I'm told the boiler heat exchanger is partly blocked, laeding to the
flame coming out sideways, licking round the edges of the the
combustion chamber. Is there any way to confirm/deny this, as visually
I cant see anything? The exchanger itself is not visible.

Last time I saw it alight through the viewing window, it looked fine,
with rows of neat upright blue flames.


thank you, 
NT

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
bigcat@meeow.co.uk   wrote:


> I'm told the boiler heat exchanger is partly blocked, laeding to the
> flame coming out sideways, licking round the edges of the the
> combustion chamber. Is there any way to confirm/deny this, as visually
> I cant see anything? The exchanger itself is not visible.
>
> Last time I saw it alight through the viewing window, it looked fine,
> with rows of neat upright blue flames.
>
>
> thank you,
> NT


What colour are the flames - are they still blue - or are they yellow? If
the latter, there could be some crud in the burner rail, interfering with
the proper gas/air mixture.

Otherwise, it sounds as if either the heat exchanger is sooted up, or
there's a problem with the flue. What boiler is it?
-- 
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

Set Square wrote:

> In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
> bigcat@meeow.co.uk   wrote:

> > I'm told the boiler heat exchanger is partly blocked, laeding to the
> > flame coming out sideways, licking round the edges of the the
> > combustion chamber. Is there any way to confirm/deny this, as visually
> > I cant see anything? The exchanger itself is not visible.
> >
> > Last time I saw it alight through the viewing window, it looked fine,
> > with rows of neat upright blue flames.
> >
> >
> > thank you,
> > NT
>
> What colour are the flames - are they still blue - or are they yellow? If
> the latter, there could be some crud in the burner rail, interfering with
> the proper gas/air mixture.


blue thankfully. There is a 3mm tide mark of what looks like well burnt
paint round the outside near the bottom of the combustion cavity, which
he says shows its burning, and the metal cover on the pilot light is
discoloured. Also theres a light scattering of white ash on the base of
the thing. Thats the evidence. I cant help being less than 100%
convinced, and I do need to know whats what on this and act on it
quickly.



> Otherwise, it sounds as if either the heat exchanger is sooted up, or
> there's a problem with the flue. What boiler is it?


Balanced flue glow worm fuel saver, quite an old one, may well be
1970s. Looks very basic, no protection mechanisms of any kind as far as
I could see, just a gas solenoid, pilot light with ignition and
thermocouple, and a knob to adjust heat output.

And I gather it may be not sealed, I had assumed it was. It looks like
a sealed box, but the cover just presses on, and could be better.

If its nothing more than soot in the exchanger, can it just be poked
clean?


Thanks!

NT

wrote in message 
news:1126186821.254316.316070@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> I'm told the boiler heat exchanger is partly blocked, laeding to the
> flame coming out sideways, licking round the edges of the the
> combustion chamber. Is there any way to confirm/deny this, as visually
> I cant see anything? The exchanger itself is not visible.
>
> Last time I saw it alight through the viewing window, it looked fine,
> with rows of neat upright blue flames.
>
>


An old Elan is it?
The fins get clogged with crud and soot then even though the burner operates 
fine the flame/hot gases cannot get through the fins so they lick out around 
the skirt of the combustion chamber. Easy to see when the outer casing is 
removed. Cleaning the fins properly is a very tedious job requiring scraping 
every single fin and passage:-(

John wrote:

>  wrote in message
> news:1126186821.254316.316070@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > I'm told the boiler heat exchanger is partly blocked, laeding to the
> > flame coming out sideways, licking round the edges of the the
> > combustion chamber. Is there any way to confirm/deny this, as visually
> > I cant see anything? The exchanger itself is not visible.
> >
> > Last time I saw it alight through the viewing window, it looked fine,
> > with rows of neat upright blue flames.
> >
> >
>
> An old Elan is it?
> The fins get clogged with crud and soot then even though the burner operates
> fine the flame/hot gases cannot get through the fins so they lick out around
> the skirt of the combustion chamber. Easy to see when the outer casing is
> removed. Cleaning the fins properly is a very tedious job requiring scraping
> every single fin and passage:-(


Yes, sounds like an exact description. Its a Glow worm, probably 1970s.
If the heat exes are cleanable I'm up for doing it, will be far quicker
and cheaper than a new boiler.


NT

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
bigcat@meeow.co.uk   wrote:


>
> If its nothing more than soot in the exchanger, can it just be poked
> clean?
>

I imagine that a certain amount of dismantling will be required.

I used to have to clean an old Baxi Bermuda from time to time. That had a
cast iron heat exchanger, in two halves - like chunky chocolate bars facing
each other. You had to slide out all the control bits - complete with burner
rail - from under the heat exchanger, and then use an over-size bottle brush
up the middle of the heat exchanger to remove all the soot.

Yours is almost certainly constructed differently, but the general
principles will be similar.
-- 
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 10:09:33 -0700, bigcat wrote:


> John wrote:
>>  wrote in message
>> news:1126186821.254316.316070@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> > I'm told the boiler heat exchanger is partly blocked, laeding to the
>> > flame coming out sideways, licking round the edges of the the
>> > combustion chamber. Is there any way to confirm/deny this, as visually
>> > I cant see anything? The exchanger itself is not visible.
>> >
>> > Last time I saw it alight through the viewing window, it looked fine,
>> > with rows of neat upright blue flames.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> An old Elan is it?
>> The fins get clogged with crud and soot then even though the burner operates
>> fine the flame/hot gases cannot get through the fins so they lick out around
>> the skirt of the combustion chamber. Easy to see when the outer casing is
>> removed. Cleaning the fins properly is a very tedious job requiring scraping
>> every single fin and passage:-(
> 
> Yes, sounds like an exact description. Its a Glow worm, probably 1970s.
> If the heat exes are cleanable I'm up for doing it, will be far quicker
> and cheaper than a new boiler.



I am concerned that the cover just pushes into place it should be room
sealed.  You say a balanced flue i.e. a largish rectangular metal terminal
on the wall outside at about the same height as the boiler itself?
If so the cover should be held by four threaded studs (on the cover) which
are secured by four wing nuts at the rear of the boiler. 

If the flames are blue then cleaning out the air heat exhchanger should
fix everything.


-- 
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk 
Gas fitting FAQ  http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

>I'm told the boiler heat exchanger is partly blocked,


Who was it that told you? British Gas?

Ed Sirett wrote:

> On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 10:09:33 -0700, bigcat wrote:

> I am concerned that the cover just pushes into place it should be room
> sealed.


Thats what I thought. There is certainly an attempt at a seal, but
whether its airtight I dont know. The front of the boiler, ie just the
front sheet of the outer casing, not the other 3 or 4 sides as well,
just presses home into a rubber strip round the edge. Thats it, no
screws, nuts, etc. It is old, 70s or maybe early 80s. I suppose for all
I know it might even be older.



> You say a balanced flue i.e. a largish rectangular metal terminal
> on the wall outside at about the same height as the boiler itself?


yes, definitely balanced.


> If so the cover should be held by four threaded studs (on the cover) which
> are secured by four wing nuts at the rear of the boiler.


Its nothing like that.



> If the flames are blue then cleaning out the air heat exhchanger should
> fix everything.


Ooh :)
OK, how to do this: drain system, figure out how to remove exchanger,
figure out how to clear it and reassemble. Then if it works ok, get a
retest before using it.

thank you, I was hoping you might give some input :)


NT

In message , 
bigcat@meeow.co.uk writes

>John wrote:
>>  wrote in message
>> news:1126186821.254316.316070@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> > I'm told the boiler heat exchanger is partly blocked, laeding to the
>> > flame coming out sideways, licking round the edges of the the
>> > combustion chamber. Is there any way to confirm/deny this, as visually
>> > I cant see anything? The exchanger itself is not visible.
>> >
>> > Last time I saw it alight through the viewing window, it looked fine,
>> > with rows of neat upright blue flames.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> An old Elan is it?
>> The fins get clogged with crud and soot then even though the burner operates
>> fine the flame/hot gases cannot get through the fins so they lick out around
>> the skirt of the combustion chamber. Easy to see when the outer casing is
>> removed. Cleaning the fins properly is a very tedious job requiring scraping
>> every single fin and passage:-(
>
>Yes, sounds like an exact description. Its a Glow worm, probably 1970s.
>If the heat exes are cleanable I'm up for doing it, will be far quicker
>and cheaper than a new boiler.
>

Wire brush

-- 
geoff

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
bigcat@meeow.co.uk   wrote:


> OK, how to do this: drain system, figure out how to remove exchanger,
> figure out how to clear it and reassemble. Then if it works ok, get a
> retest before using it.
>

I'd be very surprised if you have to drain the system and actually remove
the heat exchanger to clean it. Most boilers are designed in such as way
that routine servicing can be carried out without draining down.
-- 
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 12:41:18 -0700, bigcat wrote:


> Ed Sirett wrote:
>> On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 10:09:33 -0700, bigcat wrote:
> 
>> I am concerned that the cover just pushes into place it should be room
>> sealed.
> 
> Thats what I thought. There is certainly an attempt at a seal, but
> whether its airtight I dont know. The front of the boiler, ie just the
> front sheet of the outer casing, not the other 3 or 4 sides as well,
> just presses home into a rubber strip round the edge. Thats it, no
> screws, nuts, etc. It is old, 70s or maybe early 80s. I suppose for all
> I know it might even be older.
> 
> 
>> You say a balanced flue i.e. a largish rectangular metal terminal
>> on the wall outside at about the same height as the boiler itself?
> 
> yes, definitely balanced.
> 
>> If so the cover should be held by four threaded studs (on the cover) which
>> are secured by four wing nuts at the rear of the boiler.
> 
> Its nothing like that.
> 
> 
>> If the flames are blue then cleaning out the air heat exchanger should
>> fix everything.
> 
> Ooh :)
> OK, how to do this: drain system, figure out how to remove exchanger,
> figure out how to clear it and reassemble. Then if it works ok, get a
> retest before using it.
> 

Nothing quite so drastic. You should be able to clean out the gas side of
the heat exchanger without removing it from the boiler, and you won't
need to touch the water side at all. An over-grown bottle brush available
from some boiler spares shops/plumbers' merchants will help. 

However given the uncertainties of the safety of this boiler and your
modest experience I recommend you get someone to look it over even if
you do the cleaning out yourself. 

I always think the term 'Space Saver' saver has become ironic as it is
(now) one of the largest wall mounted boilers you will find.

-- 
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk 
Gas fitting FAQ  http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

Mr Fuxit wrote:


> >I'm told the boiler heat exchanger is partly blocked,
>
> Who was it that told you? British Gas?


no, I would touch them. (I've yet to really confirm it is.) But yes the
guy who did it quoted me for a new boiler... call me a bit cynical.


NT

Ed Sirett wrote:

> On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 12:41:18 -0700, bigcat wrote:

> >> If the flames are blue then cleaning out the air heat exchanger should
> >> fix everything.
> >
> > Ooh :)
> > OK, how to do this: drain system, figure out how to remove exchanger,
> > figure out how to clear it and reassemble. Then if it works ok, get a
> > retest before using it.
> >
> Nothing quite so drastic. You should be able to clean out the gas side of
> the heat exchanger without removing it from the boiler, and you won't
> need to touch the water side at all. An over-grown bottle brush available
> from some boiler spares shops/plumbers' merchants will help.


nice one :)



> However given the uncertainties of the safety of this boiler and your
> modest experience I recommend you get someone to look it over even if
> you do the cleaning out yourself.


Oh I will.

The only problem is I cant see what Im doing, cant actually see the
heat exchanger at the top at all. And since I've never worked on one I
dont know what size the gaps are in the exchanger, now how deep they go
- but I'll see what I can do, starting with a little bottle brush
tomorrow, and upgrading to a plumbing merchant one.

Thanks.


NT

John  wrote:

> 
>  wrote in message 
> news:1126186821.254316.316070@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> I'm told the boiler heat exchanger is partly blocked, laeding to the
>> flame coming out sideways, licking round the edges of the the
>> combustion chamber. Is there any way to confirm/deny this, as visually
>> I cant see anything? The exchanger itself is not visible.
>>
>> Last time I saw it alight through the viewing window, it looked fine,
>> with rows of neat upright blue flames.
>>
>>
> 
> An old Elan is it?
> The fins get clogged with crud and soot then even though the burner operates 
> fine the flame/hot gases cannot get through the fins so they lick out around 
> the skirt of the combustion chamber. Easy to see when the outer casing is 
> removed. Cleaning the fins properly is a very tedious job requiring scraping 
> every single fin and passage:-(


If it can be removed, what about a pressure washer?

bigcat@meeow.co.uk wrote:


> Balanced flue glow worm fuel saver, quite an old one, may well be
> 1970s. Looks very basic, no protection mechanisms of any kind as far as
> I could see, just a gas solenoid, pilot light with ignition and
> thermocouple, and a knob to adjust heat output.


I had one of those... as you say quite basic.


> And I gather it may be not sealed, I had assumed it was. It looks like
> a sealed box, but the cover just presses on, and could be better.


IIRC it is sealed, although I have a slight recollection of there being 
something a little unusual about them that was mentioned by (possibly) 
Ed in the past - needless to say can't find the post now.


> If its nothing more than soot in the exchanger, can it just be poked
> clean?


Depends on if it the soot that is holding it together I guess ;-)

-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

"Ian Stirling"  wrote in message 
news:4320caf2$0$17506$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...

SNIP

>> An old Elan is it?
>> The fins get clogged with crud and soot then even though the burner 
>> operates
>> fine the flame/hot gases cannot get through the fins so they lick out 
>> around
>> the skirt of the combustion chamber. Easy to see when the outer casing is
>> removed. Cleaning the fins properly is a very tedious job requiring 
>> scraping
>> every single fin and passage:-(
>
> If it can be removed, what about a pressure washer?


Well yes it "can" be removed but to clean the dry side of a heat exchanger 
even tediously its a lot less taxing than draining down, removing the heat 
exchanger, pressure washing it, reassembling only to find the old seals are 
brittle and irreplaceable, thus having to chuck it away and replace it 
anyway is a lot more than any tedium in cleaning. Of course you "may" be 
able to do the job in situ but dont forget the damage you may cause to 
refractory parts. with the high pressure jet.

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 14:58:41 -0700, bigcat wrote:


> Ed Sirett wrote:
>> On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 12:41:18 -0700, bigcat wrote:
> 
>> >> If the flames are blue then cleaning out the air heat exchanger should
>> >> fix everything.
>> >
>> > Ooh :)
>> > OK, how to do this: drain system, figure out how to remove exchanger,
>> > figure out how to clear it and reassemble. Then if it works ok, get a
>> > retest before using it.
>> >
>> Nothing quite so drastic. You should be able to clean out the gas side of
>> the heat exchanger without removing it from the boiler, and you won't
>> need to touch the water side at all. An over-grown bottle brush available
>> from some boiler spares shops/plumbers' merchants will help.
> 
> nice one :)
> 
> 
>> However given the uncertainties of the safety of this boiler and your
>> modest experience I recommend you get someone to look it over even if
>> you do the cleaning out yourself.
> 
> Oh I will.
> 
> The only problem is I cant see what Im doing, cant actually see the
> heat exchanger at the top at all. And since I've never worked on one I
> dont know what size the gaps are in the exchanger, now how deep they go
> - but I'll see what I can do, starting with a little bottle brush
> tomorrow, and upgrading to a plumbing merchant one.



Usually there is some sort of cowl over the top of the heat exchanger
which is removable, typically by a few screws and/or wing nuts. When this
is removed then the top of the heat exchanger is complete exposed. 



-- 
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk 
Gas fitting FAQ  http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

bigcat@meeow.co.uk wrote:

> I'm told the boiler heat exchanger is partly blocked, laeding to the
> flame coming out sideways, licking round the edges of the the
> combustion chamber. Is there any way to confirm/deny this, as visually
> I cant see anything? The exchanger itself is not visible.



Big thanks to everyone that helped with this. Its all passed fine, and
I saved myself from a 4 figure ripoff. Cheers!

I expect I've helped others do the same somewhere along the line.


NT