchen furniture in funny places as
>> well or is your problem that you are renovating council flats?
>>
>>
>> >
>> >> an airing cupboard or a loft.
>> >
>> >Why have two when one can do it? There is no logic in that, only extra
>> >expense, time and valuable space used up.
>>
>> There's every logic in it.   By having separate components it is
>> possible to locate them easily in a whole variety of places
>> appropriate to the situation.  If you have a single big box, you are
>> going to have to provision specially for it.
>
>Like in the loft. The single biog box is the size of your cylinder.
>
>> How do you expect to get a 670mm box weighing 170kg into a loft space?
>
>You have no imagination.
>


That's a good one.   I don't have a crane.    Hacksaws are not that
good for sawing through ceiling joists......






>> >> A cylinder can
>> >> be fitted into an airing cupboard or loft.
>> >
>> >Why have two one one can do it cheaper.
>>
>> Because it's possible and can make more efficient use of space.
>
>It can't.


I specifically used the terms "usable space" and "efficient use of
space"  as opposed to the simple volumetric measure that you have
used.




>> >> >> The critical information is missing, and the manufacturer
>> >> >> feels that the product is light in weight which it isn't.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I am not as easily impressed as you are.
>> >> >
>> >> >If you can "specifically" point out any misgivings by ACV I would
>> >> >appreciate it, as I maybe in the market for one.
>> >>
>> >> I already have, several times,
>> >
>> >You have not at all. You have pointed out absolutely nothing. All you
>> >have done is go on about separate boilers in kitchens and cylinders.
>>
>> I've made the shortcomings completely clear.  The manufacturer avoids
>> these areas, understandably.
>
>You have made things up.


I've simply highlighted the shortcomings - an area where manufacturers
tend to be economic with information.   All the data is there - the
issue is to look at all cases of operation and not just the best.



>
>> If you have managed to convince yourself, or allowed yourself to be
>> convinced by the marketing materials that this product meets your
>> needs, then you may not want to hear the negatives about it.   That's
>> your prerogative, but it doesn't make the deficiencies go away.
>
>The Heatmaster does what it says on the box.  


Of course.  The question is whether that is true under all conditions
of operation that can be encountered.   Under less than optimum
conditions, the performance drops markedly.




>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> >The Scottish
>> >> >Parliament has a number of them, so maybe you can out us all right. As
>> >> >yet you have not. All you have done is assume. I am still open.
>> >>
>> >> WHat the Scottish Parliament has to do with any of this I have no
>> >> idea.
>> >
>> >They have a number of them. If they are inadequate I'm sure they would
>> >like to know, as I would too.
>>
>> Considering that the project was massively over budget and late, I
>> wouldn't treat anything or anybody involved in its construction as
>> being in any way reliable.
>
>He didn't ask about the budget of the build.  


The point is that it is hardly a high quality customer reference.



>
>> >The ACV for the price and its performance is matchless by other combis
>> >and separate cylinder and boiler. To get a tank in tank cylinder,
>> >controls and a 35 KW RR class boiler to deliver 380 litres in 10
>> >minutes would cost far more than the ACV Heatmaster. Ever thought some
>> >people might have looked into this?  And have done for the past 7
>> >years.
>>
>> Probably, and I suspect are more discerning than you regarding
>> practicality and performance.
>>
>> You are choosing best case numbers rather than reality.
>
>He chose the makers numbers which were highly comprehensive in complete
>table.  


.... and like you, picked the best ones.



>This is not a fast sell B&Q product - it is high quality in design,
>performance and manufacture. 


I am not disputing the design or the quality.  I am simply pointing
out that one needs to look at *all* of the data to determine how well
it performs.





>Those who buy it will know their stuff and
>don't take too kindly to being misled. You don't mislead the commercial
>professionals, otherwise they don't come back. So, companies like ACV,
>Viessmann, etc are totally up front. They have the products that do what
>they say they do, they have no need to tell lies. 


I am not saying that they are telling lies, simply that you and TGB
are looking only at the best case conditions, ignoring what can easily
happen under operational situations; that being distinctly worse.

Some of the market-speak is something of a stretch.   The dimensions
do not fit well with typical UK locations available for the box and it
is far from being light weight as suggested in the brochure.



-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Capitol"  wrote in message
news:dgkerq$833$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
<snip>

>
> The products of the IMM imagination are really something! I suggest
> that when his IQ progresses to 2 he should sell!
>


I think you missed the decimal point off before the figure 2

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:18:55 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
 wrote:


>
>"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>news:9idri1lgat7puea9fpq1ekl5lggnqp8lnu@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 19:13:12 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
>>  wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>> >Many have 10C in winter once the mains pipe is deep enough, which the
>main
>> >supply pipe usually is.  Only the service legs to the house rise up to
>the
>> >lower earth temps. If in constant use the legs should be exhausted of
>cool
>> >water.
>> >
>> >Mine is 18C coming in right now. I have a thermometer on the pipe.
>>
>> It should be.  The ground is still warm from the summer.
>>
>> In February/March it can easily be in the 5-8 degree range because the
>> ground temperature will have fallen significantly through the winter.
>> It works both ways.
>
>Depends how deep the mains is, the deeper the warmer.



Not quite.   The deeper the less the rate of temperature change. Here
we are talking about seasonal effects.



-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

:::Jerry:::: wrote:


> "Capitol"  wrote in message
> news:dgkerq$833$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> <snip>
> 
>>The products of the IMM imagination are really something! I suggest
>>that when his IQ progresses to 2 he should sell!
>>
> 
> 
> I think you missed the decimal point off before the figure 2
> 
> 

	Sorry. You're right!!

	Regards
	Capitol

In article <432d9aa6$0$7941$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
   Doctor Drivel  wrote:

> > FFS, do the calculation for a pipe size to deliver 380 litres a minute.
> > You're into fire appliance territory.

> You were boasting you could get 30 l/min from your hot tap.What calcs
> did you do? The finger in the air electric caber calculations.  38 l/min
> from a 25mm MDPE pipe is quite common.


Now I know you're the same person. It says *380* litres per minute, you
thick shit.

-- 
*I can see your point, but I still think you're full of shit. 

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
timegoesby@my-deja.com writes

>> >
>> Most housebuilders give this
>
>Most do not at all.  50% of all new homes still have tanks and
>cylinders taking up the airing cupboard and gravity showers. My buyers
>would not tolerate such poor performance and clutter.
>

That's nonsense, most people prefer traditional systems, you are mixing
up what you're selling, with what people want (they are not necessarily
the same thing) your logic is that people won't buy a property with an
"inadequate" heating system which, again, is nonsense. People buy houses
all the time with inadequate or unsuitable something or other, you
parcel your properties up to sell, fair enough but don't mistake that
for an approval that you have hit on a perfect product, all you've done
is packaged it properly. Look at Gerald Ratner, none of his customers
realised he sold crap until he told them.    



>> and most of them build crap houses that
>> look good spec wise.
>
>Soem are crap, yet some are quite decent. You can't generalise.
>
>> I think you're mixing ideals here, its easy to
>> dress something up to sell but that doesn't mean the "discerning" buyer
>> has got something that works for them, many crap products are sold by
>> using glossy brochures, clever specs and salesmanship,
>
>They look around and see what they are getting. The good points are
>pointed out to them: Tower Showers at high pressure, boarded lofts with
>shoot down ladders and lights up there. Downlighters, fully equipped
>and modern kitchens, fully equipped and modern bathrooms, laminated
>floors, conservatories, rewired, repiped, and the rest.
>

Again its packaging and well done too you for putting together something
that sells.



>> I think you give
>> you're buyers too much credit, most housebuyers make their decision long
>> before they have checked that there are mixer taps and "state of the
>> art" water heating systems.
>
>These are not new homes, they are oldish houses renovated. I "never"
>underestimate the buyers. Firstly function. The showers, baths and CH
>have to perform. Enough sockets about. double glazing, washing machines
>piped in and the same with dishwashers, lots of space. Then form,
>decor, modern kitchen and utility room (could be function as well) and
>bathroom and en-suite (essential these days), which must have modern
>mixers (modern bathroom taps and mixer sell as they exude quality, I
>try to fit wall mounted side-on bath mixers), modern lighting which may
>be downlighters or wall lights on dimmers, no pipes or cables on show,
>nice plain garden with broad leaf pot plants, quality door handles and
>quality front door.  
>
>Just common sense.
>

and selling
-- 
David

"Dave Plowman (News)"  through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message news:4da9e2da3bdave@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <43260993$0$47507$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
>    Doctor Drivel  wrote:
> > > > "Yes and no" answers seem to be so last week at the moment. 8-;
> > >
> > > Just wait till Drivel comes back from holiday. ;-)
> 
> > I am and I believe you are shagging Mary.
> 
> Sad the holiday didn't fix your brain.


Is Mary a man?

"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:0tiri1dvf1ghpsrhj2khh52g0eufhd8n6p@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:14:24 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
>  wrote:
>
> >
> >"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> >news:f9aqi1hsrbsngu2jpmgu08el4k320v8jss@4ax.com...
> >> On 17 Sep 2005 16:26:18 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Andy Hall wrote:
> >> >> On 17 Sep 2005 13:43:19 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
> >> >>
> >>
>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which
have
> >> >> >the fastest recovery of any cylinder available..
> >> >>
> >> >> Says who?
> >> >
> >> >Just about everyone. Tank in tanks have the fastest recovery rate of
> >> >any tanks.
> >>
> >> I'm fully aware of that, and it is fairly obvious as a result of the
> >> heat exchange contact area.
> >
> >Then  why do you say "says who?" to him?
>
> Read the thread.
> The question was explicitly related to the assertion about the ACV
> Smart having the fastest recovery of any cylinder available, not about
> the technology used.


If it was tank-in-tank it would be wouldn't it? You had never heard of
tank-in-tank until you read it on this thread.


> >> I was asking for information confirming that the ACV Smart range is
> >> the fastest recovery of any cylinder available as you have asserted.
> >
> >Tank-in-tank are.  It just something anyone in the heating game knows.
>
> That's completely obvious as a result of the surface area for heat
> transfer.    However, the question was about the specific product, not
> the technology.


If it was tank-in-tank it would be wouldn't it?


> >Do you washing you dishes in the bathroom as well?
>
> Nope.  The dishwasher is used for that.


In the bathroom?


> >> Are you buying kitchen furniture in funny places as
> >> well or is your problem that you are renovating council flats?
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> an airing cupboard or a loft.
> >> >
> >> >Why have two when one can do it? There is no logic in that, only extra
> >> >expense, time and valuable space used up.
> >>
> >> There's every logic in it.   By having separate components it is
> >> possible to locate them easily in a whole variety of places
> >> appropriate to the situation.  If you have a single big box, you are
> >> going to have to provision specially for it.
> >
> >Like in the loft. The single biog box is the size of your cylinder.
> >
> >> How do you expect to get a 670mm box weighing 170kg into a loft space?
> >
> >You have no imagination.
> >
>
> That's a good one.   I don't have a crane.    Hacksaws are not that
> good for sawing through ceiling joists......

They are.

> >> >> A cylinder can
> >> >> be fitted into an airing cupboard or loft.
> >> >
> >> >Why have two one one can do it cheaper.
> >>
> >> Because it's possible and can make more efficient use of space.
> >
> >It can't.
>
> I specifically used the terms "usable space" and "efficient use of
> space"  as opposed to the simple volumetric measure that you have
> used.


An equivalent cylinder to deliver 380 litre in 10 mins would be 360-380,
nearest 400 litres.  That is "big", bigger than the ACV


> >> >> >> The critical information is missing, and the manufacturer
> >> >> >> feels that the product is light in weight which it isn't.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I am not as easily impressed as you are.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >If you can "specifically" point out any misgivings by ACV I would
> >> >> >appreciate it, as I maybe in the market for one.
> >> >>
> >> >> I already have, several times,
> >> >
> >> >You have not at all. You have pointed out absolutely nothing. All you
> >> >have done is go on about separate boilers in kitchens and cylinders.
> >>
> >> I've made the shortcomings completely clear.  The manufacturer avoids
> >> these areas, understandably.
> >
> >You have made things up.
>
> I've simply highlighted the shortcomings


You made things up.


> >> If you have managed to convince yourself, or allowed yourself to be
> >> convinced by the marketing materials that this product meets your
> >> needs, then you may not want to hear the negatives about it.   That's
> >> your prerogative, but it doesn't make the deficiencies go away.
> >
> >The Heatmaster does what it says on the box.
>
> Of course.


Then what are you babbling on about?



> >> >> >The Scottish
> >> >> >Parliament has a number of them, so maybe you can out us all right.
As
> >> >> >yet you have not. All you have done is assume. I am still open.
> >> >>
> >> >> WHat the Scottish Parliament has to do with any of this I have no
> >> >> idea.
> >> >
> >> >They have a number of them. If they are inadequate I'm sure they would
> >> >like to know, as I would too.
> >>
> >> Considering that the project was massively over budget and late, I
> >> wouldn't treat anything or anybody involved in its construction as
> >> being in any way reliable.
> >
> >He didn't ask about the budget of the build.
>
> The point is that it is hardly a high quality customer reference.

It is.

> >> >The ACV for the price and its performance is matchless by other combis
> >> >and separate cylinder and boiler. To get a tank in tank cylinder,
> >> >controls and a 35 KW RR class boiler to deliver 380 litres in 10
> >> >minutes would cost far more than the ACV Heatmaster. Ever thought some
> >> >people might have looked into this?  And have done for the past 7
> >> >years.
> >>
> >> Probably, and I suspect are more discerning than you regarding
> >> practicality and performance.
> >>
> >> You are choosing best case numbers rather than reality.
> >
> >He chose the makers numbers which were highly comprehensive in complete
> >table.
>
> ... and like you, picked the best ones.


No. he pasted the whole table.


> >This is not a fast sell B&Q product - it is high quality in design,
> >performance and manufacture.
>
> I am not disputing the design or the quality.  I am simply pointing
> out that one needs to look at *all* of the data to determine how well
> it performs.


Exactly, and are unable to interpret it.


> >Those who buy it will know their stuff and
> >don't take too kindly to being misled. You don't mislead the commercial
> >professionals, otherwise they don't come back. So, companies like ACV,
> >Viessmann, etc are totally up front. They have the products that do what
> >they say they do, they have no need to tell lies.
>
> I am not saying that they are telling lies, simply that you and TGB
> are looking only at the best case conditions, ignoring what can easily
> happen under operational situations; that being distinctly worse.


Do you expect a solar winter to arrive any day now?


> Some of the market-speak is something of a stretch.   The dimensions
> do not fit well with typical UK locations


What locations are those?  A kitchen?  What a mentality.


> available for the box and it
> is far from being light weight as suggested in the brochure.


Light enough to be manhandled by two or three men. Easy.  The size is
dictated by door widths to move into rooms.

"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:itjri1phlu7stlrsj04r1ac9l6rc581gf3@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:18:55 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
>  wrote:
>
> >
> >"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> >news:9idri1lgat7puea9fpq1ekl5lggnqp8lnu@4ax.com...
> >> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 19:13:12 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
> >>  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Many have 10C in winter once the mains pipe is deep enough, which the
> >main
> >> >supply pipe usually is.  Only the service legs to the house rise up to
> >the
> >> >lower earth temps. If in constant use the legs should be exhausted of
> >cool
> >> >water.
> >> >
> >> >Mine is 18C coming in right now. I have a thermometer on the pipe.
> >>
> >> It should be.  The ground is still warm from the summer.
> >>
> >> In February/March it can easily be in the 5-8 degree range because the
> >> ground temperature will have fallen significantly through the winter.
> >> It works both ways.
> >
> >Depends how deep the mains is, the deeper the warmer.
>
> Not quite.


From about 2.5 to 3 metres down to approximately 100 metres, the ground
temperature is uniform at about 10C, in the UK - there are exceptions.

"Dave Plowman (News)"  in a haze of senile flatulence
wrote in message news:4dac84e2b9dave@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <432d9aa6$0$7941$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
>    Doctor Drivel  wrote:
> > > FFS, do the calculation for a pipe size to deliver 380 litres a
minute.
> > > You're into fire appliance territory.
>
> > You were boasting you could get 30 l/min from your hot tap.What calcs
> > did you do? The finger in the air electric caber calculations.  38 l/min
> > from a 25mm MDPE pipe is quite common.
>
> Now I know you're the same person.


I am Dr Drivel for certain. Now button up your cardigan.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

>  wrote in message
> news:1126881610.699275.41410@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Christian McArdle wrote:
> > > >> Please do refer to my other post. The time is not unspecified, it is
> > > >> clearly 10 minutes. It will fill a 380 litre bath in 10 minutes and a
> > > >> normal bath in a few minutes.
> > > >
> > > > That is not what they explicitly say in the spec.
> > > >
> > > > They give the rate per 10 minutes which is not the same and it cannot
> > > > be continuous.
> > >
> > > As far as I interpret the figures it is saying (at delta 35):
> > >
> > > 38lpm for 10 minutes from full store to depleted.
> > > 18lpm for 60 minutes from full store to depleted.
> > > 15lpm continuous.
> > >
> > > With a 37 minute recovery.
> > >
> > > In which case, I would conclude (and from the casing dimensions) that it
> has
> > > a very sizeable store. Assuming it is essentially a heatbank, I'd guess
> > > (10*(38-15)) * (35 / 70) = 115L (assuming heat store at 75C, incoming
> mains
> > > at 5C), plus a few litres for inefficiency, which is essentially a
> standard
> > > 450x900 cylinder. Indeed, it sounds so like it, it probably is it.
> > >
> > > The only spoiler is the quoted 37 minute recovery. The 23lpm (38-15)
> delta
> > > 35 water should only take 23*10/15 minutes to recover, which is just
> under
> > > 16 minutes, although it might just be to cover a slow ramping down of
> the
> > > recovery rate towards the end, which might suggest an indirect coil
> method
> > > of heating.
> > >
> > > If it is an unvented cylinder without TMV at 60C, then I make the size
> > > (10*(38-15)) * (35 / 55) = 146L plus a bit.
> > >
> > > Christian.
> >
> > Go to their web site http://www.acv-uk.com. I downloaded the
> > installation instructions. It is the only domestic combi from a large
> > commercial range.
> >
> > IMM said it was a hybrid of unvented cylinder and thermal store. From
> > the manual: 108.5 litres in the thermal store (it says heating circuit
> > capacity) and a total of 189 litres which means the unvented cylinder
> > side is 80 litres. The unvented cylinder is totally immersed within the
> > thermal store water. The heating is taken from the thermal store water.
> > The heat exchanger runs right through the centre of the two tanks.
> >
> > The DHW enters into a coil right at the bottom of the cylinder and then
> > fills the unvented cylinder at the top after leaving the coil. I think
> > this is to keep the bottom cool for the condensing part.
> >
> > The 37 minutes recovery is from cold to 80 centigrade. It will always
> > give 15 litres per minute minimum. In less than 17 minutes a full bath
> > could be drawn off (half the 38 litre for 10 minutes, which is 190
> > litres). If the bath is 125 litres then about 12 minutes or so, 10
> > minutes or les if replying on the 15 litres per minutes to finish off
> > at the end of the fill. This thing looks very impressive to me and
> > performs better than a separate cylinder, and cheaper as well. A 35 KW
> > Viessmann, or ACV boiler, a tank in tank and the controls to deliver
> > 380 litres in 10 minutes costs more than the Heatmaster and takes up
> > far more space and time to connect up. I am into delivering flows to at
> > least 1 bathroom and en-suite, more usually two full bathrooms, and
> > this baby delivers without any fuss and all in one box which is easy to
> > connect up. It can be unvented from the mains, or vented if the mains
> > can't cope, and can't be replaced, and then pumped from a tank. It is
> > on the list of choices.
>
> I haven't read all this thread but some good stuff here at last.  You have
> it right. The ACV Heatmaster is a combination of:
>
> 1. Unvented cylinder,
> 2. Thermal store
> 3. Infinitely continuous combi,
>
> There is no compromise. It uses a stainless steel tank-in-tank and a cool
> bottom section to promote efficiency.  The best on the market and it does
> exactly what it says on the box.  ACV are a top quality manufacturer, with
> offices all over the world, who invented the tank-in-tank, which has been
> available to the commercial market in the UK for many years. ACV have
> introduced a domestic range of tank-in-tanks and the ACV Heatmaster in the
> UK this year - the domestic Heatmaster 35kW been here a matter of months.
> Tank-in tanks are used extensively on the Continent, because of the rapid
> re-heat, resistance to corrosion and scale - the best you can get.
>
> The Heatmaster promotes condensing efficiency by having a near sealed,
> bottom section that has the DHW coil running through it to pre-heat the DHW,
> and keep the bottom section cool. The CH return also enters this bottom
> cooler section too. The DHW enters the bottom pre-heat coil and then into
> the upper inner stainless steel cylinder (the tank in the tank). This upper
> tank is heated from all sides, even the top, being totally immersed in the
> thermal store water - It hangs.  The stainless gas heat exchanger runs right
> though the two cylinders (tanks) and out the bottom.
>
> The figures 380 litres in 10 minutes have been mentioned a lot. To get that
> by using a separate tank-in-tank cylinder you would need a large cylinder
> and a quality 35kW boiler. The cost is more than the Heatmaster, as you have
> gleaned, and no infinitely continuous 15 litres/min combi performance that
> the Heatmaster offers. To get the 380 litres in 10 mins using a normal
> stainless steel indirect cylinder you would need a large 360 litres
> cylinder, which would be bigger than the Heatmaster itself and then the
> boiler to try and locate somewhere....and cost more. The Heatmaster, as long
> as the thermal store inhibitor is replaced every 4 years, should last 50
> years. It is simple, with the burner being a detachable standard part
> modulating pre-mix commercial unit.
>
> For a full two bathroom property the Heatmaster is brilliant and great value
> for money. It will do three baths as long as three are not run at the same
> time (a rare event in a domestic house).
>
> Don't make issue with the lunatics as they have nothing to offer for anyone
> to gain from, you have already figured it out. They go boozing with Phil
> Kyle. If I had to replace my system right now the Heatmaster would be right
> at the top of the list.  It is a one off purchase as it will probably
> outlive most people.


Thanks for the explanation. I'm sold on paper anyhow. I'll leave the
"gang" alone, as all I got was negative responses, and not one ounce of
objectivity.

I think this thread deserves a poem. :-)

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:10:38 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
 wrote:


>
>"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>news:0tiri1dvf1ghpsrhj2khh52g0eufhd8n6p@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:14:24 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
>>  wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>> >news:f9aqi1hsrbsngu2jpmgu08el4k320v8jss@4ax.com...
>> >> On 17 Sep 2005 16:26:18 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Andy Hall wrote:
>> >> >> On 17 Sep 2005 13:43:19 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >>
>>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which
>have
>> >> >> >the fastest recovery of any cylinder available..
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Says who?
>> >> >
>> >> >Just about everyone. Tank in tanks have the fastest recovery rate of
>> >> >any tanks.
>> >>
>> >> I'm fully aware of that, and it is fairly obvious as a result of the
>> >> heat exchange contact area.
>> >
>> >Then  why do you say "says who?" to him?
>>
>> Read the thread.
>> The question was explicitly related to the assertion about the ACV
>> Smart having the fastest recovery of any cylinder available, not about
>> the technology used.
>
>If it was tank-in-tank it would be wouldn't it? 


Only one product can, by definition, have the fastest recovery
available of any cylinder.  That was the question and the request for
justification.

As far as the technology is concerned, there are several ways for one
tank in tank to have better performance than another.  For example,
the surface area between tanks can be increased by using a fluted
rather than a purely cylindrical surface.



>> >> I was asking for information confirming that the ACV Smart range is
>> >> the fastest recovery of any cylinder available as you have asserted.
>> >
>> >Tank-in-tank are.  It just something anyone in the heating game knows.
>>
>> That's completely obvious as a result of the surface area for heat
>> transfer.    However, the question was about the specific product, not
>> the technology.
>
>If it was tank-in-tank it would be wouldn't it?


So you believe that they are all the same?





>
>> >> Are you buying kitchen furniture in funny places as
>> >> well or is your problem that you are renovating council flats?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >> an airing cupboard or a loft.
>> >> >
>> >> >Why have two when one can do it? There is no logic in that, only extra
>> >> >expense, time and valuable space used up.
>> >>
>> >> There's every logic in it.   By having separate components it is
>> >> possible to locate them easily in a whole variety of places
>> >> appropriate to the situation.  If you have a single big box, you are
>> >> going to have to provision specially for it.
>> >
>> >Like in the loft. The single biog box is the size of your cylinder.
>> >
>> >> How do you expect to get a 670mm box weighing 170kg into a loft space?
>> >
>> >You have no imagination.
>> >
>>
>> That's a good one.   I don't have a crane.    Hacksaws are not that
>> good for sawing through ceiling joists......
>
>They are.


I suppose that if you were to cut through one supporting the cold
storage tank, you could create one of your floods even faster than
abusing plastic plumbing.






>
>> >> >> A cylinder can
>> >> >> be fitted into an airing cupboard or loft.
>> >> >
>> >> >Why have two one one can do it cheaper.
>> >>
>> >> Because it's possible and can make more efficient use of space.
>> >
>> >It can't.
>>
>> I specifically used the terms "usable space" and "efficient use of
>> space"  as opposed to the simple volumetric measure that you have
>> used.
>
>An equivalent cylinder to deliver 380 litre in 10 mins would be 360-380,
>nearest 400 litres.  That is "big", bigger than the ACV


No, because you can store usable water at 65 degrees and mix it with
cold for use.

The 380 litres of the ACV is at 45 degrees.

The formula for resultant temperature of mixing water is 


 Vc[Tf - Tc] = Vh[Th - Tf] 


Where upper case V=volume T=temperature 
and lower case h=hot, c=cold and f=final 

 


e.g. for 380 litres of 45 degree water - using 10  degrees for the
cold as ACV have done 


[380-Vh] * 35 = Vh * 20 


13300 - (35*Vh) = Vh * 20 


13300 = 55 * Vh 


Vh = 240 litres


A 240 litre cylinder would be 1750mm high on a 450mm diameter
footprint.


The ACV is the same height on a 600 x 650mm footprint so is larger.





>
>> >> >> >> The critical information is missing, and the manufacturer
>> >> >> >> feels that the product is light in weight which it isn't.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I am not as easily impressed as you are.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >If you can "specifically" point out any misgivings by ACV I would
>> >> >> >appreciate it, as I maybe in the market for one.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I already have, several times,
>> >> >
>> >> >You have not at all. You have pointed out absolutely nothing. All you
>> >> >have done is go on about separate boilers in kitchens and cylinders.
>> >>
>> >> I've made the shortcomings completely clear.  The manufacturer avoids
>> >> these areas, understandably.
>> >
>> >You have made things up.
>>
>> I've simply highlighted the shortcomings
>
>You made things up.


There's nothing to make up other than to point out that the specs are
not chosen for operating conditions that happen in the winter.





>
>
>> >> >> >The Scottish
>> >> >> >Parliament has a number of them, so maybe you can out us all right.
>As
>> >> >> >yet you have not. All you have done is assume. I am still open.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> WHat the Scottish Parliament has to do with any of this I have no
>> >> >> idea.
>> >> >
>> >> >They have a number of them. If they are inadequate I'm sure they would
>> >> >like to know, as I would too.
>> >>
>> >> Considering that the project was massively over budget and late, I
>> >> wouldn't treat anything or anybody involved in its construction as
>> >> being in any way reliable.
>> >
>> >He didn't ask about the budget of the build.
>>
>> The point is that it is hardly a high quality customer reference.
>
>It is.


Massively late and massively overbudget.  Great reference.....



>
>> >> >The ACV for the price and its performance is matchless by other combis
>> >> >and separate cylinder and boiler. To get a tank in tank cylinder,
>> >> >controls and a 35 KW RR class boiler to deliver 380 litres in 10
>> >> >minutes would cost far more than the ACV Heatmaster. Ever thought some
>> >> >people might have looked into this?  And have done for the past 7
>> >> >years.
>> >>
>> >> Probably, and I suspect are more discerning than you regarding
>> >> practicality and performance.
>> >>
>> >> You are choosing best case numbers rather than reality.
>> >
>> >He chose the makers numbers which were highly comprehensive in complete
>> >table.
>>
>> ... and like you, picked the best ones.
>
>No. he pasted the whole table.


.... and then picked the best numbers.

The realistic ones are considerably less.


>
>> >This is not a fast sell B&Q product - it is high quality in design,
>> >performance and manufacture.
>>
>> I am not disputing the design or the quality.  I am simply pointing
>> out that one needs to look at *all* of the data to determine how well
>> it performs.
>
>Exactly, and are unable to interpret it.


The trouble for you is that I can very easily.  Sorry to burst your
bubble.




>
>> >Those who buy it will know their stuff and
>> >don't take too kindly to being misled. You don't mislead the commercial
>> >professionals, otherwise they don't come back. So, companies like ACV,
>> >Viessmann, etc are totally up front. They have the products that do what
>> >they say they do, they have no need to tell lies.
>>
>> I am not saying that they are telling lies, simply that you and TGB
>> are looking only at the best case conditions, ignoring what can easily
>> happen under operational situations; that being distinctly worse.
>
>Do you expect a solar winter to arrive any day now?


Not particularly, but having measured water temperatures in various
properties in February, I know that 5 degrees is entirely possible.



>
>> Some of the market-speak is something of a stretch.   The dimensions
>> do not fit well with typical UK locations
>
>What locations are those?  A kitchen?  What a mentality.
>
>> available for the box and it
>> is far from being light weight as suggested in the brochure.
>
>Light enough to be manhandled by two or three men. Easy.  The size is
>dictated by door widths to move into rooms.


170kg implies 85kg each for two people or 57kg each for three.

I am not sure that the HSE would consider these to be safe lifting
weights


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>
>Matt wrote:
>
>>
>> The future's bright the future's copper.
>
>I see why you are so agressive when stainless steel is mentioned.


Drivel,  I've never had a bad word to say about stainless EVER.

Get back to that counter, you can have a 30 minute break at 12:30
until then keep selling more copper tanks and make me even richer.

A hacksaw in the bin is worth two in the hands of a homicidal part
time plumbing counter assistant with a length of plastic pipe.


--

timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:



>Thanks for the explanation. I'm sold on paper anyhow. I'll leave the
>"gang" alone, as all I got was negative responses, and not one ounce of
>objectivity.
>
>I think this thread deserves a poem. :-)


Dribble you must stop replying to yourself like this, the men in white
coats will take you away to a land with no hacksaws, no leaflets to
read and a 40 second combi fed shower once a week flowing 0.3 litres a
minute at 21 deg C.


--

"Doctor Drivel"  wrote:


>From about 2.5 to 3 metres down to approximately 100 metres, the ground
>temperature is uniform at about 10C, in the UK - there are exceptions.


Totally irrelevant to anyone supplied with water stored in huge
surface reservoirs and totally irrelevant to anyone fed by a borehole
deeper than 100m. 

Your exceptions Dribble ARE the norm.

Back to work, you can have a break in 15 mins.


--

"Doctor Drivel"  wrote:



>I am Dr Drivel for certain. 


......and timegoesby when you use your other two neurons


--

In article ,
    wrote:

> Thanks for the explanation. I'm sold on paper anyhow. I'll leave the
> "gang" alone, as all I got was negative responses, and not one ounce of
> objectivity.


So all you want is confirmation of your views? Do this with John via
e-mail and save us all the Drivel.

Like John, you appear not to actually understand figures - and what's more
important to be able to interpret them. Ie, what they mean in practice
rather than a maker's advertising claims.

-- 
*Rehab is for quitters

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

> Is Mary a man?


She's more man than you'll ever be, sunshine.

Owain

timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
 

>
>Matt wrote:

>> The future's bright the future's copper.
>
>I don't expect any objective comment from you then.  ;-)


Nothing wrong with stainless either Drivel - I get free holidays from
them too ;-)   I always refuse the numerous free holidays from Combi
only companies to preserve my integrity - the other month one of them
even tried to tempt me with white water rafting in the Kalahari.




--

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:10:38 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
 wrote:


>
>"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>news:0tiri1dvf1ghpsrhj2khh52g0eufhd8n6p@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:14:24 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
>>  wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>> >news:f9aqi1hsrbsngu2jpmgu08el4k320v8jss@4ax.com...
>> >> On 17 Sep 2005 16:26:18 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Andy Hall wrote:
>> >> >> On 17 Sep 2005 13:43:19 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >>
>>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >I compared it to the ACV Smart range of domestic cylinders, which
>have
>> >> >> >the fastest recovery of any cylinder available..
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Says who?
>> >> >
>> >> >Just about everyone. Tank in tanks have the fastest recovery rate of
>> >> >any tanks.
>> >>
>> >> I'm fully aware of that, and it is fairly obvious as a result of the
>> >> heat exchange contact area.
>> >
>> >Then  why do you say "says who?" to him?
>>
>> Read the thread.
>> The question was explicitly related to the assertion about the ACV
>> Smart having the fastest recovery of any cylinder available, not about
>> the technology used.
>
>If it was tank-in-tank it would be wouldn't it? 


Only one product can, by definition, have the fastest recovery
available of any cylinder.  That was the question and the request for
justification.

As far as the technology is concerned, there are several ways for one
tank in tank to have better performance than another.  For example,
the surface area between tanks can be increased by using a fluted
rather than a purely cylindrical surface.



>> >> I was asking for information confirming that the ACV Smart range is
>> >> the fastest recovery of any cylinder available as you have asserted.
>> >
>> >Tank-in-tank are.  It just something anyone in the heating game knows.
>>
>> That's completely obvious as a result of the surface area for heat
>> transfer.    However, the question was about the specific product, not
>> the technology.
>
>If it was tank-in-tank it would be wouldn't it?


So you believe that they are all the same?





>
>> >> Are you buying kitchen furniture in funny places as
>> >> well or is your problem that you are renovating council flats?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >> an airing cupboard or a loft.
>> >> >
>> >> >Why have two when one can do it? There is no logic in that, only extra
>> >> >expense, time and valuable space used up.
>> >>
>> >> There's every logic in it.   By having separate components it is
>> >> possible to locate them easily in a whole variety of places
>> >> appropriate to the situation.  If you have a single big box, you are
>> >> going to have to provision specially for it.
>> >
>> >Like in the loft. The single biog box is the size of your cylinder.
>> >
>> >> How do you expect to get a 670mm box weighing 170kg into a loft space?
>> >
>> >You have no imagination.
>> >
>>
>> That's a good one.   I don't have a crane.    Hacksaws are not that
>> good for sawing through ceiling joists......
>
>They are.


I suppose that if you were to cut through one supporting the cold
storage tank, you could create one of your floods even faster than
abusing plastic plumbing.






>
>> >> >> A cylinder can
>> >> >> be fitted into an airing cupboard or loft.
>> >> >
>> >> >Why have two one one can do it cheaper.
>> >>
>> >> Because it's possible and can make more efficient use of space.
>> >
>> >It can't.
>>
>> I specifically used the terms "usable space" and "efficient use of
>> space"  as opposed to the simple volumetric measure that you have
>> used.
>
>An equivalent cylinder to deliver 380 litre in 10 mins would be 360-380,
>nearest 400 litres.  That is "big", bigger than the ACV


No, because you can store usable water at 65 degrees and mix it with
cold for use.

The 380 litres of the ACV is at 45 degrees.

The formula for resultant temperature of mixing water is 


 Vc[Tf - Tc] = Vh[Th - Tf] 


Where upper case V=volume T=temperature 
and lower case h=hot, c=cold and f=final 

 


e.g. for 380 litres of 45 degree water - using 10  degrees for the
cold as ACV have done 


[380-Vh] * 35 = Vh * 20 


13300 - (35*Vh) = Vh * 20 


13300 = 55 * Vh 


Vh = 240 litres


A 240 litre cylinder would be 1750mm high on a 450mm diameter
footprint.


The ACV is the same height on a 600 x 650mm footprint so is larger.





>
>> >> >> >> The critical information is missing, and the manufacturer
>> >> >> >> feels that the product is light in weight which it isn't.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I am not as easily impressed as you are.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >If you can "specifically" point out any misgivings by ACV I would
>> >> >> >appreciate it, as I maybe in the market for one.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I already have, several times,
>> >> >
>> >> >You have not at all. You have pointed out absolutely nothing. All you
>> >> >have done is go on about separate boilers in kitchens and cylinders.
>> >>
>> >> I've made the shortcomings completely clear.  The manufacturer avoids
>> >> these areas, understandably.
>> >
>> >You have made things up.
>>
>> I've simply highlighted the shortcomings
>
>You made things up.


There's nothing to make up other than to point out that the specs are
not chosen for operating conditions that happen in the winter.





>
>
>> >> >> >The Scottish
>> >> >> >Parliament has a number of them, so maybe you can out us all right.
>As
>> >> >> >yet you have not. All you have done is assume. I am still open.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> WHat the Scottish Parliament has to do with any of this I have no
>> >> >> idea.
>> >> >
>> >> >They have a number of them. If they are inadequate I'm sure they would
>> >> >like to know, as I would too.
>> >>
>> >> Considering that the project was massively over budget and late, I
>> >> wouldn't treat anything or anybody involved in its construction as
>> >> being in any way reliable.
>> >
>> >He didn't ask about the budget of the build.
>>
>> The point is that it is hardly a high quality customer reference.
>
>It is.


Massively late and massively overbudget.  Great reference.....



>
>> >> >The ACV for the price and its performance is matchless by other combis
>> >> >and separate cylinder and boiler. To get a tank in tank cylinder,
>> >> >controls and a 35 KW RR class boiler to deliver 380 litres in 10
>> >> >minutes would cost far more than the ACV Heatmaster. Ever thought some
>> >> >people might have looked into this?  And have done for the past 7
>> >> >years.
>> >>
>> >> Probably, and I suspect are more discerning than you regarding
>> >> practicality and performance.
>> >>
>> >> You are choosing best case numbers rather than reality.
>> >
>> >He chose the makers numbers which were highly comprehensive in complete
>> >table.
>>
>> ... and like you, picked the best ones.
>
>No. he pasted the whole table.


.... and then picked the best numbers.

The realistic ones are considerably less.


>
>> >This is not a fast sell B&Q product - it is high quality in design,
>> >performance and manufacture.
>>
>> I am not disputing the design or the quality.  I am simply pointing
>> out that one needs to look at *all* of the data to determine how well
>> it performs.
>
>Exactly, and are unable to interpret it.


The trouble for you is that I can very easily.  Sorry to burst your
bubble.




>
>> >Those who buy it will know their stuff and
>> >don't take too kindly to being misled. You don't mislead the commercial
>> >professionals, otherwise they don't come back. So, companies like ACV,
>> >Viessmann, etc are totally up front. They have the products that do what
>> >they say they do, they have no need to tell lies.
>>
>> I am not saying that they are telling lies, simply that you and TGB
>> are looking only at the best case conditions, ignoring what can easily
>> happen under operational situations; that being distinctly worse.
>
>Do you expect a solar winter to arrive any day now?


Not particularly, but having measured water temperatures in various
properties in February, I know that 5 degrees is entirely possible.



>
>> Some of the market-speak is something of a stretch.   The dimensions
>> do not fit well with typical UK locations
>
>What locations are those?  A kitchen?  What a mentality.
>
>> available for the box and it
>> is far from being light weight as suggested in the brochure.
>
>Light enough to be manhandled by two or three men. Easy.  The size is
>dictated by door widths to move into rooms.


170kg implies 85kg each for two people or 57kg each for three.

I am not sure that the HSE would consider these to be safe lifting
weights


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Matt"  wrote in message
news:agvti1tdb54evdsfap805rq0rafkfpdsnr@4ax.com...

> timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> >Matt wrote:
>
> >> The future's bright the future's copper.
> >
> >I don't expect any objective comment from you then.  ;-)
>
> Nothing wrong with stainless either


Lunatic.  Stainless and combis are replacing copper. Hopefully you will be
out of a job soon.

"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:m4usi19sv49r37a5dnsb0vv2f5ur3hiv12@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:10:38 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"

> 170kg implies 85kg each for two people or 57kg each for three.
>
> I am not sure that the HSE would consider these to be safe lifting
> weights


So you are guessing as usual.

"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:itjri1phlu7stlrsj04r1ac9l6rc581gf3@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:18:55 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
>  wrote:
>
> >
> >"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> >news:9idri1lgat7puea9fpq1ekl5lggnqp8lnu@4ax.com...
> >> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 19:13:12 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
> >>  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Many have 10C in winter once the mains pipe is deep enough, which the
> >main
> >> >supply pipe usually is.  Only the service legs to the house rise up to
> >the
> >> >lower earth temps. If in constant use the legs should be exhausted of
> >cool
> >> >water.
> >> >
> >> >Mine is 18C coming in right now. I have a thermometer on the pipe.
> >>
> >> It should be.  The ground is still warm from the summer.
> >>
> >> In February/March it can easily be in the 5-8 degree range because the
> >> ground temperature will have fallen significantly through the winter.
> >> It works both ways.
> >
> >Depends how deep the mains is, the deeper the warmer.
>
> Not quite.   The deeper the less the rate of temperature change. Here
> we are talking about seasonal effects.


You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the temp is
always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same.  You could get a
large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as deep as
possible in the garden.  Constant mains temp all the time.

"Doctor Drivel"  wrote:


>
>"Matt"  wrote in message
>news:agvti1tdb54evdsfap805rq0rafkfpdsnr@4ax.com...
>> timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Matt wrote:
>>
>> >> The future's bright the future's copper.
>> >
>> >I don't expect any objective comment from you then.  ;-)
>>
>> Nothing wrong with stainless either
>
>Lunatic.  Stainless and combis are replacing copper. Hopefully you will be
>out of a job soon.


Shows how out of touch you are Dribble.  All those leaflets and you
fail to see the big picture.

Combi's went out with the ark. The Japanese can't get enough of our
copper tanks and the Rinnai's are being carted off for landfill in
their thousands.  Storage IS the future, sad for you but true.


--

"Doctor Drivel"  wrote:


>You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the temp is
>always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same.  You could get a
>large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as deep as
>possible in the garden.  Constant mains temp all the time.


No it isn't. Do you know the consequences of "bury it as deep as
possible in the garden" are ?

Do you know at what temperature the MDPE will fail?

Thought not. Back to the drawing board Dribble


--

> for you, which are very impressive:
> ----------
> DOMESTIC HOT WATER FEATURES
> HeatMaster
> Operating conditions at 80C 35 TC


It sounds fine, much nicer than an instantaneous combi. However it is just a
storage system boxed into one unit. There's nothing particularly novel about
it. Plenty of types of this system are available, whether based on heat
banks or unvented cylinders.


> There is space savings. No boiler in the kitchen, which are a pain and
> restricts kitchen design, which is great bonus for me.


I don't see how 600x670x1700 is particularly space saving. Nor does it have
a monopoly on loft installation.

My system (WB Greenstar HE28 + 180L DPS Pandora) as installed has almost
identical performance to the published figures and was probably a lot easier
to get into the loft, too. It also has electric backup (which I used for
several months, as the boiler was not ready for installation). Does the ACV
have this? It may do, I don't know.

Christian.

In article <43313663$0$97905$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
   Doctor Drivel  wrote:

> You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the temp
> is always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same.  You could
> get a large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as
> deep as possible in the garden.  Constant mains temp all the time.


Wouldn't you need two - one for each combi?

-- 
*How much deeper would the oceans be without sponges? *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Doctor Drivel wrote:


> "Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> news:m4usi19sv49r37a5dnsb0vv2f5ur3hiv12@4ax.com...
> 
>>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:10:38 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
> 
> 
>>170kg implies 85kg each for two people or 57kg each for three.
>>
>>I am not sure that the HSE would consider these to be safe lifting
>>weights
> 
> 
> So you are guessing as usual.


Apparently not:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg143.pdf

Even 45kg would be a considered a "two man lift" - so 170kg will need 
mechanical lifting if it all comes in one lump.


-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

On 16 Sep 2005 03:29:53 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>
>Andy Hall wrote:
>> On 15 Sep 2005 16:00:03 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Peter wrote:
>> >> >...you'd be looking at around 50kW
>> >> >more or less depending on the inlet water temp.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks Ed. That's quite some power for sure. I was concerned about
>> >> that. So I would be needing a very big gas combi or a three-phase
>> >> supply to drive some fancy, semi-industrial, Stiebel-Eltron kind of
>> >> electric device.
>> >
>> >Peter,
>> >
>> >There are stored water combis. They have everything in one box with
>> >some stored water inside. You don't get too concerned about the
>> >innards.
>>
>> You should be.
>
>I am only interested in what the combi delivers in flowrates. How it
>works inside is only of passive interest.


I suppose that that would be true in the small time property
speculation market.




>
>> > The ACV Heatmaster will deliver 38 litres per minute and is
>> >only 35 KW.
>>
>> It will do that for an unspecified short time.  Refer to other post.
>
>Please do refer to my other post. The time is not unspecified, it is
>clearly 10 minutes. It will fill a 380 litre bath in 10 minutes and a
>normal bath in a few minutes.


That is not what they explicitly say in the spec.

They give the rate per 10 minutes which is not the same and it cannot
be continuous.





>
>> >The domestic meter will deliver around 60 KW. 35KW is just
>> >over half of the meter capacity, so just ticking over. The Powermax,
>> >Gledhill and Viessmann both have high flowrates as well.
>>
>> For a short period.  It is not possible to get a quart from a pint
>> pot.
>
>The Powermax, Gledhill and Viessmann are all two bathroom models, and
>then drop down to  basic low flow continuously.  The high flows are
>enough to fill baths and have two simultaneous showers.


There is no meaning in the expression "two bathroom model".   Without
explicit specs there is nothing to compare.




>
>> >
>> >The Japanese Rinnai multi points have high flowrates with the downside
>> >of no CH. I am seriously in the market for one of these.
>>
>> I expect that the marketing guy is rubbing his hands with glee.
>
>He should be as they are the biggest seller in the world. I'm off to
>Travis Perkins now.
> 


Does dIMM work there?


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


> The Japanese Rinnai multi points have high flowrates with the downside
> of no CH. I am seriously in the market for one of these.


What do you plan to use for heating though?

You have about 60kW to play with from the supply. Space heating boilers 
are going to be at least 15kW. If you have other gas appliances such as 
a cooker you potentially lose another 5 to 10kW there. At best that 
seems to leave you 40kW to play with for the Riannai.

That does not sound any better than one of the bigger combi's, but 
requires two boxes to do it.


-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:

> :::Jerry:::: wrote:
> 
>> wrote in message
>>news:1126824517.732246.279400@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>the combined flow. Single taps lower the price of a place.
>>>
>>
>>Total crap, if there is either a separate shower enclosure or mixer
>>were is the need for mixer taps?
> 
> 
> I wish all my buyers were as easy to please as you, as I would save a
> fortune and put in cheap contractor materials.
> 

There is no shortage of cheap contractor mixer taps available.

On 16 Sep 2005 03:12:45 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>
>Andy Hall wrote:
>> On 15 Sep 2005 15:48:37 -0700, timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:>
>>
>> >The ACV Heatmaster 35 KW combi supplies 38 litres per minute of hot
>> >water at 60 degree C. I have all the details.
>>
>> Clearly you haven't read them properly, or have just looked at the
>> glossy brochure.   Have you been taking dIMM pills.?
>>
>> That is the short term peak value.
>>
>> The HM35TC is claimed to be able to deliver 224 litres per 10 minutes
>> at 60 degrees.
>
>60 degrees? Do you want to have third degree burns? Do you know how hot
>that is?
>


You quoted the 60 degree figure in the first place.



>> However, the constant flow rate is 9.6 litres per minute at the same
>> temperature rise of 50 degrees.   At the more commonly quoted
>> temperature rise of 35 degrees, the constant flow rate is 15 litres
>> per minute which is as predicted by the appliance rating.
>
>I downloaded the installation manual. Here are the figures pasted in
>for you, which are very impressive:


They are not impressive at all.   This is a game of specmanship only
and they are not defying physics.



>----------
>DOMESTIC HOT WATER FEATURES
>HeatMaster
>Operating conditions at 80C 35 TC
>
>Peak flow at 40C [?T = 30C] L/10 419
>Peak flow at 40C [?T = 30C] L/60 1312
>Constant flow at 40C [?T = 30C] L/h 1057
>Peak flow at 45C [?T = 35C] L/10 381
>Peak flow at 45C [?T = 35C] L/60 1080
>Constant flow at 45C [?T = 35C] L/h 898
>Peak flow at 60C [?T = 50C] L/10 224
>Peak flow at 60C [?T = 50C] L/60 692
>Constant flow at 60C [?T = 50C] L/h 578
>
>Pre-heat time minutes 37
>---------
>
>It will deliver 381 litres for 10 minutes at a sensible 45C. That is 38
>litres per minute, then drops down to 15 litres per minute continuously
>never running out of hot water. 


It is not clear that this is what it means at all.  The figure is
quoted as 381 litres per 10 minutes.    Clearly it can't deliver that
for every period of 10 minutes on an ongoing basis, so is a
multiplication exercise.

Once the store is exhausted, and it doesn't say how large the store
is, is takes a further 37 minutes to recover.

It would also assume that the mains supply is able to deliver 38lpm
and that is a huge assumption.





>Many people on this thread are happy
>with less than 15 litres per minutes from their combis. 


For "many" I think that the accurate description is "a few". Certainly
it's less than 50%.



>Two
>simultaneous baths can be filled. The mains pipe temperature is around
>20C at the moment, the ACV would right now deliver 42 litres per minute
>for 10 minutes, then down to near 18 litres per minute.


Irrelevant.  The important point of any design is the performance
under worst case conditions.



> That will fill
>a large jacuzzi no problem at all. The figures are very impressive and
>I have no reason to disbelieve them as ACV are largely in the
>commercial market. 


I don't disbelieve the figures, once one works out what they actually
mean and not taking the best case conditions as has been done in your
dIMMesque approach.





>The new Scottish Parliament building has banks of
>Heatmasters. See the ACV web site.


This is a recommendation?






>
>> They conveniently omit what the size of hot water storage actually is,
>> so that one cannot determine the real performance of the system.
>>
>> The sales brochure describes the unit as "light weight".  Hmmm... the
>> spec. says 170kg empty.
>>
>> It's also described as "small".  The actual size is 670 x 600 x 1700
>> which is hardly that.   It won't even fit into a standard washing
>> machine footprint.  This means that it will either be taking up
>> valuable space in a kitchen (which would have to configured in a
>> non-standard way, or to be placed in a cupboard.   In effect, the size
>> is the same as a storage tank and there is virtually no usable space
>> saving compared with a conventional cylinder and separate small
>> boiler.
>
>There is space savings. 


In terms of *usable* space there is virtually nothing.



>No boiler in the kitchen, which are a pain and
>restricts kitchen design, which is great bonus for me. 


It's substantially less restricting to accomodate a wall mounted
system boiler in the kitchen or any one of a number of other places
that to try to fit in a non-standard sized hunk of metal in the
kitchen.    





>The ACV can go
>in then loft like the Powermaxes. 


170kg then the water in addition with unpsecified weight?

What about the crane and getting it through the hatch?   Are you sure
that the access is wide enough between joists that are on 600mm
centres to fit a 600mm wide appliance through?

Perhaps it would be an idea to take off the roof and hire a crane to
save the tiny amount of space you had in mind.



>A bit of a lift but possible. I asked
>ACV about loft mounting they said no problems as the unit is well
>insulated.


Conveniently ignoring the weight and access factors.   Obviously the
thing is well insulated.



>
>> This is not to say that the design isn't reasonable in principle, but
>> there is considerable specmanship and hype in the way it's described.
>
>I don't quite understand how it works in detail. ACV have configured a
>lower chamber to force cool water for the condensing operation. Perhaps
>IMM/Evil can explain. 


That could be entertaining.



>It is all stainless steel which says a lot. 


It says that the materials used are of good quality as long as the
correct grade has been used.


I

>would not say there is hype in the table I pasted above. It is very
>clear. 


There is a lot of inconvenient information missing.   How heavy is it
with water and how large is the store?





>Having over the past 7 years looked at combis that save space
>and deliver high flows, the ACV is the most impressive I have seen by
>far. 


That doesn't say much for the rest.




>It is also one of the most efficient boioers around, whoch is a
>good plus point on selling. 


It is 1% more efficient on the SEDBUK scale than other products and
the BRE point out that there is a 5% uncertainty of measurement
anyway.




>A rennovated house with a high efficient
>quality boiler makes it easier to sell. Im not sure if it is up to
>high continuous flows that the Rinnai delivers for a couple of
>simultaneous Tower Showers. The ACV is on the shortlist for the next
>job, as is a Rinnai.


Read the numbers carefully.   There is a lot of missing data.



-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

> I have never had the experince as I always fit good quality mixers,
> preferably the one lever type, the sort the buyers expect, the sort
> that stand out, the sort that say quality, the sort that say I like
> this bathroom, the sort that add value and make the place sell for the
> asking price very quickly.


Yes, they do look great in modern bathrooms or hotels.

They do, however, look entirely out of place in a painted wood panelled roll
top (aka "Flake") bathroom, where decent reproduction pillar taps
(preferably discretely implemented with ceramic cartridges) are much more
appropriate.

I suspect that the former type of bathroom is more common, though. I
entirely agree that fitting the free taps (and wastes) that come with the
suite is a complete waste of time. They're usually of appalling quality and
just there (presumably at the cost of a few pence each) to claim a complete
bathroom set.

Christian.

wrote in message
news:1126865712.150964.187050@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> :::Jerry:::: wrote:
> >  wrote in message
> > news:1126824517.732246.279400@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > <snip>
> > > the combined flow. Single taps lower the price of a place.
> > >
> >
> > Total crap, if there is either a separate shower enclosure or
mixer
> > were is the need for mixer taps?
>
> I wish all my buyers were as easy to please as you, as I would save
a
> fortune and put in cheap contractor materials.
>


Now you are changing your goal posts, first you talked of types of
tap, now you seem to be talking about the 'cosmetic design' of taps -
sound like you have been taking lessons in being a simpleton from
IMM....

>>>> Total crap, if there is either a separate shower enclosure or mixer
>>>> were is the need for mixer taps?
>>>
>>> I wish all my buyers were as easy to please as you, as I would save a
>>> fortune and put in cheap contractor materials.
>>
>> There is no shortage of cheap contractor mixer taps available.
>
> They look cheap too. Having a top quality bath and tiles and then
> fitting cheap taps is like making a Rolls Royce and fitting cheap
> plastic seats.


Indeed. However, pillar taps are not necessarily cheap. Just because the
cheapest taps are some horrible 3.99 plastic compression washer
monstrosities, doesn't mean that all separate taps are like this.

I actually prefer having separate taps in a basin. I believe it looks more
appropriate in the period properties I prefer to frequent. However, the
ideal installation costs more than a single monobloc mixer of similar
quality, as a basin really benefits from a genuine cold tap (mains drinking
water) and a TMV mixed 40C hot tap for shaving/hand washing/etc.

Christian.

> IMM said it was a hybrid of unvented cylinder and thermal store. From
> the manual: 108.5 litres in the thermal store (it says heating circuit
> capacity) and a total of 189 litres which means the unvented cylinder
> side is 80 litres. The unvented cylinder is totally immersed within the
> thermal store water. The heating is taken from the thermal store water.
> The heat exchanger runs right through the centre of the two tanks.


Yes. I withdraw my comment about not being innovative. It seems to integrate
the boiler heat exchanger very closely into proceedings, in that the
gas<>primary water exchange occurs within the cylinder itself. It even
appears to have a downward burner.


> The 37 minutes recovery is from cold to 80 centigrade.


They appear to have undersold themselves, in that the recovery from a store
depleted condition will be less onerous than from a store cold situation.


> It will always give 15 litres per minute minimum.


I'm not sure how they say this, though. From stone cold, it will need to
heat up somewhat before it can service the supply, unless I've missed
something.

The only surprise is the fairly average (for condensing) SEDBUK of only
90.9%. I'd have thought it would be much higher, given that they have taken
such care to make the gas heat exchanger final temperature as low as they
could under all conditions possible. Indeed, it is down to 5C in winter when
actually drawing DHW (especially when drawing under 15lpm).

Christian.

>> Please do refer to my other post. The time is not unspecified, it is
>> clearly 10 minutes. It will fill a 380 litre bath in 10 minutes and a
>> normal bath in a few minutes.
>
> That is not what they explicitly say in the spec.
>
> They give the rate per 10 minutes which is not the same and it cannot
> be continuous.


As far as I interpret the figures it is saying (at delta 35):

38lpm for 10 minutes from full store to depleted.
18lpm for 60 minutes from full store to depleted.
15lpm continuous.

With a 37 minute recovery.

In which case, I would conclude (and from the casing dimensions) that it has
a very sizeable store. Assuming it is essentially a heatbank, I'd guess
(10*(38-15)) * (35 / 70) = 115L (assuming heat store at 75C, incoming mains
at 5C), plus a few litres for inefficiency, which is essentially a standard
450x900 cylinder. Indeed, it sounds so like it, it probably is it.

The only spoiler is the quoted 37 minute recovery. The 23lpm (38-15) delta
35 water should only take 23*10/15 minutes to recover, which is just under
16 minutes, although it might just be to cover a slow ramping down of the
recovery rate towards the end, which might suggest an indirect coil method
of heating.

If it is an unvented cylinder without TMV at 60C, then I make the size
(10*(38-15)) * (35 / 55) = 146L plus a bit.

Christian.

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:21:04 +0100, John Rumm  
 wrote:


> Even 45kg would be a considered a "two man lift" - so 170kg will need  
> mechanical lifting if it all comes in one lump.


Unless I have missed something, the sheds have gravitated (pun  
intentional) to sack weights of 25 kg for most products. Strangely, my  
local council have started to replace all the 300mm slab /paviors  
pavements with the old sizes which are far more likely to lead to  
skeleto-muscular problems in the workers. It does strike me as an  
extravagant way to get rid of the chewing gum. I wonder how big the bung  
was.

John Schmitt

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

John Rumm  wrote:


>Doctor Drivel wrote:
>
>> "Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>> news:m4usi19sv49r37a5dnsb0vv2f5ur3hiv12@4ax.com...
>> 
>>>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:10:38 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
>> 
>> 
>>>170kg implies 85kg each for two people or 57kg each for three.
>>>
>>>I am not sure that the HSE would consider these to be safe lifting
>>>weights
>> 
>> 
>> So you are guessing as usual.
>
>Apparently not:
>
>http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg143.pdf 
>
>Even 45kg would be a considered a "two man lift" - so 170kg will need 
>mechanical lifting if it all comes in one lump.


John you Spoilsport. You're just letting facts spoil Dribble's
argument ;-)

On Planet Zog the gravitational constant is flexible depending on the
level of the flood water and the mains gas pressure, so the HSE have
come to a special arrangement to enable 2 man 170kg lifts to be fully
legal. 



--

Matt wrote:

> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
>
> >
> >"Matt"  wrote in message
> >news:agvti1tdb54evdsfap805rq0rafkfpdsnr@4ax.com...
> >> timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Matt wrote:
> >>
> >> >> The future's bright the future's copper.
> >> >
> >> >I don't expect any objective comment from you then.  ;-)
> >>
> >> Nothing wrong with stainless either
> >
> >Lunatic.  Stainless and combis are replacing copper. Hopefully you will be
> >out of a job soon.
>
> Shows how out of touch you are Dribble.  All those leaflets and you
> fail to see the big picture.
>
> Combi's went out with the ark. The Japanese can't get enough of our
> copper tanks and the Rinnai's are being carted off for landfill in
> their thousands.  Storage IS the future, sad for you but true.


Do you have any hard facts? From my viewpoint large storage is on the
way out. For me it's been out for the past 6 years. By trial and error
and having tried to fit water systems in houses over the past 7 years,
believe me, small quick recovery storage and instant water heating all
in one case is certainly the future. Rinnais are selling very well, I
have just ordered one, and Andrews and others rebadge them.


> 
> --

Matt wrote:


>>Apparently not:
>>
>>http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg143.pdf 
>>
>>Even 45kg would be a considered a "two man lift" - so 170kg will need 
>>mechanical lifting if it all comes in one lump.
> 
> 
> John you Spoilsport. You're just letting facts spoil Dribble's
> argument ;-)


No, you should know that fact never get in the way of a good drivel 
dribble...


> On Planet Zog the gravitational constant is flexible depending on the
> level of the flood water and the mains gas pressure, so the HSE have
> come to a special arrangement to enable 2 man 170kg lifts to be fully
> legal. 


And due to the variable laws of thermodynamics, can be hoisted into a 
loft by the expedient of adding a small hot air balloon on a string no 
doubt!


-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

In article ,
    wrote:

> Do you have any hard facts? From my viewpoint large storage is on the
> way out. For me it's been out for the past 6 years. By trial and error
> and having tried to fit water systems in houses over the past 7 years,
> believe me, small quick recovery storage and instant water heating all
> in one case is certainly the future. Rinnais are selling very well, I
> have just ordered one, and Andrews and others rebadge them.


But then you do this to sell houses - not to live in them.

Tell me, what do you have at home? Do you ever take baths?

-- 
*If at first you don't succeed, avoid skydiving.*

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:30:07 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
 wrote:


>

>> >Depends how deep the mains is, the deeper the warmer.
>>
>> Not quite.   The deeper the less the rate of temperature change. Here
>> we are talking about seasonal effects.
>
>You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the temp is
>always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same.


That depth would be very considerable and certainly more than that
used in the UK for mains.



>  You could get a
>large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as deep as
>possible in the garden.  Constant mains temp all the time.



ROTFL.    Do you have any idea of how much storage and hence length
would be needed to achieve that and the flow resistance involved?

32mm MDPE pipe has an inside diameter of 26mm. 

To achieve the 300 litres needed to make a difference for your box of
tricks, would involve 300,000 cc. volume

300000/(pi x 2.6^2) = 14126cm of pipe.

Over 140m......


You are joking of course......

Much better to get a proper storage system than to play around with
this nonsense.



-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article ,
>     wrote:
> > Do you have any hard facts? From my viewpoint large storage is on the
> > way out. For me it's been out for the past 6 years. By trial and error
> > and having tried to fit water systems in houses over the past 7 years,
> > believe me, small quick recovery storage and instant water heating all
> > in one case is certainly the future. Rinnais are selling very well, I
> > have just ordered one, and Andrews and others rebadge them.
>
> But then you do this to sell houses - not to live in them.


I have to deliver. It has to work and work well. I don't install B&Q
combis and hope they don't notice.


> Tell me, what do you have at home? Do you ever take baths?


I have a Gledhill Gulfsteam which is in the loft with the flue through
the roof. It fills baths very well indeed on a 25mm blue water mains
pipe.



> --
> *If at first you don't succeed, avoid skydiving.*
>
>     Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
>                   To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
    wrote:

> I have a Gledhill Gulfsteam which is in the loft with the flue through
> the roof. It fills baths very well indeed on a 25mm blue water mains
> pipe.


You like cold baths?

-- 
*Husbands should come with instructions

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)"  through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message news:4dadd74d73dave@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <43313663$0$97905$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
>    Doctor Drivel  wrote:

> > You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the temp
> > is always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same.  You could
> > get a large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as
> > deep as possible in the garden.  Constant mains temp all the time.
>
> Wouldn't you need two - one for each combi?


Good idea. Two blue pipes from the water meter and two into the house doing
separate functions. Cheap to do.  Less influence from one line to the other.
If one is down the other is capped off at the meter and all runs on the one
pipe, and no digging. Buildability.

Richard, you came up with a good idea but never knew it.  Sad but true.

"Dave Plowman (News)"  through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message news:4dae1c1cdbdave@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article ,
>     wrote:
> > I have a Gledhill Gulfsteam which is in the loft with the flue through
> > the roof. It fills baths very well indeed on a 25mm blue water mains
> > pipe.


Richard Cranium here attempts wit......


> You like cold baths?


Yes, that was it folks.  More next time.

"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> spluttering through a tastless mussie wrote
in message news:8am3j11i6kb15h2obstlmt5c125cps9qn4@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:30:07 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
>  wrote:
>
> >> >Depends how deep the mains is, the deeper the warmer.
> >>
> >> Not quite.   The deeper the less the rate of temperature change. Here
> >> we are talking about seasonal effects.
> >
> > You are thick at times. I said that once
> > below a certain depth the temp is
> > always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same.
>
> That depth would be very considerable


It is not, about 6 to 8 foot.  A JCB can go down 21 foot.


> and certainly more than that
> used in the UK for mains.


No. The prime main in the street  is deeper than that.


> >  You could get a
> >large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as deep
as
> >possible in the garden.  Constant mains temp all the time.
>
> ROTFL.    Do you have any idea of how much storage and hence length
> would be needed to achieve that and the flow resistance involved?


100 metre rolls are available.


> 32mm MDPE pipe has an inside diameter of 26mm.

yep.

> To achieve the 300 litres


300 litres?


> needed to make a difference for your box of
> tricks, would involve 300,000 cc. volume


Nope. The water from the prime deep main pipe is about 10C all the time.
This coil ensures it stays at 10C.  It will also instantly heat water being
in such a long coil surrounded by warm earth.


> You are joking of course......


Nope.  Many coils have been installed around gardens and used to pre-heat
and coil a house. Constant 10C in summer means you run it through an in-line
copper duct battery. Cooling. In winter the cold air coming in is tempered
by a 10C pre-heat battery. Quite common in the USA and Germany.

<snip misguided misinformation>

> The ACV is the best flowrate from a system in a box I yet to see.


The best flowrate I've seen is the Keston Duet. However, it doesn't have an
external casing to my knowledge, so isn't as pretty.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle"  wrote in message
news:43326c18$0$12181$ed9e5944@reading.news.pipex.net...

> > The ACV is the best flowrate from a system in a box I yet to see.
>
> The best flowrate I've seen is the Keston Duet. However, it doesn't have
an
> external casing to my knowledge, so isn't as pretty.
>
> Christian.


That is two separate items slapped into one frame. I believe you have to
assemble it.  Not the same as in a ready made box, but getting there. They
could have at least put a case around it and made it into a full one box
solution; bad marketing. The Duet can't deliver 380 litres in 10 minutes. It
has 200 litres maximum.

We all get carried away with litres/min, when other times are more relevant
to the application, like 10 mins. You could get 42 litres/min for 5 mins,
but that will not fill two baths simultaneously. ACV is a class above
Keston, and the tank-in-tank pisses all over others for re-heat. The ACV has
an 80 litres unvented cylinder store, which can up to 10 bar, the Duet can't
go that high. The Keston is reduced to about 3 bar and the less the pressure
the less the throughput.  The ACV has no restriction, so a greater
throughput.  The first 80 to 100 litres from the ACV will be equiv to the
Duet.  Keston is equiv. to W-Bosch.  I believe the cylinder in the Duet is
made by Ariston.

"Christian McArdle"  wrote in message
news:43326c18$0$12181$ed9e5944@reading.news.pipex.net...

> > The ACV is the best flowrate from a system in a box I yet to see.
>
> The best flowrate I've seen is the Keston Duet. However, it doesn't have
an
> external casing to my knowledge, so isn't as pretty.
>
> Christian.


That is two separate items slapped into one frame. I believe you have to
assemble it.  Not the same as in a ready made box, but getting there. They
could have at least put a case around it and made it into a full one box
solution; bad marketing. The Duet can't deliver 380 litres in 10 minutes. It
has 200 litres maximum.

We all get carried away with litres/min, when other times are more relevant
to the application, like 10 mins. You could get 42 litres/min for 5 mins,
but that will not fill two baths simultaneously. ACV is a class above
Keston, and the tank-in-tank pisses all over others for re-heat. The ACV has
an 80 litres unvented cylinder store, which can up to 10 bar, the Duet can't
go that high. The Keston is reduced to about 3 bar and the less the pressure
the less the throughput.  The ACV has no restriction, so a greater
throughput.  The first 80 to 100 litres from the ACV will be equiv to the
Duet.  Keston is equiv. to W-Bosch.  I believe the cylinder in the Duet is
made by Ariston.

Even on price the Duet is behind,  2,380.55 inc VAT for the 200 litre
model.  Not far off the ACV Heatmaster which is superior all around in
performance, quality, and certainly looks, and no zone valves and by-passes
about as the CH is taken off the integral thermal store.  The ACV is not a
compromise as the Duet is.

"John Rumm"  wrote in message
news:433197c5$0$49767$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...


> And due to the variable laws of thermodynamics, can be hoisted into a
> loft by the expedient of adding a small hot air balloon on a string no
> doubt!


Good answer.  A look on Ebay will tell you chain winch is very cheap. Bolt
to the rafers and pull up. Boy some people here are dumb.

"Matt"  the copper industry spammer wrote in
message news:ilh2j1lqs1p1b9fho349t8gemu7f61qfgs@4ax.com...

> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
>
> >You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the temp
is
> >always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same.  You could get a
> >large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as deep
as
> >possible in the garden.  Constant mains temp all the time.
>
> No it isn't. Do you know the consequences of "bury it as deep as
> possible in the garden" are ?
>
> Do you know at what temperature the MDPE will fail?


You are real thick at times.  He wants a copper coil in there.  Such a
spamming saddo.

> We all get carried away with litres/min, when other times are more
relevant
> to the application, like 10 mins. You could get 42 litres/min for 5 mins,
> but that will not fill two baths simultaneously.


It is clear that the Duet and the ACV actually provide performance similar
to separate box storage solutions. I'm sure I would have considered the ACV
when I installed my system (WB/DPS Pandora), as its performance is within my
required parameters. At the time, I rejected the Duet, (as I didn't want the
hassle of unvented storage) and the other one box solutions were
insufficiently specified (i.e. Powermax etc.) My requirement was to be able
to fill baths at full mains flow rate, simulataneously with a shower.

My two main concerns with the ACV (had it been available at that time) would
have been:

1. Weight/bulk. It was hard enough getting the Pandora into the loft.
Indeed, it almost got damaged in the process.

2. Unvented cylinder. The unvented capacity is greater than that may be
installed by non-competent persons.

Presumably there is a greater installation and maintenance cost as you need
a certified person?

Christian.

"Doctor Drivel"  wrote:


>
>"John Rumm"  wrote in message
>news:433197c5$0$49767$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
>
>> And due to the variable laws of thermodynamics, can be hoisted into a
>> loft by the expedient of adding a small hot air balloon on a string no
>> doubt!
>
>Good answer.  A look on Ebay will tell you chain winch is very cheap. Bolt
>to the rafers and pull up. Boy some people here are dumb.


A closer look at the legislation may make you realise you can't just
buy any old chain winch off ebay and deploy it in a commercial
environment.  In addition the application of a point load of 170kg
plus the weight of a chain winch to a "rafter" could lead to some very
serious problems - even worse if you bolt it to them as you suggest.

Back to the counter Dribble and sell some more copper tanks.

--

"Christian McArdle"  wrote in message
news:4332795f$0$12179$ed9e5944@reading.news.pipex.net...

> > We all get carried away with litres/min, when other times are more
> relevant
> > to the application, like 10 mins. You could get 42 litres/min for 5
mins,
> > but that will not fill two baths simultaneously.
>
> It is clear that the Duet and the ACV actually provide performance similar
> to separate box storage solutions. I'm sure I would have considered the
ACV
> when I installed my system (WB/DPS Pandora), as its performance is within
my
> required parameters.


The ACV is a re-work on the proven commercial Heatmasters. Very well thought
out.  It is narrower to get through domestic doors.


> At the time, I rejected the Duet, (as I didn't want the
> hassle of unvented storage) and the other one box solutions were
> insufficiently specified (i.e. Powermax etc.) My requirement was to be
able
> to fill baths at full mains flow rate, simulataneously with a shower.
>
> My two main concerns with the ACV (had it been available at that time)
would
> have been:
>
> 1. Weight/bulk. It was hard enough getting the Pandora into the loft.
> Indeed, it almost got damaged in the process.


Possible to get it in the loft but a winch would be necessary.


> 2. Unvented cylinder. The unvented capacity is greater than that may be
> installed by non-competent persons.
>
> Presumably there is a greater installation and maintenance cost as you
need
> a certified person?


The unvented aspect is the only drawback. I am not keen on unvented
appliances because of the BBA certification and annual service.

I believe someone posted a video here of an unvenetd cylinder exploding.

"Matt"  stupidly wrote in message
news:fvv4j1996i74kg11d0tavcu6u0u45kkk5b@4ax.com...

> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
>
> >
> >"John Rumm"  wrote in message
> >news:433197c5$0$49767$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
> >
> >> And due to the variable laws of thermodynamics, can be hoisted into a
> >> loft by the expedient of adding a small hot air balloon on a string no
> >> doubt!
> >
> >Good answer.  A look on Ebay will tell you chain winch is very cheap.
Bolt
> >to the rafers and pull up. Boy some people here are dumb.
>
> A closer look at the legislation may make you realise you can't just
> buy any old chain winch off ebay and deploy it in a commercial
> environment.

domestic.

> In addition the application of a point load of 170kg
> plus the weight of a chain winch to a "rafter"


You run a bar through a number of rafers to spead the weight.  Boy you are
dumb at times..........well all the time.

Combis, stainless stell and plastic pipes are taking over and you will be
out of a job soon.

<snip drivel>

timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:


>
>Matt wrote:
>> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Matt"  wrote in message
>> >news:agvti1tdb54evdsfap805rq0rafkfpdsnr@4ax.com...
>> >> timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Matt wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> The future's bright the future's copper.
>> >> >
>> >> >I don't expect any objective comment from you then.  ;-)
>> >>
>> >> Nothing wrong with stainless either
>> >
>> >Lunatic.  Stainless and combis are replacing copper. Hopefully you will be
>> >out of a job soon.
>>
>> Shows how out of touch you are Dribble.  All those leaflets and you
>> fail to see the big picture.
>>
>> Combi's went out with the ark. The Japanese can't get enough of our
>> copper tanks and the Rinnai's are being carted off for landfill in
>> their thousands.  Storage IS the future, sad for you but true.
>
>Do you have any hard facts? From my viewpoint large storage is on the
>way out. For me it's been out for the past 6 years. By trial and error
>and having tried to fit water systems in houses over the past 7 years,
>believe me, small quick recovery storage and instant water heating all
>in one case is certainly the future. Rinnais are selling very well, I
>have just ordered one, and Andrews and others rebadge them.


Why have you answered? the post was directed at Dr Dribble. You're
not Dribble in disguise are you?

Oh and yes I have the hard facts. In fact the disposal of the heaps of
now redundant instant water heaters has led to questions in the
Japanese Parliament.  Fortunately they can see the sense in storage
systems and are buying a huge proportion of copper tank output
worldwide. Sad for the combi manufacturers but true.



--

"Doctor Drivel"  wrote:


>
>"Matt"  the copper industry spammer wrote in
>message news:ilh2j1lqs1p1b9fho349t8gemu7f61qfgs@4ax.com...
>> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
>>
>> >You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the temp
>is
>> >always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same.  You could get a
>> >large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as deep
>as
>> >possible in the garden.  Constant mains temp all the time.
>>
>> No it isn't. Do you know the consequences of "bury it as deep as
>> possible in the garden" are ?
>>
>> Do you know at what temperature the MDPE will fail?
>
>You are real thick at times.  He wants a copper coil in there.  Such a
>spamming saddo.


No one said anything of the sort and copper is far better employed
elsewhere.

The implications of what you originally posted could be very dangerous
and it patently obvious you haven't thought it out at all. Sad but
true.

Back to the counter Dribble, no leaflet reading today either you
slacker.


--

"Doctor Drivel"  wrote:


>That is two separate items slapped into one frame. I believe you have to
>assemble it.  Not the same as in a ready made box, but getting there. They
>could have at least put a case around it and made it into a full one box
>solution; bad marketing. The Duet can't deliver 380 litres in 10 minutes. It
>has 200 litres maximum.
>
>We all get carried away with litres/min, when other times are more relevant
>to the application, like 10 mins. You could get 42 litres/min for 5 mins,
>but that will not fill two baths simultaneously. ACV is a class above
>Keston, and the tank-in-tank pisses all over others for re-heat. The ACV has
>an 80 litres unvented cylinder store, which can up to 10 bar, the Duet can't
>go that high. The Keston is reduced to about 3 bar and the less the pressure
>the less the throughput.  The ACV has no restriction, so a greater
>throughput.  The first 80 to 100 litres from the ACV will be equiv to the
>Duet.  Keston is equiv. to W-Bosch.  I believe the cylinder in the Duet is
>made by Ariston.


In less time than it took you to write that Drivel my bath was filled
to overflowing at 45 deg C.   

Back to the counter Dribble

--

"Matt"  wrote in message
news:qh15j1tbnrhb43cqpqddikg892bbhq4fij@4ax.com...

> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
>
> >That is two separate items slapped into one frame. I believe you have to
> >assemble it.  Not the same as in a ready made box, but getting there.
They
> >could have at least put a case around it and made it into a full one box
> >solution; bad marketing. The Duet can't deliver 380 litres in 10 minutes.
It
> >has 200 litres maximum.
> >
> >We all get carried away with litres/min, when other times are more
relevant
> >to the application, like 10 mins. You could get 42 litres/min for 5 mins,
> >but that will not fill two baths simultaneously. ACV is a class above
> >Keston, and the tank-in-tank pisses all over others for re-heat. The ACV
has
> >an 80 litres unvented cylinder store, which can up to 10 bar, the Duet
can't
> >go that high. The Keston is reduced to about 3 bar and the less the
pressure
> >the less the throughput.  The ACV has no restriction, so a greater
> >throughput.  The first 80 to 100 litres from the ACV will be equiv to the
> >Duet.  Keston is equiv. to W-Bosch.  I believe the cylinder in the Duet
is
> >made by Ariston.
>
> In less time than it took you to write that Drivel my bath was filled
> to overflowing at 45 deg C.


You are telling more porkies.


> Back to the counter Dribble


Yes you must sell more copper as the industry is failing.  Stand outside and
shout "get your copper 'ere, get your copper 'ere". That may improve sales.

"Matt"  wrote in message
news:iu05j1hu0cgm9nionh5slqva4729pt1sp6@4ax.com...

> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
>
> >
> >"Matt"  the copper industry spammer wrote in
> >message news:ilh2j1lqs1p1b9fho349t8gemu7f61qfgs@4ax.com...
> >> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
> >>
> >> >You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the
temp
> >is
> >> >always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same.  You could
get a
> >> >large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as
deep
> >as
> >> >possible in the garden.  Constant mains temp all the time.
> >>
> >> No it isn't. Do you know the consequences of "bury it as deep as
> >> possible in the garden" are ?
> >>
> >> Do you know at what temperature the MDPE will fail?
> >
> >You are real thick at times.  He wants a copper coil in there.  Such a
> >spamming saddo.
>
> No one said anything of the sort and copper is far better employed
> elsewhere.
>
> The implications of what you originally posted could be very dangerous


Could it blow up?

<snip drivel>

"Matt"  stupidly wrote in message
news:if05j1drmi1pni0rjut65saoffn55du485@4ax.com...

> timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >Matt wrote:
> >> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >"Matt"  wrote in message
> >> >news:agvti1tdb54evdsfap805rq0rafkfpdsnr@4ax.com...
> >> >> timegoesby@my-deja.com wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Matt wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >> The future's bright the future's copper.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I don't expect any objective comment from you then.  ;-)
> >> >>
> >> >> Nothing wrong with stainless either
> >> >
> >> >Lunatic.  Stainless and combis are replacing copper. Hopefully you
will be
> >> >out of a job soon.
> >>
> >> Shows how out of touch you are Dribble.  All those leaflets and you
> >> fail to see the big picture.
> >>
> >> Combi's went out with the ark. The Japanese can't get enough of our
> >> copper tanks and the Rinnai's are being carted off for landfill in
> >> their thousands.  Storage IS the future, sad for you but true.
> >
> >Do you have any hard facts? From my viewpoint large storage is on the
> >way out. For me it's been out for the past 6 years. By trial and error
> >and having tried to fit water systems in houses over the past 7 years,
> >believe me, small quick recovery storage and instant water heating all
> >in one case is certainly the future. Rinnais are selling very well, I
> >have just ordered one, and Andrews and others rebadge them.
>
> Why have you answered? the post was directed at


It is an open forum, otherwise take it off line.


> Oh and yes I have the hard facts. In fact the disposal of the heaps of
> now redundant instant water heaters has led to questions in the
> Japanese Parliament.


The Japanses are a throw away society.  We are pretty well the same. Combis
are so cheap if any major problems at times it is cheaper to replace, the
same with washing machines, dishwashers, etc.  You never knew that did you.

You were asked for hard facts. So far none.


> Fortunately they can see the sense in storage
> systems and are buying a huge proportion of copper tank output
> worldwide. Sad for the combi manufacturers but true.


You made that up.  You are a maker upperer.

"Doctor Drivel"  wrote:


>
>"Matt"  wrote in message
>news:fvv4j1996i74kg11d0tavcu6u0u45kkk5b@4ax.com...

>> A closer look at the legislation may make you realise you can't just
>> buy any old chain winch off ebay and deploy it in a commercial
>> environment.
>
>domestic.


If you even try arguing that with the HSE and you will fall flat on
your face.


>> In addition the application of a point load of 170kg
>> plus the weight of a chain winch to a "rafter"
>
>You run a bar through a number of rafers to spead the weight.  


Yes of course you do. First you have an illegal chain winch and now
you are drinking on the job.


>Combis, stainless stell and plastic pipes are taking over and you will be
>out of a job soon.


Dribble Drivel as usual,  combi sales are plummeting but when you are
still leaflet reading I will be retired. rich and getting richer by
the second. Now get back to that counter, 18 minutes to lunch and then
a hard afternoon selling copper tanks to the hoardes at your doors.

The future's bright, the future's copper


--

Doctor Drivel wrote:


> Good answer.  A look on Ebay will tell you chain winch is very cheap. Bolt
> to the rafers and pull up. Boy some people here are dumb.


Apparently so.... they might end up with a landing full of tiles and a 
large hole in the roof if they follow that advice!

-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

"Doctor Drivel"  wrote:


>
>"Matt"  wrote in message
>news:iu05j1hu0cgm9nionh5slqva4729pt1sp6@4ax.com...
>> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Matt"  the copper industry spammer wrote in
>> >message news:ilh2j1lqs1p1b9fho349t8gemu7f61qfgs@4ax.com...
>> >> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the
>temp
>> >is
>> >> >always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same.  You could
>get a
>> >> >large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as
>deep
>> >as
>> >> >possible in the garden.  Constant mains temp all the time.
>> >>
>> >> No it isn't. Do you know the consequences of "bury it as deep as
>> >> possible in the garden" are ?
>> >>
>> >> Do you know at what temperature the MDPE will fail?
>> >
>> >You are real thick at times.  He wants a copper coil in there.  Such a
>> >spamming saddo.
>>
>> No one said anything of the sort and copper is far better employed
>> elsewhere.
>>
>> The implications of what you originally posted could be very dangerous
>
>Could it blow up?


No, it is clear you are just guessing and there are no more clues.  So
back to the counter Dribble. 

The answers you'd need to address the problem won't be found in any
leaflet so you'll really struggle and at this stage in your treatment
they say its not good for you. But keep taking the tablets and you
might be allowed out in a few years.


--

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:32:05 +0100, Doctor Drivel   
wrote:


>> Back to the counter Dribble

> Yes you must sell more copper as the industry is failing.  Stand outside  
> and
> shout "get your copper 'ere, get your copper 'ere". That may improve  
> sales.


The price of copper is rising steadily, as is the demand. China is  
developing an insatiable appetite for copper. In fact, the "copper"  
coinage in the UK is no longer solid copper, as its scrap value exceeds  
its monetary value. It is a sandwich of steel in copper. Try a magnet. The  
uses zinc as a sandwich filling in its "copper" pennies. The only way the  
copper industry is failing is not keeping up with demand. Which village do  
you come from? They must be sorely missing their idiot.

John Schmitt

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

"Doctor Drivel"  wrote:


>
>"Matt"  wrote in message
>news:qh15j1tbnrhb43cqpqddikg892bbhq4fij@4ax.com...
>> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
>>
>> >That is two separate items slapped into one frame. I believe you have to
>> >assemble it.  Not the same as in a ready made box, but getting there.
>They
>> >could have at least put a case around it and made it into a full one box
>> >solution; bad marketing. The Duet can't deliver 380 litres in 10 minutes.
>It
>> >has 200 litres maximum.
>> >
>> >We all get carried away with litres/min, when other times are more
>relevant
>> >to the application, like 10 mins. You could get 42 litres/min for 5 mins,
>> >but that will not fill two baths simultaneously. ACV is a class above
>> >Keston, and the tank-in-tank pisses all over others for re-heat. The ACV
>has
>> >an 80 litres unvented cylinder store, which can up to 10 bar, the Duet
>can't
>> >go that high. The Keston is reduced to about 3 bar and the less the
>pressure
>> >the less the throughput.  The ACV has no restriction, so a greater
>> >throughput.  The first 80 to 100 litres from the ACV will be equiv to the
>> >Duet.  Keston is equiv. to W-Bosch.  I believe the cylinder in the Duet
>is
>> >made by Ariston.
>>
>> In less time than it took you to write that Drivel my bath was filled
>> to overflowing at 45 deg C.
>
>You are telling more porkies.
>
>> Back to the counter Dribble
>
>Yes you must sell more copper as the industry is failing.  Stand outside and
>shout "get your copper 'ere, get your copper 'ere". That may improve sales.


It is selling faster than it can be produced. Stock in hand has never
been lower, but a few more sales never did anyone any harm.  So stop
Dribbling and get selling Drivel.


--

John Rumm  wrote:


>Doctor Drivel wrote:
>
>> Good answer.  A look on Ebay will tell you chain winch is very cheap. Bolt
>> to the rafers and pull up. Boy some people here are dumb.
>
>Apparently so.... they might end up with a landing full of tiles and a 
>large hole in the roof if they follow that advice!


That just makes the job easier ;-) Tie a rope to the 170kg lump, throw
rope over roof. One bloke climbs ladder with 170kg lump on his back
while another two pull on rope on other side of house. When 170kg lump
reaches hole in roof drop through the convenient hole.

At this point the 170kg lump may fall through the ceiling but that's a
minor problem.


--

In article <433283d1$0$91477$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
   Doctor Drivel  wrote:

> > In addition the application of a point load of 170kg
> > plus the weight of a chain winch to a "rafter"

> You run a bar through a number of rafers to spead the weight.


What are you smoking now?


>  Boy you are dumb at times..........well all the time.


Please explain how 'you run a bar through a number of rafters'?

You intend drilling large holes in structural timbers? And just how do you
thread this presumably rigid bar through them? Remove the end wall?

So as well as flooding the basement with your plumbing, you're now
attacking the top of the house?

-- 
*Virtual reality is its own reward*

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Matt"  who spams a lot on this news group
wrote in message news:tu35j11nummk705i5lv5a8glcnt7h11sd3@4ax.com...

> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
>
> >
> >"Matt"  wrote in message
> >news:fvv4j1996i74kg11d0tavcu6u0u45kkk5b@4ax.com...
>
> >> A closer look at the legislation may make you realise you can't just
> >> buy any old chain winch off ebay and deploy it in a commercial
> >> environment.
> >
> >domestic.
>
> If you even try arguing that with the HSE and you will fall flat on
> your face.
>
> >> In addition the application of a point load of 170kg
> >> plus the weight of a chain winch to a "rafter"
> >
> >You run a bar through a number of rafers to spead the weight.
>
> Yes of course you do.


Good.  You are learning.


> >Combis, stainless stell and plastic pipes are taking over and you will be
> >out of a job soon.
>
> Dribble


No you will be out of a job. How does anyone ever employ you anyhow?

"John Rumm"  wrote in message
news:433291e9$0$73628$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...

> Doctor Drivel wrote:
>
> > Good answer.  A look on Ebay will tell you chain winch is very cheap.
Bolt
> > to the rafers and pull up. Boy some people here are dumb.
>
> Apparently so.... they might end up with a landing full of tiles and a
> large hole in the roof if they follow that advice!


Highly unlikely if common sense is applied.


>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John.
>
> /=================================================================\
> |          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
> |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
> |        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
> \=================================================================/

"Matt"  who spams a lot on this news group
wrote in message news:0g45j1dvll6pn18nj3a58a0ebt00gvrlhi@4ax.com...

> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
>
> >
> >"Matt"  wrote in message
> >news:iu05j1hu0cgm9nionh5slqva4729pt1sp6@4ax.com...
> >> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Matt"  the copper industry spammer wrote
in
> >> >message news:ilh2j1lqs1p1b9fho349t8gemu7f61qfgs@4ax.com...
> >> >> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the
> >temp
> >> >is
> >> >> >always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same.  You could
> >get a
> >> >> >large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as
> >deep
> >> >as
> >> >> >possible in the garden.  Constant mains temp all the time.
> >> >>
> >> >> No it isn't. Do you know the consequences of "bury it as deep as
> >> >> possible in the garden" are ?
> >> >>
> >> >> Do you know at what temperature the MDPE will fail?
> >> >
> >> >You are real thick at times.  He wants a copper coil in there.  Such a
> >> >spamming saddo.
> >>
> >> No one said anything of the sort and copper is far better employed
> >> elsewhere.
> >>
> >> The implications of what you originally posted could be very dangerous
> >
> >Could it blow up?
>
> No,


Thank you

<snip babbling drivel>

"John Schmitt"  wrote in message
news:op.sxh4e0o65ogug8@ps-00045861.uni.mdx.ac.uk...

> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:32:05 +0100, Doctor Drivel 
> wrote:
>
> >> Back to the counter Dribble
>
> > Yes you must sell more copper as the industry is failing.  Stand outside
> > and
> > shout "get your copper 'ere, get your copper 'ere". That may improve
> > sales.
>
> The price of copper is rising steadily, as is the demand. China is
> developing an insatiable appetite for copper. In fact, the "copper"
> coinage in the UK is no longer solid copper, as its scrap value exceeds
> its monetary value. It is a sandwich of steel in copper. Try a magnet. The
> uses zinc as a sandwich filling in its "copper" pennies. The only way the
> copper industry is failing is not keeping up with demand. Which village do
> you come from? They must be sorely missing their idiot.


It wasn't a village full of Nazis.

"Matt"  dribbled down his jersey and wrote in
message news:ln45j1l4qjshh59djcbui3ctspem804eac@4ax.com...

> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
>
> >
> >"Matt"  wrote in message
> >news:qh15j1tbnrhb43cqpqddikg892bbhq4fij@4ax.com...
> >> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
> >>
> >> >That is two separate items slapped into one frame. I believe you have
to
> >> >assemble it.  Not the same as in a ready made box, but getting there.
> >They
> >> >could have at least put a case around it and made it into a full one
box
> >> >solution; bad marketing. The Duet can't deliver 380 litres in 10
minutes.
> >It
> >> >has 200 litres maximum.
> >> >
> >> >We all get carried away with litres/min, when other times are more
> >relevant
> >> >to the application, like 10 mins. You could get 42 litres/min for 5
mins,
> >> >but that will not fill two baths simultaneously. ACV is a class above
> >> >Keston, and the tank-in-tank pisses all over others for re-heat. The
ACV
> >has
> >> >an 80 litres unvented cylinder store, which can up to 10 bar, the Duet
> >can't
> >> >go that high. The Keston is reduced to about 3 bar and the less the
> >pressure
> >> >the less the throughput.  The ACV has no restriction, so a greater
> >> >throughput.  The first 80 to 100 litres from the ACV will be equiv to
the
> >> >Duet.  Keston is equiv. to W-Bosch.  I believe the cylinder in the
Duet
> >is
> >> >made by Ariston.
> >>
> >> In less time than it took you to write that Drivel my bath was filled
> >> to overflowing at 45 deg C.
> >
> >You are telling more porkies.
> >
> >> Back to the counter Dribble
> >
> >Yes you must sell more copper as the industry is failing.  Stand outside
and
> >shout "get your copper 'ere, get your copper 'ere". That may improve
sales.
>
> It is selling faster than it can be produced.


Not for long in the water business, as plastic, and stainless take over.

"Dave Plowman (News)"  in a haze of senile flatulence
wrote in message news:4dae5f6eb2dave@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <433283d1$0$91477$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
>    Doctor Drivel  wrote:
> > > In addition the application of a point load of 170kg
> > > plus the weight of a chain winch to a "rafter"
>
> > You run a bar through a number of rafers to spead the weight.
>
> What are you smoking now?


He is trying bum a ciggie now.


> >  Boy you are dumb at times..........well all the time.
>
> Please explain how 'you run a bar through a number of rafters'?


You have confirmed your dumbness.

"Matt"  stupidly wrote in message
news:qc75j1plk2r254ulh8o23mgsl4o9q1r8eg@4ax.com...

> John Rumm  wrote:
>
> >Doctor Drivel wrote:
> >
> >> Good answer.  A look on Ebay will tell you chain winch is very cheap.
Bolt
> >> to the rafers and pull up. Boy some people here are dumb.
> >
> >Apparently so.... they might end up with a landing full of tiles and a
> >large hole in the roof if they follow that advice!
>
> That just makes the job easier ;-) Tie a rope to the 170kg lump, throw
> rope over roof. One bloke climbs ladder with 170kg lump on his back
> while another two pull on rope on other side of house. When 170kg lump
> reaches hole in roof drop through the convenient hole.


You are clearly mad.

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:19:38 +0100, John Schmitt   
dropped one:


> The uses zinc as a sandwich filling in its "copper" pennies.

      ^^
      US

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

John Schmitt wrote:

> In fact, the "copper" coinage in the UK is no longer solid copper


It never was, AFAIK.

"Owain"  wrote in message
news:1127133408.17313.2@echo.uk.clara.net...

> Doctor Drivel wrote:
> > Is Mary a man?
>
> She's more man than you'll ever be, sunshine.


All clear now. I see why Richard Cranium fancies him.

"Chris Bacon"  wrote in message
news:4332bbd5_1@x-privat.org...

> John Schmitt wrote:
> > In fact, the "copper" coinage in the UK is no longer solid copper
>
> It never was, AFAIK.


True. The older coins had more copper and in the 1960/1970/80s during a
copper price hype, a company was gathering all the old pennies and melting
them down.  It was very profitable.  They bought the pennies of course.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

> "Chris Bacon"  wrote in message
> news:4332bbd5_1@x-privat.org...
> 
>>John Schmitt wrote:
>>
>>>In fact, the "copper" coinage in the UK is no longer solid copper
>>
>>It never was, AFAIK.
> 
> 
> True. The older coins had more copper and in the 1960/1970/80s during a
> copper price hype, a company was gathering all the old pennies and melting
> them down.  It was very profitable.  They bought the pennies of course.
> 
> 

How much for?

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:43:30 +0100, Doctor Drivel   
wrote:

> They must be sorely missing their idiot.

> It wasn't a village full of Nazis.


Spoiler follows for those who object to strong language.




























The reason that you are not reading this is in German is that various of  
my forebears died fighting the Axis powers, you pathetic ingrate. It is  
unwise to make assumptions about peoples history by their surnames. More  
to the point, it is the French spelling of the name, coming from  
Alsace-Lorraine (go on, do the frog jokes, tosser). Further to that, you  
snivelling little turd, the forebears of five out of eight  
great-grandparents arrived in the United States Without passing through  
Ellis Island. That is because it had not been built yet. I have come to  
expect Nazi taunts on usenet from anonymous asswipes so you are like water  
off a duck's back. Now go and find the largest dildo you can, wrap it in  
barbed wire (to put some DIY into this post) and go and fuck yourself with  
it.

John Schmitt

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:16:06 +0100, Chris Bacon   
wrote:


> John Schmitt wrote:
>> In fact, the "copper" coinage in the UK is no longer solid copper

> It never was, AFAIK.


Up to at least 1859, they were pure copper, then solid copper-rich bronze  
up to 1992. Then the sandwich coins were introduced.

John Schmitt

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

In article <4332ca1e$0$59911$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
   Doctor Drivel  wrote:

> The older coins had more copper and in the 1960/1970/80s during a copper
> price hype, a company was gathering all the old pennies and melting them
> down.  It was very profitable.  They bought the pennies of course.


Makes no difference how they acquired them - it's illegal.

-- 
*I was once a millionaire but my mom gave away my baseball cards

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Doctor Drivel"  wrote:


>
>"Matt"  who spams a lot on this news group
>wrote in message news:tu35j11nummk705i5lv5a8glcnt7h11sd3@4ax.com...
>> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Matt"  wrote in message
>> >news:fvv4j1996i74kg11d0tavcu6u0u45kkk5b@4ax.com...
>>
>> >> A closer look at the legislation may make you realise you can't just
>> >> buy any old chain winch off ebay and deploy it in a commercial
>> >> environment.
>> >
>> >domestic.
>>
>> If you even try arguing that with the HSE and you will fall flat on
>> your face.
>>
>> >> In addition the application of a point load of 170kg
>> >> plus the weight of a chain winch to a "rafter"
>> >
>> >You run a bar through a number of rafers to spead the weight.
>>
>> Yes of course you do.
>
>Good.  You are learning.
>
>> >Combis, stainless stell and plastic pipes are taking over and you will be
>> >out of a job soon.
>>
>> Dribble
>
>No you will be out of a job. How does anyone ever employ you anyhow?
>


Dribble, It might be a stange concept that a mere slave like yourself
has difficulty understanding. No one employs me, they all work their
butts off making me incredibly rich so I can just enjoy spending lots
of money, winding you up now and again and then as further reward
receiving lots of freebies from numerous parties.

--

"Doctor Drivel"  wrote:


>
>"John Rumm"  wrote in message
>news:433291e9$0$73628$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
>> Doctor Drivel wrote:
>>
>> > Good answer.  A look on Ebay will tell you chain winch is very cheap.
>Bolt
>> > to the rafers and pull up. Boy some people here are dumb.
>>
>> Apparently so.... they might end up with a landing full of tiles and a
>> large hole in the roof if they follow that advice!
>
>Highly unlikely if common sense is applied.


Well that's you knackered for a start.


--

"Doctor Drivel"  wrote:


>
>"Matt"  who spams a lot on this news group
>wrote in message news:0g45j1dvll6pn18nj3a58a0ebt00gvrlhi@4ax.com...
>> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Matt"  wrote in message
>> >news:iu05j1hu0cgm9nionh5slqva4729pt1sp6@4ax.com...
>> >> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"Matt"  the copper industry spammer wrote
>in
>> >> >message news:ilh2j1lqs1p1b9fho349t8gemu7f61qfgs@4ax.com...
>> >> >> "Doctor Drivel"  wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the
>> >temp
>> >> >is
>> >> >> >always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same.  You could
>> >get a
>> >> >> >large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as
>> >deep
>> >> >as
>> >> >> >possible in the garden.  Constant mains temp all the time.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> No it isn't. Do you know the consequences of "bury it as deep as
>> >> >> possible in the garden" are ?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Do you know at what temperature the MDPE will fail?
>> >> >
>> >> >You are real thick at times.  He wants a copper coil in there.  Such a
>> >> >spamming saddo.
>> >>
>> >> No one said anything of the sort and copper is far better employed
>> >> elsewhere.
>> >>
>> >> The implications of what you originally posted could be very dangerous
>> >
>> >Could it blow up?
>>
>> No,
>
>Thank you
>


Blowing up never entered the list of hazards. The ones you should be
really considering are nothing to do with blowing up but could still
seriously ruin both your day and everyone around you. You really ought
to be showing improvement this far into your treatment. 


--