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Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
Evening All,

After recent comments about the capacity of the metrolink - 4 people per
square metre, I thought I might publish here for your delectation and
delight an article I wrote for RMT News.

Since the article was written originally as a speech in April and a
version of it was published in June, things have moved on a little, and
I've endeavoured to bring the article up to date.

===== Begin =====

For many years, the railways and tramways operated relatively happily
side by side. In the middle of the last century, tramways in our towns
and cities were dismantled, leaving only one, in Blackpool for many
years.

That was until a new generation of tramways, with fancy names like
Supertram, Tramlink or Metrolink came along. In Greater Manchester, the
Metrolink caught the imagination of the press, and there is a massive
campaign for the system to be expanded.

Part of this expansion plan takes in the Oldham Loop. This route forms a
major bulk of the work at Manchester Victoria depot, and Wigan Wallgate
also has a fair chunk of work that incorporates this route. It is true
that the route is in need of investment, but that can be said for whole
swathes of the rail network, but it is equally true that a lot of the
route's ills are as a direct result of the uncertainty surrounding the
route.

Now I'm not going to write against more public transport. However
converting the Oldham Loop is not providing additional public transport,
it is replacing one mode of transport with another, and when the two
modes are compared with an objective eye, it is clear that there are
very few benefits for conversion, in fact less money would be better
spent on improving the rail infrastructure on the route, rather than
wasting millions on chucking trains off the loop and putting trams on
instead.

Metrolink is essentially two very good former rail routes with a bit of
on-street running linking the two. The Bury line was regarded by old
hands as a good paying route, the trains always full. The Altrincham
route was considered no less favourable. Both were showing signs of wear
and tear, yet both were snatched from British Rail and turned into this
private edifice called Metrolink. A phase two route linking Manchester
with the Salford Quays and Eccles was opened roughly ten years later.
This extension has a longer stretch of on-street running which has
attracted it's own problems.

Since the phase one routes were opened, it appears that very little has
been spent on their infrastructure, the system is showing signs of age,
and it will cost in the region of 100 million to bring the
infrastructure back to 1990 standards. Money that they haven't got, but
they want to take yet more railway!

The powers that be in the area are desperate for the route. In 2002 when
the closure order for the Oldham Loop was granted, a document supporting
Metrolink conversion claimed that journey times on trams would be far
quicker than on trains, and that there was far more capacity than a
train.

Let's say those figures were somewhat distorted. The rail capacity
comparison was for the seated capacity of a single 142 set only, and did
not consider the charter capacity figure of 130% of the seating
capacity, and that's a figure routinely broken during the peaks on the
route by the way, the tram capacity figure was for a seated and standing
capacity of four persons per square metre of floor space.

Public support is mixed. On the lower half of the route, there is a lot
of support. On the upper stretches, beyond Shaw, it is quite hard to
find somebody in favour of trams.

The money needed to build the extensions has not been forthcoming, and
there is a campaign in the area called "Get our Metrolink back on
Track." They even re-liveried one of the trams with a whole body logo
with that message on. Ironically, that tram derailed in the middle of
the city centre on shoddy phase one track.

With a closure order granted, the route was essentially on borrowed
time. A pre-Metrolink timetable with only two trains per hour, a shuttle
service from Victoria stopping at all stations to Rochdale only ran from
December to June. Passenger numbers dropped like a stone. The service
reverted to the faster four trains in each direction per hour service
when the Summer timetable came into force, with through trains to Wigan
and Merseyside returning, and hopefully the passengers will return too,
but for how long will this service remain?

We need an end to the uncertainty once and for all, the now you have it,
now you don't is an insult to both rail users and staff.


Cheers,
-- 
Alex Holden
I don't speak for anybody but myself.
Date:Thu, 01 Sep 2005 00:22:25 +0100   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
I thought the ideal was that the tram would be diverted from the railway 
route to go through the centre of Oldham and also be extended at the 
Rochdale end to provide a route into the town centre,.  That was certainly 
the original idea.  This would remove two of the problems with the existing 
service - badly sited stations at Oldham and Rochdale.  At the moment no-one 
would use it to travel from say Milnrow to Rochdale as they are only taken 
as far as the Railway Station and they want to go to the centre of town so 
they use the bus.  The same is true of Shaw-Oldham etc.  I'm sure I once 
read that use of Hollinwood, Failsworth, etc is also pretty minimal - the 82 
bus is every 5 minutes and not a lot slower.  May be the trams could improve 
loadings.  It's also a big hill most of the way up to Oldham so 
electrification could speed it up.


That said the conversion is  non starter unless Shaw-Rochdale is doubled and 
the extensions are built.


The track on the \Bury line did seem to be pretty bad the last time I went 
up there,

"Alex Holden"  wrote in message 
news:i84ch1tn098l3fn1osm3nbrt321qh1hn7s@4ax.com...

> Evening All,
>
> After recent comments about the capacity of the metrolink - 4 people per
> square metre, I thought I might publish here for your delectation and
> delight an article I wrote for RMT News.
>
> Since the article was written originally as a speech in April and a
> version of it was published in June, things have moved on a little, and
> I've endeavoured to bring the article up to date.
>
> ===== Begin =====
>
> For many years, the railways and tramways operated relatively happily
> side by side. In the middle of the last century, tramways in our towns
> and cities were dismantled, leaving only one, in Blackpool for many
> years.
>
> That was until a new generation of tramways, with fancy names like
> Supertram, Tramlink or Metrolink came along. In Greater Manchester, the
> Metrolink caught the imagination of the press, and there is a massive
> campaign for the system to be expanded.
>
> Part of this expansion plan takes in the Oldham Loop. This route forms a
> major bulk of the work at Manchester Victoria depot, and Wigan Wallgate
> also has a fair chunk of work that incorporates this route. It is true
> that the route is in need of investment, but that can be said for whole
> swathes of the rail network, but it is equally true that a lot of the
> route's ills are as a direct result of the uncertainty surrounding the
> route.
>
> Now I'm not going to write against more public transport. However
> converting the Oldham Loop is not providing additional public transport,
> it is replacing one mode of transport with another, and when the two
> modes are compared with an objective eye, it is clear that there are
> very few benefits for conversion, in fact less money would be better
> spent on improving the rail infrastructure on the route, rather than
> wasting millions on chucking trains off the loop and putting trams on
> instead.
>
> Metrolink is essentially two very good former rail routes with a bit of
> on-street running linking the two. The Bury line was regarded by old
> hands as a good paying route, the trains always full. The Altrincham
> route was considered no less favourable. Both were showing signs of wear
> and tear, yet both were snatched from British Rail and turned into this
> private edifice called Metrolink. A phase two route linking Manchester
> with the Salford Quays and Eccles was opened roughly ten years later.
> This extension has a longer stretch of on-street running which has
> attracted it's own problems.
>
> Since the phase one routes were opened, it appears that very little has
> been spent on their infrastructure, the system is showing signs of age,
> and it will cost in the region of 100 million to bring the
> infrastructure back to 1990 standards. Money that they haven't got, but
> they want to take yet more railway!
>
> The powers that be in the area are desperate for the route. In 2002 when
> the closure order for the Oldham Loop was granted, a document supporting
> Metrolink conversion claimed that journey times on trams would be far
> quicker than on trains, and that there was far more capacity than a
> train.
>
> Let's say those figures were somewhat distorted. The rail capacity
> comparison was for the seated capacity of a single 142 set only, and did
> not consider the charter capacity figure of 130% of the seating
> capacity, and that's a figure routinely broken during the peaks on the
> route by the way, the tram capacity figure was for a seated and standing
> capacity of four persons per square metre of floor space.
>
> Public support is mixed. On the lower half of the route, there is a lot
> of support. On the upper stretches, beyond Shaw, it is quite hard to
> find somebody in favour of trams.
>
> The money needed to build the extensions has not been forthcoming, and
> there is a campaign in the area called "Get our Metrolink back on
> Track." They even re-liveried one of the trams with a whole body logo
> with that message on. Ironically, that tram derailed in the middle of
> the city centre on shoddy phase one track.
>
> With a closure order granted, the route was essentially on borrowed
> time. A pre-Metrolink timetable with only two trains per hour, a shuttle
> service from Victoria stopping at all stations to Rochdale only ran from
> December to June. Passenger numbers dropped like a stone. The service
> reverted to the faster four trains in each direction per hour service
> when the Summer timetable came into force, with through trains to Wigan
> and Merseyside returning, and hopefully the passengers will return too,
> but for how long will this service remain?
>
> We need an end to the uncertainty once and for all, the now you have it,
> now you don't is an insult to both rail users and staff.
>
>
> Cheers,
> -- 
> Alex Holden
> I don't speak for anybody but myself. 
Date:Thu, 1 Sep 2005 10:50:05 +0100   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
There is going to be little interest in the Rochdale area as it will
take 40 minutes to go from Rochdale to the city centre via Oldham.

There would be much more interest if the direct line via Castleton was
converted to Metrolink.  The line from Bradford to Manchester Victoria
could be terminated at Rochdale similar to the situation at Ormskirk.
Date:1 Sep 2005 05:05:22 -0700   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
Paul Rigg wrote:


> I'm sure I once read that use of Hollinwood, Failsworth, etc is also
> pretty minimal - the 82 bus is every 5 minutes and not a lot slower.



Gee!  Is there *still* a No.82 bus from Hollinwood?  I used to go to
school on an 82 bus - that was 60 years ago!  Does it still go to
Chorlton, I wonder?  And is there still a No.98 and a 53?

-- 
DB.
Date:Thu, 01 Sep 2005 12:12:57 GMT   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
DB. wrote:

>
> Gee!  Is there *still* a No.82 bus from Hollinwood?  I used to go to
> school on an 82 bus - that was 60 years ago!  Does it still go to
> Chorlton, I wonder?  And is there still a No.98 and a 53?
>


The 82 stopped going to Chorlton after deregulation (1986).

The 82 (Manchester to Waterhead) and 83 (Manchester to Sholver) both
run every 10 minutes Monday to Saturday daytime, giving a 5 minute
service between Manchester and Oldham (in the evening and Sunday, the
82 and 83 are every 30 minutes giving a 15 minute service between
Manchester and Oldham).  In addition, the recently revamped 180/184
also runs every 10 minutes between Saddleworth and Manchester via
Oldham and Hollinwood (same route as the 82/83 between Hollinwood and
Manchester).

This means that there are 18 buses per hour between Oldham, Hollinwood,
Failsworth and Manchester.

82/83/180/184 are all run with brand new (05 reg) high-spec Wright
bodied Volvos (double glazing and air conditioning unlike Pacers).

The long running 53 continues to go from Cheetham Hill to Old Trafford
via Belle Vue.  For a short while in the late 80s it was extended
through Salford to create a complete circle but it has now reverted
back to its historic route.  The 98 today goes from Bury to Manchester
via Radcliffe and Prestwich, but I don't know if that is similar to the
98 which ran 60 years ago
(http://www.gmpte.com/upload/routemaps/98_24973.pdf).
Date:1 Sep 2005 05:41:23 -0700   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
Roger Jones, Director of the GMPTE has fairly strong views on anyone
who dares to challenge the perceived wisdom of his beloved trams.

"You're a railway enthusiast" he said disparagingly of me on the
Beswick programme a while ago when I asked why anyone would spend half
an hour on a tram compared with eight minutes by train - Victoria to
Eccles.

The suggestion of replacement of the Oldham Loop service like for like,
with better interchange and park and ride was dismissed out of hand.

Yes in their place trams may have a role - like Trafford Bar to East
Didsbury or Higher Sheffield Street to Ashton, but Victoria to Oldham
and Rochdale isn't one of them
Date:1 Sep 2005 07:37:28 -0700   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
In article ,
   Richard Adamfi  wrote:

> There is going to be little interest in the Rochdale area as it will
> take 40 minutes to go from Rochdale to the city centre via Oldham.


But it will be useful to people wanting to go to Oldham from Rochdale, or
vice versa.


> There would be much more interest if the direct line via Castleton was
> converted to Metrolink.  The line from Bradford to Manchester Victoria
> could be terminated at Rochdale similar to the situation at Ormskirk.


And lose all the passengers from West Yorkshire.

-- 
David Wild using RISC OS on broadband
Date:Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:03:43 +0100   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
David H Wild wrote:


> But it will be useful to people wanting to go to Oldham from Rochdale, or
> vice versa.


Possibly, but the railway line is even indirect between Rochdale and
Oldham.  It takes 20 minutes by train, but the 409 bus (about every
5-10 minutes with brand new high spec single deckers) only takes about
25 minutes as it goes direct via Royton.


> And lose all the passengers from West Yorkshire.


Of course, that is a big risk.  Would I be right in saying that there
was a big loss in Preston to Liverpool trade when the severing at
Ormskirk happened?
Date:1 Sep 2005 11:01:09 -0700   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
"Richard Adamfi"  wrote

>
> > And lose all the passengers from West Yorkshire.
>
> Of course, that is a big risk.  Would I be right in saying that there
> was a big loss in Preston to Liverpool trade when the severing at
> Ormskirk happened?
>

Preston to Liverpool passengers were diverted via Wigan, and now have hourly
through trains.

I don't know the Oldham and Rochdale line, but the Wimbledon - Croydon trams
carry far more passengers than the BR shuttle service via Mitcham used to,
even though the through journey takes about twice as long. Similarly, the
bits of the Elmers End to Addiscombe and Selsdon branches that have been
taken over by Tramlink are far more use than they were under BR.

As for Manchester Victoria - Rochdale direct, has any thought been given to
joint running (cf Sunderland), or sharing the right of way with two mainly
single tracks (cf Birkbeck - Beckenham Junction)?

Peter
Date:Thu, 1 Sep 2005 18:27:22 +0000 (UTC)   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
In article ,
   TBirdFrank  wrote:

> Roger Jones, Director of the GMPTE has fairly strong views on anyone
> who dares to challenge the perceived wisdom of his beloved trams.

> "You're a railway enthusiast" he said disparagingly of me on the
> Beswick programme a while ago when I asked why anyone would spend half
> an hour on a tram compared with eight minutes by train - Victoria to
> Eccles.


I don't suppose many non-enthusiasts will use the tram in preference to the
train for the full journey - except that the comparison doesn't take into
account your eventual destination in Manchester or the service frequency.
For a journey at an arbitrary time from Eccles to somewhere near Piccadilly
Gardens the tram is probably as quick.

More to the point, the tram provides for travel to all the offices near
Salford Quays, from either Manchester or Eccles, and the train doesn't.

-- 
David Wild using RISC OS on broadband
Date:Thu, 01 Sep 2005 19:22:48 +0100   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
On 1 Sep 2005 07:37:28 -0700, "TBirdFrank"
 wrote:


>Roger Jones, Director of the GMPTE has fairly strong views on anyone
>who dares to challenge the perceived wisdom of his beloved trams.
>
>"You're a railway enthusiast" he said disparagingly of me on the
>Beswick programme a while ago when I asked why anyone would spend half
>an hour on a tram compared with eight minutes by train - Victoria to
>Eccles.


It is quicker by quite a margin to travel by *bus*, never mind train.
That is why it (beyond Salford Quays at least) is a complete nonsense.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.
Date:Thu, 01 Sep 2005 18:30:00 GMT   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
On 1 Sep 2005 11:01:09 -0700, "Richard Adamfi"
 wrote:


>Of course, that is a big risk.  Would I be right in saying that there
>was a big loss in Preston to Liverpool trade when the severing at
>Ormskirk happened?


Probably not; expresses still run but via Wigan and St Helens instead.
The Ormskirk line typically draws in very local flows plus those
starting at stations probably not south of Maghull wanting to go
somewhere via Preston.

The difference with the North West is that the rail network is *very*
dense compared with anywhere else in the UK barring London, and is
also not only radial.  This helps in such diversions.

I would expect that the loss of direct Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh
services lost a number of passengers for those destinations, but that
is another matter entirely - and the complete loss of such services
only took place in the last 5 years anyhow.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.
Date:Thu, 01 Sep 2005 18:34:44 GMT   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
In article ,
   Richard Adamfi  wrote:

> > And lose all the passengers from West Yorkshire.

> Of course, that is a big risk.  Would I be right in saying that there
> was a big loss in Preston to Liverpool trade when the severing at
> Ormskirk happened?


I've no idea about Ormskirk, but I don't think that there would be anywhere
near the same amount of traffic as Bradford/Halifax to Manchester.

-- 
David Wild using RISC OS on broadband
Date:Thu, 01 Sep 2005 22:17:06 +0100   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
David H Wild wrote:

> In article ,
>    Richard Adamfi  wrote:
> > There is going to be little interest in the Rochdale area as it will
> > take 40 minutes to go from Rochdale to the city centre via Oldham.
>
> But it will be useful to people wanting to go to Oldham from Rochdale, or
> vice versa.


Why would it? Metrolink will be a disaster on the Oldham Loop if it
ever comes to pass. Rochdale - Oldham passengers would use the bus as
they do now - quicker and cheaper than Metrolink and has integrated
ticketing. Passengers wanting to get to the places inbetween have the
pleasure of longer journey times, higher fares and non-integrated
tickets. Passengers going from Oldham to manchester lose their express
trains and get stopping trams - plus the higher fares and
non-integrated tickets.

And don't forget that the "new" infrastructure will undoubtedly be
"new" in the same way the Bury and Altrincham lines were new -
knackered track left in situ to deteriorate still further.


> > There would be much more interest if the direct line via Castleton was
> > converted to Metrolink.  The line from Bradford to Manchester Victoria
> > could be terminated at Rochdale similar to the situation at Ormskirk.
>
> And lose all the passengers from West Yorkshire.


How about not converting any lines to metrolink. Extend the network on
old trackbeds or along roads. Converting railways lines is a way of
avoiding investment.

Ian
Date:2 Sep 2005 05:21:46 -0700   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
On 2 Sep 2005 05:21:46 -0700, "Ian Bailey"
 wrote:


>How about not converting any lines to metrolink. Extend the network on
>old trackbeds or along roads. Converting railways lines is a way of
>avoiding investment.


ITYM "converting railway lines is a way of avoiding operating
subsidy", as that is why GMPTE likes the idea.

The correct solution for the Oldham loop (or certainly the southern
part of it) is 25kV and metro-style EMUs to start building Manchester
a decent S-Bahn network.  The West Yorkshire DMUs could of course run
on these lines as well as required.  I can think of many other lines
in Manchester which would benefit from this kind of approach.

The correct solution for Eccles was the existing bus service, perhaps
with some new bus lanes, raised platform stops and priority at all
sets of traffic lights.

I am in two minds about Salford Quays itself, but a high-quality bus
route or a new station at Throstles' Nest (perhaps to interchange with
the Altrincham line, with expresses calling, and perhaps replacing
Manchester United Halt) would have been both helpful and vastly
cheaper.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.
Date:Fri, 02 Sep 2005 18:20:45 GMT   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
Neil Williams wrote:

{many points I agree with totally]


> 
> I am in two minds about Salford Quays itself, but a high-quality bus
> route or a new station at Throstles' Nest (perhaps to interchange with
> the Altrincham line, with expresses calling, and perhaps replacing
> Manchester United Halt) would have been both helpful and vastly
> cheaper.


The Salford Quays line is well used (especially in the
contra-peak direction by people travelling to work
in the Quays) but the Broadway - Eccles section appears
to me to have been a mistake. At would have been far better
go to the Lowry using the proposed branch aligment.

Also, an interchange with NR is obviously needed at
Cornbrook, with the Northern EMU services extended
beyond Deansgate.

I travelled from Piccadilly to Broadway today and
the trams were being delayed by some problem with
the traffic lights outside Piccadilly station
which meant that trams were having to make
their own way across the road by nudging out
of the station and hoping cars would move
out of their way....

Charlie
Date:Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:02:06 GMT   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
DB. wrote:


> Paul Rigg wrote:
> 
> 
>>I'm sure I once read that use of Hollinwood, Failsworth, etc is also
>>pretty minimal - the 82 bus is every 5 minutes and not a lot slower.
> 
> 
> 
> Gee!  Is there *still* a No.82 bus from Hollinwood?  I used to go to
> school on an 82 bus - that was 60 years ago!  Does it still go to
> Chorlton, I wonder? 


What, and provide a useful cross-city service? No chance!

The direct route from High Street through Piccadilly bus station
is now closed to buses, blocked by the Market Street Metrolink
station.

Charlie
Date:Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:12:58 GMT   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
Richard Adamfi wrote:


> There is going to be little interest in the Rochdale area as it will
> take 40 minutes to go from Rochdale to the city centre via Oldham.
> 
> There would be much more interest if the direct line via Castleton was
> converted to Metrolink.  The line from Bradford to Manchester Victoria
> could be terminated at Rochdale similar to the situation at Ormskirk.
> 

  Much more interest? Much more outcry, more like. A major freight
route would be lost, apart from anything else.

Charlie
Date:Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:14:46 GMT   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
Peter Masson wrote:


> I don't know the Oldham and Rochdale line, but the Wimbledon - Croydon 
> trams carry far more passengers than the BR shuttle service via 
> Mitcham used to, even though the through journey takes about twice as 
> long.


The difference is that the frequency was upped from 40/45 minutes [1]
to 12 minutes, which makes a huge difference. 40/45 minutes is in many
ways a _less_ usable frequency than hourly.


> Similarly, the bits of the Elmers End to Addiscombe and Selsdon 
> branches that have been taken over by Tramlink are far more use than 
> they were under BR.


Because they now provide a direct link to Croydon. The Addiscombe to
Elmers End branch previously ran towards London only - Addiscombe was
a terminus. But at least as many people from that area commute to
Croydon as to London. Likewise, the Selsdon line [2] avoided the main
local centre, Croydon, instead providing an indirect route to London.

It is no wonder that these lines are much more popular with Tramlink,
but this in no way suggests that the same would be true of the Oldham
Loop; these stations already have frequent and direct trains to
Manchester.
 

> As for Manchester Victoria - Rochdale direct, has any thought been 
> given to joint running (cf Sunderland), or sharing the right of way 
> with two mainly single tracks (cf Birkbeck - Beckenham Junction)?


Given the problems we've seen with the Sunderland Metro line, and the
mainline rail having to cut back and being very restricted in what
they can run, I would be sceptical about the merits of applying that
system elsewhere.

Likewise, two mainly single track lines give very restricted capacity.
The route from Rochdale direct to Manchester is many times longer than
the Birkbeckenham section. It would be very difficult to run a robust
service with that arrangement over a 10 mile route.


[1] I can't remember which!
[2] Bit of a random name, seeing as it is several miles from Selsdon!

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________
Date:Fri, 02 Sep 2005 21:22:21 +0100   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 08:00:38 GMT, in article
, wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
Williams) wrote in uk.railway: 


>On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:12:58 GMT, Charlie Hulme
> wrote:
>
>>What, and provide a useful cross-city service? No chance!
>
>That's how more or less all services are provided in Milton Keynes -
>but I do wonder if the traffic levels in Manchester would cause very
>poor reliability if you tried it there these days.
>
>>The direct route from High Street through Piccadilly bus station
>>is now closed to buses, blocked by the Market Street Metrolink
>>station.
>
>True, but Cross Street does provide for through running if it is
>required.


Not for much longer, latest big idea as mooted (and supported) by the
Evening News is to close Cross Street to buses.

How buses are supposed to reach Salford from the new bus station (when
it's finished) on Sudehill has clearly not been considered. I don't
think that the ring road will be able to cope with the numbers of buses
that would be forced down it, as there's only two ways in and out of
Sudehill. Corporation Street / Victoria Approach / Hunts Bank / Victoria
Street then either left and right onto Chapel Street (when it re-opens)
or right onto Great Ducie Street, then Trinity Way and Chapel Street but
going through Victoria is one way. The other way is Chapel Street /
Trinity Way (avoiding the city completely and sticking to the ring road)
or Chapel Street / Victoria Street / Great Ducie Street / Trinity Way.
That's it, unless you're goingt to see queues of buses trying to turn
right off Cheetham Hill Road onto Corporation Street to swing left
handed onto Sudehill at the point where buses would be banned.

The whole idea would be poppycock and stupidity of the highest order.

Cheers,
Chris Pemberton, Pendleton, Salford, Lancs.
-- 
This post contains my personal opinion only. If I am in a position to
speak for somebody I'll say so.
Date:Mon, 05 Sep 2005 00:10:59 +0100   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
Repeat after me 

SHudehill
Date:5 Sep 2005 06:08:24 -0700   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
Chris Pemberton wrote:

>
> How buses are supposed to reach Salford from the new bus station (when
> it's finished) on Sudehill has clearly not been considered.


In Ye Olden Dayes [TM], Salford buses never needed to cross the Irwell
in the first place. Perhaps the Grand Plan is for them to stay in
Salford and use Exchange bus station (so convenient for the Flat Iron
Market).

Anyway, don't forget that Cross Street doesn't go any further north
than the crossroads with St Mary's Gate and Market Street. Beyond there
it's Corporation Street. I /think/ the idea is keep buses, and the
various cars and vans that ignore the traffic signs, out of the busiest
part of Cross Street itself (that's busy in pedestrian terms, I mean).
So Salford buses could just come over Blackfriars bridge and then use
Corporation Street and Shudehill, returning via Victoria Station and
Exchange Bus Station.
-- 
Pat Ricroft, City of Salford, UK
================================
Date:5 Sep 2005 06:38:04 -0700   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
Warrabout the 66 to Ashton via the Old Road - a joint service with MCTD

Nice to see 511 and others at Heaton Park yesterday keeping the olive
green and silver roof alive
Date:5 Sep 2005 08:31:05 -0700   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
TBirdFrank wrote:

> Warrabout the 66 to Ashton via the Old Road - a joint service with
> MCTD


Weren't trolley-buses used on that route for many years?  Both MCTD and 
Ashton Corporation had trolley-buses IIRC.

-- 
DB.
Date:Mon, 05 Sep 2005 15:42:09 GMT   Author:  

Re: Metrolink & The Oldham Loop   
On 5 Sep 2005 06:38:04 -0700, "Pat Ricroft" 
wrote:


>In Ye Olden Dayes [TM], Salford buses never needed to cross the Irwell
>in the first place. Perhaps the Grand Plan is for them to stay in
>Salford and use Exchange bus station (so convenient for the Flat Iron
>Market).


Perhaps.  But one of the things I've found in Milton Keynes (which,
admittedly, does not suffer from serious traffic problems that would
cause a disadvantage in other cities, and that has one handy long road
running more or less the length of the centre) is that cross-city bus
routes are very useful in a number of ways:-

- they minimise the walk to the bus, and so improve the attractiveness
and therefore the viability of the service;
- they provide (a few people with) a through service potentially to
somewhere useful;
- they allow more useful connections to be made as more routes are
brought together at some point in their journey;
- they reduce the amount of city centre real estate needing to be
dedicated to bus stations[1] and layover locations;
- one cross city service is cheaper to operate than two radial
services, as the buses don't have to lay over in the city centre for
as long (though it could be argued that the end point layover times
should double because of the double-length route).

There are probably others.  Completely removing this possibility
strikes me as a bit silly.  That said, the ludicrous splitting of GM
Buses into separate North and South companies didn't help any
possibility of this in the future, especially as Metrolink was built
as a through route rather than a purely connectional one, showing that
there was some sense in it...

[1] Yes, I know MK still has a bus station; it's more of a depot these
days, and a handy place to use if you want to run your own private
coach to somewhere.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.
Date:Mon, 05 Sep 2005 17:53:05 GMT   Author: