According to Ross, Lincoln is about to get ticket gates are any other
central trains stations getting them.Why has it taken CT so long?
 Also I note the ATW state in their annual report they are to gate 14
stations. Finally certain TOC's are wakeing upto the fact that they
could do alot better in collecting their fares in.

"47406"  wrote in message 
news:1126304188.619069.217480@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

> According to Ross, Lincoln is about to get ticket gates are any other
> central trains stations getting them.Why has it taken CT so long?
> Also I note the ATW state in their annual report they are to gate 14
> stations. Finally certain TOC's are wakeing upto the fact that they
> could do alot better in collecting their fares in.
>


Putting aside the installation and implementation costs of such schemes, 
it's a shame they didn't install them in more areas outside the South East.
I have strong views against fare evasion and on the occasional occurrence I 
use trains in the north of England, I always feel sick and tired of seeing 
people travelling on Northern Rail without paying, simply because they 
always have the excuse of "Well the ticket bloke (RPI) didn't come and sell 
me a ticket".
I would like to see some of these people try this excuse in a penalty fares 
area with Ticket machines, Travel Centres and Permit to Travel machines. In 
my opinion, the more deterrents the better.
Saying that, I still find myself laughing at the incredible amount of people 
whom travel down from the North to Kings Cross, rush straight into the Tube 
station to be faced with Faregates and respond "What's all this!".
I would have thought by now that everybody would be aware of such systems.

"47406"  wrote in message
news:1126304188.619069.217480@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

> According to Ross, Lincoln is about to get ticket gates are any other
> central trains stations getting them.Why has it taken CT so long?
>  Also I note the ATW state in their annual report they are to gate 14
> stations. Finally certain TOC's are wakeing upto the fact that they
> could do alot better in collecting their fares in.
>


great! and when there is no one in the ticket office and the machine is
buggered so we have to buy on the train what happens?
cheers
james

gonzo wrote:

> "47406"  wrote in message
> news:1126304188.619069.217480@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> 
>>According to Ross, Lincoln is about to get ticket gates are any other
>>central trains stations getting them.Why has it taken CT so long?
>> Also I note the ATW state in their annual report they are to gate 14
>>stations. Finally certain TOC's are wakeing upto the fact that they
>>could do alot better in collecting their fares in.
>>
> 
> 
> great! and when there is no one in the ticket office and the machine is
> buggered so we have to buy on the train what happens?
> cheers
> james
> 
> 


Ticket gates are only operational when the station is staffed. When no 
staff are on duty, the gates are left open. Apart from the case you 
describe, it is also necessary to manually let through people with 
non-magnetic tickets.

A

"Anonymouse" <anonymouse@withheld.nothing> wrote in message
news:5OGdnZ2dnZ3cXt-pnZ2dnYudvt6dnZ2dRVnypJ2dnZ0@eclipse.net.uk...

> gonzo wrote:
> > "47406"  wrote in message
> > news:1126304188.619069.217480@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >>According to Ross, Lincoln is about to get ticket gates are any other
> >>central trains stations getting them.Why has it taken CT so long?
> >> Also I note the ATW state in their annual report they are to gate 14
> >>stations. Finally certain TOC's are wakeing upto the fact that they
> >>could do alot better in collecting their fares in.
> >>
> >
> >
> > great! and when there is no one in the ticket office and the machine is
> > buggered so we have to buy on the train what happens?
> > cheers
> > james
> >
> >
>
> Ticket gates are only operational when the station is staffed. When no
> staff are on duty, the gates are left open. Apart from the case you
> describe, it is also necessary to manually let through people with
> non-magnetic tickets.
>

ahhh thanks, that answers the question then - sort of. does that mean the
ticket office has to be staffed or just someone in the station??? i pictured
chaos on a friday night.
cheers
james

>Ticket gates are only operational when the station is staffed. When no
>staff are on duty, the gates are left open. Apart from the case you
>describe, it is also necessary to manually let through people with
>non-magnetic tickets.



Or else the entrance area is closed completely and a side gate is
opened.  There were complaints down my way that disabled (or tired or
overloaded) people were forced a long way round to get into a
particular station when it was staffed, because the side gate was
locked, even though it would have provided easy access.  But when the
station wasn't staffed (often), the side gate was open.  Difficult to
work out the logic of that, when the station had no barriers and the
staff didn't check tickets anyway.

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 15:41:47 GMT, "gonzo" 
wrote:


>great! and when there is no one in the ticket office and the machine is
>buggered so we have to buy on the train what happens?


The gates are not permitted to be closed without a member of staff
supervising them.  This is for safety reasons.  Said member of staff
can open all the gates if there is no suitable[1] means of purchasing
a ticket.

[1] Though this isn't set in stone, a cash-only Quickfare is
generally-speaking not seen to be enough on its own, due to the
limited range of tickets, the hassle of cashing one in against a
longer-distance ticket and the inability to pay by credit card, which
I always do when travelling by train.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On 10 Sep 2005 09:25:51 -0700, "MIG" 
wrote:


>>Ticket gates are only operational when the station is staffed. When no
>>staff are on duty, the gates are left open. Apart from the case you
>>describe, it is also necessary to manually let through people with
>>non-magnetic tickets.
>
>
>Or else the entrance area is closed completely and a side gate is
>opened.  There were complaints down my way that disabled (or tired or
>overloaded) people were forced a long way round to get into a
>particular station when it was staffed, because the side gate was
>locked, even though it would have provided easy access.  But when the
>station wasn't staffed (often), the side gate was open.  Difficult to
>work out the logic of that, when the station had no barriers and the
>staff didn't check tickets anyway.


There is one near me like that. It doesn't help that the after-hours
gate to platform 1 is fairly well hidden, and I've often had people
getting off trains asking how to get out, or people at the locked main
entrance wondering how to get in. The route between platforms involves
lots of steps, but they now leave a formerly-locked side gate to
platform 2 open, so a less mobile person can approach the station from
the side they need.
-- 
Arthur Figgis                Surrey, UK

On 9 Sep 2005 15:16:28 -0700, 47406 wrote in
, seen in
uk.railway:


> According to Ross, Lincoln is about to get ticket gates 

[...]

I've been told today that the introduction has been postponed until
March next year at the earliest. There's also a suggestion that the
costs involved may lead to a rethink.

-- 
Ross, a.k.a.
Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life)
Hon. Pres., National Soc. for the Encouragement for Cruelty to Dogboxes
Proud to be the target of various trolls, sock puppets and other idiots

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 22:43:52 +0100 someone who may be Ross
 wrote this:-


>There's also a suggestion that the
>costs involved may lead to a rethink.


I sometimes wonder what the benefit of automatic ticket barriers is
at less busy stations. As well as the installation cost there is the
running cost.

In an area where travellers are not regimented the manual gate can
become a bottleneck. Visitors asking for information, people with
prams, bikes and cases, people with "unusual" tickets can all clog
the manual barrier, especially if there is only one in use and that
is for both directions. I wonder if those specifying such things
ever consider this, or go for the maximum number of automatic gates
and the minimum number of manual ones that they can? I suspect that
this failure to understand passengers does take place, as it does
with new trains.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

"David Hansen"  wrote in message 
news:crm7i11f724tlk1nfmbgi9h690rt9bier4@4ax.com...

> On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 22:43:52 +0100 someone who may be Ross
>  wrote this:-
>
>>There's also a suggestion that the
>>costs involved may lead to a rethink.
>
> I sometimes wonder what the benefit of automatic ticket barriers is
> at less busy stations. As well as the installation cost there is the
> running cost.


I'm inclined to agree with you, but...


> In an area where travellers are not regimented the manual gate can
> become a bottleneck. Visitors asking for information, people with
> prams, bikes and cases, people with "unusual" tickets can all clog
> the manual barrier, especially if there is only one in use and that
> is for both directions. I wonder if those specifying such things
> ever consider this, or go for the maximum number of automatic gates
> and the minimum number of manual ones that they can?


There always has to be a minimum of one manned gate.
At my local station there are two separate exits so I suppose that
this difference is important but nevertheless I think it's still a
useful baseline:
At each entrance there are two entry barriers, two exit barriers
and one manual gate.

This is a busy commuter station (I think it was in the top 200
on that list that somebody posted recently) and there is rarely
a queue at any of the barriers (manned or otherwise).
There aren't going to be many stations above this that need
more than one manned gate per exit

The problem as I see it is the need to have the barriers
constantly manned or set to 'free flow' (turned off).

The worth of the barriers has to be costed against the running
costs of the second ticket checker because the first one still
has to be there, and ISTM that smaller stations never have
this second person (perhaps because of recruitment difficulties),
so the question is, does the barriers collect more fares than
a second collector would.

I very much doubt that this is the case

tim

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 10:06:13 +0200 someone who may be "tim \(moved
to sweden\)"  wrote this:-


>At each entrance there are two entry barriers, two exit barriers
>and one manual gate.


At Edinburgh Waverley there are perhaps twelve automatic barriers.
There are two manual gates, but I have only ever seen one of them in
use. There can be relatively long delays at the manual gate.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 10:06:13 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)"
 wrote:


>The worth of the barriers has to be costed against the running
>costs of the second ticket checker because the first one still
>has to be there, and ISTM that smaller stations never have
>this second person (perhaps because of recruitment difficulties),
>so the question is, does the barriers collect more fares than
>a second collector would.


At some smaller LU stations, the gateline is visible from the ticket
window and is monitored by the member of staff there, thus not
requiring any extra staff.

"asdf" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message 
news:dvt7i192fe0qc3cmtgt0mgrgpd7c6aa713@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 10:06:13 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)"
>  wrote:
>
>>The worth of the barriers has to be costed against the running
>>costs of the second ticket checker because the first one still
>>has to be there, and ISTM that smaller stations never have
>>this second person (perhaps because of recruitment difficulties),
>>so the question is, does the barriers collect more fares than
>>a second collector would.
>
> At some smaller LU stations, the gateline is visible from the ticket
> window and is monitored by the member of staff there, thus not
> requiring any extra staff.


Manned tickets offices!  On SWT after 19:00 - you're having a
larf?

tim

"David Hansen"  wrote in message 
news:c1r7i15fn4k5tf9ub4d1huogmq1l3etp7b@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 10:06:13 +0200 someone who may be "tim \(moved
> to sweden\)"  wrote this:-
>
>>At each entrance there are two entry barriers, two exit barriers
>>and one manual gate.
>
> At Edinburgh Waverley there are perhaps twelve automatic barriers.
> There are two manual gates, but I have only ever seen one of them in
> use. There can be relatively long delays at the manual gate.


I conceed that the dozen or so major stations working as both
long distance interchanges and local commuter destinations
need more, but I don't think that the majority of stations fall
into this category.

tim

asdf wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 10:06:13 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)"
>  wrote:
>
> >The worth of the barriers has to be costed against the running
> >costs of the second ticket checker because the first one still
> >has to be there, and ISTM that smaller stations never have
> >this second person (perhaps because of recruitment difficulties),
> >so the question is, does the barriers collect more fares than
> >a second collector would.
>
> At some smaller LU stations, the gateline is visible from the ticket
> window and is monitored by the member of staff there, thus not
> requiring any extra staff.



On both LU and NR, there needs to be some rationalisation of which
tickets will be accepted by the automatic barriers, to remove some
unnecessary use of the manual barriers.

For example, with extension tickets, you might need to prove that you
have the original ticket either when buying it or when arriving at the
destination, but why both?  Why buy a ticket that requires you to queue
and prove that you have eg a travelcard (because machines don't sell
extensions) and then still get stopped at the barrier at the other end?

A recent example I found was when a clerk sold me a ticket from
Boundary Zone 6 to a particular destination, and it wasn't accepted by
the barrier on arrival.  When a different clerk chose to issue a ticket
at exactly the same price from the named station at the boundary (even
though I still had to get there with a travelcard and showed that I had
it) it was accepted by the barrier at the destination.

Since it is possible to buy a ticket from any point to any other point,
from third station which is not even on the route, and which will be
accepted by barriers, the obstacles placed on the use of extensions
really do need to be reviewed (they are an advantage over named
stations when, for example, returning via a different route, as is
likely round South London).

Perhaps latest Avantix is improved, but I thought when first introduced by 
CT the ticket issue was painfully slow onto card tickets. So CT now uses 
paper tickets, around Nottingham at least, which speeds ticket printing. 
Will Lincoln's gates mean CT will have to return to card tickets? What does 
NT issue I wonder?

David

David Thornhill wrote:

> Perhaps latest Avantix is improved, but I thought when first introduced by 
> CT the ticket issue was painfully slow onto card tickets. So CT now uses 
> paper tickets, around Nottingham at least, which speeds ticket printing. 
> Will Lincoln's gates mean CT will have to return to card tickets? What does 
> NT issue I wonder?
> 


By NT do you mean Northern Rail? If so, they use SPORTIS not Avantix.

Philip.

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 12:42:05 GMT, David Thornhill wrote in
<xCVUe.1946$K5.1197@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>, seen in uk.railway:


> Perhaps latest Avantix is improved, but I thought when first introduced by 
> CT the ticket issue was painfully slow onto card tickets. So CT now uses 
> paper tickets, around Nottingham at least, which speeds ticket printing. 
> Will Lincoln's gates mean CT will have to return to card tickets? What does 
> NT issue I wonder?


CT never used card tickets in fleet service, although they may well
have done when the machines were being introduced and were refusing to
work properly with roll tickets - if so, they must have "borrowed"
them from MML. ;-)

Given the way the railway works, not just CT, I suspect it hasn't
occurred to TPTB that a significant proportion of pax using Lincoln
will have portable machine issued tickets, and given that both CT's
Avantix and Northern's SPORTIS are roll issues, that's going to mean a
lot of use of the swipe cards.

AIUI there won't be a manual gate per se; whoever is monitoring the
gate will have a swipe card (as will all Lincoln based staff), and
will use that to open the gates for pax with non-swipeable tickets.
Life being the way it is, I suspect that in time that person won't pay
much attention to what s/he's being shown, and the pax will soon
enough twig onto that.

-- 
Ross, a.k.a.
Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life)
Hon. Pres., National Soc. for the Encouragement for Cruelty to Dogboxes
Proud to be the target of various trolls, sock puppets and other idiots

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 00:35:41 +0100, Ross 
wrote:


>AIUI there won't be a manual gate per se


Interesting - are they going for the super-wide wheelchair gate design
pioneered by fGW?

That said, SS, who have normal gates, prefer to use the gate pass than
allow people through the manual gate.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

> David Thornhillwrote:

Perhaps latest Avantix is improved, but I thought when first
introduced by 

> CT the ticket issue was painfully slow onto card tickets. So CT now
uses 
> paper tickets, around Nottingham at least, which speeds ticket
printing. 
> Will Lincoln's gates mean CT will have to return to card tickets?
What does 
> NT issue I wonder?
> 
> David


Northern currently use Sportis but are, along with TPE, going over to
Avantix soon.

CT are changing to Card Tickets for the Avantix in the next few
months.

automatic ticket gates are to be installed at Leicester, Loughborough
and Lincoln, and maybe Beeston.

Let's hope they introduce Platform Tickets at Loughborough then, I can
understand why they are doing it, I saw this bloke run from the Police
the other week when I walked with Chaz and Marv to the station to see
them onto their train, and they had Revenue Protection Officers
there, hope they remember to mend the gap in the fence where the Bike
Stand is.

"steve158" <shrubhillclaret@yahoo.co-dot-uk.no-spam.invalid> wrote in 
message news:dg49s7$63m$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

>
> automatic ticket gates are to be installed at Leicester, Loughborough
> and Lincoln, and maybe Beeston.
>


Beeston! There are five exits currently, plus two 'unofficial' routes to the 
Victoria. To get between platforms is via public road so from booking office 
to westbound platform would mean going through three sets of gates or a long 
hike.

Most useful gate would be to create an official access at west end to the 
footbridge (or direct into the Victoria beer garden!).

David

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 00:02:27 GMT, Neil Williams wrote in
, seen in uk.railway:

> On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 00:35:41 +0100, Ross 
> wrote:
> 
> >AIUI there won't be a manual gate per se
> 
> Interesting - are they going for the super-wide wheelchair gate design
> pioneered by fGW?


We're under the impression that the current arches (about the same
width as a 150 door) won't be altered, so if gates are to be fitted in
the arches [1] (replacing the current doors), I think it would have to
be one, wide gate; I can't see how they could fit two of the normal
size gates there. 

I suppose the other option is to put a gate line on the platform side
of the arch(es), allowing more than one gate to be fitted.

I've not seen the actual plans, though, so I don't know the details.

 

> That said, SS, who have normal gates, prefer to use the gate pass than
> allow people through the manual gate.


I'm assuming that is what will happen at Lincoln _if_ the gates ever
appear.


[1] There are two. One is currently used as the booking hall -
platform access; the other is out of use most of the time, being
opened for use as an during the Christmas market. This second arch is
apparently planned to be gated as the full-time exit, with the booking
hall - platform access being entry to platform only.
-- 
Ross, a.k.a.
Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life)
Hon. Pres., National Soc. for the Encouragement for Cruelty to Dogboxes
Proud to be the target of various trolls, sock puppets and other idiots

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:36:37 GMT, David Thornhill wrote in
<p8iVe.11360$Aa1.8535@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net>, seen in uk.railway:

[Beeston]

> Most useful gate would be to create an official access at west end to the 
> footbridge (or direct into the Victoria beer garden!).


They daren't do the latter; all the trains would be terminating on
arrival with the crews disappearing into the beer garden. ;-)

-- 
Ross, a.k.a.
Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life)
Hon. Pres., National Soc. for the Encouragement for Cruelty to Dogboxes
Proud to be the target of various trolls, sock puppets and other idiots

gonzo wrote:


> ahhh thanks, that answers the question then - sort of. does that mean 
> the ticket office has to be staffed or just someone in the station??? 
> i pictured chaos on a friday night.


The ticket barriers have to be manned, either actually or (I think)
remotely from within the station.

This is so that
(i) Passengers without tickets are not stranded.
(ii) Passengers with 'big' tickets are not stranded.
(iii) Passengers with big luggage are not stranded, and
most importantly,
(iv) In the event of fire or other emergency, passengers are not burnt
     to a cinder.

I believe it is acceptable for a member of staff to remotely monitor
the barriers from elsewhere in the station if they can instantly open
all the barriers in an emergency.

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 21:46:04 +0100 someone who may be Stevie D
 wrote this:-


>I believe it is acceptable for a member of staff to remotely monitor
>the barriers from elsewhere in the station if they can instantly open
>all the barriers in an emergency.


It was claimed this was not possible at Edinburgh Waverley. As a
result passengers are inconvenienced as all sorts of routes between
platforms are blocked by concentration camp style fences.

Still they are only the passengers and few give two hoots about
them.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.