Apologies in advance if it's come up before, I've googled and checked in the
fares manual/conditions of carriage, but can't find it

Travelling to London today I did the usual buying two tickets for different
parts of the journey, saving 20 from the standard return, and making sure
that the train stopped at the 'break' station on both outward and return
journeys.

Station ticket guy (not the usual one) asked if I was going to get off the
train at the 'break' station, even if immediately rejoining it, as otherwise
if I stayed in my seat throughout he had been advised by the TTIs that it
was an 'illegal' ticket.

I'm sure this is nonsense, but can anyone confirm?

Thanks in advance

PH

He is wrong and you are right. If you buy two tickets for one journey the 
only condition is that the train must be booked to call at the station where 
your tickets 'break'

It used to be the case that you had to get off and get back on, but this 
isn't the case and shouldn't be advised or enforced.

Steve


"Patrick Hearn"  wrote in message 
news:dfl243$p4s$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...

> Apologies in advance if it's come up before, I've googled and checked in 
> the
> fares manual/conditions of carriage, but can't find it
>
> Travelling to London today I did the usual buying two tickets for 
> different
> parts of the journey, saving 20 from the standard return, and making sure
> that the train stopped at the 'break' station on both outward and return
> journeys.
>
> Station ticket guy (not the usual one) asked if I was going to get off the
> train at the 'break' station, even if immediately rejoining it, as 
> otherwise
> if I stayed in my seat throughout he had been advised by the TTIs that it
> was an 'illegal' ticket.
>
> I'm sure this is nonsense, but can anyone confirm?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> PH
>
>
>
> 

Patrick Hearn wrote:


> Travelling to London today I did the usual buying two tickets for different
> parts of the journey, saving 20 from the standard return, and making sure
> that the train stopped at the 'break' station on both outward and return
> journeys.
> 
> Station ticket guy (not the usual one) asked if I was going to get off the
> train at the 'break' station, even if immediately rejoining it, as otherwise
> if I stayed in my seat throughout he had been advised by the TTIs that it
> was an 'illegal' ticket.
> 
> I'm sure this is nonsense, but can anyone confirm?


It is utter nonsense.

You don't have to get off the train, you don't need to leave your
seat. If at all times, you have a ticket that is valid for travel on
that train at that time, your are fine.

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

Patrick Hearn wrote:

> Apologies in advance if it's come up before, I've googled and checked in the
> fares manual/conditions of carriage, but can't find it


You are right - the guy was wrong. Pick up the Conditions of Carriage
at a station, or get a print from
http://nrekb.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/passengers.htm

In simple terms - if the train stops, there is no argument. But in
addition, you can sometimes avoid that requirement. You need to refer
to: -

Section 17
You may use two or more tickets to travel on one train journey as long
as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following
applies:

they are zonal tickets;
the train you are on calls at the station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
one of the tickets is a season ticket, which for this purpose does not
include season tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger
transport executive or local authority, and the other ticket(s) is/are
not. You must comply with any restriction of use to a particular Train
Company's trains shown on the tickets (see Condition 10).
If you do not comply with these conditions you will be treated as
having joined the train without a valid ticket and Condition 7 or 8
(whichever is relevant) will apply either to the journey, or from the
last station where the train called at which your tickets were valid to
travel on the same train.

regards
HN28

On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 22:38:26 +0100, "Patrick Hearn"
 wrote:


>Station ticket guy (not the usual one) asked if I was going to get off the
>train at the 'break' station, even if immediately rejoining it, as otherwise
>if I stayed in my seat throughout he had been advised by the TTIs that it
>was an 'illegal' ticket.
>
>I'm sure this is nonsense, but can anyone confirm?


Yes, it's complete crap.  Write and complain, giving the name if you
have it, as someone obviously requires some re-training.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

hn28_signal@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> 
> You need to refer to: -
> 
> Section 17
> You may use two or more tickets to travel on one train journey as long
> as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following
> applies:
> 
> they are zonal tickets;
> the train you are on calls at the station where you change from one
> ticket to another; or
> one of the tickets is a season ticket, which for this purpose does not
> include season tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger
> transport executive or local authority, and the other ticket(s) is/are
> not. You must comply with any restriction of use to a particular Train
> Company's trains shown on the tickets (see Condition 10).
> If you do not comply with these conditions you will be treated as
> having joined the train without a valid ticket and Condition 7 or 8
> (whichever is relevant) will apply either to the journey, or from the
> last station where the train called at which your tickets were valid to
> travel on the same train.


I have a London boroughs' Freedom Pass, which is described as "paid for
by your local Council" and thus seems to fit the description of a
"travel pass issued on behalf of a ... local authority". I have, on
occasions, bought a CDR from the boundary of zone 6 to Cambridge, and
travelled on a service which runs non-stop from Kings Cross to
Cambridge. My combination of tickets has always been acepted. Similarly,
last weekend I bought a CDR from the boundary of zone 6 to Woking, and
travelled on a service which ran non-stop from Clapham Junction (in zone
2) to Woking. The ticket inspector on the train did not raise any
objection. Am I misunderstanding the nature of a Freedom Pass or have I
been consistently lucky? I ask because I plan to travel to Cambridge
again soon and would prefer to avoid any unpleasantness on the journey.

-- 
John Ray, London UK.

On Tuesday 06 September 2005 23:10, Neil Williams wrote:


> On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 22:38:26 +0100, "Patrick Hearn"
>  wrote:
> 
>>Station ticket guy (not the usual one) asked if I was going to get off
>>the train at the 'break' station, even if immediately rejoining it, as
>>otherwise if I stayed in my seat throughout he had been advised by the
>>TTIs that it was an 'illegal' ticket.
>>
>>I'm sure this is nonsense, but can anyone confirm?


As already stated, you can magically switch from two otherwise valid
tickets from A to B and from B to C if the train stops at B (and also
if one is a season ticket not of certain types).


> Yes, it's complete crap.  Write and complain, giving the name if you
> have it, as someone obviously requires some re-training.


I would give enough information to identify the employee only if he or
she had been really obnoxious, since I (like to) believe that most
employees' errors are the result of mismanagement or bad training.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 23:32:10 +0100, John Ray
 wrote:


> Am I misunderstanding the nature of a Freedom Pass or have I
>been consistently lucky?


Quite possibly that one.  I've used a GMPTE CountyCard together with
CDRs without the train stopping at the boundary a few times but never
been questioned (at the time I thought it counted as a season ticket).

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

"Patrick Hearn"  wrote in message
news:dfl243$p4s$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...

> Apologies in advance if it's come up before, I've googled and checked in
the
> fares manual/conditions of carriage, but can't find it
>
> Travelling to London today I did the usual buying two tickets for
different
> parts of the journey, saving 20 from the standard return, and making sure
> that the train stopped at the 'break' station on both outward and return
> journeys.
>
> Station ticket guy (not the usual one) asked if I was going to get off the
> train at the 'break' station, even if immediately rejoining it, as
otherwise
> if I stayed in my seat throughout he had been advised by the TTIs that it
> was an 'illegal' ticket.
>
> I'm sure this is nonsense, but can anyone confirm?


There is no obligation to leave the train - the tickets cover you for each
portion of the journey, not to visit the platforms!

TM

(which TOC was it? I'd like to put them right!)

Adam Funk  wrote:


>I would give enough information to identify the employee only if he or
>she had been really obnoxious, since I (like to) believe that most
>employees' errors are the result of mismanagement or bad training.



Of course it could not possibly have been a result of a railway
employee's bad attitude.  

Oh no it couldn't ...

;-)

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 23:32:10 +0100, John Ray
 wrote:


>I have a London boroughs' Freedom Pass, which is described as "paid for
>by your local Council" and thus seems to fit the description of a
>"travel pass issued on behalf of a ... local authority". I have, on
>occasions, bought a CDR from the boundary of zone 6 to Cambridge, and
>travelled on a service which runs non-stop from Kings Cross to
>Cambridge. My combination of tickets has always been acepted. Similarly,
>last weekend I bought a CDR from the boundary of zone 6 to Woking, and
>travelled on a service which ran non-stop from Clapham Junction (in zone
>2) to Woking. The ticket inspector on the train did not raise any
>objection. Am I misunderstanding the nature of a Freedom Pass or have I
>been consistently lucky? I ask because I plan to travel to Cambridge
>again soon and would prefer to avoid any unpleasantness on the journey.


For Excess purposes, a Freedom Pass is treated as if it were a Season
Ticket, though if memory serves, they *aren't* valid on First Great
Western, Gatwick Express, GNER, Midland Mainline or Virgin West Coast
services.

HTH,

Barry

-- 
Barry Salter, barry at southie dot me dot uk
Read uk.* newsgroups? Read uk.net.news.announce!

"Adam Funk"  wrote in message
news:3o6k3rF4e70qU1@individual.net...

> On Tuesday 06 September 2005 23:10, Neil Williams wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 22:38:26 +0100, "Patrick Hearn"
> >  wrote:
> >
> >>Station ticket guy (not the usual one) asked if I was going to get off
> >>the train at the 'break' station, even if immediately rejoining it, as
> >>otherwise if I stayed in my seat throughout he had been advised by the
> >>TTIs that it was an 'illegal' ticket.
> >>
> >>I'm sure this is nonsense, but can anyone confirm?
>
> As already stated, you can magically switch from two otherwise valid
> tickets from A to B and from B to C if the train stops at B (and also
> if one is a season ticket not of certain types).
>
> > Yes, it's complete crap.  Write and complain, giving the name if you
> > have it, as someone obviously requires some re-training.
>
> I would give enough information to identify the employee only if he or
> she had been really obnoxious, since I (like to) believe that most
> employees' errors are the result of mismanagement or bad training.


Which is why they need to be identified in order that they can be
re-trained.

Michael

On Wednesday 07 September 2005 08:45, Michael Hopkins wrote:


>> I would give enough information to identify the employee only if he
>> or she had been really obnoxious, since I (like to) believe that most
>> employees' errors are the result of mismanagement or bad training.
> 
> Which is why they need to be identified in order that they can be
> re-trained.


I agree in principle, but I'm reluctant to get someone in trouble for
something that seems like an honest mistake, especially since I
wouldn't like that job.

In message , at 09:02:44 on Wed, 7 Sep 
2005, Adam Funk  remarked:

>>> I would give enough information to identify the employee only if he
>>> or she had been really obnoxious, since I (like to) believe that most
>>> employees' errors are the result of mismanagement or bad training.
>>
>> Which is why they need to be identified in order that they can be
>> re-trained.
>
>I agree in principle, but I'm reluctant to get someone in trouble for
>something that seems like an honest mistake, especially since I
>wouldn't like that job.


Something like that is not an "honest mistake". It is an absolutely 
fundamental principle of railway ticketing. The attitude it betrays, of 
falsely accusing people of "trying to beat the system", must be rooted 
out.
-- 
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:


> Something like that is not an "honest mistake". It is an absolutely
> fundamental principle of railway ticketing. The attitude it betrays, of
> falsely accusing people of "trying to beat the system", must be rooted
> out.


Hear hear. That's why I am continuing to take the case of Gordon the
Train Manager up with Virgin. Who is he next going to threaten with
arrest for boarding at Lockerbie without a ticket?

Ian

Patrick Hearn wrote:

> Travelling to London today I did the usual buying two tickets for different
> parts of the journey, saving 20 from the standard return, and making sure
> that the train stopped at the 'break' station on both outward and return
> journeys.


How did you buy a ticket that didn't start at the station you were 
travelling from? I've tried to do that in the past (to cover an open-jaw 
journey) but was told that they can only issue tickets for travel from 
that station. In the end I ended up travelling the last part of the 
journey for free as there wasn't an opportunity to buy a ticket for it.

Surely they can do it? They seemed to cope fine when I exchanged a 
Permit to Travel from Sandling at Ashford at the weekend.

-- 
Jonathan Stott
Canterbury Weather: http://www.canterburyweather.co.uk/
Reverse my e-mail address to reply by e-mail

Adam Funk wrote:


> I agree in principle, but I'm reluctant to get someone in trouble for
> something that seems like an honest mistake, especially since I
> wouldn't like that job.


Surely they won't get in trouble if they never received appropriate 
training in the first place? (Which might or might not be the case.) 
Better the problem be brought up and rectified than someone else being 
told incorrect information.

-- 
Jonathan Stott
Canterbury Weather: http://www.canterburyweather.co.uk/
Reverse my e-mail address to reply by e-mail

"John Ray"  wrote

>
> I have a London boroughs' Freedom Pass, which is described as "paid for
> by your local Council" and thus seems to fit the description of a
> "travel pass issued on behalf of a ... local authority". I have, on
> occasions, bought a CDR from the boundary of zone 6 to Cambridge, and
> travelled on a service which runs non-stop from Kings Cross to
> Cambridge. My combination of tickets has always been acepted.


London Freedom Pass (or Travelcard) plus BZ6 to .. is a perfectly valid
combination, and you won't actually find trains which make a point of
stopping at the boundary (which is usually between two stations). I was
recently in the Bromley South Travel Centre, and a customer was trying to
arrange a journey to Wickford for the next day. She was first told the cost
of a SDR, then establsished that she did not need to travel in the morning
peak, so a CDR would be appropriate. She then produced her Freedom Pass, so
the required ticket became a BZ6 to Wickford CDR. She then produced a Priv
Card, so the fare came down to GBP 1 something. The clerk then gently
explained that she would of course have to produce her ticket, her Freedom
Pass, and her Priv Card if she was gripped. All this took about 20 minutes,
and earned SET 9% commission on GBR 1 something.

Peter

"Jonathan Stott"  wrote in message 
news:dfm8aa$j6b$1@oheron.kent.ac.uk...

> Patrick Hearn wrote:
>> Travelling to London today I did the usual buying two tickets for 
>> different
>> parts of the journey, saving 20 from the standard return, and making 
>> sure
>> that the train stopped at the 'break' station on both outward and return
>> journeys.
>
> How did you buy a ticket that didn't start at the station you were 
> travelling from? I've tried to do that in the past (to cover an open-jaw 
> journey) but was told that they can only issue tickets for travel from 
> that station. In the end I ended up travelling the last part of the 
> journey for free as there wasn't an opportunity to buy a ticket for it.


What they mean to say is that they can't be bothered to do it.

My local station is a case of pot luck - if I get the miserable old fart 
then he won't sell me the ticket "oh no - we can't sell you a ticket for 
there, the machine won't allow us" whereas the other 3 staff members are 
more than happy to sell the ticket.

I've had a lot more luck with London stations - particularly with x to a 
boundary zone and vice versa.

Barry Salter wrote:

> 
> For Excess purposes, a Freedom Pass is treated as if it were a Season
> Ticket 



Thank you, Barry. It's an anomaly, but one which works in my favour so
I'm not going to complain!

-- 
John Ray, London UK.

"shaun"  wrote:


>My local station is a case of pot luck - if I get the miserable old fart 
>then he won't sell me the ticket "oh no - we can't sell you a ticket for 
>there, the machine won't allow us" whereas the other 3 staff members are 
>more than happy to sell the ticket.



Unfortunately, the railway is still populated with hordes of staff who
take great delight in making a rail journey even more unpleasant than
it already is.  

The railway has long been a repository for people who wouldn't be
remotely able to gain employment in any other customer-facing job, and
privatisation has changed the customer-hostile attitude of rail staff
far less than it should.

Steve wrote:

> He is wrong and you are right. If you buy two tickets for one journey the
> only condition is that the train must be booked to call at the station where
> your tickets 'break'
>
> It used to be the case that you had to get off and get back on, but this
> isn't the case and shouldn't be advised or enforced.


I never understood this.  Does it really matter?  I mean, you've paid
for the whole journey so who cares?

-- 
Paul

Patrick Hearn wrote:


>
> Station ticket guy (not the usual one) asked if I was going to get off the
> train at the 'break' station, even if immediately rejoining it, as otherwise
> if I stayed in my seat throughout he had been advised by the TTIs that it
> was an 'illegal' ticket.
>
> I'm sure this is nonsense, but can anyone confirm?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> PH


>From what i understand and unless they've changed the rules again

recently, you need not even find a train that stops at the crossover
point, providing the train you are using is operated by the same
company that operates a train that would stop there. Eg; Travelling
from London Paddington - Reading on a Paddington - Twyford ticket with
an extension from Twyford: You are permitted to use the non-stop
Adelante trains providing they are operated by FGWL. You could not
however, use FGW as they don't serve Twyford.

Paul  wrote:

> I never understood this.  Does it really matter?  I mean, you've paid
> for the whole journey so who cares?


It used to be like this to stop people using Network Card tickets on
InterCity trains.  The NSE border stations were conveniently set to be one
station before a major IC calling point (eg Huntingdon, Northampton) so that
to use a Network Card ticket on, say, London to York you had to get an NSE
GN train that stopped at Huntingdon to Peterborough then change, rather than
just use London-Huntingdon and Huntingdon-York tickets on an ICEC train. 
Before the widespread adoption of APTIS it was harder to get tickets not
starting at your current station (did they just have to look it up in the
Fares Manual and handwrite a ticket, or would you have to go to a Travel
Centre or similar?)

I supposed today's situation would be that by buying London-Huntingdon and
Huntingdon-Peterborough tickets all your money goes to WAGN, while without
the restriction you'd be allowed to use GNER.  You'd also be able to do
dodges like buying a CDR from the first station you pass after 9.30.  It's
still possible, but for long distance trains is much less worthwhile (eg a
fictional 09:15 from King's Cross first stop York does not have Savers
valid, but you could use a Saver from Hatfield instead without the rule.  So
GNER lose the difference between a London-York SOR and a London-Hatfield
SOR+Hatfield-York SVR)

Theo

"Theo Markettos" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote


> Before the widespread adoption of APTIS it was harder to get tickets not
> starting at your current station (did they just have to look it up in the
> Fares Manual and handwrite a ticket, or would you have to go to a Travel
> Centre or similar?)
>

It was possible - in the 1970s my father bought at Chislehurst a ticket from
London to Heathrow 'via Feltham and Bus' - it was a handwritten paper
ticket.

Peter

shaun wrote:

> "Jonathan Stott"  wrote in message
> news:dfm8aa$j6b$1@oheron.kent.ac.uk...
> >
> > How did you buy a ticket that didn't start at the station you were
> > travelling from? I've tried to do that in the past (to cover an open-jaw
> > journey) but was told that they can only issue tickets for travel from
> > that station. In the end I ended up travelling the last part of the
> > journey for free as there wasn't an opportunity to buy a ticket for it.
>
> What they mean to say is that they can't be bothered to do it.
>
> My local station is a case of pot luck - if I get the miserable old fart
> then he won't sell me the ticket "oh no - we can't sell you a ticket for
> there, the machine won't allow us" whereas the other 3 staff members are
> more than happy to sell the ticket.


The old machines only seem to have the fares built in for destinations
from that station but allow other tickets to be printed if the details
are known.

Most stations have another computer for booking reservations and making
timetable enquiries and I thought ticket offices had fares manuals to
look up fares if necessary!

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 10:37:57 +0100, Tony Polson wrote in
, seen in uk.railway:

[...]

> The railway has long been a repository for people who wouldn't be
> remotely able to gain employment in any other customer-facing job, 


Perhaps the railway has been taking lessons from the Post Office and
particularly sub-post-offices? [1]

It ill behoves someone who has worked for the Post Office, whether
directly or otherwise, to criticise another organisation for poor
service when the Post Office by all its names is infamous for its own
inability to recognise customer service when handed it on a plate. [2]


[1] A nice example is the sub-postmaster who told me to stop bringing
parcels and airmail packets in to his sub-post office because he
couldn't be bothered dealing with them and in the next breath asked me
to sign the petition against the closure of his sub-post office. 
[2] Bet that gets a rant in return. Be interesting to see just how
much of one and how personal it gets this time.

-- 
Ross, a.k.a.
Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life)
Hon. Pres., National Soc. for the Encouragement for Cruelty to Dogboxes
Proud to be the target of various trolls, sock puppets and other idiots

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 09:30:31 +0100, Jonathan Stott wrote in
<dfm8du$j6b$2@oheron.kent.ac.uk>, seen in uk.railway:

> Adam Funk wrote:
> 
> > I agree in principle, but I'm reluctant to get someone in trouble for
> > something that seems like an honest mistake, especially since I
> > wouldn't like that job.
> 
> Surely they won't get in trouble if they never received appropriate 
> training in the first place? 


That's, unfortunately, nave. The TOC won't like the fact that their
training has been shown up as inadequate; if it's an individual
trainer who's skills are inadequate but who's a blue-eyed boy, then
you can bet it'll be deemed the trained rather than the trainer at
fault.

It's always much easier for TPTB to bollock someone than it is for
them to admit to (and deal with) a problem. Constructive behaviour is
something that the companies do find rather difficult in their
dealings both with their customers and their employees.



> Better the problem be brought up and rectified than someone else being 
> told incorrect information.


I agree. I just wish I could be sure that is what will happen. :-(

(Yes, I'm cynical about these things. I'm cynical with cause).
-- 
Ross, a.k.a.
Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life)
Hon. Pres., National Soc. for the Encouragement for Cruelty to Dogboxes
Proud to be the target of various trolls, sock puppets and other idiots

naked_draughtsman wrote:

> shaun wrote:
>> "Jonathan Stott"  wrote in message
>> news:dfm8aa$j6b$1@oheron.kent.ac.uk...
>>>
>>> How did you buy a ticket that didn't start at the station you were
>>> travelling from? I've tried to do that in the past (to cover an
>>> open-jaw journey) but was told that they can only issue tickets for
>>> travel from that station. In the end I ended up travelling the last
>>> part of the journey for free as there wasn't an opportunity to buy
>>> a ticket for it.
>>
>> What they mean to say is that they can't be bothered to do it.
>>
>> My local station is a case of pot luck - if I get the miserable old
>> fart then he won't sell me the ticket "oh no - we can't sell you a
>> ticket for there, the machine won't allow us" whereas the other 3
>> staff members are more than happy to sell the ticket.
>
> The old machines only seem to have the fares built in for destinations
> from that station but allow other tickets to be printed if the details
> are known.


Exactly - they just can't be arsed to look it up.

GreatWesternSean wrote:

> Patrick Hearn wrote:
> 
> 
>>Station ticket guy (not the usual one) asked if I was going to get off the
>>train at the 'break' station, even if immediately rejoining it, as otherwise
>>if I stayed in my seat throughout he had been advised by the TTIs that it
>>was an 'illegal' ticket.
>>
>>I'm sure this is nonsense, but can anyone confirm?
>>
>>Thanks in advance
>>
>>PH
> 
>>From what i understand and unless they've changed the rules again
> recently, you need not even find a train that stops at the crossover
> point, providing the train you are using is operated by the same
> company that operates a train that would stop there. Eg; Travelling
> from London Paddington - Reading on a Paddington - Twyford ticket with
> an extension from Twyford: You are permitted to use the non-stop
> Adelante trains providing they are operated by FGWL. You could not
> however, use FGW as they don't serve Twyford.


That's not the case any more.  The train has to stop there unless you've 
got a season ticket or zonal ticket.

See point 17 of the National Conditions of Carriage
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 08:19:51 +0100, Roland Perry 
wrote:


>In message , at 22:36:54 on Tue, 6 Sep 
>2005, Neil Williams  remarked:
>>I've used a GMPTE CountyCard together with
>>CDRs without the train stopping at the boundary a few times but never
>>been questioned (at the time I thought it counted as a season ticket).
>
>The "boundary" in London isn't always a station. So the trains don't 
>stop there, almost by definition.


Sorry, didn't read the OP properly.

London Travelcards (of whatever kind, season or otherwise) and
outbound Boundary Zone singles/returns are a special case.  The train
does *not* have to stop at this fictitious boundary station in any
case involving such tickets; the only restriction is that you can't
use former IC operators (except, it would seem, the IC part of One
Anglia).

It's a shame these regulations do not apply elsewhere.  It would be
nice if I could buy a "Travelcard to Manchester", for example, other
than PlusBus, rather than having to purchase on arrival.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 09:28:35 +0100, Jonathan Stott 
wrote:


>How did you buy a ticket that didn't start at the station you were 
>travelling from? 


Any station can issue any[1] ticket from anywhere to anywhere,
certainly if they have APTIS or TRIBUTE (the former requires looking
up the fare, I suspect the latter doesn't).

The usual approach, however, is one of "can't be bothered".  I used to
use Trainline for ticket combinations, but if they're going to prat
about with credit card charges I'm going to use the ticket office
instead and leave the profiteers behind.

[1] with the exception of "special" things like PTE rovers and such.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 18:00:59 +0100, Ross 
wrote:


>[1] A nice example is the sub-postmaster who told me to stop bringing
>parcels and airmail packets in to his sub-post office because he
>couldn't be bothered dealing with them and in the next breath asked me
>to sign the petition against the closure of his sub-post office. 


I've occasionally had moans at post offices when I've tried to pay in
large amounts of change (sometimes bagged up if in sufficient amounts,
usually not in sufficient amounts for that) to my Co-operative Bank
account at the Post Office.  Stating that they actually had to do it
usually got there in the end, but not without a whinge.

Mind you, that doesn't beat the Kundenverarschung[1] on offer in
German banks, where I had to put coins into rolls myself, and where
opening a basic current account seems to be something special...

[1] A nice phrase picked up from de.etc.bahn.misc when I was a regular
poster when living over there, generally used to describe DB's latest
silly scheme.  "Kunden" refers to customer(s), for those who don't
speak German, and the other part of the word is exactly what it sounds
like.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Roland Perry wrote:


> Something like that is not an "honest mistake". It is an absolutely 
> fundamental principle of railway ticketing. The attitude it betrays, 
> of falsely accusing people of "trying to beat the system", must be 
> rooted out.


That's totally over the top, and unfair on the ticket clerk.

It could have been - and probably was - an honest mistake. The ticket
clerk probably did think that what he said was the truth. That's what
an honest mistake means. Ticket clerks must see so many different
people trying to use so many different ways to cheat the system that
it is not surprising that they may, on the odd occasions when someone
suggests an unusual but valid possibility, believe it to be invalid.

Yes, the ticket clerk needs retraining - yes, he needs to understand
the principles behind using combinations of tickets better. But it was
still most likely an honest mistake.

Question - how does the ticket clerk think the RPIs would know if the
OP got off the train and back on, or just stayed in his seat?

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

Jonathan Stott wrote:


> How did you buy a ticket that didn't start at the station you were 
> travelling from?


By asking? I've done that several times and not had a problem. The
most common situation is when I'm traveling from Selby (where I live)
but buy the ticket in York (where I work), usually when I want an
Advance Purchase ticket and can't easily get to Selby station during
opening hours.

All ticket agents - including station ticket offices - should be able
to sell a ticket from any one station to any other station.

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

"Stevie D"  wrote in message
news:5ijuh194362ion6533mqe0ltnlavkr3ov5@4ax.com...


> It could have been - and probably was - an honest mistake. The ticket
> clerk probably did think that what he said was the truth. That's what
> an honest mistake means. Ticket clerks must see so many different
> people trying to use so many different ways to cheat the system that
> it is not surprising that they may, on the odd occasions when someone
> suggests an unusual but valid possibility, believe it to be invalid.


Hmm... maybe, but...


> Question - how does the ticket clerk think the RPIs would know if the
> OP got off the train and back on, or just stayed in his seat?


Exactly the point. This argues *against* it being an honest mistake.
Seriously, the point that you don't need to get off and on again at the
changeover station is *so* *well* *known* among the travelling public that
whenever anyone who ought to know better tells an inexperienced traveller
that he does need to do so, one is suspicious. I simply don't believe there
are ticket clerks out there who don't know the rules in this respect.

Regards

Jonathan

"Neil Williams"  wrote in message
news:431f2387.1034898@news.tesco.net...


> Any station can issue any[1] ticket from anywhere to anywhere...


....and *must* do so if requested, I believe.

Regards

Jonathan

In message , at 21:37:50 on 
Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Stevie D  remarked:

>Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> Something like that is not an "honest mistake". It is an absolutely
>> fundamental principle of railway ticketing. The attitude it betrays,
>> of falsely accusing people of "trying to beat the system", must be
>> rooted out.
>
>That's totally over the top, and unfair on the ticket clerk.
>
>It could have been - and probably was - an honest mistake. The ticket
>clerk probably did think that what he said was the truth. That's what
>an honest mistake means.


Don't be daft. Joining two tickets like that is an absolutely 
fundamental part of railway ticketing. Just like knowing that Savers 
have restrictions off-peak. I simply can't believe that someone in that 
position would be that ignorant.


>Ticket clerks must see so many different
>people trying to use so many different ways to cheat the system that
>it is not surprising that they may, on the odd occasions when someone
>suggests an unusual but valid possibility, believe it to be invalid.


It's not the slightest bit unusual. Whereas, I was happy to explain to a 
WAGN gripper the intricacies of travelling from Cambridge to Liverpool 
St via Stansted on a ticket marked "not stansted" [for the gory details 
see threads about 5 years ago] as that seemed to me to be a relatively 
unusual requirement.


>Yes, the ticket clerk needs retraining - yes, he needs to understand
>the principles behind using combinations of tickets better. But it was
>still most likely an honest mistake.
>
>Question - how does the ticket clerk think the RPIs would know if the
>OP got off the train and back on, or just stayed in his seat?


No idea, but the question is Moot, as the "getting off and back on" 
isn't a real rule.

I've just booked a trip with two tickets, split at an intermediate 
station (where the train stops). The online booking system has issued me 
with seat reservations (as it does), and quite sensibly has allocated 
the *same* seat to both tickets.
-- 
Roland Perry

In message , at 21:40:15 on 
Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Stevie D  remarked:

>All ticket agents - including station ticket offices - should be able
>to sell a ticket from any one station to any other station.


Not only "should" but MUST. That doesn't stop some of them refusing, of 
course.
-- 
Roland Perry

"Tony Miles"  wrote in message
news:dfl7o5$l45$1$8300dec7@news.beeb.net...

>
> "Patrick Hearn"  wrote in message
> news:dfl243$p4s$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
(snip)
>
> (which TOC was it? I'd like to put them right!)
>
>


Thanks Tony (and other posters)

FGW, Nailsea

Regards

PH

"Jonathan Stott"  wrote in message
news:dfm8aa$j6b$1@oheron.kent.ac.uk...

> Patrick Hearn wrote:
> > Travelling to London today I did the usual buying two tickets for
different
> > parts of the journey, saving 20 from the standard return, and making
sure
> > that the train stopped at the 'break' station on both outward and return
> > journeys.
>
> How did you buy a ticket that didn't start at the station you were
> travelling from? I've tried to do that in the past (to cover an open-jaw
> journey) but was told that they can only issue tickets for travel from
> that station. In the end I ended up travelling the last part of the
> journey for free as there wasn't an opportunity to buy a ticket for it.
>
> Surely they can do it? They seemed to cope fine when I exchanged a
> Permit to Travel from Sandling at Ashford at the weekend.
>
> -- 
> Jonathan Stott
> Canterbury Weather: http://www.canterburyweather.co.uk/
> Reverse my e-mail address to reply by e-mail


Simply, I ask  for a return from A to B and one from B to C.  There's
sometimes a grumble about time and queues, getting there earlier etc. and
previously a comment that it was going to be raised at the next meeting to
put a stop to it (!).  The ticket machine is one of the new fangled ones
that replaced SPORTIS.

I've actually (when ticket office has been shut) managed it with a SPORTIS,
with the guard telling me one can buy split tickets only before joining a
train unless the ticket office is shut

In this case it was the relief guy on the station, who sold me the ticket.
The 'illegal' comment was something he'd been told by the TTIs and he was
tipping me the wink in case I was asked on the train if I'd got off and got
back on.  I told him it was incorrect and we left it at that.

PH

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Jonathan Morton wrote:


> "Neil Williams"  wrote in message
> news:431f2387.1034898@news.tesco.net...
> 
> > Any station can issue any[1] ticket from anywhere to anywhere...
> 
> ...and *must* do so if requested, I believe.


And if they choose to take three quarters of an hour about it, while a 
long queue develops behind you, who will give up first?

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 20:57:03 +0000 (UTC), "Jonathan Morton"
 wrote:


>"Neil Williams"  wrote in message
>news:431f2387.1034898@news.tesco.net...
>
>> Any station can issue any[1] ticket from anywhere to anywhere...
>
>...and *must* do so if requested, I believe.


But there isn't a lot you can do if they won't!
-- 
Arthur Figgis                Surrey, UK

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Stevie D wrote:


> Roland Perry wrote:
> 
> > Something like that is not an "honest mistake". It is an absolutely 
> > fundamental principle of railway ticketing. The attitude it betrays, 
> > of falsely accusing people of "trying to beat the system", must be 
> > rooted out.
> 
> That's totally over the top, and unfair on the ticket clerk.
> 
> It could have been - and probably was - an honest mistake. 


There's a principle that the actions of a member of staff in the 
course of business are the actions of the company.  As such, the 
company has asserted to the customer that a perfectly legal 
undertaking would be "illegal" (presumably the implication is that the 
passenger would be committing fraud?), apparently in the hope of 
inducing the passenger to buy a more expensive ticket.  That would 
seem to be a serious allegation, carried out in the name of the 
company, with significant legal implications, and needs to be 
corrected at the earliest opportunity.  [Usual disclaimers apply]


> The ticket clerk probably did think that what he said was the truth.


Nevertheless, if the customer acted on the advice by buying a more 
expensive ticket, then the actions of this staff member appear to mean 
that the customer had been defrauded by the company.  I suppose that 
the company might want to do something about that - if not in the 
interests of the passenger, then at least to protect themselves from 
the obvious accusations.  IANAL and that was not legal advice.

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 20:56:10 +0000 (UTC), Jonathan Morton wrote in
<dfnk59$9vl$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, seen in
uk.railway:


> I simply don't believe there
> are ticket clerks out there who don't know the rules in this respect.


I do. You really wouldn't believe how poor the training is when it
comes to anything more than "To issue this ticket you push *this*
sequence of buttons".

Some of the revenue staff (on-train and in office) I've "interfaced"
with seem to have less knowledge than I had *before* I started my
commercial (ticket) training as a guard 15 years ago.

It's worrying.

-- 
Ross, a.k.a.
Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life)
Hon. Pres., National Soc. for the Encouragement for Cruelty to Dogboxes
Proud to be the target of various trolls, sock puppets and other idiots

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 17:34:54 GMT, Neil Williams wrote in
, seen in uk.railway:
[...]

> Mind you, that doesn't beat the Kundenverarschung[1] on offer in
> German banks, 
[...]
> [1] A nice phrase picked up from de.etc.bahn.misc when I was a regular
> poster when living over there, generally used to describe DB's latest
> silly scheme.  "Kunden" refers to customer(s), for those who don't
> speak German, and the other part of the word is exactly what it sounds
> like.


A rather more pointed version of our "Customer dis-service", really,
and rather more suited to the deliberate unwillingness to serve of
German "service industries" as opposed to the typically-British
disinterest/brush-'em-off inherent in "dis-service".

-- 
Ross, a.k.a.
Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life)
Hon. Pres., National Soc. for the Encouragement for Cruelty to Dogboxes
Proud to be the target of various trolls, sock puppets and other idiots

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 20:57:03 +0000 (UTC), Jonathan Morton wrote in
<dfnk6u$q6n$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, seen in
uk.railway:

> "Neil Williams"  wrote in message
> news:431f2387.1034898@news.tesco.net...
> 
> > Any station can issue any[1] ticket from anywhere to anywhere...
> 
> ...and *must* do so if requested, I believe.


You've snipped Neil's rather important caveat.

Until CT went Tribute, there was no point going to a West Midlands
suburban station (with certain exceptions) and asking for a remote
issue from a station not listed in the same Fares Manual as that
station, because they simply weren't supplied with any other fares
manuals. 

Which is why CT's station information signs carefully noted "Tickets
from this station and certain other stations" rather than "Tickets
from any station".
 
-- 
Ross, a.k.a.
Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life)
Hon. Pres., National Soc. for the Encouragement for Cruelty to Dogboxes
Proud to be the target of various trolls, sock puppets and other idiots

Ian.usenet@talk21.com wrote:


> Hear hear. That's why I am continuing to take the case of Gordon the
> Train Manager up with Virgin. Who is he next going to threaten with
> arrest for boarding at Lockerbie without a ticket?


That goes far beyond "really obnoxious" and you certainly should pursue it.

A while ago a conductor was reluctant to give me change for a 9 ticket
bought with a 5 rail voucher and a 5 note.  I think he genuinely believed
he wasn't supposed to give change in that situation (confusing it with
using a 10 voucher to buy a 9 ticket) but he *did* give me the change
after I politely insisted on it.  

In that case I complained to the company about their training but did not
specify the train I was on since I didn't think he should get in trouble
for it and I hadn't lost anything or been falsely accused.  That's the sort
of "light error" I had in mind.

> uk.railway:
>
>> I simply don't believe there
>> are ticket clerks out there who don't know the rules in this respect.
>
> I do. You really wouldn't believe how poor the training is when it
> comes to anything more than "To issue this ticket you push *this*
> sequence of buttons".
>
> Some of the revenue staff (on-train and in office) I've "interfaced"
> with seem to have less knowledge than I had *before* I started my
> commercial (ticket) training as a guard 15 years ago.
>
> It's worrying.


Tell me about it...... I'm sure I know about the ticketing system then the 
staff.... I have taken to carrying a print out of Section H of the NFM, as 
about 9 in 10 employees seem to think a Gold Card 1st upgrade is only at the 
weekends.

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 17:30:34 GMT, wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
Williams) wrote:


>On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 08:19:51 +0100, Roland Perry 
>wrote:
>
>>In message , at 22:36:54 on Tue, 6 Sep 
>>2005, Neil Williams  remarked:
>>>I've used a GMPTE CountyCard together with
>>>CDRs without the train stopping at the boundary a few times but never
>>>been questioned (at the time I thought it counted as a season ticket).
>>
>>The "boundary" in London isn't always a station. So the trains don't 
>>stop there, almost by definition.
>
>Sorry, didn't read the OP properly.
>
>London Travelcards (of whatever kind, season or otherwise) and
>outbound Boundary Zone singles/returns are a special case.  The train
>does *not* have to stop at this fictitious boundary station in any
>case involving such tickets; the only restriction is that you can't
>use former IC operators (except, it would seem, the IC part of One
>Anglia).
>

Anglia didn't allow use of travelcards on the Liverpool Street -
Norwich trains. Announcements were made on the train to this effect
before departure - as I once discovered when travelling from LS to
Bury St Edmunds on a travelcard + single from Manningtree, had to get
off and find something else to travel on (this is where I discovered
the "train must stop where tickets join" rule. I did think of
travelling to Colchester but apparently this was Verboten. Pity the
man on the gate at Liverpool Street hadn't noticed.






>It's a shame these regulations do not apply elsewhere.  It would be
>nice if I could buy a "Travelcard to Manchester", for example, other
>than PlusBus, rather than having to purchase on arrival.
>
>Neil

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 22:46:09, "Patrick Hearn"
 wrote:

>>
>> (which TOC was it? I'd like to put them right!)
>
>Thanks Tony (and other posters)
>
>FGW, Nailsea


ITYF Nailsea is run by Wessex Trains!

Paul Harley

-- 
Remove "eeek" to contact me!

Ross  writes:


> Until CT went Tribute, there was no point going to a West Midlands
> suburban station (with certain exceptions) and asking for a remote
> issue from a station not listed in the same Fares Manual as that
> station, because they simply weren't supplied with any other fares
> manuals. 


That should not stop them from issuing the tickets. When I first
started work I was sent on a 3 week course in London for which I was
issued with 3 warrants, 1 for an Ordinary Return (valid 3 months IIRC)
from my local station to London (used for the first journey to London
and the last home) and 2 for Weekend Returns from London to my local
station (for travelling home for the intermediate weekends). On
presentation of the weekend return warrant to Waterloo ticket office
on the first Friday afternoon it took them about 20mins to issue the
ticket as they had to phone my local station to find out the fare!
This was despite the fares for the Southwestern Division of Southern
Region (as it then was) be set by Waterloo. Luckily in those days, the
ticket office at my local station was manned for 2 shifts every day.

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 16:47:34 +0100, Graham Murray wrote in
, seen in uk.railway:

> Ross  writes:
> 
> > Until CT went Tribute, there was no point going to a West Midlands
> > suburban station (with certain exceptions) and asking for a remote
> > issue from a station not listed in the same Fares Manual as that
> > station, because they simply weren't supplied with any other fares
> > manuals. 
> 
> That should not stop them from issuing the tickets. 


CT's policy then was that it only issued tickets from remote stations
for which it had fares available. Which meant that regardless of
'shoulds' and 'oughts' (and I'm a believer in tickets from any
stations *ought* to be available from any ticket office), tickets were
not issued.

That's not to say such tickets weren't issued by helpful staff doing
things they weren't supposed to, of course.


[...]

> presentation of the weekend return warrant to Waterloo ticket office
> on the first Friday afternoon it took them about 20mins to issue the
> ticket as they had to phone my local station to find out the fare!
> This was despite the fares for the Southwestern Division of Southern
> Region (as it then was) be set by Waterloo. 


You're talking about BR days. Privatisation changed things
drastically.

-- 
Ross, a.k.a.
Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life)
Hon. Pres., National Soc. for the Encouragement for Cruelty to Dogboxes
Proud to be the target of various trolls, sock puppets and other idiots

"Paul Harley"  wrote in message
news:q3c0i1d733akbe8bfll687h4rl5i388ave@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 22:46:09, "Patrick Hearn"
>  wrote:
> >>
> >> (which TOC was it? I'd like to put them right!)
> >
> >Thanks Tony (and other posters)
> >
> >FGW, Nailsea
>
> ITYF Nailsea is run by Wessex Trains!
>
> Paul Harley
>
> -- 
> Remove "eeek" to contact me!


Whoops> Correct. It was a FGW service though, and I had presupposed it was
FGW TTIs to which he was referring.

PH

"Patrick Hearn"  wrote in message
news:dfq8re$d3u$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
> "Paul Harley"  wrote in message
> news:q3c0i1d733akbe8bfll687h4rl5i388ave@4ax.com...
> > On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 22:46:09, "Patrick Hearn"
> >  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> (which TOC was it? I'd like to put them right!)
> > >
> > >Thanks Tony (and other posters)
> > >
> > >FGW, Nailsea
> >
> > ITYF Nailsea is run by Wessex Trains!
> >
> > Paul Harley
> >
> > -- 
> > Remove "eeek" to contact me!
>
> Whoops> Correct. It was a FGW service though, and I had presupposed it was
> FGW TTIs to which he was referring.


So was it FGW TTIs or Wessex TTIs? Just clarify for me before I berate the
wrong MD!

Tony

Patrick Hearn wrote:

If this happens again ask for a copy of the NCoC (should be available at 
ticket offices) and refer the clerk to condition "C. USE OF TICKETS, 17. 
A combination of tickets" on page 8.

Better still carry a copy of the NCoC around with you when traveling.


> FGW, Nailsea
> 


Now there's a suprise. I've had numerous problems and hassle from FGW 
WRT ticket validilty before. I strongly advise you to take the matter up 
with their customer services department, also copying a letter to ATOC 
(who are very helpful).

Philip.