G'day.

Are there any general-purpose gloves that do the same
job as leather ones, but that are not leather? I.e keep your
hands safe during DIY and garden work?

   Thanks,
   Veggie DIY Bloke.

P.S. "Veggie" means I'm a vegetarian, not a vegetable.
Although opinions differ on this.

"David Pearson" <spam.lords@go.tickle.yourselves> wrote in message
news:dfeha5$n4v$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

> G'day.
>
> Are there any general-purpose gloves that do the same
> job as leather ones, but that are not leather? I.e keep your
> hands safe during DIY and garden work?
>
>    Thanks,
>    Veggie DIY Bloke.
>
> P.S. "Veggie" means I'm a vegetarian, not a vegetable.
> Although opinions differ on this.
>

===================
Look in B&Q, Focus etc. for bright yellow / orange gloves. They're
rubberised cotton (I think!) and more durable than most gloves. Good for
rough work but not particularly good where a sensitive touch is needed.

Cic.

"Cicero"  wrote in message 
news:iXzSe.11495$hv5.283@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

>
> "David Pearson" <spam.lords@go.tickle.yourselves> wrote in message
> news:dfeha5$n4v$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> G'day.
>>
>> Are there any general-purpose gloves that do the same
>> job as leather ones, but that are not leather? I.e keep your
>> hands safe during DIY and garden work?
>>
>>    Thanks,
>>    Veggie DIY Bloke.
>>
>> P.S. "Veggie" means I'm a vegetarian, not a vegetable.
>> Although opinions differ on this.
>>
> ===================
> Look in B&Q, Focus etc. for bright yellow / orange gloves. They're
> rubberised cotton (I think!) and more durable than most gloves. Good for
> rough work but not particularly good where a sensitive touch is needed.


I think the sheds charge an arm and leg (well another arm anyway) for these, 
as a profit leader.  You get virtually the same gloves for 50p at a DIY 
stall at a Saturday market that would cost 3 in the high street.

In article <iXzSe.11495$hv5.283@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
	"Cicero"  writes:

>Look in B&Q, Focus etc. for bright yellow / orange gloves. They're
>rubberised cotton (I think!) and more durable than most gloves. Good for
>rough work but not particularly good where a sensitive touch is needed.


I was wearing some whilst using the angle grinder to cut roofing
tiles. I did accidently touch the cutting disc at one point and
they protected me from that (leather would have been better
protection against a more serious attempt at cutting a finger
off). They end up full of sweat though, as they can't breath,
and they take ages to dry out.

-- 
Andrew Gabriel

"David Pearson" <spam.lords@go.tickle.yourselves> writes:

>G'day.
>
>Are there any general-purpose gloves that do the same
>job as leather ones, but that are not leather? I.e keep your
>hands safe during DIY and garden work?
>
>   Thanks,
>   Veggie DIY Bloke.
>
>P.S. "Veggie" means I'm a vegetarian, not a vegetable.
>Although opinions differ on this.


I have no answer to your question, but I commend you on your quest. I know
numbers of people who describe themselves as vegetarian, but are no such
thing; what they mean is that they do not eat red meat.


-- 
       "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
        [email me at huge [at] huge [dot] org [dot] uk]

> Are there any general-purpose gloves that do the same
> job as leather ones, but that are not leather?
> P.S. "Veggie" means I'm a vegetarian


You could always be practical - the animal is dead, and by refusing to 
use leather made from its hide ensures it at least partially died in 
vain :-}

-- 
Please add the word "newsgroup" in the subject line of personal emails
**** My email address includes "ngspamtrap" and "@btinternet.com" ****

"David Pearson" <spam.lords@go.tickle.yourselves> wrote in message 
news:dfeha5$n4v$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

> G'day.
>
> Are there any general-purpose gloves that do the same
> job as leather ones, but that are not leather? I.e keep your
> hands safe during DIY and garden work?
>
>   Thanks,
>   Veggie DIY Bloke.
>
> P.S. "Veggie" means I'm a vegetarian, not a vegetable.
> Although opinions differ on this.
>
>
>
>
>


Arco do a kevlar lined pvc dipped glove...

In article <dfeha5$n4v$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, 
spam.lords@go.tickle.yourselves says...

> G'day.
> 
> Are there any general-purpose gloves that do the same
> job as leather ones, but that are not leather? I.e keep your
> hands safe during DIY and garden work?
> 
>    Thanks,
>    Veggie DIY Bloke.
> 
> P.S. "Veggie" means I'm a vegetarian, not a vegetable.
> Although opinions differ on this.
> 

Someone else ate the cow, it's a shame to waste the skin ...

On the other hand :-)
http://www.healthandsafetysupplies.co.uk/acatalog/Kevlar.html

On Sun, 4 Sep 2005 10:12:22 +0000 (UTC), "David Pearson"
<spam.lords@go.tickle.yourselves> wrote:


>Are there any general-purpose gloves that do the same
>job as leather ones, but that are not leather? 


Yes, they're either very cheap or very expensive.

You can find orange knit "gripper" gloves with rubbery "strings" across
them cheaply at any market tool stall. These are great - hard wearing
for handling bricks and masonry and well ventilated for working hard.
They're useless for waterproofing or garden waste though as things catch
on the surface.

Next step up is PVC gloves from a typical toolshop. These are waterproof
(depending on cuff length) and if you get the heavyweight ones, then
they're good for bramble-clearing too.  However you'll swat like a pig
in them. If you can be bothered, taking a hole punch to the backs and
ventilating them a bit can help a lot - use a hole punch, because sharp
skewer holes will tear.

Then you're off to Arco (real industrial supplier, on the web too) and
spending serious money. They have _lots_ of gloves and you can "mis use"
some sorts for other purposes.  

Hydrogen peroxide handling gloves are vegetarian (they must avoid
anything flammable when doused in a powerful oxidiser) and practically
bombproof, but you have to find them mil-surplus to be affordable.

I still haven't found non-leather welding gloves though, either cheap
tough gauntlets, or flexible kid gloves for delicate TIG welding (I use
Luftwaffe officer's uniform gloves)

David Pearson wrote:


> Are there any general-purpose gloves that do the same
> job as leather ones, but that are not leather? I.e keep your
> hands safe during DIY and garden work?


There are a few options, but they are not direct replacements as such. 
Kevlar as others have said is close. Nitrile dipped cotton are good for 
anything wet, and offer quite good resistance to puncture. The woven 
handling gloves can also be very good for some tasks. These are coated 
with a mesh of latex ribs and give them massive grip on flat heavy 
usually difficult to grip things like sheets of MDF, chip or 
plasterboard. For delicate tasks (painting, plumbing, car washing) then 
latex examination gloves are very good for slight hand protection but 
also keeping them clean. Finally for protection from dangerous sharp 
edges you can also get chainmail gloves.

-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

In article <dfeha5$n4v$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,
   David Pearson <spam.lords@go.tickle.yourselves> wrote:

> G'day.

> Are there any general-purpose gloves that do the same
> job as leather ones, but that are not leather? I.e keep your
> hands safe during DIY and garden work?

>    Thanks,
>    Veggie DIY Bloke.

> P.S. "Veggie" means I'm a vegetarian, not a vegetable.
> Although opinions differ on this.


You could check with the Vegetarian Society. They may have appropriate
companies who have registered with them to use their 'Seedling Symbol'. Even
if not they're likely to have someone who knows the answer to your question.

www.vegsoc.org
0161 925 2000

NB Don't put a uk at the end of org; that's someone else.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

"Andy Dingley"  wrote in message 
news:lgolh1h698n2503g7j0pvvgigmm7ng4sc1@4ax.com...

>
> ... flexible kid gloves for delicate TIG welding (I use
> Luftwaffe officer's uniform gloves)


Beekeepers' gloves. Come with thick cotton 'sleeves' to protect well up the 
arm from sparks too.

But not very good for brambles and roses, holly, thistles, hawthorne, 
blackthorn, pyracantha and the rest of the very prickly stuff in our garden 
:-(

For dealing with those I use the green rippled plastic palmed gloves which 
are univesally available. Yes, I sweat inside a bit but keep taking them off 
and also have a second pair to hand.

As it were.

After use I sprinkle their insides with talc.

Mary

> 

"David Pearson" <spam.lords@go.tickle.yourselves> wrote > Are there any 
general-purpose gloves that do the same

> job as leather ones, but that are not leather? I.e keep your
> hands safe during DIY and garden work?


Thanks everyone, for all this info.

One thing concerns me about the orange woven gloves
with rubbery webbing on them. If a piece got itself attached
to a moving power tool, I worry that nasty things could
happen. One poster (Andrew Gabriel) had one interact
with his angle grinder and nothing bad happened, but
can anyone else give me such good news about these
things? (Or the opposite, if they have any fingers left to
type with!?).

The coated kevlar sounds good for really hand-
damaging jobs.

As for the ethics of using bits of dead cow, I refuse to be drawn.
Especially on a DIY newsgroup!


Moooo...
-D. Pearson

In article <dfejqu$gbk$5@anubis.demon.co.uk>,
   Huge  wrote:

> "David Pearson" <spam.lords@go.tickle.yourselves> writes:
> >G'day.
> >
> >Are there any general-purpose gloves that do the same
> >job as leather ones, but that are not leather? I.e keep your
> >hands safe during DIY and garden work?
> >
> >   Thanks,
> >   Veggie DIY Bloke.
> >
> >P.S. "Veggie" means I'm a vegetarian, not a vegetable.
> >Although opinions differ on this.

> I have no answer to your question, but I commend you on your quest. I know
> numbers of people who describe themselves as vegetarian, but are no such
> thing; what they mean is that they do not eat red meat.


Pescivores? ;-)

Before they ran the recent "Can you keep it up for a week?" campaign the
VegSoc were handing out reminder cards for restaurants saying that, if it had
a face, it shouldn't be served to vegetarians. Too many so-called professional
caterers think that a tuna salad is a good vegetarian option - and very few
appreciate the minefield in the sweet course. ;-(

Linking back to relevance to DIY - just because someone is paid to do a job
doesn't mean that they automatically do it better than amateurs.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

In article <dff0d3$d3n$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,
   David Pearson <spam.lords@go.tickle.yourselves> wrote:

> As for the ethics of using bits of dead cow, I refuse to be drawn.
> Especially on a DIY newsgroup!


I think the problem is more with breeding the cow for killing rather than
using bits of an already dead cow. Taking DIY to a theoretical extreme maybe
we shouldn't be asking people to do what we wouldn't do ourselves - and lots
would be reasonably reluctant to kill other animals.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

"John Cartmell"  wrote in message 
news:4da52cf89ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk...

> In article <dff0d3$d3n$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,
>   David Pearson <spam.lords@go.tickle.yourselves> wrote:
>> As for the ethics of using bits of dead cow, I refuse to be drawn.
>> Especially on a DIY newsgroup!
>
> I think the problem is more with breeding the cow for killing rather than
> using bits of an already dead cow. Taking DIY to a theoretical extreme 
> maybe
> we shouldn't be asking people to do what we wouldn't do ourselves - and 
> lots
> would be reasonably reluctant to kill other animals.


The trouble with killing a cow in UK is that we're not allowed to do it 
ourselves whether we wanted to or not. I'd be happy to do it with a cow or 
bullock I knew.

Mary

John Cartmell  wrote:

> In article <dfejqu$gbk$5@anubis.demon.co.uk>,
>   Huge  wrote:
>> "David Pearson" <spam.lords@go.tickle.yourselves> writes:
>> >G'day.
>> >
>> >Are there any general-purpose gloves that do the same
>> >job as leather ones, but that are not leather? I.e keep your
>> >hands safe during DIY and garden work?
>> >
>> >   Thanks,
>> >   Veggie DIY Bloke.
>> >
>> >P.S. "Veggie" means I'm a vegetarian, not a vegetable.
>> >Although opinions differ on this.
> Before they ran the recent "Can you keep it up for a week?" campaign the
> VegSoc were handing out reminder cards for restaurants saying that, if it had
> a face, it shouldn't be served to vegetarians. Too many so-called professional
> caterers think that a tuna salad is a good vegetarian option - and very few
> appreciate the minefield in the sweet course. ;-(


Hmm. Worms don't have faces.

"Ian Stirling"  wrote in message 
news:431b4574$0$1284$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...

>>> >
>>> >P.S. "Veggie" means I'm a vegetarian, not a vegetable.
>>> >Although opinions differ on this.
>> Before they ran the recent "Can you keep it up for a week?" campaign the
>> VegSoc were handing out reminder cards for restaurants saying that, if it 
>> had
>> a face, it shouldn't be served to vegetarians. Too many so-called 
>> professional
>> caterers think that a tuna salad is a good vegetarian option - and very 
>> few
>> appreciate the minefield in the sweet course. ;-(
>
> Hmm. Worms don't have faces.


Depends what you define as a face.

Mary

In article <431b4574$0$1284$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>, Ian
Stirling  wrote:

> John Cartmell  wrote:
> > In article <dfejqu$gbk$5@anubis.demon.co.uk>, Huge 
> >   wrote:
> >> "David Pearson" <spam.lords@go.tickle.yourselves> writes:
> >> >G'day.
> >> >
> >> >Are there any general-purpose gloves that do the same job as leather
> >> >ones, but that are not leather? I.e keep your hands safe during DIY and
> >> >garden work?
> >> >
> >> >   Thanks, Veggie DIY Bloke.
> >> >
> >> >P.S. "Veggie" means I'm a vegetarian, not a vegetable. Although
> >> >opinions differ on this.
> > Before they ran the recent "Can you keep it up for a week?" campaign the
> > VegSoc were handing out reminder cards for restaurants saying that, if it
> > had a face, it shouldn't be served to vegetarians. Too many so-called
> > professional caterers think that a tuna salad is a good vegetarian option
> > - and very few appreciate the minefield in the sweet course. ;-(

> Hmm. Worms don't have faces.


As far as I'm aware there aren't too many restaurants trying to serve worms -
at least not with their customers' agreement. You do get restaurants (and,
more problematically, caterers) offering fish as a vegetarian option.
Frequently it's the *only* 'vegetarian' option.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

"John Cartmell"  wrote in message 
news:4da54720e1john@cartmell.demon.co.uk...


>
> As far as I'm aware there aren't too many restaurants trying to serve 
> worms -
> at least not with their customers' agreement. You do get restaurants (and,
> more problematically, caterers) offering fish as a vegetarian option.
> Frequently it's the *only* 'vegetarian' option.


Or something cheesy.

When we didn't eat meat and went to restaurants I just asked for the main 
meal without the meat. They still said they had 'vegetarian options' but I 
declined.

Mary

In article <431b5d5c$0$31495$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>,
   Mary Fisher  wrote:


> "John Cartmell"  wrote in message 
> news:4da54720e1john@cartmell.demon.co.uk...

> >
> > As far as I'm aware there aren't too many restaurants trying to serve 
> > worms -
> > at least not with their customers' agreement. You do get restaurants (and,
> > more problematically, caterers) offering fish as a vegetarian option.
> > Frequently it's the *only* 'vegetarian' option.

> Or something cheesy.


Not always vegetarian!


> When we didn't eat meat and went to restaurants I just asked for the main 
> meal without the meat. They still said they had 'vegetarian options' but I 
> declined.


Try that and forget the gravy and the fat. ;-(

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

In article <431b5d5c$0$31495$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>, 
mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk says...

> Or something cheesy.
> 

"Vegetarian" (without further explanation) does not preclude eating 
cheese.

-- 
Tim

In article ,
 Tim  writes:

> In article <431b5d5c$0$31495$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>, 
> mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk says...
> > Or something cheesy.
> > 
> "Vegetarian" (without further explanation) does not preclude eating 
> cheese.


Anyone that eats anything made with the milk of X ought to be prepared to
eat the meat of X as well.  You don't get cows' milk without calves, and the
male calves won't grow up to produce milk.  If you drink cow's milk or eat
cheese made with cows' milk, you're implicitly condoning the slaughter of
young male cattle for food, so you might as well eat the beef that results.
-- 
SAm.

> "Vegetarian" (without further explanation) does not preclude eating
> cheese.



It does if it has animal renet in it...

"John Cartmell"  wrote in message 
news:4da55111e7john@cartmell.demon.co.uk...

> In article <431b5d5c$0$31495$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>,
>   Mary Fisher  wrote:
>
>> "John Cartmell"  wrote in message
>> news:4da54720e1john@cartmell.demon.co.uk...
>
>> >
>> > As far as I'm aware there aren't too many restaurants trying to serve
>> > worms -
>> > at least not with their customers' agreement. You do get restaurants 
>> > (and,
>> > more problematically, caterers) offering fish as a vegetarian option.
>> > Frequently it's the *only* 'vegetarian' option.
>
>> Or something cheesy.
>
> Not always vegetarian!


I know, it rarely is, but the restaurants either don't know that or don't 
say anything about it.

>
>> When we didn't eat meat and went to restaurants I just asked for the main
>> meal without the meat. They still said they had 'vegetarian options' but 
>> I
>> declined.
>
> Try that and forget the gravy and the fat. ;-(


Of course.

We very rarely eat out thesedays although we eat lots of meat at home. In 
fact there's only one place we're prepared to go, one we trust.

Mary

"Tim"  wrote in message 
news:MPG.1d8615ff6de89b61989699@news.btinternet.com...

> In article <431b5d5c$0$31495$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>,
> mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk says...
>> Or something cheesy.
>>
> "Vegetarian" (without further explanation) does not preclude eating
> cheese.


Do you know how cheese is made?

Mary

>
> -- 
> Tim 

On Sun, 4 Sep 2005 17:23:50 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
 wrote:


>The trouble with killing a cow in UK is that we're not allowed to do it 
>ourselves whether we wanted to or not. I'd be happy to do it with a cow or 
>bullock I knew.
>


Are you sure about that? I thought you could kill your own cow for
your own consumption. A farmer I know in the new forest kills his own
pigs for his own use.

He also sells pork and pork sausages from his farm for which he uses
his own pigs that have been sent to an abbatoir 100 miles away and
then sent back. (Seems like a real waste of a journey).

Mr F.

On Sun, 4 Sep 2005 10:12:22 +0000 (UTC), "David Pearson"
<spam.lords@go.tickle.yourselves> wrote:


>G'day.
>
>Are there any general-purpose gloves that do the same
>job as leather ones, but that are not leather? I.e keep your
>hands safe during DIY and garden work?
>
>   Thanks,
>   Veggie DIY Bloke.
>
>P.S. "Veggie" means I'm a vegetarian, not a vegetable.
>Although opinions differ on this.
>
>


As John Rumm pointed out you can get chainmail gloves. I have seen
these in use by chefs in oyster restaurants. I wouldn't want to work
near any electrical installation while wearing these, however,
especially something capable of supplying a high current like a car
battery...you'd fry your hands off!

Mr F.

In article ,
   Tim  wrote:

> In article <431b5d5c$0$31495$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>, 
> mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk says...
> > Or something cheesy.

> "Vegetarian" (without further explanation) does not preclude eating 
> cheese.


There is no legal definition of 'vegetarian' which is the reason restaurants
can get away with murder. The one definition that has long-term validity is
that of the Vegetarian Society who coined the word in the first place. You'll
find food preparers and restaurants using their own logos to suggest the idea
of 'vegetarian' with varying degrees of concern (or non-concern) about the
meat or meat products included in the product or its preparation - not to
mention possible cross-contamination during cooking. As Mary suggests - the
only real answer is to DIY your food.

Cheese can be produced using rennet - a product derived from the slaughter of
an animal - or a vegetarian equivalent. Obviously only the latter can get the
'seal of approval' though there would be other considerations as well for the
VegSoc. Vegans (one step beyond vegetarian) won't eat cheese or any other
dairy products at all. Vegetarians - Vegetarian Society definition - are
choosy about dairy products; details on the VegSoc site at www.vegsoc.org

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

In article <dfh17p$50i$2@dulnain.stir.ac.uk>, sam@ssrl.org.uk says...

> If you drink cow's milk or eat
> cheese made with cows' milk, you're implicitly condoning the slaughter of
> young male cattle for food,
> 

If you say so. You could still be a vegetarian though.

In article <431c1149$0$5854$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>, 
mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk says...

> Do you know how cheese is made?
> 

Yes. There's a number of methods, some produce cheese suitable for a 
vegetarian diet, some don't.

In article <dfh17p$50i$2@dulnain.stir.ac.uk>,
   Sam Nelson  wrote:

> In article ,
>  Tim  writes:
> > In article <431b5d5c$0$31495$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>, 
> > mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk says...
> > > Or something cheesy.
> > > 
> > "Vegetarian" (without further explanation) does not preclude eating 
> > cheese.

> Anyone that eats anything made with the milk of X ought to be prepared to
> eat the meat of X as well.  You don't get cows' milk without calves, and the
> male calves won't grow up to produce milk.  If you drink cow's milk or eat
> cheese made with cows' milk, you're implicitly condoning the slaughter of
> young male cattle for food, so you might as well eat the beef that results.


That's a separate matter and is an argument that divides vegetarians from
vegans. Some people regard being a vegetarian as just one step they can take
in a particular direction. Others regard meat reduction in their diet as a
step towards being a vegetarian. Saying you must make an all or nothing choice
immediately is an argument well-used by the meat industry to attempt to turn
people away from reform of their diet. There is no such requirement whether
your reform is for health or moral reasons and most reasonable religious
prohibitions expect the occasional lapse.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

David Pearson wrote:


> Are there any general-purpose gloves that do the same
> job as leather ones, but that are not leather? I.e keep your
> hands safe during DIY and garden work?


Go to Wilkinsons and buy a few pairs of "canvas" gloves
at 99p/pr.

In article ,
 Tim  writes:

> In article <dfh17p$50i$2@dulnain.stir.ac.uk>, sam@ssrl.org.uk says...
> > If you drink cow's milk or eat
> > cheese made with cows' milk, you're implicitly condoning the slaughter of
> > young male cattle for food,
> > 
> If you say so. You could still be a vegetarian though.


Yes, but fairly pointlessly so, unless you're one of these people that just
doesn't like meat.
-- 
SAm.

"John Cartmell"  wrote in message 
news:4da5941c91john@cartmell.demon.co.uk...

>> > >
>> > "Vegetarian" (without further explanation) does not preclude eating
>> > cheese.
>
>> Anyone that eats anything made with the milk of X ought to be prepared to
>> eat the meat of X as well.  You don't get cows' milk without calves, and 
>> the
>> male calves won't grow up to produce milk.  If you drink cow's milk or 
>> eat
>> cheese made with cows' milk, you're implicitly condoning the slaughter of
>> young male cattle for food, so you might as well eat the beef that 
>> results.
>
> That's a separate matter and is an argument that divides vegetarians from
> vegans. Some people regard being a vegetarian as just one step they can 
> take
> in a particular direction. Others regard meat reduction in their diet as a
> step towards being a vegetarian. Saying you must make an all or nothing 
> choice
> immediately is an argument well-used by the meat industry to attempt to 
> turn
> people away from reform of their diet. There is no such requirement 
> whether
> your reform is for health or moral reasons and most reasonable religious
> prohibitions expect the occasional lapse.


Indeed. There are very many degrees and several reasons for choosing one's 
diet.

Mary

>

In article ,
 John Cartmell  writes:

> In article <dfh17p$50i$2@dulnain.stir.ac.uk>,
>    Sam Nelson  wrote:
> > In article ,
> >  Tim  writes:
> > > In article <431b5d5c$0$31495$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>, 
> > > mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk says...
> > > > Or something cheesy.
> > > > 
> > > "Vegetarian" (without further explanation) does not preclude eating 
> > > cheese.
> 
> > Anyone that eats anything made with the milk of X ought to be prepared to
> > eat the meat of X as well.  You don't get cows' milk without calves, and the
> > male calves won't grow up to produce milk.  If you drink cow's milk or eat
> > cheese made with cows' milk, you're implicitly condoning the slaughter of
> > young male cattle for food, so you might as well eat the beef that results.
> 
> That's a separate matter and is an argument that divides vegetarians from
> vegans.


Not quite.  As far as I can tell, a fair number of vegetarians are that
because they don't want animals killed to feed them.  That doesn't preclude
using `non-lethal' animal products---eggs, for example.  My point is that
dairy products are indirectly lethal to male cattle.


> Some people regard being a vegetarian as just one step they can take
> in a particular direction. Others regard meat reduction in their diet as a
> step towards being a vegetarian. Saying you must make an all or nothing choice
> immediately is an argument well-used by the meat industry to attempt to turn
> people away from reform of their diet.


All or nothing?  Absolutely not.  But as long as there are people drinking
cows' milk, there'll be an excess of male cattle around for no useful reason
other than to kill for beef.


> There is no such requirement whether
> your reform is for health or moral reasons and most reasonable religious
> prohibitions expect the occasional lapse.


There wasn't the slightest hint of any religious connection in what I wrote
above, nor any intention for there to be such.
-- 
SAm.

"Tim"  wrote in message 
news:MPG.1d862d6fd08e516098969b@news.btinternet.com...

> In article <431c1149$0$5854$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>,
> mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk says...
>> Do you know how cheese is made?
>>
> Yes. There's a number of methods, some produce cheese suitable for a
> vegetarian diet, some don't.


Most useanimal rennetwhich, to apurist, wouldn't be acceptable.

Depending, of course, on what degree or purist s/he is :-)

Mary

"Mr Fizzion" <wankel@rotary.engine> wrote in message 
news:l56oh1ltghbchmm67gqbi2jnpih7kd893n@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 4 Sep 2005 17:23:50 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
>  wrote:
>
>>The trouble with killing a cow in UK is that we're not allowed to do it
>>ourselves whether we wanted to or not. I'd be happy to do it with a cow or
>>bullock I knew.
>>
>
> Are you sure about that? I thought you could kill your own cow for
> your own consumption. A farmer I know in the new forest kills his own
> pigs for his own use.


Our daughter has to take her animls to the slaughterhouse to be killed. 
She's allowed to butcher the carcase for her own consumption.

>
> He also sells pork and pork sausages from his farm for which he uses
> his own pigs that have been sent to an abbatoir 100 miles away and
> then sent back. (Seems like a real waste of a journey).


It's bad on welfare grounds and on environmental ones. It doesn't even make 
sense in cross infection terms, which is HMG's justification. Anyone selling 
animals to Tesco, for instance, has to use the slaughterhouse decreed by 
Tesco, some animals have to be ssent more than 200 miles away (BBC Radio 4 
Farming Today, today).

Mary

>
> Mr F.
>
> 

"Mr Fizzion" <wankel@rotary.engine> wrote in message 
news:6f6oh1p7poes6jta6ifr7q0dks6gc57dp8@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 4 Sep 2005 10:12:22 +0000 (UTC), "David Pearson"
> <spam.lords@go.tickle.yourselves> wrote:
>
>>G'day.
>>
>>Are there any general-purpose gloves that do the same
>>job as leather ones, but that are not leather? I.e keep your
>>hands safe during DIY and garden work?
>>
>>   Thanks,
>>   Veggie DIY Bloke.
>>
>>P.S. "Veggie" means I'm a vegetarian, not a vegetable.
>>Although opinions differ on this.
>>
>>
>
> As John Rumm pointed out you can get chainmail gloves. I have seen
> these in use by chefs in oyster restaurants. I wouldn't want to work
> near any electrical installation while wearing these, however,
> especially something capable of supplying a high current like a car
> battery...you'd fry your hands off!


Mail gloves are produced for use by butchers ... :-))))))))))

Mary

>
> Mr F.
> 

In article <dfh9n5$hn6$2@dulnain.stir.ac.uk>,
   Sam Nelson  wrote:

> > There is no such requirement whether your reform is for health or moral
> > reasons and most reasonable religious prohibitions expect the occasional
> > lapse.

> There wasn't the slightest hint of any religious connection in what I wrote
> above, nor any intention for there to be such.


You didn't give any hint. I covered the three main reasons that people cite
for reduced meat eating, eating a vegetarian or vegan diet, or choosing an
even more restrictive option (eg fruitarian). Vegetarian is very much a middle
position between two extremes and far from an all or nothing choice. It's
likely close to the diet we evolved eating hence its generally beneficial
effect on health.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

In article <dfh9aj$hn6$1@dulnain.stir.ac.uk>, Sam Nelson 
wrote:

> In article , Tim
>   writes:
> > In article <dfh17p$50i$2@dulnain.stir.ac.uk>, sam@ssrl.org.uk says...
> > > If you drink cow's milk or eat cheese made with cows' milk, you're
> > > implicitly condoning the slaughter of young male cattle for food,
> > > 
> > If you say so. You could still be a vegetarian though.

> Yes, but fairly pointlessly so, unless you're one of these people that just
> doesn't like meat.


Most people aren't saints despite having moral principles. You seem to suggest
that people who occasionally drop litter in the streets might as well go out
to rape and murder as well. We all sin; keeping sinning low is the next best
idea to not sinning at all.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 12:20:57 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
 wrote:


>
>Most useanimal rennetwhich, to apurist, wouldn't be acceptable.
>
>Depending, of course, on what degree or purist s/he is :-)
>
>Mary 
>


Quite a lot of beer and wine isn't vegetarian either since it is
cleared using Isinglass finings which come from the swimbladder of a
sturgeon.

Real ale on handpump invariably contains Isinglass but bottled beers
are sometimes cleared using other methods.

If you want to know if your favourite ale is vegetarian then look at
this very interesting website which contains a list of vegetarian
beers and correspondence from brewers:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geraint.bevan/Vegetarian_beers.html

Mr F.

"John Cartmell"  wrote in message 
news:4da5a0abb4john@cartmell.demon.co.uk...

> In article <dfh9aj$hn6$1@dulnain.stir.ac.uk>, Sam Nelson 
> wrote:
>> In article , Tim
>>   writes:
>> > In article <dfh17p$50i$2@dulnain.stir.ac.uk>, sam@ssrl.org.uk says...
>> > > If you drink cow's milk or eat cheese made with cows' milk, you're
>> > > implicitly condoning the slaughter of young male cattle for food,
>> > >
>> > If you say so. You could still be a vegetarian though.
>
>> Yes, but fairly pointlessly so, unless you're one of these people that 
>> just
>> doesn't like meat.
>
> Most people aren't saints despite having moral principles. You seem to 
> suggest
> that people who occasionally drop litter in the streets might as well go 
> out
> to rape and murder as well. We all sin; keeping sinning low is the next 
> best
> idea to not sinning at all.


But eating meat per se isn't sinful. Unless we ate meat there'd be very few 
ruminants around.

Mary

>

"Mr Fizzion" <wankel@rotary.engine> wrote in message 
news:rkeoh192avbp5nv8ita5umli6b54uurc0q@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 12:20:57 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
>  wrote:
>
>>
>>Most use animal rennet which, to apurist, wouldn't be acceptable.
>>
>>Depending, of course, on what degree or purist s/he is :-)
>>
>>Mary
>>
>
> Quite a lot of beer and wine isn't vegetarian either since it is
> cleared using Isinglass finings which come from the swimbladder of a
> sturgeon.


I think most of us know that. What's your point? Do you want a list of 
apparently 'vegetarian' items which contain animal by-products? You;d soon 
get bored.

Mary

>

In article <431c46ea$0$32458$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>, Mary Fisher
 wrote:

> > Most people aren't saints despite having moral principles. You seem to
> > suggest that people who occasionally drop litter in the streets might as
> > well go out to rape and murder as well. We all sin; keeping sinning low
> > is the next best idea to not sinning at all.

> But eating meat per se isn't sinful.


It is to some people. In any case that was only a parable to show that there
can be gradations in ethical eating - it isn't an all or none affair.


> Unless we ate meat there'd be very few ruminants around.


Which would reduce global warming, destruction of tropical forests, and
destructive mono-cultures. Sounds OK to me.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

In article <431c4760$0$28626$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>,
   Mary Fisher  wrote:


> "Mr Fizzion" <wankel@rotary.engine> wrote in message 
> news:rkeoh192avbp5nv8ita5umli6b54uurc0q@4ax.com...
> > On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 12:20:57 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
> >  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>Most use animal rennet which, to apurist, wouldn't be acceptable.
> >>
> >>Depending, of course, on what degree or purist s/he is :-)
> >>
> >>Mary
> >>
> >
> > Quite a lot of beer and wine isn't vegetarian either since it is
> > cleared using Isinglass finings which come from the swimbladder of a
> > sturgeon.

> I think most of us know that. What's your point? Do you want a list of 
> apparently 'vegetarian' items which contain animal by-products? You;d soon 
> get bored.


Probably not. A good number of people get rather animated when presented with
the facts of slaughtered animal products in jellies, yoghurts, Polo mints, &c.
The possible existence of gelatine in many restaurant sweets comes as a
profound shock to many waiters who frequently don't appreciate its genesis.
As you suggested earlier, it's possibly best to stick to DIY food; trusting a
restaurant to advise you that their apple pie is suitable for vegetarians  is
probably not a good idea when they put a V next to salmon salad. ;-(

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

John Cartmell wrote:

> Probably not. A good number of people get rather animated when
> presented with


ever-increasing amounts of incontinent rubbish spewed here that
has no relevance.

Mary Fisher wrote:


> Mail gloves are produced for use by butchers ... :-))))))))))


They are also very good when you need to wire out some electronic 
equipment racks that don't have rolled edges on the steel work!


-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

"John Cartmell"  wrote in message 
news:4da5a89cf5john@cartmell.demon.co.uk...

> In article <431c46ea$0$32458$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>, Mary Fisher
>  wrote:
>> > Most people aren't saints despite having moral principles. You seem to
>> > suggest that people who occasionally drop litter in the streets might 
>> > as
>> > well go out to rape and murder as well. We all sin; keeping sinning low
>> > is the next best idea to not sinning at all.
>
>> But eating meat per se isn't sinful.
>
> It is to some people. In any case that was only a parable to show that 
> there
> can be gradations in ethical eating - it isn't an all or none affair.


Quite. I wasn't challenging you :-)

>
>> Unless we ate meat there'd be very few ruminants around.
>
> Which would reduce global warming, destruction of tropical forests, and
> destructive mono-cultures. Sounds OK to me.


We'd reduce all that much more if we didn't have mankind.

Mary

>
> -- 
> John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com   0845 006 8822
> Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
> Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
> 

"John Cartmell"  wrote in message 
news:4da5a97d4bjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk...

> In article <431c4760$0$28626$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>,
>   Mary Fisher  wrote:
>
>> "Mr Fizzion" <wankel@rotary.engine> wrote in message
>> news:rkeoh192avbp5nv8ita5umli6b54uurc0q@4ax.com...
>> > On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 12:20:57 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
>> >  wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>Most use animal rennet which, to apurist, wouldn't be acceptable.
>> >>
>> >>Depending, of course, on what degree or purist s/he is :-)
>> >>
>> >>Mary
>> >>
>> >
>> > Quite a lot of beer and wine isn't vegetarian either since it is
>> > cleared using Isinglass finings which come from the swimbladder of a
>> > sturgeon.
>
>> I think most of us know that. What's your point? Do you want a list of
>> apparently 'vegetarian' items which contain animal by-products? You'd 
>> soon
>> get bored.
>
> Probably not. A good number of people get rather animated when presented 
> with
> the facts of slaughtered animal products in jellies, yoghurts, Polo mints, 
> &c.


And in the pills they pop.


> The possible existence of gelatine in many restaurant sweets comes as a
> profound shock to many waiters who frequently don't appreciate its 
> genesis.


Some cooks too, I suspect. they buy gelatine in tins or packets, they 
don'tmake it from scratch.


> As you suggested earlier, it's possibly best to stick to DIY food; 
> trusting a
> restaurant to advise you that their apple pie is suitable for vegetarians 
> is
> probably not a good idea when they put a V next to salmon salad. ;-(


LOL!

Mary

"John Rumm"  wrote in message 
news:431c5caf$0$1299$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...

> Mary Fisher wrote:
>
>> Mail gloves are produced for use by butchers ... :-))))))))))
>
> They are also very good when you need to wire out some electronic 
> equipment racks that don't have rolled edges on the steel work!


Got me there, I admit that I've never done that.

Mary

In article <431c629d$0$32458$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>,
   Mary Fisher  wrote:

> >> Unless we ate meat there'd be very few ruminants around.
> >
> > Which would reduce global warming, destruction of tropical forests, and
> > destructive mono-cultures. Sounds OK to me.

> We'd reduce all that much more if we didn't have mankind.


A severe reduction in those numbers would make it reasonable again to import
some very interesting hardwoods for DIY use <struggling to get back to
anything relevant to uk.d-i-y> ;-)

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

"John Cartmell"  wrote in message 
news:4da5b1c7bbjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk...

> In article <431c629d$0$32458$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>,
>   Mary Fisher  wrote:
>> >> Unless we ate meat there'd be very few ruminants around.
>> >
>> > Which would reduce global warming, destruction of tropical forests, and
>> > destructive mono-cultures. Sounds OK to me.
>
>> We'd reduce all that much more if we didn't have mankind.
>
> A severe reduction in those numbers would make it reasonable again to 
> import
> some very interesting hardwoods for DIY use <struggling to get back to
> anything relevant to uk.d-i-y> ;-)


er- the destruction of tropical forests was/is by Man, not by the ruminants. 
The 'demand' for beef reared on the cleared ground isn't the fault of the 
ruminants, it's by Man.

Destructive mono-cultures aren't just about feeding ruminants, they have all 
sorts of other end-products.

Global warming is a result, largely, of using powered tools and vehicles.

The answer? DIY :-)

Get out a hand saw, use legs instead of a car. Most carjounreys are for very 
short journeys which could be walked.

Yes, I know that a hand saw uses steel which demands energy to make it but 
that energy is a one-off use.

Et cetera.

Mary

"John Cartmell"  wrote in message 
news:4da5b09980john@cartmell.demon.co.uk...

> In article ,
>   Chris Bacon  wrote:
>> John Cartmell wrote:
>> > Probably not. A good number of people get rather animated when
>> > presented with
>
>> ever-increasing amounts of incontinent rubbish spewed here that
>> has no relevance.
>
> You would say that with a name like yours! ;-)
>
> Criticism accepted (if not the tone) but I think Mary and I did attempt to
> keep some aspect of DIY in there


And reading it is voluntary.

- and whatever the provocation your

> description is crap ...


He's been looking at a dictionary again.

Funny, I'd forgotten about this poster, he leads a very lonely life in my 
kf. He should do the same with us if he doesn't like what we have to say.

It's quite easy, you can do it yourself ...

Mary

>
> -- 
> John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com   0845 006 8822
> Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
> Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
> 

John and Mary,

May I suggest that you continue this off-group?

Top-posted by the Original Poster!
Pearson

[ .. then deleted ..]

In article <431c6c95$0$32464$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>, Mary Fisher
 wrote:


> "John Cartmell"  wrote in message
> news:4da5b1c7bbjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk...
> > In article <431c629d$0$32458$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>, Mary
> >   Fisher  wrote:
> >> >> Unless we ate meat there'd be very few ruminants around.
> >> >
> >> > Which would reduce global warming, destruction of tropical forests,
> >> > and destructive mono-cultures. Sounds OK to me.
> >
> >> We'd reduce all that much more if we didn't have mankind.
> >
> > A severe reduction in those numbers would make it reasonable again to
> > import some very interesting hardwoods for DIY use <struggling to get
> > back to anything relevant to uk.d-i-y> ;-)

> er- the destruction of tropical forests was/is by Man, not by the
> ruminants. The 'demand' for beef reared on the cleared ground isn't the
> fault of the ruminants, it's by Man.


Yes. But the complaint was that by advocating vegetarianism there would be
fewer ruminants.


> Destructive mono-cultures aren't just about feeding ruminants, they have
> all sorts of other end-products.

Yes.

> Global warming is a result, largely, of using powered tools and vehicles.


So you too are working hard to make this all relevant! ;-)


> The answer? DIY :-)

> Get out a hand saw, use legs instead of a car. Most carjounreys are for
> very short journeys which could be walked.

> Yes, I know that a hand saw uses steel which demands energy to make it but
> that energy is a one-off use.


Can we also advocate long-lasting hand-tools in place of the 'use once for a
job' power tools that I've seen proposed here recently?

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

Mary Fisher wrote:


> Got me there, I admit that I've never done that.


Same applies to the bargain basement 12 quid computer cases - all 
stamped sheet steel with no deburring. Work on one of those without 
gloves for a few mins and you will be leaking claret all over the place!

-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

"John Cartmell"  wrote in message 
news:4da5b6c763john@cartmell.demon.co.uk...

>
> So you too are working hard to make this all relevant! ;-)
>
>> The answer? DIY :-)
>
>> Get out a hand saw, use legs instead of a car. Most car journeys are for
>> very short journeys which could be walked.
>
>> Yes, I know that a hand saw uses steel which demands energy to make it 
>> but
>> that energy is a one-off use.
>
> Can we also advocate long-lasting hand-tools in place of the 'use once for 
> a
> job' power tools that I've seen proposed here recently?


Will anyone takeany notice? Buying cheaply and throwing away is universal, 
sadly, in every sphere. There are exceptions to every rule, I'm pleased to 
say.

Mary

John Rumm"  wrote in message 
news:431c9897$0$17472$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...

> Mary Fisher wrote:
>
>> Got me there, I admit that I've never done that.
>
> Same applies to the bargain basement 12 quid computer cases - all stamped 
> sheet steel with no deburring. Work on one of those without gloves for a 
> few mins and you will be leaking claret all over the place!


Never done that either. I'm not one to try to save a penny.

I'd rather have real claret, sadly I don't drink enough for my veins to run 
with it :-)

It's frightfully hot and close tonight, I think I'll go to bed. I wish it 
would rain and clean the air.

Mary

In article , Chris Bacon
<URL:mailto:chrispbacon@thai.com> wrote:


> John Cartmell wrote:
> > Probably not. A good number of people get rather animated when
> > presented with
> 
> ever-increasing amounts of incontinent rubbish spewed here that
> has no relevance.


Except to most of the established contributers to the group. If you don't
like it, sling your hook elsewhere.

-- 
AJL

Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics) wrote:

> Chris Bacon wrote:
>>John Cartmell wrote:
>>
>>>Probably not. A good number of people get rather animated when
>>>presented with
>>
>>ever-increasing amounts of incontinent rubbish spewed here that
>>has no relevance.
> 
> Except to most of the established contributers to the group. If
> you don't like it, sling your hook elsewhere.


Yeah, right - I'm an "established contributor", since '97?
'98? You have been posting only a year or two, so mine's
bigger than yours, got it? Do you really want to play that
stupid game? Bring on the "inclusive we"!

Do you like dIMM's contributions? Adverts? If not, why put
up with non-contributions such as the one that I complained
about? Another poster suggested that e-mail is a better
medium for the sort of thing, as well. Yes! Will it happen?
No, because wherever MF goes there's a sudden increase in
OT rubbish posted, and sycophantic wibblers to make more
increase. A few OT/chatty postings are not objectionable -
however, when the crap:useful ratio is about 3000:1, then
IMO that is.

Mary Fisher wrote:


> It's frightfully hot and close tonight, I think I'll go to bed.


That was the last thing on my mind last night. The thought of anything 
covering me was out of the question.

Pity really, it was our 35th wedding anniversary.

Dave

"Dave"  wrote in message 
news:dfkqqs$5cj$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

> Mary Fisher wrote:
>
>> It's frightfully hot and close tonight, I think I'll go to bed.
>
> That was the last thing on my mind last night. The thought of anything 
> covering me was out of the question.
>
> Pity really, it was our 35th wedding anniversary.


Well done.

Been there, ten years ago :-)

It gets even better!

Mary

>
> Dave