In Wikipedia's article on the Channel Tunnel
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel), there is a paragraph
which states:

"There have been proposals for local passenger rail services linking
Kent with towns in the Pas de Calais, along the lines of the local
trains that run between Zealand and southern Sweden across the Oresund
Bridge, but such a service remains unlikely."

What kind of service was proposed? Was it something along the lines of
the "12:34 Ashford to Boulogne-Ville calling at Westenhanger, Sandling,
Calais-Frethun, Marquise Rinxent, Wimille-Wimeureux,
Boulogne-Tintellerie and Boulogne-Ville"?

Cheers

Rich

"Rich"  a crit dans le message de
news:1125920398.688548.241120@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

> In Wikipedia's article on the Channel Tunnel
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel), there is a paragraph
> which states:
>
> "There have been proposals for local passenger rail services linking
> Kent with towns in the Pas de Calais, along the lines of the local
> trains that run between Zealand and southern Sweden across the Oresund
> Bridge, but such a service remains unlikely."
>
> What kind of service was proposed? Was it something along the lines of
> the "12:34 Ashford to Boulogne-Ville calling at Westenhanger, Sandling,
> Calais-Frethun, Marquise Rinxent, Wimille-Wimeureux,
> Boulogne-Tintellerie and Boulogne-Ville"?
>

I am not aware of any serious consideration of a possible 'local passenger
rail service linking Kent with towns in the Pas de Calais', perhaps because
the situation there is very different from that at the the 'Oresund bridge'.
AIUI the key advantages of the latter is that the cross-border line serves
Copenhagen and its airport, and that both the Swedish and Danish languages
are widely understood on both sides of the border.

Nearly all the other local cross-border rail services in Europe run no
further than the first station after the border even where that does not
involve a major linguistic, technological or administrative barrier. Perhaps
the most remarkable exceptions are the Swiss border lines - eg Geneva -
Annemasse and Geneva - Bellegarde, which show that such operation is indeed
possible if really wanted.

Regards,

- Alan (in Brussels)

In message 
          "Alan \(in Brussels\)"  wrote:


> 
> "Rich"  a crit dans le message de
> news:1125920398.688548.241120@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > In Wikipedia's article on the Channel Tunnel
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel), there is a paragraph
> > which states:
> >
> > "There have been proposals for local passenger rail services linking
> > Kent with towns in the Pas de Calais, along the lines of the local
> > trains that run between Zealand and southern Sweden across the Oresund
> > Bridge, but such a service remains unlikely."
> >
> > What kind of service was proposed? Was it something along the lines of
> > the "12:34 Ashford to Boulogne-Ville calling at Westenhanger, Sandling,
> > Calais-Frethun, Marquise Rinxent, Wimille-Wimeureux,
> > Boulogne-Tintellerie and Boulogne-Ville"?
> >
> I am not aware of any serious consideration of a possible 'local passenger
> rail service linking Kent with towns in the Pas de Calais', perhaps because
> the situation there is very different from that at the the 'Oresund
> bridge'.


This sounds like the proposal from Kent County council a while back to
introduce such a service to encourage commuters to live in France and commute
to London and elsewhere from there.

-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 17:08:19 +0200, "Alan \(in Brussels\)"
 wrote:


>
>"Rich"  a crit dans le message de
>news:1125920398.688548.241120@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> In Wikipedia's article on the Channel Tunnel
>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel), there is a paragraph
>> which states:
>>
>> "There have been proposals for local passenger rail services linking
>> Kent with towns in the Pas de Calais, along the lines of the local
>> trains that run between Zealand and southern Sweden across the Oresund
>> Bridge, but such a service remains unlikely."
>>
>> What kind of service was proposed? Was it something along the lines of
>> the "12:34 Ashford to Boulogne-Ville calling at Westenhanger, Sandling,
>> Calais-Frethun, Marquise Rinxent, Wimille-Wimeureux,
>> Boulogne-Tintellerie and Boulogne-Ville"?
>>
>I am not aware of any serious consideration of a possible 'local passenger
>rail service linking Kent with towns in the Pas de Calais', perhaps because
>the situation there is very different from that at the the 'Oresund bridge'.
>AIUI the key advantages of the latter is that the cross-border line serves
>Copenhagen and its airport, and that both the Swedish and Danish languages
>are widely understood on both sides of the border.
>
>Nearly all the other local cross-border rail services in Europe run no
>further than the first station after the border even where that does not
>involve a major linguistic, technological or administrative barrier. Perhaps
>the most remarkable exceptions are the Swiss border lines - eg Geneva -
>Annemasse and Geneva - Bellegarde, which show that such operation is indeed
>possible if really wanted.


Most trains that run to the next stop across the border are owned
by the country it came from. Eurostar is a consortium of France,
the UK and Belgium.

It's more like Thalys.

    ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
    *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
    * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Alan (in Brussels) wrote:

[...]


> Nearly all the other local cross-border rail services in Europe run no
> further than the first station after the border even where that does not
> involve a major linguistic, technological or administrative barrier. Perhaps
> the most remarkable exceptions are the Swiss border lines - eg Geneva -
> Annemasse and Geneva - Bellegarde, which show that such operation is indeed
> possible if really wanted.


More planned:

http://www.regio-s-bahn.ch ( http://www.herzstueck-basel.ch )
http://www.ceva.ch
http://www.ti.ch/dt/DPT/SDT/Temi/MendrisioVarese/default.htm

Even more amazingly, the same operator runs non-stop such
borders as Gschenen-Airolo, Sierre-Salgesch and even Biel-Bienne.

Graeme Wall wrote:

> This sounds like the proposal from Kent County council a while back to
> introduce such a service to encourage commuters to live in France and commute
> to London and elsewhere from there.


Why would Kent CC want to encourage people to move to France and
commute to London - this would involve them neither being a resident in
nor doing business in Kent.

Of course Kent CC might have been floating the idea of a 'local'
chunnel service to encourage French tourists and/or commuters into the
county, though this cuts both ways (Kentish tourists heading towards
France etc).

"Mizter T"  wrote in message 
news:1125949538.606801.196760@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> Graeme Wall wrote:
>> This sounds like the proposal from Kent County council a while back to
>> introduce such a service to encourage commuters to live in France and 
>> commute
>> to London and elsewhere from there.
>
> Why would Kent CC want to encourage people to move to France and
> commute to London - this would involve them neither being a resident in
> nor doing business in Kent.
>
> Of course Kent CC might have been floating the idea of a 'local'
> chunnel service to encourage French tourists and/or commuters into the
> county, though this cuts both ways (Kentish tourists heading towards
> France etc).
>

More to avoid the ever-increasing urbanisation of the Ashford area, I 
believe.
Brian

BH Williams wrote:

> <snip>
> More to avoid the ever-increasing urbanisation of the Ashford area, I
> believe.
> Brian


Too late - the south east is sinking under the shear mass of humanity!

I do, however, take your point. Perhaps, what with Kent residents
commuting into London, Kent CC was looking to the northern coast of
France as somewhere for people who work in Kent- but can't afford to
reside in Kent - to live. On second thoughts, perhaps not.

Bing serious, I remain to be convinced that this was ever anything
other than the result of an ancient brainstorming session by some of
Kent CC's economists or planners.

In message 
          "Mizter T"  wrote:


> Graeme Wall wrote:
> > This sounds like the proposal from Kent County council a while back to
> > introduce such a service to encourage commuters to live in France and
> > commute to London and elsewhere from there.
> 
> Why would Kent CC want to encourage people to move to France and
> commute to London - this would involve them neither being a resident in
> nor doing business in Kent.


Saves KCC having to find land to build houses on and having to find funding
for all the incidental costs, health, education etc, that those extra house
would need.


> 
> Of course Kent CC might have been floating the idea of a 'local'
> chunnel service to encourage French tourists and/or commuters into the
> county, though this cuts both ways (Kentish tourists heading towards
> France etc).
> 


They might....

-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

Graeme Wall wrote:

> <snip>
> > Of course Kent CC might have been floating the idea of a 'local'
> > chunnel service to encourage French tourists and/or commuters into the
> > county, though this cuts both ways (Kentish tourists heading towards
> > France etc).
> >
>
> They might....


OK, I expressed myself in what seems like an astonishingly naive
manner! I was just tapping out a quick post and trying to get the gist
of my point across.

Anyhow, 'chunnel locals' don't seem to be on the cards in reality.

> Too late - the south east is sinking under the shear mass of humanity!


*Shear* mass?  It's going to break off and fall into the sea? :-)
-- 
Mark Brader, Toronto         "It's the almost correct solutions that
msb@vex.net                   are the most dangerous..."  -- Dave Eisen

In message 
          "Mizter T"  wrote:


> BH Williams wrote:
> > <snip>
> > More to avoid the ever-increasing urbanisation of the Ashford area, I
> > believe.
> > Brian
> 
> Too late - the south east is sinking under the shear mass of humanity!
> 
> I do, however, take your point. Perhaps, what with Kent residents
> commuting into London, Kent CC was looking to the northern coast of
> France as somewhere for people who work in Kent- but can't afford to
> reside in Kent - to live. On second thoughts, perhaps not.


That was their thoughts exactly

> 
> Bing serious, I remain to be convinced that this was ever anything
> other than the result of an ancient brainstorming session by some of
> Kent CC's economists or planners.
> 


Some 2 or 3 years ago IIRC.

-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

Alan (in Brussels) schrieb:


> Nearly all the other local cross-border rail services in Europe run no
> further than the first station after the border even where that does not
> involve a major linguistic, technological or administrative barrier. Perhaps
> the most remarkable exceptions are the Swiss border lines - eg Geneva -
> Annemasse and Geneva - Bellegarde, which show that such operation is indeed
> possible if really wanted.


Vogtlandbahn is an exception.
Furthermore, we will see through trains at Bayerisch Eisenstein and 
Tonder[DK].
There is a Mulhouse - Frick service around Basel. 
http://www.ter-sncf.com/Images/13%20Mse%20Bav%20Frick_tcm19-16130.pdf

But indeed it is a problem to get technical permits from both countries 
for international services. They might be limited to the border section 
or require double equipment, which makes trains expensive, and you might 
try to limit their use to the border region and to make passengers 
change to cheaper trains while travelling inland.

Regards, ULF

Ulf Kutzner wrote:


> But indeed it is a problem to get technical permits from both countries 
> for international services. They might be limited to the border section 
> or require double equipment, which makes trains expensive, and you might 
> try to limit their use to the border region and to make passengers 
> change to cheaper trains while travelling inland.


Euregiobahn around Aachen operates into the Netherlands from Germany
for two stations. The DMUs have special equipment. Regional trains
Trier-Luxembourg have more than one stop in each country, but each
endpoint is somewhat near the border.
And further north on the Dutch/German border, Groningen-Leer, but
again not far into Germany.

Klaus

"Graeme Wall"  wrote in message 
news:a26dd0a54d%rail@greywall.demon.co.uk...

> In message 
>          "Mizter T"  wrote:
>
>> BH Williams wrote:
>> > <snip>
>> > More to avoid the ever-increasing urbanisation of the Ashford area, I
>> > believe.
>> > Brian
>>
>> Too late - the south east is sinking under the shear mass of humanity!
>>
>> I do, however, take your point. Perhaps, what with Kent residents
>> commuting into London, Kent CC was looking to the northern coast of
>> France as somewhere for people who work in Kent- but can't afford to
>> reside in Kent - to live. On second thoughts, perhaps not.
>
> That was their thoughts exactly
>>
>> Bing serious, I remain to be convinced that this was ever anything
>> other than the result of an ancient brainstorming session by some of
>> Kent CC's economists or planners.
>>
>
> Some 2 or 3 years ago IIRC.
>
> -- 
> Graeme Wall
> This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
> Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

And still under active consideration, I believe. If it did come to fruition, 
then trains would be from Frethun. Stock would presumably be E* of one sort 
or another- journey times to London would be comparable with current 
Folkestone- London ones. House prices in the Calais-Boulogne region are a 
fraction of their equivalents in the UK. Part of the target market might be 
some of the 100+ French companies in the Ashford area.
Brian
Brian

Alan (in Brussels) wrote:


> Nearly all the other local cross-border rail services in Europe run no
> further than the first station after the border even where that does not
> involve a major linguistic, technological or administrative barrier.


I know your "nearly all" may cover this, but the Rhin Metro services
between Strasbourg and Offenburg serve a fair number of stations on
both sides.

Ian

>
> "There have been proposals for local passenger rail services linking
> Kent with towns in the Pas de Calais, along the lines of the local
> trains that run between Zealand and southern Sweden across the Oresund
> Bridge, but such a service remains unlikely."
>


I can't see the politics ever being right for this.

There is a significant proportion of people in this country who would
be more than happy to see the tunnel bricked up and this proportion
seems to grow higher the nearer to France you get.

Also, the current government seem to be completely paranoid about
people bringing in cheap (low tax) booze and fags which I guess would
be a key market for any 'Booze Cruise Flyer'.

allan tracy wrote:

> Also, the current government seem to be completely paranoid about
> people bringing in cheap (low tax) booze and fags which I guess would
> be a key market for any 'Booze Cruise Flyer'.


Really? There used to be a "local" bus service from Canterbury to Dover 
and to Calais via the ferry. Of course, you can now get Eurolines 
coaches to Paris, Amsterdam, Cologne, Frankfurt, etc. from Canterbury.

-- 
Jonathan Stott
Canterbury Weather: http://www.canterburyweather.co.uk/
Reverse my e-mail address to reply by e-mail

"allan tracy"  wrote in message 
news:1126032438.424877.247920@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> >
>> "There have been proposals for local passenger rail services linking
>> Kent with towns in the Pas de Calais, along the lines of the local
>> trains that run between Zealand and southern Sweden across the Oresund
>> Bridge, but such a service remains unlikely."
>>
>
> I can't see the politics ever being right for this.
>
> There is a significant proportion of people in this country who would
> be more than happy to see the tunnel bricked up and this proportion
> seems to grow higher the nearer to France you get.
>
> Also, the current government seem to be completely paranoid about
> people bringing in cheap (low tax) booze and fags which I guess would
> be a key market for any 'Booze Cruise Flyer'.
>

Fags are barely cheaper in France than UK- most of the more serious smokers 
amongst my French colleagues go to Belgium for their ciggies now. As for 
booze, barely possible to bring in serious quantities without a vehicle. In 
any event, the trains under discussion would be services running 
early-morning from France- hardly likely to get any booze-runners then.
Brian

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:13:23 +0100, Jonathan Stott 
wrote:


>Really? There used to be a "local" bus service from Canterbury to Dover 
>and to Calais via the ferry. Of course, you can now get Eurolines 
>coaches to Paris, Amsterdam, Cologne, Frankfurt, etc. from Canterbury.


There was also one via the Tunnel operated by Connex, but it was
scuppered by not being able to get guaranteed slots.

The difference with (most of) the ferries is that you can travel as a
foot passenger, so the bus isn't really necessary.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

"Neil Williams"  wrote in message 
news:431e14b4.983874@news.tesco.net...

> On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:13:23 +0100, Jonathan Stott 
> wrote:
>
> The difference with (most of) the ferries is that you can travel as a
> foot passenger, so the bus isn't really necessary.
>



Not sure about "most of".  From Kent,  Dover - Calais is the only foot 
passenger ferry.  Ferries to Ostend, Dunkirk and Bolougne are only for 
vehicles and their passengers - as indeed are the night time sailing between 
Dover and Calais.

James

James wrote:

> "Neil Williams"  wrote in message
> >
> > The difference with (most of) the ferries is that you can travel as a
> > foot passenger, so the bus isn't really necessary.
> >
>
>
> Not sure about "most of".  From Kent,  Dover - Calais is the only foot
> passenger ferry.



Doesn't Newhaven--Dieppe take foot passengers too?

wrote in message 
news:1126089810.239828.134000@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
>> Not sure about "most of".  From Kent,  Dover - Calais is the only foot
>> passenger ferry.
>
>
> Doesn't Newhaven--Dieppe take foot passengers too?
>


Yes - I was restricting my comments to Kent where 3 of the 4 ferry routes do 
not take foot passengers.  (Newhaven is in East Sussex).

James

In uk.railway BH Williams  wrote:

> And still under active consideration, I believe. If it did come to
> fruition, then trains would be from Frethun. Stock would presumably be E*
> of one sort or another- journey times to London would be comparable with
> current Folkestone- London ones. House prices in the Calais-Boulogne
> region are a fraction of their equivalents in the UK. Part of the target
> market might be some of the 100+ French companies in the Ashford area.


If getting stock is an issue, how much would it cost to sort out the NoL
Eurostars that are sitting around growing weeds or whatever they do (nice
holiday down the Thames the other month?).  Given that tunnel stock seems to
be in demand and presumably someone would like to get some revenue out of
them, it seems rather odd they're rotting away...

Theo

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 07:35:42 +0100, "James"
 wrote:

>"Neil Williams"  wrote in message 
>news:431e14b4.983874@news.tesco.net...
>> On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:13:23 +0100, Jonathan Stott 
>> wrote:
>>
>> The difference with (most of) the ferries is that you can travel as a
>> foot passenger, so the bus isn't really necessary.
>
>Not sure about "most of".  From Kent,  Dover - Calais is the only foot 
>passenger ferry.  Ferries to Ostend, Dunkirk and Bolougne are only for 
>vehicles and their passengers - as indeed are the night time sailing between 
>Dover and Calais.


Although I suppose as most crossings are to Calais, the majority of
ferries *do* allow foot passengers.

Richard.

In the message news:Q3B*qv8Xq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
"Theo Markettos" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:


> In uk.railway BH Williams  wrote:
> > And still under active consideration, I believe. If it did come to
> > fruition, then trains would be from Frethun. Stock would presumably be
E*
> > of one sort or another- journey times to London would be comparable with
> > current Folkestone- London ones. House prices in the Calais-Boulogne
> > region are a fraction of their equivalents in the UK. Part of the target
> > market might be some of the 100+ French companies in the Ashford area.
>
> If getting stock is an issue, how much would it cost to sort out the NoL
> Eurostars that are sitting around growing weeds or whatever they do (nice
> holiday down the Thames the other month?).  Given that tunnel stock seems
to
> be in demand and presumably someone would like to get some revenue out of
> them, it seems rather odd they're rotting away...
>

The current demand seems to be far too small to justify its own dedicated
equipment. According to Newsletter No. 16  (June 2005) , less than 0.1 % of
the 270 thousand work-people who cross the French border daily - just 240 -
currently cross the Channel : "Les flux de travailleurs transfrontaliers en
2005" in
http://www.espaces-transfrontaliers.org/docdivers/newsletter/newsletter16.pdf
(text capture blocked).  But of course this may just be because suitable
services are not available...

Regards,

- Alan (in Brussels)

Further to my previous message, the URL of a summary (in English) of the
study to which this thread refers, and  a map showing the route of the
envisaged cross-Channel TER,  are on-line at:
http://www.espaces-transfrontaliers.org/document/synthese_transmanche_EN.pdf
http://www.espaces-transfrontaliers.org/carte/transmanche7.pdf

Regards,

- Alan (in Brussels)

"Alan (in Brussels)"  wrote in message 
news:nKidnRjGEv1pGLzeRVnyhw@scarlet.biz...

> In the message news:Q3B*qv8Xq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> "Theo Markettos" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> In uk.railway BH Williams  wrote:
>> > And still under active consideration, I believe. If it did come to
>> > fruition, then trains would be from Frethun. Stock would presumably be
> E*
>> > of one sort or another- journey times to London would be comparable 
>> > with
>> > current Folkestone- London ones. House prices in the Calais-Boulogne
>> > region are a fraction of their equivalents in the UK. Part of the 
>> > target
>> > market might be some of the 100+ French companies in the Ashford area.
>>
>> If getting stock is an issue, how much would it cost to sort out the NoL
>> Eurostars that are sitting around growing weeds or whatever they do (nice
>> holiday down the Thames the other month?).  Given that tunnel stock seems
> to
>> be in demand and presumably someone would like to get some revenue out of
>> them, it seems rather odd they're rotting away...
>>
> The current demand seems to be far too small to justify its own dedicated
> equipment. According to Newsletter No. 16  (June 2005) , less than 0.1 % 
> of
> the 270 thousand work-people who cross the French border daily - just 
> 240 -
> currently cross the Channel : "Les flux de travailleurs transfrontaliers 
> en
> 2005" in
> http://www.espaces-transfrontaliers.org/docdivers/newsletter/newsletter16.pdf
> (text capture blocked).  But of course this may just be because suitable
> services are not available...
>
> Regards,
>
> - Alan (in Brussels)
>
>

I wonder if the quoted numbers for the UK include those of my colleagues who 
travel to the other terminal to work and if so, how do they calculate it? 
This week, for example, I have done 50% of my shifts in France, but in the 
preceding block 0%.
Brian

"BH Williams"  a crit dans le message de
news:dfs4bk$28i$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...

>
> "Alan (in Brussels)"  wrote in message
> news:nKidnRjGEv1pGLzeRVnyhw@scarlet.biz...


< SNIP>


> >>
> > The current demand seems to be far too small to justify its own
dedicated
> > equipment. According to Newsletter No. 16  (June 2005) , less than 0.1 %
> > of
> > the 270 thousand work-people who cross the French border daily - just
> > 240 -
> > currently cross the Channel : "Les flux de travailleurs transfrontaliers
> > en
> > 2005" in
> >

http://www.espaces-transfrontaliers.org/docdivers/newsletter/newsletter16.pdf

> > (text capture blocked).  But of course this may just be because suitable
> > services are not available...
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > - Alan (in Brussels)
> >
> >
> I wonder if the quoted numbers for the UK include those of my colleagues
who
> travel to the other terminal to work and if so, how do they calculate it?
> This week, for example, I have done 50% of my shifts in France, but in the
> preceding block 0%.
> Brian
>

I don't think so. IIRC such figures normally exclude employees in the
transport business - and anyway travel into OR out of  the CT area is *not*
cross-border, but only into it on one side and out on the other. And the
data I quoted was only workpeople who live in France but travel daily to
work abroad. The numbers of those doing the opposite are obviously not
necessarily similar. AFAIK few British people would commute abroad daily if
they could help it, and we're always hearing how high unemployment in France
is ;-)

Regards,

- Alan (in Brussels)

Theo Markettos wrote:

> In uk.railway BH Williams  wrote:
> > And still under active consideration, I believe. If it did come to
> > fruition, then trains would be from Frethun. Stock would presumably be E*
> > of one sort or another- journey times to London would be comparable with
> > current Folkestone- London ones. House prices in the Calais-Boulogne
> > region are a fraction of their equivalents in the UK. Part of the target
> > market might be some of the 100+ French companies in the Ashford area.
>
> If getting stock is an issue, how much would it cost to sort out the NoL
> Eurostars that are sitting around growing weeds or whatever they do (nice
> holiday down the Thames the other month?).  Given that tunnel stock seems to
> be in demand and presumably someone would like to get some revenue out of
> them, it seems rather odd they're rotting away...


AIUI most of them are no longer rotting away (though please correct me
if I'm wrong) - GNER are leasing 3 or 4(?), 2 are allocated to testing
CTRL (admittedly not glamorous or revenue-earning work, but at least
they are moving), and there are a couple that I think have been robbed
for spares.

allan tracy wrote:


> There is a significant proportion of people in this country who would
> be more than happy to see the tunnel bricked up


Your figures?

-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p13857124.html
(66 090 at Bescot, 25 Apr 1999)