Last night I went to a friend's house about 20 miles away when I got there I
noticed that the headlamps didn't seem as bright as normal.

Since it was a diesel escort van, I knew that the battery wasn't needed to
run the engine but a fault would affect all the other systems.

I stopped the engine and tried to restart it but the battery was as flat as
a pancake.
Since I didn't have tools (invitation to have the van broken into) and my
friend is a non-driver is naturally didn't have a batt charger decided to
wait until morning before worrying about it (staying over after a few
beers). But my initial diagnosis was that the alternator had gone bad and
wasn't outputting enough amperage (but enough to turn off dash light)

In morning called recovery firm, who then sent subcontracted local firms low
loader an hour later. After describing fault I watched him measure the
battery voltage (10v) then he went on the check the oil (just under the min
mark) the water and the brake fluid (whilst I'm thinking I've got a flat
battery, the fluids have nothing to do with that).

Then he tries one of those small booster packs with the small rechargeable
battery in them. He connects it up and tells me to try the ignition straight
away - nothing happens.

Plan B: heavier jump leads from recovery truck are connected up, try
straight away -nothing

Plan C: heavy leads and booster pack together, try straight away -nothing.

I suggest that we wait a few minutes to transfer a little charge into my
batt as I know the immobiliser (which also controls the starter motor) is
very intolerant of a low battery voltage.

He then gives me the "I'm the mechanic, you know nothing" look

He the announces that the engine block has seized and wants to take it back
to his firms garage for investigation and repair. I argue that the cost of
that would be more that the vehicle is worth and since my breakdown recovery
is a return to home policy could he take me there where I will rebuild the
engine my self.

Reluctantly I am eventually recovered to my home address.

I put the batt on rapid 6 amp charge straight away and busy my self for the
next hour, then try to start the engine, fires on first try and using a
clamp meter I find that the alternator is only outputting 3 amps.

And hour and forty pounds later I have a reconditioned alternator putting 20
amps at idle into the batt from the "seized" engine.

Has any one else encountered this.

"Andrew Carr"  wrote in message
news:k7WdnZ2dnZ3V0TrJnZ2dneLyvt6dnZ2dRVnyoJ2dnZ0@pipex.net...

> Last night I went to a friend's house about 20 miles away when I got there
I
> noticed that the headlamps didn't seem as bright as normal.
>
> Since it was a diesel escort van, I knew that the battery wasn't needed to
> run the engine but a fault would affect all the other systems.
>
> I stopped the engine and tried to restart it but the battery was as flat
as
> a pancake.
> Since I didn't have tools (invitation to have the van broken into) and my
> friend is a non-driver is naturally didn't have a batt charger decided to
> wait until morning before worrying about it (staying over after a few
> beers). But my initial diagnosis was that the alternator had gone bad and
> wasn't outputting enough amperage (but enough to turn off dash light)
>
> In morning called recovery firm, who then sent subcontracted local firms
low
> loader an hour later. After describing fault I watched him measure the
> battery voltage (10v) then he went on the check the oil (just under the
min
> mark) the water and the brake fluid (whilst I'm thinking I've got a flat
> battery, the fluids have nothing to do with that).
>
> Then he tries one of those small booster packs with the small rechargeable
> battery in them. He connects it up and tells me to try the ignition
straight
> away - nothing happens.
>
> Plan B: heavier jump leads from recovery truck are connected up, try
> straight away -nothing
>
> Plan C: heavy leads and booster pack together, try straight away -nothing.
>
> I suggest that we wait a few minutes to transfer a little charge into my
> batt as I know the immobiliser (which also controls the starter motor) is
> very intolerant of a low battery voltage.
>
> He then gives me the "I'm the mechanic, you know nothing" look
>
> He the announces that the engine block has seized and wants to take it
back
> to his firms garage for investigation and repair. I argue that the cost of
> that would be more that the vehicle is worth and since my breakdown
recovery
> is a return to home policy could he take me there where I will rebuild the
> engine my self.
>
> Reluctantly I am eventually recovered to my home address.
>
> I put the batt on rapid 6 amp charge straight away and busy my self for
the
> next hour, then try to start the engine, fires on first try and using a
> clamp meter I find that the alternator is only outputting 3 amps.
>
> And hour and forty pounds later I have a reconditioned alternator putting
20
> amps at idle into the batt from the "seized" engine.
>
> Has any one else encountered this.


Yes just last weekend, returning from trip to airport, stopped off for
petrol (90.9p per litre instead of the local 99.9p) when the lady at the
pump in front of me says ' is that pool of water from your car ?' which it
was. Looked pretty terminal so called out my 'well known' get you home
recovery service. Call out was excellent 7 minutes from initial phone call.
That's where the excellence ended. Immediate diagnosis was that no hoses
were leaking and certain 'that the cylinder head gasket has blown will get a
recovery vehicle out for you'. Being completely ignorant on things
'mechanical' particularly on the modern car, I took him at his word and
started to think about looking for another 'banger' as the cost of doing it
would have been more than the car was worth.

Got it recovered home and youngest son started interrogating me about the
symptoms leading up to the coolant loss. His reaction was 'no way had the
head gasket blown', topped up the water and took it out straight away, came
back, opened the bonnet and pointed out that although the engine had
overheated while he was out, the radiator fan had not come on and very
quickly identified the radiator fan switch as being the problem. Got me back
on the road straight away by bypassing the switch (two pieces of wire) and a
week later is still working without any overheating. Picked up a new switch
for 6 and waiting for son to fit it, But he hadn't been around I would have
had to accept that the recovery mechanic's diagnosis was correct and either
scrapped the car or put it in the garage and face a bill of  250-300.
Makes you wonder whether these people are trained properly doesn't it

Geoff

"GeoffP" <geoffunderscorepugh@hotmaildotcom> wrote in message 
news:43237806$0$97137$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...

>
> "Andrew Carr"  wrote in message
> news:k7WdnZ2dnZ3V0TrJnZ2dneLyvt6dnZ2dRVnyoJ2dnZ0@pipex.net...
>> Last night I went to a friend's house about 20 miles away when I got 
>> there
> I
>> noticed that the headlamps didn't seem as bright as normal.
>>
>> Since it was a diesel escort van, I knew that the battery wasn't needed 
>> to
>> run the engine but a fault would affect all the other systems.
>>
>> I stopped the engine and tried to restart it but the battery was as flat
> as
>> a pancake.
>> Since I didn't have tools (invitation to have the van broken into) and my
>> friend is a non-driver is naturally didn't have a batt charger decided to
>> wait until morning before worrying about it (staying over after a few
>> beers). But my initial diagnosis was that the alternator had gone bad and
>> wasn't outputting enough amperage (but enough to turn off dash light)
>>
>> In morning called recovery firm, who then sent subcontracted local firms
> low
>> loader an hour later. After describing fault I watched him measure the
>> battery voltage (10v) then he went on the check the oil (just under the
> min
>> mark) the water and the brake fluid (whilst I'm thinking I've got a flat
>> battery, the fluids have nothing to do with that).
>>
>> Then he tries one of those small booster packs with the small 
>> rechargeable
>> battery in them. He connects it up and tells me to try the ignition
> straight
>> away - nothing happens.
>>
>> Plan B: heavier jump leads from recovery truck are connected up, try
>> straight away -nothing
>>
>> Plan C: heavy leads and booster pack together, try straight 
>> away -nothing.
>>
>> I suggest that we wait a few minutes to transfer a little charge into my
>> batt as I know the immobiliser (which also controls the starter motor) is
>> very intolerant of a low battery voltage.
>>
>> He then gives me the "I'm the mechanic, you know nothing" look
>>
>> He the announces that the engine block has seized and wants to take it
> back
>> to his firms garage for investigation and repair. I argue that the cost 
>> of
>> that would be more that the vehicle is worth and since my breakdown
> recovery
>> is a return to home policy could he take me there where I will rebuild 
>> the
>> engine my self.
>>
>> Reluctantly I am eventually recovered to my home address.
>>
>> I put the batt on rapid 6 amp charge straight away and busy my self for
> the
>> next hour, then try to start the engine, fires on first try and using a
>> clamp meter I find that the alternator is only outputting 3 amps.
>>
>> And hour and forty pounds later I have a reconditioned alternator putting
> 20
>> amps at idle into the batt from the "seized" engine.
>>
>> Has any one else encountered this.
>
> Yes just last weekend, returning from trip to airport, stopped off for
> petrol (90.9p per litre instead of the local 99.9p) when the lady at the
> pump in front of me says ' is that pool of water from your car ?' which it
> was. Looked pretty terminal so called out my 'well known' get you home
> recovery service. Call out was excellent 7 minutes from initial phone 
> call.
> That's where the excellence ended. Immediate diagnosis was that no hoses
> were leaking and certain 'that the cylinder head gasket has blown will get 
> a
> recovery vehicle out for you'. Being completely ignorant on things
> 'mechanical' particularly on the modern car, I took him at his word and
> started to think about looking for another 'banger' as the cost of doing 
> it
> would have been more than the car was worth.
>
> Got it recovered home and youngest son started interrogating me about the
> symptoms leading up to the coolant loss. His reaction was 'no way had the
> head gasket blown', topped up the water and took it out straight away, 
> came
> back, opened the bonnet and pointed out that although the engine had
> overheated while he was out, the radiator fan had not come on and very
> quickly identified the radiator fan switch as being the problem. Got me 
> back
> on the road straight away by bypassing the switch (two pieces of wire) and 
> a
> week later is still working without any overheating. Picked up a new 
> switch
> for 6 and waiting for son to fit it, But he hadn't been around I would 
> have
> had to accept that the recovery mechanic's diagnosis was correct and 
> either
> scrapped the car or put it in the garage and face a bill of  250-300.
> Makes you wonder whether these people are trained properly doesn't it


I think a lot of them are just drivers and only have a basic understanding 
of cars.
I've even seen aa/rac give wrong diagnosis at the side of the road.
They are usually under pressure and it's harder to check stuff out at the 
side of the road.
I'm a mechanic mot tester with a class 2 hgv licence and there's no way I'd 
do recovery work :O)

Always get a second opinion.

Andrew Carr wrote:

> Last night I went to a friend's house about 20 miles away when I got there I
> noticed that the headlamps didn't seem as bright as normal.
>
> Since it was a diesel escort van, I knew that the battery wasn't needed to
> run the engine but a fault would affect all the other systems.
>
> I stopped the engine and tried to restart it but the battery was as flat as
> a pancake.
> Since I didn't have tools (invitation to have the van broken into) and my
> friend is a non-driver is naturally didn't have a batt charger decided to
> wait until morning before worrying about it (staying over after a few
> beers). But my initial diagnosis was that the alternator had gone bad and
> wasn't outputting enough amperage (but enough to turn off dash light)
>
> In morning called recovery firm, who then sent subcontracted local firms low
> loader an hour later. After describing fault I watched him measure the
> battery voltage (10v) then he went on the check the oil (just under the min
> mark) the water and the brake fluid (whilst I'm thinking I've got a flat
> battery, the fluids have nothing to do with that).
>
> Then he tries one of those small booster packs with the small rechargeable
> battery in them. He connects it up and tells me to try the ignition straight
> away - nothing happens.
>
> Plan B: heavier jump leads from recovery truck are connected up, try
> straight away -nothing
>
> Plan C: heavy leads and booster pack together, try straight away -nothing.
>
> I suggest that we wait a few minutes to transfer a little charge into my
> batt as I know the immobiliser (which also controls the starter motor) is
> very intolerant of a low battery voltage.
>
> He then gives me the "I'm the mechanic, you know nothing" look
>
> He the announces that the engine block has seized and wants to take it back
> to his firms garage for investigation and repair. I argue that the cost of
> that would be more that the vehicle is worth and since my breakdown recovery
> is a return to home policy could he take me there where I will rebuild the
> engine my self.
>
> Reluctantly I am eventually recovered to my home address.
>
> I put the batt on rapid 6 amp charge straight away and busy my self for the
> next hour, then try to start the engine, fires on first try and using a
> clamp meter I find that the alternator is only outputting 3 amps.
>
> And hour and forty pounds later I have a reconditioned alternator putting 20
> amps at idle into the batt from the "seized" engine.
>
> Has any one else encountered this.


No, I haven't, but I bet it happens a lot.  I don't trust any monkey to
work on my car!

"Andrew Carr"  wrote in message 
news:k7WdnZ2dnZ3V0TrJnZ2dneLyvt6dnZ2dRVnyoJ2dnZ0@pipex.net...

> Last night I went to a friend's house about 20 miles away when I got there 
> I
> noticed that the headlamps didn't seem as bright as normal.
>
> Since it was a diesel escort van, I knew that the battery wasn't needed to
> run the engine but a fault would affect all the other systems.
>
> I stopped the engine and tried to restart it but the battery was as flat 
> as
> a pancake.
> Since I didn't have tools (invitation to have the van broken into) and my
> friend is a non-driver is naturally didn't have a batt charger decided to
> wait until morning before worrying about it (staying over after a few
> beers). But my initial diagnosis was that the alternator had gone bad and
> wasn't outputting enough amperage (but enough to turn off dash light)
>
> In morning called recovery firm, who then sent subcontracted local firms 
> low
> loader an hour later. After describing fault I watched him measure the
> battery voltage (10v) then he went on the check the oil (just under the 
> min
> mark) the water and the brake fluid (whilst I'm thinking I've got a flat
> battery, the fluids have nothing to do with that).
>
> Then he tries one of those small booster packs with the small rechargeable
> battery in them. He connects it up and tells me to try the ignition 
> straight
> away - nothing happens.
>
> Plan B: heavier jump leads from recovery truck are connected up, try
> straight away -nothing
>
> Plan C: heavy leads and booster pack together, try straight away -nothing.
>
> I suggest that we wait a few minutes to transfer a little charge into my
> batt as I know the immobiliser (which also controls the starter motor) is
> very intolerant of a low battery voltage.
>
> He then gives me the "I'm the mechanic, you know nothing" look
>
> He the announces that the engine block has seized and wants to take it 
> back
> to his firms garage for investigation and repair. I argue that the cost of
> that would be more that the vehicle is worth and since my breakdown 
> recovery
> is a return to home policy could he take me there where I will rebuild the
> engine my self.
>
> Reluctantly I am eventually recovered to my home address.
>
> I put the batt on rapid 6 amp charge straight away and busy my self for 
> the
> next hour, then try to start the engine, fires on first try and using a
> clamp meter I find that the alternator is only outputting 3 amps.
>
> And hour and forty pounds later I have a reconditioned alternator putting 
> 20
> amps at idle into the batt from the "seized" engine.
>
> Has any one else encountered this.


A metro was relayed across the country to me a few years ago, the diagnosis 
was that it needed a new carburettor, I fitted a distributor cap and rotor 
arm and gave it back to the owner.

mrcheerful

> Makes you wonder whether these people are trained properly doesn't it
>


They are trained....Trained to extract your money from you  :-)

Des
www.McKeller.com

"Andy Hewitt"  wrote in message 
news:1h2q2jm.1x552wk12ushbxN%hairy.biker@spamcop.net...

> Andrew Carr  wrote:
>
> <Snipped Text>
>
>> And hour and forty pounds later I have a reconditioned alternator putting 
>> 20
>> amps at idle into the batt from the "seized" engine.
>>
>> Has any one else encountered this.
>
> As many of you know, I work in a dealership, and yes, this is normal.
> Recovery drivers are mechanics that didn't make it. I tried to go into
> that myself, but turned down because I'm too qualified.
>
> We usually discard the report sheets and start again.
>
> What is really annoying is when they find a car with an intermittant
> fault, and get it going, bring it to us, when we really needed it in the
> failed state. We then get the grief when we can't locate the cause.
>
> Personally I'd rather they just put the car onto the truck and brought
> it straight in.
>


OOH, yes, I know, the Daewoo brought to a friends garage with 'failed crank 
sensor'. it had a broken crank !

> OOH, yes, I know, the Daewoo brought to a friends garage with 'failed
crank
> sensor'. it had a broken crank !
>
>


Wowww...!  ...That is a big difference  :-)

Des
www.McKeller.com

Andrew Carr  writes

>Last night I went to a friend's house about 20 miles away when I got there I
>noticed that the headlamps didn't seem as bright as normal.
>
>Since it was a diesel escort van, I knew that the battery wasn't needed to
>run the engine but a fault would affect all the other systems.
>
>I stopped the engine and tried to restart it but the battery was as flat as
>a pancake.
>
[....]
>He the announces that the engine block has seized and wants to take it back
>to his firms garage for investigation and repair. I argue that the cost of
>that would be more that the vehicle is worth and since my breakdown recovery
>is a return to home policy could he take me there where I will rebuild the
>engine my self.
>
>Reluctantly I am eventually recovered to my home address.
>
>I put the batt on rapid 6 amp charge straight away and busy my self for the
>next hour, then try to start the engine, fires on first try and using a
>clamp meter I find that the alternator is only outputting 3 amps.
>
>And hour and forty pounds later I have a reconditioned alternator putting 20
>amps at idle into the batt from the "seized" engine.
>

8-(

I had a flat battery after I parked the car in my garage one day and as 
I got out I must have knocked the light switch into the 'Parked' 
position, easily done in the Mondeo..
(I only worked this out afterwards).

I didn't use the car for a couple of days and found a dead flat battery 
when I needed to go out.
Called the XX Homestart out and by the time I had rigged up a power 
supply to charge the battery he arrived.     He checked the battery, 
including the electrolyte level, before connecting his booster pack, and 
after a few minutes the car started.
He then carried out some tests for leakage current, pointed out that the 
indicator 'eye' still showed red, and strongly advised that I took the 
car on the road for half an hour.
I said that I would put it on trickle charge overnight and he said 
"Fine".

A very simple problem, but a thorough fix, IMHO.
-- 
Gordon Harris

> As many of you know, I work in a dealership, and yes, this is normal.
> Recovery drivers are mechanics that didn't make it. I tried to go into
> that myself, but turned down because I'm too qualified.
>

Total and utter bullshit.


> What is really annoying is when they find a car with an intermittant
> fault, and get it going, bring it to us, when we really needed it in the
> failed state. We then get the grief when we can't locate the cause.
>

That is the job of a roadside mechanic, to get the car going at the
roadside, even if it is only a temporary fix. Nearly every motorist would
prefer having their car running again, than have to be taken home on the
back of a truck.


> Personally I'd rather they just put the car onto the truck and brought
> it straight in.
>

What you, and what the car owner wants, may be different matters then. (The
car owner pays his membership for his benefit, not yours.)

"Andy Hewitt"  wrote in message
news:1h2q2jm.1x552wk12ushbxN%hairy.biker@spamcop.net...

> Andrew Carr  wrote:
>
> <Snipped Text>
>
> > And hour and forty pounds later I have a reconditioned alternator
putting 20
> > amps at idle into the batt from the "seized" engine.
> >
> > Has any one else encountered this.
>
> As many of you know, I work in a dealership, and yes, this is normal.
> Recovery drivers are mechanics that didn't make it. I tried to go into
> that myself, but turned down because I'm too qualified.
>
> We usually discard the report sheets and start again.
>
> What is really annoying is when they find a car with an intermittant
> fault, and get it going, bring it to us, when we really needed it in the
> failed state. We then get the grief when we can't locate the cause.
>
> Personally I'd rather they just put the car onto the truck and brought
> it straight in.
>
> --


same here, nothing worse trying to diagnose a fault that has been " fixed "

"SimonJ"  wrote in message
news:dg15kn$31h$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

> > As many of you know, I work in a dealership, and yes, this is normal.
> > Recovery drivers are mechanics that didn't make it. I tried to go into
> > that myself, but turned down because I'm too qualified.
> >
> Total and utter bullshit.
>
> > What is really annoying is when they find a car with an intermittant
> > fault, and get it going, bring it to us, when we really needed it in the
> > failed state. We then get the grief when we can't locate the cause.
> >
> That is the job of a roadside mechanic, to get the car going at the
> roadside, even if it is only a temporary fix. Nearly every motorist would
> prefer having their car running again, than have to be taken home on the
> back of a truck.
>
> > Personally I'd rather they just put the car onto the truck and brought
> > it straight in.
> >
> What you, and what the car owner wants, may be different matters then.
(The
> car owner pays his membership for his benefit, not yours.)


the car is taken back to the customers home address, they are stuck as they
have no home start or they don't want to pay for a recovery to the garage
the next day, seen it a few times, also if the fault is " fixed " at the
road side be it temporary or not & the customer comes in & says can you fix
it & you cant find it, this is where you get grief from the customer as you
looking for a " non-existent " fault !

so more helpful to us mechanics/technicians to have a car presented with the
fault.

Andrew Carr wrote:

> 
[...]
> 
> I put the batt on rapid 6 amp charge straight away and busy my self for the
> next hour, then try to start the engine, fires on first try and using a
> clamp meter I find that the alternator is only outputting 3 amps.
> 
> And hour and forty pounds later I have a reconditioned alternator putting 20
> amps at idle into the batt from the "seized" engine.


Just that I'm not overly keen on recon alternators. Tried this once on
my then Fiat Croma. I was a student, so I tried to save money. The alter
included fitting and off I went.

It lasted about a year and failed spectacularly when I was driving up
through france and had to reach a ferry the same Sunday evening. The
bearing on the alternator failed, the first thing I noticed was severe
overheating of the engine, then the alter belt shredded to smithereens.
I had to use a recovery service from France, but they did a good job,
sourced an brand new alter from a depot (it was still Sunday), it didn't
fit, but the resourceful French mechanic produced an extension wheel so
that the belt would fit. Lasted years after that no probs. All in all a 
very good service.

SimonJ wrote:

> 
> > As many of you know, I work in a dealership, and yes, this is normal.
> > Recovery drivers are mechanics that didn't make it. I tried to go into
> > that myself, but turned down because I'm too qualified.
> >
> Total and utter bullshit.
> 
> > What is really annoying is when they find a car with an intermittant
> > fault, and get it going, bring it to us, when we really needed it in the
> > failed state. We then get the grief when we can't locate the cause.
> >
> That is the job of a roadside mechanic, to get the car going at the
> roadside, even if it is only a temporary fix. Nearly every motorist would
> prefer having their car running again, than have to be taken home on the
> back of a truck.
> 
> > Personally I'd rather they just put the car onto the truck and brought
> > it straight in.
> >
> What you, and what the car owner wants, may be different matters then. (The
> car owner pays his membership for his benefit, not yours.)


I quite agree. Get the car home where it's safe, either by itself or on a
truck. Then put on the kettle and consider your options.

In article ,
   Johannes  wrote:

> > And hour and forty pounds later I have a reconditioned alternator
> > putting 20 amps at idle into the batt from the "seized" engine.

> Just that I'm not overly keen on recon alternators. Tried this once on
> my then Fiat Croma. I was a student, so I tried to save money. The alter
> included fitting and off I went.


Like as everything, you gets what you pay for. A maker's recon, or one
from a reputable maker, should be every bit as good as new, and no more
likely to fail. But some of the cheaper ones are little more than cleaned
secondhand ones.

-- 
*I got a sweater for Christmas. I really wanted a screamer or a moaner*

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

> 
> In article ,
>    Johannes  wrote:
> > > And hour and forty pounds later I have a reconditioned alternator
> > > putting 20 amps at idle into the batt from the "seized" engine.
> 
> > Just that I'm not overly keen on recon alternators. Tried this once on
> > my then Fiat Croma. I was a student, so I tried to save money. The alter
> > included fitting and off I went.
> 
> Like as everything, you gets what you pay for. A maker's recon, or one
> from a reputable maker, should be every bit as good as new, and no more
> likely to fail. But some of the cheaper ones are little more than cleaned
> secondhand ones.


I did pay something like half price, that is what you would expect for a
reconditioned. Anything more, and you might as well fit a new one. 

PS. I did catch the Calais to Dover ferry later that evening. Really
amazing considering stranded in the afternoon in France with a broken
alternator. I could perhaps have driven a for while on the accumulator,
but I would need driving lights in the evening and surely that would
have drained the accumulator. The motorway system in France have gates
and steel fences since you pay. However the recovery driver passed
through everywhere, either by key to open gates or by a nudge and wink
to gate keepers. Quite an experience.

>> I put the batt on rapid 6 amp charge straight away and busy my self for 
>> the
>> next hour, then try to start the engine, fires on first try and using a
>> clamp meter I find that the alternator is only outputting 3 amps.
>>
>> And hour and forty pounds later I have a reconditioned alternator putting 
>> 20
>> amps at idle into the batt from the "seized" engine.
>>
>> Has any one else encountered this.
>
> No, I haven't, but I bet it happens a lot.  I don't trust any monkey to
> work on my car!


But you trust your Dad's work a lot of the time.....

-- 
Peter

"You're not a real UKRCMer until you've had your big end bearings go."

"Andy Hewitt"  wrote in message 
news:1h2q2jm.1x552wk12ushbxN%hairy.biker@spamcop.net...

> Andrew Carr  wrote:
>
> <Snipped Text>
>
>> And hour and forty pounds later I have a reconditioned alternator putting 
>> 20
>> amps at idle into the batt from the "seized" engine.
>>
>> Has any one else encountered this.
>
> As many of you know, I work in a dealership, and yes, this is normal.
> Recovery drivers are mechanics that didn't make it. I tried to go into
> that myself, but turned down because I'm too qualified.
>
> We usually discard the report sheets and start again.


Best course of action. Although they normally provide some amusement when 
you really do find out what's wrong.
My most memorable ones being the 'collapsed wheel bearing', where I removed 
the wheel trim and asked the recovery mechanic if the wheel nuts should 
possibly be attached to something.
Or the brand new transit that got towed in with no crank, with diagnosis as 
an 'earth fault', because the low brake fluid warning light came on when you 
turned the ignition key to crank. All transits do that, and you could 
forgive someone who'd never driven a transit for not knowing, but the 
recovery vehicle was a transit....
That turned out to be dodgy ECU.


> What is really annoying is when they find a car with an intermittant
> fault, and get it going, bring it to us, when we really needed it in the
> failed state. We then get the grief when we can't locate the cause.
>
> Personally I'd rather they just put the car onto the truck and brought
> it straight in.


Been there, had that problem, usually find out the temporary repair is no 
where near the place they've wrote on the sheet.

"Moray Cuthill"  wrote in message
news:43247c44$1@news.greennet.net...

>
> "Andy Hewitt"  wrote in message
> news:1h2q2jm.1x552wk12ushbxN%hairy.biker@spamcop.net...
> > Andrew Carr  wrote:
> >
> > <Snipped Text>
> >
> >> And hour and forty pounds later I have a reconditioned alternator
putting
> >> 20
> >> amps at idle into the batt from the "seized" engine.
> >>
> >> Has any one else encountered this.
> >
> > As many of you know, I work in a dealership, and yes, this is normal.
> > Recovery drivers are mechanics that didn't make it. I tried to go into
> > that myself, but turned down because I'm too qualified.
> >
> > We usually discard the report sheets and start again.
>
> Best course of action. Although they normally provide some amusement when
> you really do find out what's wrong.
> My most memorable ones being the 'collapsed wheel bearing', where I
removed
> the wheel trim and asked the recovery mechanic if the wheel nuts should
> possibly be attached to something.
> Or the brand new transit that got towed in with no crank, with diagnosis
as
> an 'earth fault', because the low brake fluid warning light came on when
you
> turned the ignition key to crank. All transits do that, and you could
> forgive someone who'd never driven a transit for not knowing, but the
> recovery vehicle was a transit....
> That turned out to be dodgy ECU.
>
> > What is really annoying is when they find a car with an intermittant
> > fault, and get it going, bring it to us, when we really needed it in the
> > failed state. We then get the grief when we can't locate the cause.
> >
> > Personally I'd rather they just put the car onto the truck and brought
> > it straight in.
>
> Been there, had that problem, usually find out the temporary repair is no
> where near the place they've wrote on the sheet.


lol very true.

"reg"  wrote in message
news:dg17ai$ldp$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
> "SimonJ"  wrote in message
> news:dg15kn$31h$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> > > As many of you know, I work in a dealership, and yes, this is normal.
> > > Recovery drivers are mechanics that didn't make it. I tried to go into
> > > that myself, but turned down because I'm too qualified.
> > >
> > Total and utter bullshit.
> >
> > > What is really annoying is when they find a car with an intermittant
> > > fault, and get it going, bring it to us, when we really needed it in
the
> > > failed state. We then get the grief when we can't locate the cause.
> > >
> > That is the job of a roadside mechanic, to get the car going at the
> > roadside, even if it is only a temporary fix. Nearly every motorist
would
> > prefer having their car running again, than have to be taken home on the
> > back of a truck.
> >
> > > Personally I'd rather they just put the car onto the truck and brought
> > > it straight in.
> > >
> > What you, and what the car owner wants, may be different matters then.
> (The
> > car owner pays his membership for his benefit, not yours.)
>
> the car is taken back to the customers home address, they are stuck as
they
> have no home start or they don't want to pay for a recovery to the garage
> the next day, seen it a few times, also if the fault is " fixed " at the
> road side be it temporary or not & the customer comes in & says can you
fix
> it & you cant find it, this is where you get grief from the customer as
you
> looking for a " non-existent " fault !
>
> so more helpful to us mechanics/technicians to have a car presented with
the
> fault.
>
>

That may be so, but like I said, the member pays for the service, and it is
for his benefit, not yours. If he wants his car fixing there and then, that
is what is done, if possible.

Yup - had a breakdown some time ago with a caravan - coupling came adrift, 
front dropped onto brake lever and bent it so brakes would no longer work 
while towing..

Had R*C specialist membership for caravanners

Full facts given

First recovery man arrived to couple the van up to his tow ball - not a good 
idea under the circumstances

second man came to put the van onto his low loader - was going to put van on 
loader then lower the caravan corner steadies to hold it level. Seemed a 
little surprised when I pointed out that if he did this, by the time he had 
gone over a few bumps (think about it!) - my faulty coupling would have 
turned into a written off caravan (corner steadies pounding on moving 
platform would very quickly have bent the body work.)

After 5 hours - yes 5 hours - of this (on the main Bristol road in 
Northfield, Birmingham - Gave up while waiting for no. 3 to come along. He 
must have got it right - the van was in the repairers the next day, still in 
one piece (apart from the coupling and brake lever)

NB very friendly insurance brokers, sadly no longer there, supplied self, 
wife, kids with shelter etc.

"Andrew Carr"  wrote in message 
news:k7WdnZ2dnZ3V0TrJnZ2dneLyvt6dnZ2dRVnyoJ2dnZ0@pipex.net...

> Last night I went to a friend's house about 20 miles away when I got there 
> I
> noticed that the headlamps didn't seem as bright as normal.
>
> Since it was a diesel escort van, I knew that the battery wasn't needed to
> run the engine but a fault would affect all the other systems.
>
> I stopped the engine and tried to restart it but the battery was as flat 
> as
> a pancake.
> Since I didn't have tools (invitation to have the van broken into) and my
> friend is a non-driver is naturally didn't have a batt charger decided to
> wait until morning before worrying about it (staying over after a few
> beers). But my initial diagnosis was that the alternator had gone bad and
> wasn't outputting enough amperage (but enough to turn off dash light)
>
> In morning called recovery firm, who then sent subcontracted local firms 
> low
> loader an hour later. After describing fault I watched him measure the
> battery voltage (10v) then he went on the check the oil (just under the 
> min
> mark) the water and the brake fluid (whilst I'm thinking I've got a flat
> battery, the fluids have nothing to do with that).
>
> Then he tries one of those small booster packs with the small rechargeable
> battery in them. He connects it up and tells me to try the ignition 
> straight
> away - nothing happens.
>
> Plan B: heavier jump leads from recovery truck are connected up, try
> straight away -nothing
>
> Plan C: heavy leads and booster pack together, try straight away -nothing.
>
> I suggest that we wait a few minutes to transfer a little charge into my
> batt as I know the immobiliser (which also controls the starter motor) is
> very intolerant of a low battery voltage.
>
> He then gives me the "I'm the mechanic, you know nothing" look
>
> He the announces that the engine block has seized and wants to take it 
> back
> to his firms garage for investigation and repair. I argue that the cost of
> that would be more that the vehicle is worth and since my breakdown 
> recovery
> is a return to home policy could he take me there where I will rebuild the
> engine my self.
>
> Reluctantly I am eventually recovered to my home address.
>
> I put the batt on rapid 6 amp charge straight away and busy my self for 
> the
> next hour, then try to start the engine, fires on first try and using a
> clamp meter I find that the alternator is only outputting 3 amps.
>
> And hour and forty pounds later I have a reconditioned alternator putting 
> 20
> amps at idle into the batt from the "seized" engine.
>
> Has any one else encountered this.
>
>
> 

Johannes  writes

>
>I quite agree. Get the car home where it's safe, either by itself or on a
>truck. Then put on the kettle and consider your options.


At least that way it doesn't lose the wheels and radio and get the 
windows smashed in.
-- 
Gordon Harris

In news:k7WdnZ2dnZ3V0TrJnZ2dneLyvt6dnZ2dRVnyoJ2dnZ0@pipex.net,
Andrew Carr  scribed for want of a better word:

> Last night I went to a friend's house about 20 miles away when I got
> there I noticed that the headlamps didn't seem as bright as normal.
>
> Since it was a diesel escort van, I knew that the battery wasn't
> needed to run the engine but a fault would affect all the other
> systems.
>
> I stopped the engine and tried to restart it but the battery was as
> flat as a pancake.
> Since I didn't have tools (invitation to have the van broken into)
> and my friend is a non-driver is naturally didn't have a batt charger
> decided to wait until morning before worrying about it (staying over
> after a few beers). But my initial diagnosis was that the alternator
> had gone bad and wasn't outputting enough amperage (but enough to
> turn off dash light)
>
> In morning called recovery firm, who then sent subcontracted local
> firms low loader an hour later. After describing fault I watched him
> measure the battery voltage (10v) then he went on the check the oil
> (just under the min mark) the water and the brake fluid (whilst I'm
> thinking I've got a flat battery, the fluids have nothing to do with
> that).
>
> Then he tries one of those small booster packs with the small
> rechargeable battery in them. He connects it up and tells me to try
> the ignition straight away - nothing happens.
>
> Plan B: heavier jump leads from recovery truck are connected up, try
> straight away -nothing
>
> Plan C: heavy leads and booster pack together, try straight away
> -nothing.
>
> I suggest that we wait a few minutes to transfer a little charge into
> my batt as I know the immobiliser (which also controls the starter
> motor) is very intolerant of a low battery voltage.
>
> He then gives me the "I'm the mechanic, you know nothing" look
>
> He the announces that the engine block has seized and wants to take
> it back to his firms garage for investigation and repair. I argue
> that the cost of that would be more that the vehicle is worth and
> since my breakdown recovery is a return to home policy could he take
> me there where I will rebuild the engine my self.
>
> Reluctantly I am eventually recovered to my home address.
>
> I put the batt on rapid 6 amp charge straight away and busy my self
> for the next hour, then try to start the engine, fires on first try
> and using a clamp meter I find that the alternator is only outputting
> 3 amps.
>
> And hour and forty pounds later I have a reconditioned alternator
> putting 20 amps at idle into the batt from the "seized" engine.
>
> Has any one else encountered this.


Everything from good to bad
Engine stopped whilst on way to company Christmas dance, BB Van arrived 
could not be fixed, where did I want towed to, (rapid calculation Xmas dance 
arrive on time but no way of getting car fixed next morning, or Office near 
Xmas dance, err Office please ) Arrived at office carpark dumped car and 
Taxi to Dance next morning, no garages available so a Knowlegeble collegue 
had a look, opened stuck points and Idrove  it for another two years
2. Pulled out to overtake a lorry on the motorway (week old Pug206) suddenly 
nothing and slowed to a stop in the fast lane, The lorry driver held up the 
traffic whilst I managed to pass, by coasting then using the starter motor 
to get on hard shoulder
Royal Aircraft Commander arrived and a plastic accelorator link had 
shattered he used bits and bobs of old bolts and connectors, and I was 
mobile again

3. Brand new Ford Fiesta, would never start I pushed it more miles than I 
driven it, BB, Royal Aircraft Comm etc gave up, I was on holiday in the 
lakes whilst all this pushing was going on, a small local garage had a look 
for me fitted a new dist cap to replace the brandnew cracked one, and never 
had a problem since

I work in electronics myself and we all remember the bad problems, it is not 
bad engineers just mystery problems that someone else notices, except for 
the stuck points I will go with that


-- 
Kills all threads dead Jimbo

> Yup - had a breakdown some time ago with a caravan - coupling came adrift,
> front dropped onto brake lever and bent it so brakes would no longer work
> while towing..
>
> Had R*C specialist membership for caravanners
>
> Full facts given
>
> First recovery man arrived to couple the van up to his tow ball - not a
good
> idea under the circumstances
>

Depending on why the coupling came off, this is a perfectly sound way of
moving it. 99% of uncouplings are down to the coupling not being fastened
properly, in this case, if there was no fault with the coupling then if
would be fine to move it this way.


> second man came to put the van onto his low loader - was going to put van
on
> loader then lower the caravan corner steadies to hold it level. Seemed a
> little surprised when I pointed out that if he did this, by the time he
had
> gone over a few bumps (think about it!) - my faulty coupling would have
> turned into a written off caravan (corner steadies pounding on moving
> platform would very quickly have bent the body work.)
>

I think you might find that the corner steadies are attached to the chassis,
not the bodywork.

reg  wrote:

<Snipped Text>


> > What you, and what the car owner wants, may be different matters then.
> (The
> > car owner pays his membership for his benefit, not yours.)
> 
> the car is taken back to the customers home address, they are stuck as they
> have no home start or they don't want to pay for a recovery to the garage
> the next day, seen it a few times, also if the fault is " fixed " at the
> road side be it temporary or not & the customer comes in & says can you fix
> it & you cant find it, this is where you get grief from the customer as you
> looking for a " non-existent " fault !
> 
> so more helpful to us mechanics/technicians to have a car presented with the
> fault.


Exactly.

-- 
Andy Hewitt **  FAF#1, (Ex-OSOS#5) - FJ1200 ABS
Honda Civic: Windows free zone (Mac G5 Dual Processor)
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/thehewitts2/index.htm
(updated Aug 28 2005)

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 00:42:46 +0100, "Andrew Carr"
 wrote:



>
>Has any one else encountered this.
>
>

No. I'm sure the knowledge of recovery drivers does vary (my "tame
mechanic" is an ex-AA man), but your experience shows that it depends
who they work for, and in this case it seems he had a vested interest in
"doing major work".

I have never had anything less than excellent service from the Green
Flag drivers who have recovered various cars of mine. From the broken
alternator belt on a 4Runner (he didn't even bother to look, just
recovered the car home - it's not a roadside job even if he had one), to
the punctured fuel line on a Landcruiser (recovered to home _then_
diagnosed the fault - as if he'd got me going and it failed again I
couldn't be recovered twice fo the same fault). The fuel pump on the
Fiat 126 (he went off to see if he could find a scrapper in his yard),
the fan belt on the Riley Elf (took me back to his yard and fitted a
belt).
The only bad experience was in France - ever seen the size of their
recovery trucks? Huge HGV, driver barely spoke English. Car on the back,
caravan on tow, set off down the equivalent of B-roads at 56mph,
bouncing my poor caravan about, stopping for fags en route. Scary. And
BTW don't break down during the lunch break (which is two hours in
France)! After many phone calls where they supposedly couldn't find us
(white MPV & caravan by side of main road, location described precisely)
they picked us up some 5 hours after our initial call 8-((
-- 
Regards,  Chris    (Please take out my car to reply by email)     
----1961 Austin A40 Farina----1966 Triumph Herald Estate---
---1967 Riley Elf---1965 Hillman Minx---1969 Morris Minor--
-1972 Mini Clubman estate--1957 Standard 8--1979 Ford Capri
    ********** Please don't email in HTML! **********

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 00:49:29 +0000 (UTC), "SimonJ"  wrote:


>
>> Yup - had a breakdown some time ago with a caravan - coupling came adrift,
>> front dropped onto brake lever and bent it so brakes would no longer work
>> while towing..
>>
>> Had R*C specialist membership for caravanners
>>
>> Full facts given
>>
>> First recovery man arrived to couple the van up to his tow ball - not a
>good
>> idea under the circumstances
>>
>Depending on why the coupling came off, this is a perfectly sound way of
>moving it. 99% of uncouplings are down to the coupling not being fastened
>properly, in this case, if there was no fault with the coupling then if
>would be fine to move it this way.
>
>> second man came to put the van onto his low loader - was going to put van
>on
>> loader then lower the caravan corner steadies to hold it level. Seemed a
>> little surprised when I pointed out that if he did this, by the time he
>had
>> gone over a few bumps (think about it!) - my faulty coupling would have
>> turned into a written off caravan (corner steadies pounding on moving
>> platform would very quickly have bent the body work.)
>>
>I think you might find that the corner steadies are attached to the chassis,
>not the bodywork.
>

Have you looked under a caravan then? I can assure you my front corner
steadies are bolted through the floor, not to the chassis. And caravan
floors are made of notoriously thin plywood. The rears are attached to
the chassis, but these too are not particularly strong, indeed some vans
with aluminium chassis have a known tendency to crack. Some
manufacturers used to say that towing with a 4x4 would void the chassis
warranty!
-- 
Regards,  Chris    (Please take out my car to reply by email)     
----1961 Austin A40 Farina----1966 Triumph Herald Estate---
---1967 Riley Elf---1965 Hillman Minx---1969 Morris Minor--
-1972 Mini Clubman estate--1957 Standard 8--1979 Ford Capri
    ********** Please don't email in HTML! **********

You cannot please all of the people all of the time, only some of the people 
some of the time.

Not everyone wants taking straight to a garage without even lifting the 
bonnet, likewise some do not want their cars touching at the 
roadside....just shipping to a garage.

Think about what it would be like if AA/RAC/Green Flag/Britannia/Direct line 
etc closed.or did not work 24/7.

At least you have an option when you are stuck and want some help.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 22:47:16 +0100, "Kippers"
 wrote:


>You cannot please all of the people all of the time, only some of the people 
>some of the time.
>
>Not everyone wants taking straight to a garage without even lifting the 
>bonnet, likewise some do not want their cars touching at the 
>roadside....just shipping to a garage.


I wouldn't want that... home is the only place I'd want recovering to.
If I can't do it myself (rare), I know a man who can ;-)

>
>Think about what it would be like if AA/RAC/Green Flag/Britannia/Direct line 
>etc closed.or did not work 24/7.


Like France I'd guess...

>
>At least you have an option when you are stuck and want some help. 
>

That's what I pay for.
-- 
Regards,  Chris    (Please take out my car to reply by email)     
----1961 Austin A40 Farina----1966 Triumph Herald Estate---
---1967 Riley Elf---1965 Hillman Minx---1969 Morris Minor--
-1972 Mini Clubman estate--1957 Standard 8--1979 Ford Capri
    ********** Please don't email in HTML! **********