Am I correct in assuming that standard copper pipe can be used for gas
work?

Also, is it acceptable to use compression fittings or should solder
fittings be used?

(I have a situation where it will be very difficult to solder one of
the joints without setting fire to something..much easier to use a
compression fitting)

shokka

Shokka wrote:

> Am I correct in assuming that standard copper pipe can be used for gas
> work?
>
Heh!

> Also, is it acceptable to use compression fittings or should solder
> fittings be used?
>

Should you be doing this job?



> (I have a situation where it will be very difficult to solder one of
> the joints without setting fire to something..much easier to use a
> compression fitting)
>
> shokka


I usually put a piece of wide alluminium or tin behind the job if its
permissable.

In article <wulRe.99772$G8.52667@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, 
allo@h.co.uk says...

> Shokka wrote:
> > Am I correct in assuming that standard copper pipe can be used for gas
> > work?
> >
> Heh!
> 
> > Also, is it acceptable to use compression fittings or should solder
> > fittings be used?
> >
> Should you be doing this job?
> 

Is he the right person to be asking that question?

On 31 Aug 2005 09:52:05 -0700, "Shokka"  wrote:


>Am I correct in assuming that standard copper pipe can be used for gas
>work?
>
>Also, is it acceptable to use compression fittings or should solder
>fittings be used?
>
>(I have a situation where it will be very difficult to solder one of
>the joints without setting fire to something..much easier to use a
>compression fitting)


Yes,it is acceptable.

On 31 Aug 2005 09:52:05 -0700, "Shokka"  wrote:


>Am I correct in assuming that standard copper pipe can be used for gas
>work?
>
>Also, is it acceptable to use compression fittings or should solder
>fittings be used?
>
>(I have a situation where it will be very difficult to solder one of
>the joints without setting fire to something..much easier to use a
>compression fitting)
>


See the gas fitting faq:
http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html

Mr F.

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:58:44 +0100, Mr Fizzion wrote:


> On 31 Aug 2005 09:52:05 -0700, "Shokka"  wrote:
> 
>>Am I correct in assuming that standard copper pipe can be used for gas
>>work?
>>
>>Also, is it acceptable to use compression fittings or should solder
>>fittings be used?
>>
>>(I have a situation where it will be very difficult to solder one of
>>the joints without setting fire to something..much easier to use a
>>compression fitting)
>>
> 
> See the gas fitting faq:
> http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
> 


And then think very seriously if you should be doing the job (?).



-- 
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk 
Gas fitting FAQ  http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

In message , pacer 
 writes

>
>Shokka Wrote:
>> Am I correct in assuming that standard copper pipe can be used for 
>gas
>> work?
>>
>> Also, is it acceptable to use compression fittings or should solder
>> fittings be used?
>>
>> (I have a situation where it will be very difficult to solder one of
>> the joints without setting fire to something..much easier to use a
>> compression fitting)
>>
>> shokka
>hi, copper pipe can be used for gas, and compression fittings are ok to
>use aswell, PS, unless your suitably qualified


The word's "competent"


>dont touch gas,employ a
>CORGI regestered gas engineer.



Employ a spellchecker, there's a good boi


-- 
geoff

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:35:51 +0100, Ed Sirett
 wrote:


>And then think very seriously if you should be doing the job (?).


Why?

People come on here to ask advice about things they don't know or need
clarification on. Presumably the guy can make OK plumbing joints
otherwise he wouldn't be undertaking the job. If you can make an OK
water joint then you can make an OK gas joint. It ain't exactly rocket
science, is it?

All he was asking was whether a commpression joint was an acceptable
way to make a gas joint, not whether it'd work or not. In other words
seeking clarification of the current regulations and accepted "best
practice". This news group is all about learning more about DIY and
how to do jobs properly.

Perhaps the answer to *any* question on uk.d-i-y should be "If you
don't know the answer then you shouldn't be undertaking the job".

sponix

In article <wulRe.99772$G8.52667@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
   ben  wrote:

> > (I have a situation where it will be very difficult to solder one of
> > the joints without setting fire to something..much easier to use a
> > compression fitting)

> I usually put a piece of wide alluminium or tin behind the job if its
> permissable.


Those spare tiles you kept but never used are also useful for this.

-- 
*The older you get, the better you realize you were.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:

> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:35:51 +0100, Ed Sirett
>  wrote:
>
>> And then think very seriously if you should be doing the job (?).
>
> Why?
>

[snip]

The obvious answer to that, would be his first question.

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 12:32:53 GMT, "ben"  wrote:


>The obvious answer to that, would be his first question.


Is all copper pipe created equal?Are there different types? Perhaps
gas needs to use copper with a thicker wall?

Seems sensible to confirm what can be used before starting, doesn't
it?

sponix

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 08:01:11 +0000, s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:


> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:35:51 +0100, Ed Sirett
>  wrote:
> 
>>And then think very seriously if you should be doing the job (?).
> 
> Why?
> 
> People come on here to ask advice about things they don't know or need
> clarification on. Presumably the guy can make OK plumbing joints
> otherwise he wouldn't be undertaking the job. If you can make an OK
> water joint then you can make an OK gas joint. It ain't exactly rocket
> science, is it?
> 
> All he was asking was whether a commpression joint was an acceptable
> way to make a gas joint, not whether it'd work or not. In other words
> seeking clarification of the current regulations and accepted "best
> practice". This news group is all about learning more about DIY and
> how to do jobs properly.
> 
> Perhaps the answer to *any* question on uk.d-i-y should be "If you
> don't know the answer then you shouldn't be undertaking the job".
>

 
If I were totally against people learning on the job why would I  have
assembled the gas fitting FAQ? For which I get flak (from a few) and
thanks (from more). 


-- 
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk 
Gas fitting FAQ  http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

Ed Sirett wrote:

> On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 08:01:11 +0000, s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:35:51 +0100, Ed Sirett
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> And then think very seriously if you should be doing the job (?).
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> People come on here to ask advice about things they don't know or
>> need clarification on. Presumably the guy can make OK plumbing joints
>> otherwise he wouldn't be undertaking the job. If you can make an OK
>> water joint then you can make an OK gas joint. It ain't exactly
>> rocket science, is it?
>>
>> All he was asking was whether a commpression joint was an acceptable
>> way to make a gas joint, not whether it'd work or not. In other words
>> seeking clarification of the current regulations and accepted "best
>> practice". This news group is all about learning more about DIY and
>> how to do jobs properly.
>>
>> Perhaps the answer to *any* question on uk.d-i-y should be "If you
>> don't know the answer then you shouldn't be undertaking the job".
>>
>
> If I were totally against people learning on the job why would I  have
> assembled the gas fitting FAQ? For which I get flak (from a few) and
> thanks (from more).


There's a limit to DIY, and gas is one of them.

Let's supposing you bought a house and the previous owner was a keen
DIY'er, the previous owner fitted all his own gas installation, 2 weeks
after moving into the property there's a gas explosion and one of your
children died as a result...would you have the previous owner up in court
or would you just sit back and do nothing?

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:17:53 GMT, "ben"  wrote:


>Ed Sirett wrote:
>> On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 08:01:11 +0000, s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:35:51 +0100, Ed Sirett
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> And then think very seriously if you should be doing the job (?).
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> People come on here to ask advice about things they don't know or
>>> need clarification on. Presumably the guy can make OK plumbing joints
>>> otherwise he wouldn't be undertaking the job. If you can make an OK
>>> water joint then you can make an OK gas joint. It ain't exactly
>>> rocket science, is it?
>>>
>>> All he was asking was whether a commpression joint was an acceptable
>>> way to make a gas joint, not whether it'd work or not. In other words
>>> seeking clarification of the current regulations and accepted "best
>>> practice". This news group is all about learning more about DIY and
>>> how to do jobs properly.
>>>
>>> Perhaps the answer to *any* question on uk.d-i-y should be "If you
>>> don't know the answer then you shouldn't be undertaking the job".
>>>
>>
>> If I were totally against people learning on the job why would I  have
>> assembled the gas fitting FAQ? For which I get flak (from a few) and
>> thanks (from more).
>
>There's a limit to DIY, and gas is one of them.
>
>Let's supposing you bought a house and the previous owner was a keen
>DIY'er, the previous owner fitted all his own gas installation, 2 weeks
>after moving into the property there's a gas explosion and one of your
>children died as a result...would you have the previous owner up in court
>or would you just sit back and do nothing?
>

Even if it were installed professionally you'd have the installer in
court. There are probably more problems with rogue "professional"
fitters than DIYers.

Of course your child could be electrocuted too from faulty DIY work.
Is electricity off limits?

Mr F.

Mr Fizzion wrote:

> On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:17:53 GMT, "ben"  wrote:
>
>> Ed Sirett wrote:
>>> On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 08:01:11 +0000, s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:
>>>
[snip]
>>>
>>> If I were totally against people learning on the job why would I
>>> have assembled the gas fitting FAQ? For which I get flak (from a
>>> few) and thanks (from more).
>>
>> There's a limit to DIY, and gas is one of them.
>>
>> Let's supposing you bought a house and the previous owner was a keen
>> DIY'er, the previous owner fitted all his own gas installation, 2
>> weeks after moving into the property there's a gas explosion and one
>> of your children died as a result...would you have the previous
>> owner up in court or would you just sit back and do nothing?
>>
> Even if it were installed professionally you'd have the installer in
> court. There are probably more problems with rogue "professional"
> fitters than DIYers.
>


Yes but you could sue the company that employed this pro(alledgedly), where
as alls you would get from the DIY'er is a few months in clink.


> Of course your child could be electrocuted too from faulty DIY work.
> Is electricity off limits?


Chances are the child would survive an electrical shock.. gas explosion I
think not.


>
> Mr F.

ben wrote:

> Ed Sirett wrote:
> 
>>On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 08:01:11 +0000, s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:35:51 +0100, Ed Sirett
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>And then think very seriously if you should be doing the job (?).
>>>
>>>Why?
>>>
>>>People come on here to ask advice about things they don't know or
>>>need clarification on. Presumably the guy can make OK plumbing joints
>>>otherwise he wouldn't be undertaking the job. If you can make an OK
>>>water joint then you can make an OK gas joint. It ain't exactly
>>>rocket science, is it?
>>>
>>>All he was asking was whether a commpression joint was an acceptable
>>>way to make a gas joint, not whether it'd work or not. In other words
>>>seeking clarification of the current regulations and accepted "best
>>>practice". This news group is all about learning more about DIY and
>>>how to do jobs properly.
>>>
>>>Perhaps the answer to *any* question on uk.d-i-y should be "If you
>>>don't know the answer then you shouldn't be undertaking the job".
>>>
>>
>>If I were totally against people learning on the job why would I  have
>>assembled the gas fitting FAQ? For which I get flak (from a few) and
>>thanks (from more).
> 
> 
> There's a limit to DIY, and gas is one of them.
> 
> Let's supposing you bought a house and the previous owner was a keen
> DIY'er, the previous owner fitted all his own gas installation, 2 weeks
> after moving into the property there's a gas explosion and one of your
> children died as a result...would you have the previous owner up in court
> or would you just sit back and do nothing?


But what if the gas installation had been installed by a DIY'er but 
completely sound and safe for 2-5 years before the sale?

I'd have imagined that if it's lasted that long, it's pretty much as 
safe as any other installation.  The only issues I can think of are:
1.) Lack of maintainance
2.) Joints failing
3.) Corrosion of pipework
4.) External damage

1.) - This is the same whether pro installed or DIY
2.) - Maybe a DIYer would use more compression joints, causing 
possibility of increased failure?
3.) - Maybe a DIYer didn't understand the interaction between copper and 
other materials - I'd hope a pro would
4.) - If someone's stuck a nail etc through a gas pipe - it sure isn't 
the installer's problem (unless he stuck it somewhere stupid - see 
earlier thread about gas pipe + floorboards).

Again - I would have assumed that in general, if an installation has 
been safe for a few years - the chances of a problem occuring due to 
installation is low.

Am I right?

D

ben wrote:

> Ed Sirett wrote:
>>If I were totally against people learning on the job why would I  have
>>assembled the gas fitting FAQ? For which I get flak (from a few) and
>>thanks (from more).
> 
> 
> There's a limit to DIY, and gas is one of them.


Some gas stuff is quite DIYable.



> Let's supposing you bought a house and the previous owner was a keen
> DIY'er, the previous owner fitted all his own gas installation, 2 weeks
> after moving into the property there's a gas explosion and one of your
> children died as a result...would you have the previous owner up in court
> or would you just sit back and do nothing?


It would of course depend on why the explosion happened. I also
doubt whether or not to prosecute would be one's own perogative.

In article <BYERe.100374$G8.41507@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
   ben  wrote:

> There's a limit to DIY, and gas is one of them.

Why?

> Let's supposing you bought a house and the previous owner was a keen
> DIY'er, the previous owner fitted all his own gas installation, 2 weeks
> after moving into the property there's a gas explosion and one of your
> children died as a result...would you have the previous owner up in court
> or would you just sit back and do nothing?


He could have done DIY wall removal and the entire house collapsed.
Killing everyone. So what's the difference?

Most dangerous bodges are done by cowboy 'builders' - not DIYers on their
own homes.

-- 
*Do paediatricians play miniature golf on Wednesdays?

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article <OiFRe.100390$G8.76656@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
   ben  wrote:

> Yes but you could sue the company that employed this pro(alledgedly),
> where as alls you would get from the DIY'er is a few months in clink.


You really think cowboy builders or unregistered gas installers will be
able to be sued?


> > Of course your child could be electrocuted too from faulty DIY work.
> > Is electricity off limits?

> Chances are the child would survive an electrical shock.. gas explosion
> I think not.


Have you any statistics on the number of serious explosions caused by DIY
gas work?

-- 
*I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message. 

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
[snip]

> Most dangerous bodges are done by cowboy 'builders' - not DIYers on
> their own homes.


lol didn't you watch..."Britains worst DIY'ers".

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:17:53 GMT, "ben"  wrote:



>There's a limit to DIY, and gas is one of them.


Not according to the law it isn't....  The requirement is to be
competent.   (Gas Safety Installation and Use Regulations).

If one is doing gas fitting for reward, then there is a requirement
for the individual or company to be a member of a class of persons
designated by the HSE.  Currently, the HSE requires this to be CORGI
membership.

The regulations were written following celebrated events such as Ronan
Point where cowboy fitters caused a major explosion, and to a
reasonable extent has achieved its aims.

If you look at the HSE web site, there is a section on gas safety
where there are discussions about whether or not DIY gas work is an
issue and should be banned.   The conclusion has consistently been
that it isn't an issue and that doing so is impractical anyway.


Obviously for most people, the sensible answer is to employ a
registered gas fitter.  However, this is no guarantee that the outcome
will be good quality work.  AIUI, CORGI only inspects about 2% of
installations, so unless the customer complains, there is not much
supervision.

One also has to consider that a DIYer competent to do his own work has
more skin in the game than a fitter in that if he screws up, he is
going to run the risk of blowing himself up.




>
>Let's supposing you bought a house and the previous owner was a keen
>DIY'er, the previous owner fitted all his own gas installation, 2 weeks
>after moving into the property there's a gas explosion and one of your
>children died as a result...would you have the previous owner up in court
>or would you just sit back and do nothing?
>

That would be a matter for the HSE, most likely.

However, you are either assuming that a DIY installation is
automatically bad and a professional one is good (which is not really
justifiable); or you prefer to take a conservative view and have the
responsibility for a situation pushed in the direction of the fitter
and his insurers.    There's nothing wrong with that, except that
everybody has their own views of how much or little risk they wish to
take.


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:

> On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:17:53 GMT, "ben"  wrote:
>
>
>> There's a limit to DIY, and gas is one of them.
>
> Not according to the law it isn't....  The requirement is to be
> competent.   (Gas Safety Installation and Use Regulations).
>
> If one is doing gas fitting for reward, then there is a requirement
> for the individual or company to be a member of a class of persons
> designated by the HSE.  Currently, the HSE requires this to be CORGI
> membership.
>
> The regulations were written following celebrated events such as Ronan
> Point where cowboy fitters caused a major explosion, and to a
> reasonable extent has achieved its aims.
>
> If you look at the HSE web site, there is a section on gas safety
> where there are discussions about whether or not DIY gas work is an
> issue and should be banned.   The conclusion has consistently been
> that it isn't an issue and that doing so is impractical anyway.
>
>
> Obviously for most people, the sensible answer is to employ a
> registered gas fitter.  However, this is no guarantee that the outcome
> will be good quality work.  AIUI, CORGI only inspects about 2% of
> installations, so unless the customer complains, there is not much
> supervision.
>
> One also has to consider that a DIYer competent to do his own work has
> more skin in the game than a fitter in that if he screws up, he is
> going to run the risk of blowing himself up.
>
>
>
>>
>> Let's supposing you bought a house and the previous owner was a keen
>> DIY'er, the previous owner fitted all his own gas installation, 2
>> weeks after moving into the property there's a gas explosion and one
>> of your children died as a result...would you have the previous
>> owner up in court or would you just sit back and do nothing?
>>
> That would be a matter for the HSE, most likely.
>
> However, you are either assuming that a DIY installation is
> automatically bad and a professional one is good (which is not really
> justifiable); or you prefer to take a conservative view and have the
> responsibility for a situation pushed in the direction of the fitter
> and his insurers.    There's nothing wrong with that, except that
> everybody has their own views of how much or little risk they wish to
> take.


Let's cut the crap and confusion here, GAS installation should be banned
from the DIY fraternity, end of.

Both I and my brother have installed gas boilers/combis in our own homes.
We considered ourselves 'competent' if not so at the start of the job, then
certainly by the end when we'd ironed out any little problems ( all jobs
have unexpected problems associated with them, so no, that does not
prove my incompetence! )

I would say that anyone doing such a job needs to have some mechanical/
electrical aptitude/experience, and also the ability to do the necessary 
research,
and the patience to do the necessary tests.

My only installation problem was a drying leak caused by being a smart-arse
and trying to use end-feed fittings with a mild flux, not realisng that the 
inside
of the fitting needed cleaning, as well as the pipe it was going on.

This newsgroup has been invaluable as a source of advice. Remember that the
people who come on here and ask what might appear to be naive questions
are at least trying to do it right. You want to be worried about the people 
who
never ask anyone and just steam headlong into a job. They wo't worry about
the regs anyway.

Andy.

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:59:07 GMT, "ben"  wrote:


>
>Let's cut the crap and confusion here, GAS installation should be banned
>from the DIY fraternity, end of.
>

Yes and we should ban chip pans since some people still attempt to
throw water at them when they catch fire.

Mr F.

In message , Mr Fizzion 
<wankel@rotary.engine> writes

>On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:17:53 GMT, "ben"  wrote:
>
>>Ed Sirett wrote:
>>> On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 08:01:11 +0000, s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:35:51 +0100, Ed Sirett
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And then think very seriously if you should be doing the job (?).
>>>>
>>>> Why?
>>>>
>>>> People come on here to ask advice about things they don't know or
>>>> need clarification on. Presumably the guy can make OK plumbing joints
>>>> otherwise he wouldn't be undertaking the job. If you can make an OK
>>>> water joint then you can make an OK gas joint. It ain't exactly
>>>> rocket science, is it?
>>>>
>>>> All he was asking was whether a commpression joint was an acceptable
>>>> way to make a gas joint, not whether it'd work or not. In other words
>>>> seeking clarification of the current regulations and accepted "best
>>>> practice". This news group is all about learning more about DIY and
>>>> how to do jobs properly.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps the answer to *any* question on uk.d-i-y should be "If you
>>>> don't know the answer then you shouldn't be undertaking the job".
>>>>
>>>
>>> If I were totally against people learning on the job why would I  have
>>> assembled the gas fitting FAQ? For which I get flak (from a few) and
>>> thanks (from more).
>>
>>There's a limit to DIY, and gas is one of them.
>>
>>Let's supposing you bought a house and the previous owner was a keen
>>DIY'er, the previous owner fitted all his own gas installation, 2 weeks
>>after moving into the property there's a gas explosion and one of your
>>children died as a result...would you have the previous owner up in court
>>or would you just sit back and do nothing?
>>
>Even if it were installed professionally you'd have the installer in
>court. There are probably more problems with rogue "professional"
>fitters than DIYers.
>

Which reminds me

A fitter brought a vaillant pcb in today for me to repair

he went back to the job - it didn't work

He hadn't turned the switch to the "on" position

Fuckin' DOHHHH



-- 
geoff

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:41:34 GMT, "ben"  wrote:


| Chances are the child would survive an electrical shock.. gas explosion I
| think not.

Actually people survive gas explosions quite regularly.  You regularly hear
on the Box, the house was demolished but the occupants walked out with
minor injuries.   

Not sure why, and I am *not* volunteering to be a test subject ;-) 

-- 
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> 
"Intelligent Design?" my knees say *not*.
"Intelligent Design?" my back says *not*.

Mr Fizzion wrote:

> On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:59:07 GMT, "ben"  wrote:
>
>>
>> Let's cut the crap and confusion here, GAS installation should be
>> banned from the DIY fraternity, end of.
>>
> Yes and we should ban chip pans since some people still attempt to
> throw water at them when they catch fire.
>
> Mr F.


That the best you can come up with?

Ho hum!

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:59:07 GMT, "ben"  wrote:



>
>Let's cut the crap and confusion here, GAS installation should be banned
>from the DIY fraternity, end of.
>


There's no confusion whatsoever.   If you don't wish to do your own
DIY gas work, that's your choice.   It really isn't for you to dictate
what others should and shouldn't do.

There are two reasons that a ban has not been done:

1) There is no reason in terms of reduction in problems to justify
doing so.

2) It is impossible to implement.

Given those facts, the HSE has taken the view that this is a
non-issue.


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article <sFIRe.100560$G8.75747@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, 
allo@h.co.uk says...

> Mr Fizzion wrote:
> > On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:59:07 GMT, "ben"  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Let's cut the crap and confusion here, GAS installation should be
> >> banned from the DIY fraternity, end of.
> >>
> > Yes and we should ban chip pans since some people still attempt to
> > throw water at them when they catch fire.
> >
> > Mr F.
> 
> That the best you can come up with?
> 
> Ho hum!
> 

Car maintenance?  Lots of things on a car could cause a serious accident 
if not done properly.

In message <LjHRe.100491$G8.23642@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, ben 
 writes

>> However, you are either assuming that a DIY installation is
>> automatically bad and a professional one is good (which is not really
>> justifiable); or you prefer to take a conservative view and have the
>> responsibility for a situation pushed in the direction of the fitter
>> and his insurers.    There's nothing wrong with that, except that
>> everybody has their own views of how much or little risk they wish to
>> take.
>
>Let's cut the crap and confusion here, GAS installation should be banned
>from the DIY fraternity, end of.
>

Nobody is stopping you from not doing your own gas installation, as for 
the rest of us, I think we can make our own decisions as to whether we 
should be doing it or not.

As I've mentioned before, there is only one gas connection in my house 
which wasn't done by me. It was done by a BG fitter when I was in 
Germany, and it's the only one in the house which leaked. So on average 
I'm >10 times better than BG, which is of course rubbish, but I, as an 
amateur made between 10 and 20 joints in the gas path without any 
leaking joints, they, as professionals made one which did.

I'll stick to doing my own work thank you



-- 
geoff

Mr Fizzion wrote:


> Of course your child could be electrocuted too from faulty DIY work.
> Is electricity off limits?


Or you could drown from faulty DIY plunbing work..........

Dave

ben wrote:

> lol didn't you watch..."Britains worst DIY'ers".


But that raises the question of 'should these people be allowed to dilute 
the gene pool'

Dave

s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:


>  If you can make an OK
> water joint then you can make an OK gas joint. It ain't exactly rocket
> science, is it?
>


Wahoo!  Sense at last!  Gas fitting in general is no different from plumbing 
in water.

Dave

In article <LjHRe.100491$G8.23642@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
   ben  wrote:

> Let's cut the crap and confusion here, GAS installation should be banned
> from the DIY fraternity, end of.


Then what are you doing on a DIY group? Trying to drum up business?

-- 
*Microsoft broke Volkswagen's record: They only made 21.4 million bugs.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article <ryGRe.100451$G8.28648@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
   ben  wrote:

> > Most dangerous bodges are done by cowboy 'builders' - not DIYers on
> > their own homes.

> lol didn't you watch..."Britains worst DIY'ers".


I work in TV, pet, and know full well that they'll use every trick in the
book to avoid reality.

-- 
*Do paediatricians play miniature golf on Wednesdays?

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message <fgLRe.1864$bi5.1223@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, david lang 
 writes

>s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:
>
>>  If you can make an OK
>> water joint then you can make an OK gas joint. It ain't exactly rocket
>> science, is it?
>>
>
>Wahoo!  Sense at last!  Gas fitting in general is no different from plumbing
>in water.
>

Except that it's well nigh impossible to get the pilot to light

-- 
geoff

Ed Sirett wrote:

> If I were totally against people learning on the job why would I  have
> assembled the gas fitting FAQ? For which I get flak (from a few) and
> thanks (from more). 


It's worthwhile to have an understanding of what and how something is to 
be done even if one pays a pro to actually do it, then one is in a 
better position to not be ripped off with unneccessary work, and to spot 
the (hopefully rare) CORGI who misses something safety-critical.

Surgeons give patients informative little leaflets about "Your Frontal 
Lobotomy" - it's not encouraging the patients to try DIY[1]

Owain

[1] And in the case of "You're Going To Hospital For IVF" presumably the 
patients have already been trying themselves without success.

Andy Hall wrote:

> There are two reasons that a ban has not been done:
> 1) There is no reason in terms of reduction in problems to justify
> doing so.
> 2) It is impossible to implement.


Didn't stop Part P though.

Owain

David Hearn wrote:

> I'd have imagined that if it's lasted that long, it's pretty much as 
> safe as any other installation.  The only issues I can think of are:
> 1.) Lack of maintainance
> 2.) Joints failing
> 3.) Corrosion of pipework
> 4.) External damage

> 1.) - This is the same whether pro installed or DIY


More likely if pro installed, as a DIYer would be more likely to be 
aware of the need for maintenance


> 2.) - Maybe a DIYer would use more compression joints, causing 
> possibility of increased failure?


A DIYer would be more likely to have leak detector and to follow up any 
gassy smell; an unaware person might wait for the smell to go away, 
especially if an intermittent fault.


> 3.) - Maybe a DIYer didn't understand the interaction between copper and 
> other materials - I'd hope a pro would


Offset to some degree by (1)


> 4.) - If someone's stuck a nail etc through a gas pipe - it sure isn't 
> the installer's problem (unless he stuck it somewhere stupid - see 
> earlier thread about gas pipe + floorboards).


A DIYer should known where his own pipes are.

Looks like DIY wins. However, modern electrical products and 
installations are usually well protected by RCD/MCB and very tolerant of 
less than best practice. Gas is less tolerant and can make very big 
messy bangs.

Owain

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 00:29:27 +0100, Owain
 wrote:


>Andy Hall wrote:
>> There are two reasons that a ban has not been done:
>> 1) There is no reason in terms of reduction in problems to justify
>> doing so.
>> 2) It is impossible to implement.
>
>Didn't stop Part P though.
>
>Owain
>
>

True - however there's a different situation.

Part P largely came about because of the lobbying by commercially
interested parties such as the ECA, NICEIC and others even though it
would bring into existence numerous providers of Competent Persons
Schemes.  Nevertheless, NICEIC remains the largest player and has the
"brand" recognition, at least for the moment.

In the area of gas, although there have periodically been discussions
by the HSE about having competition to CORGI, this has never really
gone anywhere.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/domestic/change.pdf

CORGI has been moderately successful at convincing Joe Public that DIY
gas work is illegal (actually they say "likely to be illegal" but
don't have the backing in law to say that it actually is).
Given those situations, plus the points mentioned above, there does
not appear to be significant commercial or political impetus to
implement a direct change to legislation.

However, there may be a back door to this through the Home Information
Pack nonsense.






-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On 1 Sep,  
     Dave Fawthrop  wrote:


> On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:41:34 GMT, "ben"  wrote:
> 
> 
> | Chances are the child would survive an electrical shock.. gas explosion I
> | think not.
> 
> Actually people survive gas explosions quite regularly.  You regularly hear
> on the Box, the house was demolished but the occupants walked out with
> minor injuries.   
> 
> Not sure why, and I am *not* volunteering to be a test subject ;-) 
> 

A gas explosion propogates fairly slowly, causing a mild overpressure over
the area of the walls, blowing them gently apart,allowing the roof to
collapse. High explosives, or the 'mixtures' used by terrorists explode much
more rapidly, giving a completely different form of damage, due to the higher
and more rapid pressure wave. 

So if you aren't squashed by the collapsing building, or hit by the windows
shooting past, you will be likely to escape hairless and deaf.
-- 
  B Thumbs
  Change lycos to yahoo to reply

Andy Hall wrote:


> > However, there may be a back door to this through the Home Information
> Pack nonsense.


But will Home Info Packs be enforcable? In the sense that nobody but a 
fool would trust a vendors survey and if its the right place at the 
right price someone will buy it regardless of the technicalities noted 
by their solicitor.

Factor in that by the time this is introduced there is likely to be an 
economic downturn and consequently a poor prospect for the housing 
market (and a government thinking about the next election). So either it 
gets delayed or estate agents desperate for business will offer 
something like 'Free Sellers Pack' which then being done in the most 
nominal low cost way possible will finally reduce it to irrelevance.

-- 
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 10:30:51 GMT, DJC
 wrote:


>Andy Hall wrote:
>
>> > However, there may be a back door to this through the Home Information
>> Pack nonsense.
>
>But will Home Info Packs be enforcable?


WHo knows?   The suggestion is that a vendor will have to provide one.

However, I agree with you that the notion is fundamentally flawed
commercially because as a buyer, I would want to satisfy myself of the
situation.  Whatever the apparent level of legal safeguard, the fact
of the seller paying nullifies the value as far as I am concerned -
it's an obvious conflict of interest.



> In the sense that nobody but a 
>fool would trust a vendors survey and if its the right place at the 
>right price someone will buy it regardless of the technicalities noted 
>by their solicitor.
>
>Factor in that by the time this is introduced there is likely to be an 
>economic downturn and consequently a poor prospect for the housing 
>market (and a government thinking about the next election). So either it 
>gets delayed or estate agents desperate for business will offer 
>something like 'Free Sellers Pack' which then being done in the most 
>nominal low cost way possible will finally reduce it to irrelevance.


I also agree here as well.   If it becomes a buyer's market, then the
vendor will have to absorb the cost.  I can also envisage a market for
worthless, absolute minimum legal requirement packs for a fixed price.

In other words, typical nanny state nonsense.


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

me9@privacy.net wrote:

> On 1 Sep,  
>      Dave Fawthrop  wrote:
> 
> 
>>On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:41:34 GMT, "ben"  wrote:
>>
>>
>>| Chances are the child would survive an electrical shock.. gas explosion I
>>| think not.
>>
>>Actually people survive gas explosions quite regularly.  You regularly hear
>>on the Box, the house was demolished but the occupants walked out with
>>minor injuries.   
>>
>>Not sure why, and I am *not* volunteering to be a test subject ;-) 
>>
> 
> A gas explosion propogates fairly slowly, causing a mild overpressure over
> the area of the walls, blowing them gently apart,allowing the roof to
> collapse. High explosives, or the 'mixtures' used by terrorists explode much
> more rapidly, giving a completely different form of damage, due to the higher
> and more rapid pressure wave. 
> 
> So if you aren't squashed by the collapsing building, or hit by the windows
> shooting past, you will be likely to escape hairless and deaf.


Not quite an identical example - but still involving gas, explosion and 
death...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4184962.stm

"Utility firm Transco has been fined 15m - a UK record - after being 
convicted on a charge arising from an explosion which killed four people."

"The blast, caused by a leaking gas main, destroyed the Findlays' home."

"Four members of the Findlay family died when their house in Carlisle 
Road, Larkhall, was totally destroyed in the early morning blast."

"Transco was convicted of failing to maintain the iron gas main which 
ran through the Findlays' garden when it was extensively corroded and 
leaking."

"A fridge was blown onto the roof of another house in the explosion. One 
witness described the scene as like a "war zone"."

"david lang"  wrote in message 
news:vaLRe.1860$bi5.88@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> Mr Fizzion wrote:
>
>> Of course your child could be electrocuted too from faulty DIY work.
>> Is electricity off limits?
>
> Or you could drown from faulty DIY plunbing work..........
>
> Dave
>
>

You had to involve dimm didn't you?

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:59:20 +0100, David Hearn
 wrote:



>Not quite an identical example - but still involving gas, explosion and 
>death...
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4184962.stm
>
>"Utility firm Transco has been fined 15m - a UK record - after being 
>convicted on a charge arising from an explosion which killed four people."
>
>"The blast, caused by a leaking gas main, destroyed the Findlays' home."
>
>"Four members of the Findlay family died when their house in Carlisle 
>Road, Larkhall, was totally destroyed in the early morning blast."
>
>"Transco was convicted of failing to maintain the iron gas main which 
>ran through the Findlays' garden when it was extensively corroded and 
>leaking."
>
>"A fridge was blown onto the roof of another house in the explosion. One 
>witness described the scene as like a "war zone"."


It was probably like a warzone beforehand anyway, but notwithstanding
that, does illustrate that involvement of the "professionals" does not
guarantee safety.


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
   Andy Hall <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote:

> >"Transco was convicted of failing to maintain the iron gas main which
> >ran through the Findlays' garden when it was extensively corroded and
> >leaking."
> >
> >"A fridge was blown onto the roof of another house in the explosion.
> >One witness described the scene as like a "war zone"."

> It was probably like a warzone beforehand anyway, but notwithstanding
> that, does illustrate that involvement of the "professionals" does not
> guarantee safety.


Ah - but Transco people who work on/check gas mains don't have to be CORGI
registered. If they did, this could never have happened. ;-(

-- 
*Isn't it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "practice?"

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Andy Hall wrote:


>>Factor in that by the time this is introduced there is likely to be an 
>>economic downturn and consequently a poor prospect for the housing 
>>market (and a government thinking about the next election). So either it 
>>gets delayed or estate agents desperate for business will offer 
>>something like 'Free Sellers Pack' which then being done in the most 
>>nominal low cost way possible will finally reduce it to irrelevance.
>
> I also agree here as well.   If it becomes a buyer's market, then the
> vendor will have to absorb the cost.  I can also envisage a market for
> worthless, absolute minimum legal requirement packs for a fixed price.


The other possibility if no one can put a house on the market without a 
sellers pack, and bearing in mind that the local search etc. part of it 
goes out of date after (I believe) three months, is a new category in 
the estate agents windows. Not 'for sale' but 'on view' perhaps or POA. 
So only when a buyer actually expresses a firm intention to buy will the 
    sellers pack be put together. so not really much change at all.


-- 
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:59:07 +0000, ben wrote:


> Andy Hall wrote:

> 
> Let's cut the crap and confusion here, GAS installation should be banned
> from the DIY fraternity, end of.


My view is 
1) DIY is unstoppable. 
2) Education is better than secrecy and ignorance. 

I try to take a middle line between your view point and that of
"s-p-o-n-i-x".

Obviously there are ranges of ability and experience. 
The dangerous DIYers are the ones whose confidence exceeds there
competance. 

-- 
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk 
Gas fitting FAQ  http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 23:30:27 +0100, Ed Sirett
 wrote:


>On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:59:07 +0000, ben wrote:
>
>> Andy Hall wrote:
>
>> 
>> Let's cut the crap and confusion here, GAS installation should be banned
>> from the DIY fraternity, end of.



Err....  I didn't write that, Ed....




>
>My view is 
>1) DIY is unstoppable. 
>2) Education is better than secrecy and ignorance. 
>
>I try to take a middle line between your view point and that of
>"s-p-o-n-i-x".
>
>Obviously there are ranges of ability and experience. 
>The dangerous DIYers are the ones whose confidence exceeds there
>competance. 


-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Shokka Wrote: 

> Am I correct in assuming that standard copper pipe can be used for gas
> work?
> 
> Also, is it acceptable to use compression fittings or should solder
> fittings be used?
> 
> (I have a situation where it will be very difficult to solder one of
> the joints without setting fire to something..much easier to use a
> compression fitting)
> 
> shokka

hi, copper pipe can be used for gas, and compression fittings are ok to
use aswell, PS, unless your suitably qualified dont touch gas,employ a
CORGI regestered gas engineer.


-- 
pacer

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 23:53:29 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:


> On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 23:30:27 +0100, Ed Sirett
>  wrote:
> 
>>On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:59:07 +0000, ben wrote:
>>
>>> Andy Hall wrote:
>>
>>> 
>>> Let's cut the crap and confusion here, GAS installation should be banned
>>> from the DIY fraternity, end of.
> 
> 
> Err....  I didn't write that, Ed....
> 
> 

Sorry,  probably due to some snipping on my part together with  my
newsreader (GPAN). 



-- 
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk 
Gas fitting FAQ  http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

ben wrote:


> Let's cut the crap and confusion here, GAS installation should be banned
> from the DIY fraternity, end of.


Nonsense... firstly there is very little that should be "banned" in my 
book. It is also pointless banning something that you are unable to 
police or enforce.

Secondly define "DIY". Should a person who's day job is as a gas fitter 
be banned from fitting his own appliances?


-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

John Rumm wrote:

> Should a person who's day job is as a gas fitter 
> be banned from fitting his own appliances?


Probably. Cobbler's children ...

Owain

ben wrote:


> Let's cut the crap and confusion here, GAS installation should be banned
> from the DIY fraternity, end of.


You wouldn't be CORGI registered by any chance, would you?

  If I were to compile a list of known instances of hair-raising
incompetence, then "gas men" would probably feature in three of the top
four or five positions.

  The HSE doesn't agree with you. I don't agree with you.  I have seen
incompetent/negligent "professionals" and competent,
"meta-professional" DIYers. I'm opposed to slovenly negligence.


>  GAS installation should be banned from the DIY fraternity,


   I'd propose that we ban CORGI registered personnel from all non-gas
installation and pipework because, IMHO, a lot of them haven't got a
clue; e.g., soldered copper (water) pipes dripping with gobs of active
flux, inadequate pipe supports, new installations containing no
inhibitors, mis-sold combi boilers, bone-head wiring, pathological
inability to RTFM, utterly clueless wrt chemical water treatment, ditto
thermal insulation, rusted radiators repeatedly replaced by Big Gas
company fitters over 10/15/20 years with no realization of the
underlying problem with the system (that they'd installed), etc. ,
etc., ad nauseam.

"It's yer pump, luv."
"It'll all 'ave to come out, mate."
"You can't get the parts for these any more."

Any of this sound familiar? The delusion that CORGI registration
confers technical competence is a very dangerous thing.

  I'd counter-propose that CORGI registration should require a test of
ethics and morality and the inspection of invoices submitted.