I'm looking into journeys from Manchester to London and from London to
Sheffield and would appreciate any recommendations for intermediate
points to "change between" tickets to save money on the total (A->B
plus B->C is cheaper than A->C).

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 23:32:16 +0100, Adam Funk 
wrote:


>I'm looking into journeys from Manchester to London and from London to
>Sheffield and would appreciate any recommendations for intermediate
>points to "change between" tickets to save money on the total (A->B
>plus B->C is cheaper than A->C).


Manchester to London tickets are valid via Sheffield, so a through
ticket may be your cheapest option.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Tuesday 06 September 2005 23:37, Neil Williams wrote:


> On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 23:32:16 +0100, Adam Funk 
> wrote:
> 
>>I'm looking into journeys from Manchester to London and from London to
>>Sheffield and would appreciate any recommendations for intermediate
>>points to "change between" tickets to save money on the total (A->B
>>plus B->C is cheaper than A->C).
> 
> Manchester to London tickets are valid via Sheffield, so a through
> ticket may be your cheapest option.


I'm surprised at that.  

But I've just had a go at the on-line ATOC routeing guide and I think
the validity derives from the following:

From Manchester group to London group lists GM+MA, MA and MM+PS
and 
  PS includes Manchester<->Sheffield 
and
  MM includes Sheffield<->London.

Is that a correct interpretation?

If it's any use to you, a York to London ticket is valid via Sheffield,
and is valid via Manchester if you excess the appropriate portion to a
'Route Manchester' ticket.

On Wednesday 07 September 2005 00:21, Yorkie wrote:


> If it's any use to you, a York to London ticket is valid via
> Sheffield, and is valid via Manchester if you excess the appropriate
> portion to a 'Route Manchester' ticket.


I'll look into that too.  

But as has been discussed in some threads that I've started in recent
months ("Excess fare to extend the return portion of a SVR?" and
"Excess fares again.") it is difficult to get "official" information
that agrees with what is posted here.

Thanks,
Adam

"Neil Williams"  wrote in message
news:431e1a5d.2433258@news.tesco.net...

> Manchester to London tickets are valid via Sheffield, so a through
> ticket may be your cheapest option.


Is there still a Manchester-London ticket Route Sheffield?  There used to be
one, and it was cheaper than the any permitted.

Roger

Adam Funk  wrote:

>
>But as has been discussed in some threads that I've started in recent
>months ("Excess fare to extend the return portion of a SVR?" and
>"Excess fares again.") it is difficult to get "official" information
>that agrees with what is posted here.



What is posted here *is* usually the official information.  

The problem is finding rail staff who are sufficiently motivated to
learn and apply what is a very complex system of fares and conditions.
Unfortunately, the only sure way to get the ticket(s) you need is to
forearm yourself with all the relevant information and where it can be
found in the fares manuals and national conditions of carriage.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 23:40:22 GMT, "Roger H. Bennett"
 wrote:


>"Neil Williams"  wrote in message
>news:431e1a5d.2433258@news.tesco.net...
>> Manchester to London tickets are valid via Sheffield, so a through
>> ticket may be your cheapest option.
>
>Is there still a Manchester-London ticket Route Sheffield?  There used to be
>one, and it was cheaper than the any permitted.


Well...Route Chesterfield, but yes, it still exists. Though if the OP is
a Railcard holder, it's worth remembering that, whilst a discounted
Saver is valid on *any* Virgin service, that isn't the case for the
other TOCs.

In this case, my advice would probably be to buy a Manchester to London
route Chesterfield ticket (as that's cheaper than the Any Permitted)
plus an Alternate Route Excess for the Outward Journey (which'll be half
the difference in fares).

The OP may, however, wish to buy this at Oxford Road or Victoria, rather
than Piccadilly, as I suspect that the queues will be substantially
shorter, and you'll actually walk away with the right tickets first
time. (Not that I doubt the "quality" of the service provided at
Piccadilly at all...*coff*).

HTH,

Barry

-- 
Barry Salter, barry at southie dot me dot uk
Read uk.* newsgroups? Read uk.net.news.announce!

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 00:07:43 +0100, Adam Funk 
wrote:


>Is that a correct interpretation?


Yes.  It's deliberate, ever since the MML direct service was running.
Prior to that, though, there was a full set of fares "Route
Chesterfield" which you could XS one direction to.

If the Chesterfield fare is more expensive there is the debatable
point as to whether that makes the route invalid on Any P, but if it
does just XS one direction to that fare.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 01:52:00 +0100, Barry Salter
 wrote:


>The OP may, however, wish to buy this at Oxford Road or Victoria, rather
>than Piccadilly, as I suspect that the queues will be substantially
>shorter, and you'll actually walk away with the right tickets first
>time. (Not that I doubt the "quality" of the service provided at
>Piccadilly at all...*coff*).


Watch out - in the peaks the queues at Oxford Road can be far worse,
especially if (not uncommonly) only one window is open and someone
wants a Virgin Advance Saver 1 Tuesday Full-Moon Single with YP and
Plus Bus to Outer Mongolia for 5 weeks' time.

Oh, and don't buy XSes off GNER, as they seem (according to their
website) to want to charge a 10 quid admin fee for them?!

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Wednesday 07 September 2005 01:23, Tony   Polson wrote:


> Adam Funk  wrote:
>>
>>But as has been discussed in some threads that I've started in recent
>>months ("Excess fare to extend the return portion of a SVR?" and
>>"Excess fares again.") it is difficult to get "official" information
>>that agrees with what is posted here.
> 
> 
> What is posted here *is* usually the official information.


I know, but a printout of a Usenet post is probably not sufficient to
convince ticket office staff and conductors if they disagree with you!


> The problem is finding rail staff who are sufficiently motivated to
> learn and apply what is a very complex system of fares and conditions.
> Unfortunately, the only sure way to get the ticket(s) you need is to
> forearm yourself with all the relevant information and where it can be
> found in the fares manuals and national conditions of carriage.


Too bad the whole fares manual isn't on-line.  Oh wait, that might help
customers save money.

I would just get the Any Permitted MAN - EUS SVR because of the MML
route Chesterfield ticket you can use the Any Permitted ticket back via
SHF

On 7 Sep 2005 11:27:55 -0700, "Smart Alec"  wrote:


>I would just get the Any Permitted MAN - EUS SVR because of the MML
>route Chesterfield ticket you can use the Any Permitted ticket back via
>SHF


Whilst the Excess involved is only a pound (Any Permitted SVR being 55,
rte Chesterfield 53), I'd still be inclined to go for the two separate
tickets, given that that pound can then be used towards the cost of a
drink...

Cheers,

Barry

-- 
Barry Salter, barry at southie dot me dot uk
Read uk.* newsgroups? Read uk.net.news.announce!

Roger H. Bennett wrote:


> "Neil Williams"  wrote in message
> news:431e1a5d.2433258@news.tesco.net...
>> Manchester to London tickets are valid via Sheffield, so a through
>> ticket may be your cheapest option.
> 
> Is there still a Manchester-London ticket Route Sheffield?  There used to
> be one, and it was cheaper than the any permitted.


I asked in the Piccadilly Travel Centre this morning about travelling from
Manchester to London on a Friday afternoon and returning on a Sunday via
Sheffield.  He said I should buy the 53 SVR Manchester to London via
Chesterfield and a 2 excess for the outward portion to cover the direct
route.  

Bizarrely, the default ticket costs 55 and does not cover the Chesterfield
route, whereas the ticket via Chesterfield costs 53.  Is this because the
Chesterfield route is slower and presumed less desirable, or it is just one
of those anomalies?

Adam Funk wrote:


> I asked in the Piccadilly Travel Centre this morning about travelling from
> Manchester to London on a Friday afternoon and returning on a Sunday via
> Sheffield.  He said I should buy the 53 SVR Manchester to London via
> Chesterfield and a 2 excess for the outward portion to cover the direct
> route.
> 
> Bizarrely, the default ticket costs 55 and does not cover the
> Chesterfield
> route, whereas the ticket via Chesterfield costs 53.  Is this because the
> Chesterfield route is slower and presumed less desirable, or it is just
> one of those anomalies?


I've noticed one potential problem with this.  Most of the trips suggested
by the journey planner (for London to Sheffield on a Sunday) involve
changing at Doncaster for Sheffield.  Would I be allowed to do this with a
return portion from London to Manchester via Chesterfield, or would I be
restricted to the (less frequent) direct trains from London to Sheffield?

Adam Funk wrote:

> Adam Funk wrote:
>
> > I asked in the Piccadilly Travel Centre this morning about travelling from
> > Manchester to London on a Friday afternoon and returning on a Sunday via
> > Sheffield.  He said I should buy the £53 SVR Manchester to London via
> > Chesterfield and a £2 excess for the outward portion to cover the direct
> > route.
> >
> > Bizarrely, the default ticket costs £55 and does not cover the
> > Chesterfield
> > route, whereas the ticket via Chesterfield costs £53.  Is this because the
> > Chesterfield route is slower and presumed less desirable, or it is just
> > one of those anomalies?


The £55 ticket does allow travel on the Chesterfield route.  Maps
MM will get you from St Pancras through Chesterfield to Sheffield
and then through Stockport to Manc.


> I've noticed one potential problem with this.  Most of the trips suggested
> by the journey planner (for London to Sheffield on a Sunday) involve
> changing at Doncaster for Sheffield.  Would I be allowed to do this with a
> return portion from London to Manchester via Chesterfield, or would I be
> restricted to the (less frequent) direct trains from London to Sheffield?


No, you can't go via Doncaster on a London-Manc ticket.  You can on a
Any Permitted London-Sheffield ticket, however.

Adam Funk wrote:

>
> I asked in the Piccadilly Travel Centre this morning about travelling from
> Manchester to London on a Friday afternoon and returning on a Sunday via
> Sheffield.  He said I should buy the £53 SVR Manchester to London via
> Chesterfield and a £2 excess for the outward portion to cover the direct
> route.


Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong! (They are, not you!)

The excess is /one/ pound. If you're only using the more expensive
route for one leg of the journey, the excess is /half/ the difference
between the two fares.

If they won't sell you the right tickets, then ask on the train to be
excessed. If the on-train staff are still playing to the wrong rules,
it's probably best to go along with it, but write a stiff letter of
complaint afterwards. Be prepared to take it to appeal though, via the
Rail Passengers Council.

I speak (or type) from bitter experience here. I am really am getting
most dreadfully brassed off with TOCs who feel they can make up rules
as they go along. If they want to change the excess rules officially,
then they need to agree that with all the other TOCs through ATOC. That
has /not/ happened as certain TOCs have eventually had to admit (in
private correspondence).

BTW, I'm not having a go at VT here - IME /all/ the long distance
operators are equally culpable. And probably many of the short distance
operators too, though there's less occasion for finding out.

Incidentally, my local ticket wallah tells me that he's had
instructions from The Management to stop issuing zero fare excesses.
That is of course the proper procedure when someone with a ticket
routed one way wishes to use it on a /lower/ priced route.

What /is/ it with these lunatics in the TOCs' commercial departments?!?
If they'd rather run buses or planes, they should clear off and find a
bus station or an airport to play at. But if they want to run trains on
a railway network, then it's high time that they started to learn,
comprehend, teach and enforce the straightforward rules that have been
in place for ages now.

Neil Williams wrote:

>
> Oh, and don't buy XSes off GNER, as they seem (according to their
> website) to want to charge a 10 quid admin fee for them?!


Really? Where's that then?
This might be a case for PC Pat to take up with the RPC.
-- 
Pat Ricroft, City of Salford, UK
================================

On 8 Sep 2005 05:16:16 -0700, Pat Ricroft wrote in
, seen in
uk.railway:

[...]

> Incidentally, my local ticket wallah tells me that he's had
> instructions from The Management to stop issuing zero fare excesses.


I understand that this instruction was issued to my local on-train
ticket wallahs a couple of years ago. Even when zero-fare issues *are*
permitted, they're now handled in a way which completely fazes me.


[...] 

> What /is/ it with these lunatics in the TOCs' commercial departments?!?


Burgered if I know, but perhaps if they had to spend serious time at
the sharp end (rather than the odd photo-opportunity), maybe they'd
get their act together.

-- 
Ross, a.k.a.
Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life)
Hon. Pres., National Soc. for the Encouragement for Cruelty to Dogboxes
Proud to be the target of various trolls, sock puppets and other idiots

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 09:07:59 +0100, Adam Funk 
wrote:


>Bizarrely, the default ticket costs 55 and does not cover the Chesterfield
>route


It does, since the last Routeing Guide change removed the routes via
Oxford and High Wycombe and added Chesterfield as Permitted.  What you
say used to be the case, however.

It's just that the XS is the cheaper option!

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On 8 Sep 2005 05:21:11 -0700, "Pat Ricroft" 
wrote:


>Really? Where's that then?


They appear to have updated their website in the last few days, such
that it now contains no details of tickets other than the Advance
specials and the business tickets.  However, the old site said this:-

-------
Changes to travel plans
If the outward date is to be changed, cancel and rebook.
Usually valid for Any Permitted route or specified geographic route.
If route is to be changed, a £10 administration fee is charged.
--------

Isn't Google wonderful?  You can see it all at the below URL.  I'm
sure I've read the same thing in their printed ticketing guide.

<URL:
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:-E2wAMfWf1oJ:www.gner.co.uk/GNER/Tickets/Your%2Bticket%2Boptions/Ticket%2Brestrictions.htm+gner+route+change+saver&hl=en>

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Adam Funk wrote:


> I've noticed one potential problem with this.  Most of the trips suggested
> by the journey planner (for London to Sheffield on a Sunday) involve
> changing at Doncaster for Sheffield.  Would I be allowed to do this with a
> return portion from London to Manchester via Chesterfield, or would I be
> restricted to the (less frequent) direct trains from London to Sheffield?


Never mind.  There's a direct train every hour on Sunday afternoon but it's
a bit slower than the "indirect train" (change at Doncaster).  I had
forgotten that the journey planner omits a train or combination that starts
before and arrives after another train or combination.