Hi!  I want to put a lock on my back gate.  I want for it to be keyed
with a 'yale' style key (whatever the correct name for that is).  I
need for it to be lockable/openable from both sides. Now, here come the
curve balls...

The backset of the lock needs to be greater than 65mm preferably more
though, to be fair 100mm would be enough :-)

Because this is just a gate (and the 'Z' frame is only about 1" think)
it will be difficult to fit a standard mortice lock. So I'm thinking
that a rim lock may be best - or, at least, quite a thin lock.

Because I don't want to carry a chunking great chubb key around just
for my back gate, I'm thinking that a suitable new fangled euro lock
may be available

If possible, the lock would also have a normal handle for opening the
gate too (does this make it a 'sash lock'?).

Any ideas out there?

Cheers

Phil

In article , pjh1
@tesco.net says...

> Hi!  I want to put a lock on my back gate.  I want for it to be keyed
> with a 'yale' style key (whatever the correct name for that is).  I
> need for it to be lockable/openable from both sides. Now, here come the
> curve balls...
> 
> The backset of the lock needs to be greater than 65mm preferably more
> though, to be fair 100mm would be enough :-)
> 
> Because this is just a gate (and the 'Z' frame is only about 1" think)
> it will be difficult to fit a standard mortice lock. So I'm thinking
> that a rim lock may be best - or, at least, quite a thin lock.
> 
> Because I don't want to carry a chunking great chubb key around just
> for my back gate, I'm thinking that a suitable new fangled euro lock
> may be available
> 
> If possible, the lock would also have a normal handle for opening the
> gate too (does this make it a 'sash lock'?).
> 
> Any ideas out there?
> 

As nobody seems to have any good ideas here's mine:

Mount a Euro mortice lock on the back of the gate not on the frame, 
boxed in with a bit of 12mm ply and a few strips of wood of suitable 
thickness.  Rather than slotting into the gatepost the latch bears on 
the end of a sliding bolt, which can be moved from either side of the 
gate using a pin that slides in a slot (cut in the gate on the front, 
and the 12mm ply on the back).  Thus when the mortice lock is open the 
bolt may be slid open or closed, but when the mortice lock is closed it 
holds the bolt closed.

In article ,
pjh1@tesco.net writes

>Hi!  I want to put a lock on my back gate.  I want for it to be keyed
>with a 'yale' style key (whatever the correct name for that is).  I
>need for it to be lockable/openable from both sides. Now, here come the
>curve balls...
>
>The backset of the lock needs to be greater than 65mm preferably more
>though, to be fair 100mm would be enough :-)
>
>Because this is just a gate (and the 'Z' frame is only about 1" think)
>it will be difficult to fit a standard mortice lock. So I'm thinking
>that a rim lock may be best - or, at least, quite a thin lock.
>
>Because I don't want to carry a chunking great chubb key around just
>for my back gate, I'm thinking that a suitable new fangled euro lock
>may be available
>
>If possible, the lock would also have a normal handle for opening the
>gate too (does this make it a 'sash lock'?).


If the light key is the leading factor then a euro cylinder sashlock is probably
your closest fit but be aware of a few snaffus:
The sashlock is designed for a well made, close tolerance door so won't work
as well in a gate where it may be a sloppy fit and subject to movement giving
poor latch action & reduced security.
The shortest double keyed euro cylinder is about 65mm and it is a good idea
not to have too much poking out of the door, so you'll likely need sandwich
plates to beef up the thickness on both sides.
I haven't seen one of these with the backset you describe, a 3" lockcase will
have a backset of about 2 1/2", just under your 65mm requirement so you'll
need to work on that.
Be prepared to lube the lock/cylinder a lot as they will see a lot more moister
on the gate than they would in a domestic door.

If you're using this gate a lot or taking the key with you when you go out I can
see that a small key and ease of use is a important but if the gate is less
travelled then you may prefer to use a normal gate type latch backed up with
a surface mounted bolt and padlock. This would be on the inside but could be
accessed from the outside by a small cutout in the door, y'know a hole just
big enough for a hand and the padlock dangling half way into the hole.

Here's a cheap source for locks & cylinders:
http://www.londontools.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Mortice_Locks.html
UNION MORTICE 78mm & 65mm Sashlock Case Only Ref: J-L2249, half way
down the page 16.25
http://www.londontools.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Euro_Profile_Cylinders.html
ZONE CEN Grade 4 Euro Double Profile Cylinders--1500series Ref: 1500 DP,
at the bottom 8.87

If you can put up with a large key then a surface mounted sashlock could
work:
http://www.londontools.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Rim_Locks.html
Union Lever Rim Deadlock Ref: J-1445-BJ-51, about a third of the way down
the page 10.67

See also Union Drawback Rim Lock Ref: J-1332-WE on the same page (half
way down). It is expensive (38.78), fails your backset and is slam locking (no
latch handle) but it is suitable for thin doors and looks as if it might work with
some effort.
-- 
fred

fred wrote:

> In article ,
> pjh1@tesco.net writes
> >Hi!  I want to put a lock on my back gate.  I want for it to be keyed
> >with a 'yale' style key (whatever the correct name for that is).  I
> >need for it to be lockable/openable from both sides. Now, here come the
> >curve balls...
> >
> >The backset of the lock needs to be greater than 65mm preferably more
> >though, to be fair 100mm would be enough :-)
> >
> >Because this is just a gate (and the 'Z' frame is only about 1" think)
> >it will be difficult to fit a standard mortice lock. So I'm thinking
> >that a rim lock may be best - or, at least, quite a thin lock.
> >
> >Because I don't want to carry a chunking great chubb key around just
> >for my back gate, I'm thinking that a suitable new fangled euro lock
> >may be available
> >
> >If possible, the lock would also have a normal handle for opening the
> >gate too (does this make it a 'sash lock'?).
>
> If the light key is the leading factor then a euro cylinder sashlock is probably
> your closest fit but be aware of a few snaffus:
> The sashlock is designed for a well made, close tolerance door so won't work
> as well in a gate where it may be a sloppy fit and subject to movement giving
> poor latch action & reduced security.
> The shortest double keyed euro cylinder is about 65mm and it is a good idea
> not to have too much poking out of the door, so you'll likely need sandwich
> plates to beef up the thickness on both sides.
> I haven't seen one of these with the backset you describe, a 3" lockcase will
> have a backset of about 2 1/2", just under your 65mm requirement so you'll
> need to work on that.
> Be prepared to lube the lock/cylinder a lot as they will see a lot more moister
> on the gate than they would in a domestic door.
>
> If you're using this gate a lot or taking the key with you when you go out I can
> see that a small key and ease of use is a important but if the gate is less
> travelled then you may prefer to use a normal gate type latch backed up with
> a surface mounted bolt and padlock. This would be on the inside but could be
> accessed from the outside by a small cutout in the door, y'know a hole just
> big enough for a hand and the padlock dangling half way into the hole.
>
> Here's a cheap source for locks & cylinders:
> http://www.londontools.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Mortice_Locks.html
> UNION MORTICE 78mm & 65mm Sashlock Case Only Ref: J-L2249, half way
> down the page £16.25
> http://www.londontools.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Euro_Profile_Cylinders.html
> ZONE CEN Grade 4 Euro Double Profile Cylinders--1500series Ref: 1500 DP,
> at the bottom £8.87
>
> If you can put up with a large key then a surface mounted sashlock could
> work:
> http://www.londontools.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Rim_Locks.html
> Union Lever Rim Deadlock Ref: J-1445-BJ-51, about a third of the way down
> the page £10.67
>
> See also Union Drawback Rim Lock Ref: J-1332-WE on the same page (half
> way down). It is expensive (£38.78), fails your backset and is slam locking (no
> latch handle) but it is suitable for thin doors and looks as if it might work with
> some effort.
> --
> fred


I do want a small key so I can carry it with me.  Thanks for the snaffu
list I will be wary of those now, I particularly appreciate the warning
of the minimum shortness of a cylinder.  I'll take a look at the other
locks you mention but I think I need to think longer on this problem if
a >65mm backset lock is not available.

Thanks for the quick response.

Philip

Excellent idea I liked it a lot until I saw I had to cut a slot for the
bolt.  I would prefer avoiding cutting any big holes through the gate
if possible which is why I wanted the big backset. I am now wondering
if I could attache the bolt to the part of the lock which goes in and
out with the key movement (whatever that is called!) and thus avoid the
slot.  I'll think on this a bit longer.

Thanks for the quick response

Philip

In article , pjh1
@tesco.net says...

> Excellent idea I liked it a lot until I saw I had to cut a slot for the
> bolt.  I would prefer avoiding cutting any big holes through the gate
> if possible which is why I wanted the big backset. I am now wondering
> if I could attache the bolt to the part of the lock which goes in and
> out with the key movement (whatever that is called!) and thus avoid the
> slot.  I'll think on this a bit longer.
> 

You could use a rotating handle for the bolt instead of a sliding one, 
but it would involve a bit more engineering.

What about an electric one?