im puzzled and would like theory, dont want to do practical :)

if im in a metal bath ,which is earthed, full of water, and i drop an 
electrical appliance into the water (not onto me), would i be electrocuted, 
or would the electricitcy immeditely go to earth leaving me unscathed, as i 
would assume there would be no potential difference between me and the water 
.. unless the electricity had to go through me to get to the water.

i know that if touched a live wire and it eathed through me i would be 
electrocuted due to potential diff,

alternatively if i stand on a 10,000 volt live wire which lies  in a muddly 
puddle , would i be ok as surely the electricity would again flow to the 
earth mass and not through me,

promise im not planning on trying any  on SWMBO.

honest

mick wrote:

> im puzzled and would like theory, dont want to do practical :)
>
> if im in a metal bath ,which is earthed, full of water, and i drop an
> electrical appliance into the water (not onto me), would i be
> electrocuted, or would the electricitcy immeditely go to earth
> leaving me unscathed, as i would assume there would be no potential
> difference between me and the water . unless the electricity had to
> go through me to get to the water.
>
> i know that if touched a live wire and it eathed through me i would be
> electrocuted due to potential diff,
>
> alternatively if i stand on a 10,000 volt live wire which lies  in a
> muddly puddle , would i be ok as surely the electricity would again
> flow to the earth mass and not through me,
>
> promise im not planning on trying any  on SWMBO.
>
> honest


Theory is ok, but there's nothing better than the practice. ;-)

In article <RapQe.30826$5m3.1481@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
	"mick"  writes:

>im puzzled and would like theory, dont want to do practical :)
>
>if im in a metal bath ,which is earthed, full of water, and i drop an 
>electrical appliance into the water (not onto me), would i be electrocuted, 
>or would the electricitcy immeditely go to earth leaving me unscathed, as i 
>would assume there would be no potential difference between me and the water 
>.. unless the electricity had to go through me to get to the water.


The electricity goes through the water and you to get to the
grounded bath. You probably conduct better than the water
(being full of electrolites), so it will tend to concentrate
slightly more through you.


>i know that if touched a live wire and it eathed through me i would be 
>electrocuted due to potential diff,
>
>alternatively if i stand on a 10,000 volt live wire which lies  in a muddly 
>puddle , would i be ok as surely the electricity would again flow to the 
>earth mass and not through me,


'Stand' implies 2 feet on the ground. If there's a potential
difference between them, current will pass through you. Cows
are particularly prone to this because their feet are further
apart (so there's like to be a higher potential difference
between their feet than yours), the current goes through the
chest area which is more likely to be fatal, they can't stand
on one leg or otherwise stop the current flow, and they seem
to be susceptable to much lower currents than we are.
There are cases where an electricity pylon in a field has
started leaking current to ground and killed all the cows in
the field, but this is undetectable by humans and the cause
of death is unlikely to be immediately obvious.

-- 
Andrew Gabriel

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 20:31:45 GMT, "mick"
 wrote:


>im puzzled and would like theory, dont want to do practical :)
>
>if im in a metal bath ,which is earthed, full of water, and i drop an 
>electrical appliance into the water (not onto me), would i be electrocuted, 


An appliance connected to 230v mains? Without any doubt at all.

An electric field would be set up in the bathwater between the live
parts of the appliance and whatever is earthed in the bath (an earthed
metal bath might still have an insulating vitreous enamel coating, the
waste connection might be plastic). On the whole I think there would
always be a good enough earth under all circumstances to permit a
fatal current to flow.  


>or would the electricitcy immeditely go to earth leaving me unscathed, as i 
>would assume there would be no potential difference between me and the water 
>. unless the electricity had to go through me to get to the water.


Nope it doesn't take a simple straight line route to earth. It flows
through all the bathwater, true the current density is in inverse
proportion to the resistance (~ physical length) of the path but
there'll always be enough to supply the 10 ma it takes to induce
ventricular fibrillation.


>
>i know that if touched a live wire and it eathed through me i would be 
>electrocuted due to potential diff,
>
>alternatively if i stand on a 10,000 volt live wire which lies  in a muddly 
>puddle , would i be ok as surely the electricity would again flow to the 
>earth mass and not through me,


No, same applies, and not just in the puddle, in the surrounding soil
also.

In uni we did the calcs to show that you don't have to be struck by
lightening to get electrocuted by it. Within say 10 metres of
lightening striking the ground the electrical field strength during
the strike could be as much as 1,500,000 volts per metre. Stand with
your feet 1 metre apart and that's what you'll get.


>promise im not planning on trying any  on SWMBO.
>
>honest 


Just remember, stand on *one foot* in thunderstorms.

On tiptoe.

DG

"ben"  wrote in message 
news:%ipQe.98005$G8.43021@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> mick wrote:
>> im puzzled and would like theory, dont want to do practical :)
>>
>> if im in a metal bath ,which is earthed, full of water, and i drop an
>> electrical appliance into the water (not onto me), would i be
>> electrocuted, or would the electricitcy immeditely go to earth
>> leaving me unscathed, as i would assume there would be no potential
>> difference between me and the water . unless the electricity had to
>> go through me to get to the water.
>>
>> i know that if touched a live wire and it eathed through me i would be
>> electrocuted due to potential diff,
>>
>> alternatively if i stand on a 10,000 volt live wire which lies  in a
>> muddly puddle , would i be ok as surely the electricity would again
>> flow to the earth mass and not through me,
>>
>> promise im not planning on trying any  on SWMBO.
>>
>> honest
>
> Theory is ok, but there's nothing better than the practice. ;-)


I happened in one of the Bond films in the 60's so it must be true.  Can't 
remember which one, but the guy who hurled the electric fire into the bath 
and dispatched the baddie was one S. Connery.

mick wrote :

> im puzzled and would like theory, dont want to do practical :)
>
> if im in a metal bath ,which is earthed, full of water, and i drop an 
> electrical appliance into the water (not onto me), would i be electrocuted, 
> or would the electricitcy immeditely go to earth leaving me unscathed, as i 
> would assume there would be no potential difference between me and the water 
> . unless the electricity had to go through me to get to the water.
>


The current flow/voltage gradient would be dispersed throughout the the 
bath water dependant upon the resistance paths, with the lowest flow 
across the longest paths to ground. As the human body will likely have 
a lower resistance than the surrounding water, flow would be 
concentrated through it.

Most of the resistance when the body is dry, will be concentrated in 
the skin - which is why the used to wet the skin when placing a 
'customer' in the electric chair. So when wet, much less voltage 
potential would be needed to kill.

-- 

Regards,
        Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.org

> 'Stand' implies 2 feet on the ground. If there's a potential
> difference between them, current will pass through you. Cows
> are particularly prone to this because their feet are further
> apart


I know of a horse that died in similar circumstances. Can't go into any 
more detail as there may be legal action still pending.

Oh, and the vet got a good jolt too when he put his hand in the horses' 
mouth :-}

Now you know why electric companies are not supposed to provide earths 
to farms with livestock - its the consumers' problem to make sure their 
earthing is up to scratch.

-- 
Please add the word "newsgroup" in the subject line of personal emails
**** My email address includes "ngspamtrap" and "@btinternet.com" ****

"mick"  wrote:


>im puzzled and would like theory, dont want to do practical :)
>
>if im in a metal bath ,which is earthed, full of water, and i drop an 
>electrical appliance into the water (not onto me), would i be electrocuted, 
>or would the electricitcy immeditely go to earth leaving me unscathed, as i 
>would assume there would be no potential difference between me and the water 
>. unless the electricity had to go through me to get to the water.
>
>i know that if touched a live wire and it eathed through me i would be 
>electrocuted due to potential diff,
>
>alternatively if i stand on a 10,000 volt live wire which lies  in a muddly 
>puddle , would i be ok as surely the electricity would again flow to the 
>earth mass and not through me,
>
>promise im not planning on trying any  on SWMBO.
>
>honest 
>


Oh how I wish you were a IMM clone!


--

On 28 Aug 2005 21:05:41 GMT, andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:



>There are cases where an electricity pylon in a field has
>started leaking current to ground and killed all the cows in
>the field, but this is undetectable by humans and the cause
>of death is unlikely to be immediately obvious.


To the people investigating who were all wearing green wellies?

But seriously, couldn't it be more likely the case that there was a
single isolated flashover caused by a large bird colliding with an
insulator?

DG

Derek ^  wrote:


>On 28 Aug 2005 21:05:41 GMT, andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew
>Gabriel) wrote:
>
>
>>There are cases where an electricity pylon in a field has
>>started leaking current to ground and killed all the cows in
>>the field, but this is undetectable by humans and the cause
>>of death is unlikely to be immediately obvious.
>
>To the people investigating who were all wearing green wellies?
>
>But seriously, couldn't it be more likely the case that there was a
>single isolated flashover caused by a large bird colliding with an
>insulator?


A flashover could case the same thing but you can quite easily get a
resistive continuous fault (an insulator failing and the overhead line
dropping and touching a stone wall or a tree) rather than directly
touching the ground - that means the current can continuously flow
through the ground as it closely resembles true load and not a fault.
The voltage effectively drops from the voltage at the fault location
to zero at the earth point. Small steps taken by a human can mean no
shock, large steps (or space between points of contact) by a farm
animal can mean a big shock and death.


--

mick  wrote:

> im puzzled and would like theory, dont want to do practical :)
> 
> if im in a metal bath ,which is earthed, full of water, and i drop an 
> electrical appliance into the water (not onto me), would i be electrocuted, 
> or would the electricitcy immeditely go to earth leaving me unscathed, as i 
> would assume there would be no potential difference between me and the water 
> . unless the electricity had to go through me to get to the water.


It depends.
If your house has a RCD, and the appliance is earthed, or the bath is earthed
and has metalwork exposed to water, then the answer is that you can throw
electrical appliances into it without worry. (more or less).

However, if you are relying on the fuse in the appliance, then it usually
will not go immediately - bathwater isn't a very good conductor.
A metal bath may actually make things worse.
In most appliances, live and neutral are fairly close together.
Considering a non-earthed bath, it may actually be not immediately lethal.
Basically, you need a certain amount of voltage, as well as current to
do damage.
From some googling, I guesstimate that 30V AC across the chest is needed
in order to get fibrilation.
In order to get voltage across the chest, there has to be a voltage
gradient in the water.
This means that unless you're talking about a large heater (convector type,
not fan) dropped in the water, the path from the live wires through the
water to one side of the chest has to be significantly easier than
to the other - and the same for neutral - otherwise there is no net
voltage across the chest.

I'd go so far as to say that for a small device dropped in next to your
feet, in a non-earthed bath, the risk of death due to immediate cardiac 
failure is near zero.

An earthed bath makes it much, much more dangerous.

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 00:44:12 +0100, Matt 
wrote:


>Derek ^  wrote:
>
>>On 28 Aug 2005 21:05:41 GMT, andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew
>>Gabriel) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>There are cases where an electricity pylon in a field has
>>>started leaking current to ground and killed all the cows in
>>>the field, but this is undetectable by humans and the cause
>>>of death is unlikely to be immediately obvious.
>>
>>To the people investigating who were all wearing green wellies?
>>
>>But seriously, couldn't it be more likely the case that there was a
>>single isolated flashover caused by a large bird colliding with an
>>insulator?
>
>A flashover could case the same thing but you can quite easily get a
>resistive continuous fault (an insulator failing and the overhead line
>dropping and touching a stone wall or a tree) rather than directly
>touching the ground - that means the current can continuously flow
>through the ground


I thought a fault was detected soon enough that a dropped cable was
dead before it hit the ground.


> as it closely resembles true load and not a fault.


Well a fallen conductor should be obvious to the green wellied ones.


>The voltage effectively drops from the voltage at the fault location
>to zero at the earth point. Small steps taken by a human can mean no
>shock, large steps (or space between points of contact) by a farm
>animal can mean a big shock and death.


Could also be that Bovine quadrupeds don't know, and get few clues as
to "which way to turn" to minimise their electric shocks.

DG

In message , Derek ^ 
 writes

>On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 00:44:12 +0100, Matt 
>wrote:
>
>>Derek ^  wrote:
>>
>>>On 28 Aug 2005 21:05:41 GMT, andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew
>>>Gabriel) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>There are cases where an electricity pylon in a field has
>>>>started leaking current to ground and killed all the cows in
>>>>the field, but this is undetectable by humans and the cause
>>>>of death is unlikely to be immediately obvious.
>>>
>>>To the people investigating who were all wearing green wellies?
>>>
>>>But seriously, couldn't it be more likely the case that there was a
>>>single isolated flashover caused by a large bird colliding with an
>>>insulator?
>>
>>A flashover could case the same thing but you can quite easily get a
>>resistive continuous fault (an insulator failing and the overhead line
>>dropping and touching a stone wall or a tree) rather than directly
>>touching the ground - that means the current can continuously flow
>>through the ground
>
>I thought a fault was detected soon enough that a dropped cable was
>dead before it hit the ground.
>
>> as it closely resembles true load and not a fault.
>
>Well a fallen conductor should be obvious to the green wellied ones.
>
>>The voltage effectively drops from the voltage at the fault location
>>to zero at the earth point. Small steps taken by a human can mean no
>>shock, large steps (or space between points of contact) by a farm
>>animal can mean a big shock and death.
>
>Could also be that Bovine quadrupeds don't know, and get few clues as
>to "which way to turn" to minimise their electric shocks.
>

Educashun, educashun, educashun

-- 
geoff

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 20:31:45 GMT, "mick" 
wrote:


>if im in a metal bath ,which is earthed, full of water, and i drop an 
>electrical appliance into the water (not onto me), would i be electrocuted, 


Yes. Water doesn't conduct (worth a damn), but you do.  For almost all
reasonable configurations of you / bathtub / electric thing, then most
of the current is going through you. 

Bath salts however will change the conductivity of the water and may be
enough to save you !

mick wrote:


> im puzzled and would like theory, dont want to do practical :)
> 
> if im in a metal bath ,which is earthed, full of water, and i drop an 
> electrical appliance into the water (not onto me), would i be electrocuted, 
> or would the electricitcy immeditely go to earth leaving me unscathed, as i 
> would assume there would be no potential difference between me and the water 
> . unless the electricity had to go through me to get to the water.
> 
> i know that if touched a live wire and it eathed through me i would be 
> electrocuted due to potential diff,
> 
> alternatively if i stand on a 10,000 volt live wire which lies  in a muddly 
> puddle , would i be ok as surely the electricity would again flow to the 
> earth mass and not through me,
> 
> promise im not planning on trying any  on SWMBO.
> 
> honest 
> 
> 

You all salty, conduct better than bathwater, especially if touching a 
tap ...

"Colin Wilson"  wrote in message
news:MPG.1d7c42fffe0efc3a98b39b@news.individual.net


> I know of a horse that died in similar circumstances. Can't go into any 
> more detail as there may be legal action still pending.


I trust we shall all be enlightened when the legalities are concluded
and/or you get out of gaol?

(Bookmarked this thread in case I miss it.)

Presumably when there is a change in the weather and almost every
species of bird one commonly encounters in your region are sitting on
bare wires carrying several volts more than is required to BBQ them, the
preferred course of the electricity is a straight line?

I walked through the flood at Abergele several years ago. The tranformer
-right on the junction down which the sea poured every high tide; was
still giving off quite a belt (Kinmel Bay -it's still there) where I was
walking, until they were able to disconnect it several hours after the
first high water.

I was wearing leather boots (and soaking wet clothing) and was getting
tingling sensations, as was a fireman I was accompanying.

This was in knee to thigh deep water, dirty sea water. The tingling felt
like I was walking through cress or some such succulent pond weed. Not
at all unpleasant.

Perhaps the birds are having a foot-bath/massage?


-- 
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

"Derek ^"  wrote in message
news:ug84h1li382jo5a7qhfocvl00e2j80c1j2@4ax.com


> Just remember, stand on *one foot* in thunderstorms.
 
> On tiptoe.


Isn't there some correlation with the place a coroner finds
electrocution marks on the neck or shoulders of someone struck whilst
standing under a tree and the height at which the trunk is dry for most
of it's circumfrence?



-- 
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

> I trust we shall all be enlightened when the legalities are concluded
> and/or you get out of gaol?


I don't think i'm likely to hear the outcome of any legalities, but 
believe the problem was due to the consumers' installation - the owner 
of the horse felt differently of course, as they see anything to do with 
electricity being the electricity companies' fault.

-- 
Please add the word "newsgroup" in the subject line of personal emails
**** My email address includes "ngspamtrap" and "@btinternet.com" ****

In article ,
	"Michael Mcneil"  writes:

>Isn't there some correlation with the place a coroner finds
>electrocution marks on the neck or shoulders of someone struck whilst
>standing under a tree and the height at which the trunk is dry for most
>of it's circumfrence?


Lightening does strange things. Victims usually have burn marks
around all metallic objects, such as umbrellas, brief case handles,
metal jewelry, metal buttons/studs in cloths. Oh, and you might
want to check what your fly zip/buttons are made of before going
out in a thunderstorm...

-- 
Andrew Gabriel

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:01:48 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Mcneil"
 wrote:


>"Derek ^"  wrote in message
>news:ug84h1li382jo5a7qhfocvl00e2j80c1j2@4ax.com
>
>> Just remember, stand on *one foot* in thunderstorms.
> 
>> On tiptoe.
>
>Isn't there some correlation with the place a coroner finds
>electrocution marks on the neck or shoulders of someone struck whilst
>standing under a tree and the height at which the trunk is dry for most
>of it's circumfrence?


Haven't heard that. I have heard that if lightening strikes a sappy
tree the tree explodes. Just to add another level of piquancy to the
experience.

DG

"mick"  wrote in message 
news:RapQe.30826$5m3.1481@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> im puzzled and would like theory, dont want to do practical :)
>
> if im in a metal bath ,which is earthed, full of water, and i drop an 
> electrical appliance into the water (not onto me), would i be 
> electrocuted, or would the electricitcy immeditely go to earth leaving me 
> unscathed, as i would assume there would be no potential difference 
> between me and the water . unless the electricity had to go through me to 
> get to the water.


You would be safe(ish) in a plastic bath as long as you don't stick anything 
in the appliance.

A metal bath is probably more dangerous as it gives an earth path that you 
are in contact with so some current will flow through your body.
Your body is probably a better conductor than the water unless you have a 
lot of bath salts in the water.

(Who said earths are safe?)

"Ian Stirling"  wrote in message 
news:43124e4a$0$1292$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...


> I'd go so far as to say that for a small device dropped in next to your
> feet, in a non-earthed bath, the risk of death due to immediate cardiac
> failure is near zero.


Having had a "shock" from a bayonet light fitting dropped into a tropical 
aquarium I would have to agree.
I say "shock" as it was really just a tingle that got worse the closer you 
got to the socket.

As I was 10 at the time I didn't really think about turning the power off 
until I had tried to pick it up.

Needless to say I decided that bayonet fittings and aquaria don't mix.

"Derek ^"  wrote in message
news:5s56h1h9ltbe63kp8e4eauuoqkp1q96ihr@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:01:48 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Mcneil"
>  wrote:
>
> >"Derek ^"  wrote in message
> >news:ug84h1li382jo5a7qhfocvl00e2j80c1j2@4ax.com
> >
> >> Just remember, stand on *one foot* in thunderstorms.
> >
> >> On tiptoe.
> >
> >Isn't there some correlation with the place a coroner finds
> >electrocution marks on the neck or shoulders of someone struck whilst
> >standing under a tree and the height at which the trunk is dry for most
> >of it's circumfrence?
>
> Haven't heard that. I have heard that if lightening strikes a sappy
> tree the tree explodes. Just to add another level of piquancy to the
> experience.
>
> DG


I have seen the effects of some of the strikes on trees, in one case a tall
blue gum tree. The strike travelled down the trunk on the outside of the
tree, (stripping the bark in the process), to a nearby 6 ft pre-cast wall,
left the tree trunk at the wall height, jumped across to the top of this
wall, burst the concrete, exposing the reinforcing on the path to earth on
the way to earth; the bottom part of the tree corresponding to the height of
the wall had no damage. These lightning strikes take the path of least
resistance through the air or objects, if there is a person close to a tree
trunk for example, the current may divide between the path down to ground
via the tree trunk and the person's body. The current flow will divide in
ratio to the parallel resistances of the tree trunk and the person's body on
the path to earth. The strike also produces very strong magnetic fields,
currents can then be induced in metallic jewellery so causing overheating or
melting, similar to the transformer effect.
Jaymack

"mick"  wrote in message 
news:RapQe.30826$5m3.1481@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> im puzzled and would like theory, dont want to do practical :)
>
> if im in a metal bath ,which is earthed, full of water, and i drop an 
> electrical appliance into the water (not onto me), would i be 
> electrocuted, or would the electricitcy immeditely go to earth leaving me 
> unscathed, as i would assume there would be no potential difference 
> between me and the water . unless the electricity had to go through me to 
> get to the water.
>
> i know that if touched a live wire and it eathed through me i would be 
> electrocuted due to potential diff,


In Australia some electric kettles have bare elements, like a miniature 
underwater electric bar fire.  This seems to be quite safe if the jug is 
plastic, but not allowed in the UK .

but it might give you nickel poisoning.
http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/stories/1727.asp
which isn't half so bad as electrocution.

rusty

raden wrote:



> Educashun, educashun, educashun


The person that said that was described as  'A grin on a stick'  in the 
pub at lunchtime. I thought 'how very true'  ;-)

Dave

Michael Mcneil wrote:

<snip>

> 
> I walked through the flood at Abergele several years ago. The tranformer
> -right on the junction down which the sea poured every high tide; was
> still giving off quite a belt (Kinmel Bay -it's still there) where I was
> walking, until they were able to disconnect it several hours after the
> first high water.
> 
> I was wearing leather boots (and soaking wet clothing) and was getting
> tingling sensations, as was a fireman I was accompanying.
> 
> This was in knee to thigh deep water, dirty sea water. The tingling felt
> like I was walking through cress or some such succulent pond weed. Not
> at all unpleasant.
> 

<snip more>

The sea water is the clue.  It's a lot saltier than you are, and is a 
better conductor - so most of the current went around you.  Don't try 
that in fresh water!

Andy

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:54:02 +0000 (UTC), Dave
 wrote:


>raden wrote:
>
>
>> Educashun, educashun, educashun
>
>The person that said that was described as  'A grin on a stick'  in the 
>pub at lunchtime. I thought 'how very true'  ;-)
>
>Dave




Who did say it?  Was it our president?

Possibly with lessons from this guy?

http://www.tarmo.fi/arc/developers.mpeg
http://www.tarmo.fi/arc/monkeydance.mpeg

-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On 29 Aug,  
     "Rusty"  wrote:



> In Australia some electric kettles have bare elements, like a miniature 
> underwater electric bar fire.  This seems to be quite safe if the jug is 
> plastic, but not allowed in the UK .


Many years ago we had off peak heating at work. The storage device was a well
lagged (with asbestos) tank of water. It was heated by passing electricity
directly through the water in a three phase 'electrode boiler'. Perfectly
safe, as long as the water was contained within the (earthed) metal boiler.
If the heater didn't work properly due to high conductivity water, we just
added salt to it.

-- 
  B Thumbs
  Change lycos to yahoo to reply

"weekendwarrior"  wrote in message 
news:weekendwarrior.1ujrlq@news.diybanter.com...


> There was a program on SKY TV called mythbusters and they tested the
> theory of whether a electrical item thrown in a bath full of water
> would kill, like it does in the movies!


Mythbusters isn't very good.
It is a show where two guys prove that they don't have enough brain power to 
make things happen not that the things can't happen.


> Bear in mind that they are in the USA and so they were on 110v and trip
> switches. Even then the current was definately enough to Kill!, They
> tried it several times, with different bath salts etc. in the water!
>
> My advice- don't try it!


too latEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

"mick"  wrote in message 
news:RapQe.30826$5m3.1481@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> im puzzled and would like theory, dont want to do practical :)
>
> if im in a metal bath ,which is earthed, full of water, and i drop an 
> electrical appliance into the water (not onto me), would i be 
> electrocuted, or would the electricitcy immeditely go to earth leaving me 
> unscathed, as i would assume there would be no potential difference 
> between me and the water . unless the electricity had to go through me to 
> get to the water.
>
> i know that if touched a live wire and it eathed through me i would be 
> electrocuted due to potential diff,
>
> alternatively if i stand on a 10,000 volt live wire which lies  in a 
> muddly puddle , would i be ok as surely the electricity would again flow 
> to the earth mass and not through me,
>
> promise im not planning on trying any  on SWMBO.
>

I saw a programme years ago and they used a 4.5V battery one end to metal 
bath, other end to loose wire dipped in bath and measured the potential 
around the bath with and without someone in the bath. Basically when someone 
was lying in the bath, wire at head end of bath, his shoulders were at 
around 4V and feet at 0V. Therefore for 230V this would probably be fatal. 
All due to the body being a better conductor than the water.

wrote in message news:4DA23DBFC1%brian13434@lycos.co.uk...

> On 29 Aug,
>     "Rusty"  wrote:
>
>
>> In Australia some electric kettles have bare elements, like a miniature
>> underwater electric bar fire.  This seems to be quite safe if the jug is
>> plastic, but not allowed in the UK .
>
> Many years ago we had off peak heating at work. The storage device was a 
> well
> lagged (with asbestos) tank of water. It was heated by passing electricity
> directly through the water in a three phase 'electrode boiler'. Perfectly
> safe, as long as the water was contained within the (earthed) metal 
> boiler.
> If the heater didn't work properly due to high conductivity water, we just
> added salt to it.


And sausages can be cooked by inserting electrodes at both ends and passing 
a suitable current.  Was is on Jeremy Clarkson's TV show a few years ago.

weekendwarrior  wrote:

> 
> Rusty Wrote: 
>> "mick" mickmontford@blueyonder.co.uk wrote in message
>> news:RapQe.30826$5m3.1481@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...-
>> im puzzled and would like theory, dont want to do practical :)
>> 
>> if im in a metal bath ,which is earthed, full of water, and i drop an
>> electrical appliance into the water (not onto me), would i be
>> electrocuted, or would the electricitcy immeditely go to earth leaving
>> me

> There was a program on SKY TV called mythbusters and they tested the
> theory of whether a electrical item thrown in a bath full of water
> would kill, like it does in the movies!
> 
> Bear in mind that they are in the USA and so they were on 110v and trip
> switches. Even then the current was definately enough to Kill!, They
> tried it several times, with different bath salts etc. in the water!
> 


The current may be high enough to kill.
But can you get your body close enough to where that current is flowing through
the water to make a difference?
Sigh.
It would have to be last week that I threw out a broken heater.

Ian Stirling explained on 29/08/2005 :

> It depends.
> If your house has a RCD, and the appliance is earthed, or the bath is earthed
> and has metalwork exposed to water, then the answer is that you can throw
> electrical appliances into it without worry. (more or less).


....and most RCD's provide less than adequate protection, especially the 
single RCD's used in the DB's for whole home protection. It is 
generally accepted that it needs less than 10mA to electrocute someone, 
whereas these only trip at >30mA.

-- 

Regards,
        Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.org

Rusty Wrote: 

> "mick" mickmontford@blueyonder.co.uk wrote in message
> news:RapQe.30826$5m3.1481@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...-
> im puzzled and would like theory, dont want to do practical :)
> 
> if im in a metal bath ,which is earthed, full of water, and i drop an
> electrical appliance into the water (not onto me), would i be
> electrocuted, or would the electricitcy immeditely go to earth leaving
> me
> unscathed, as i would assume there would be no potential difference
> between me and the water . unless the electricity had to go through me
> to
> get to the water.
> 
> i know that if touched a live wire and it eathed through me i would
> be
> electrocuted due to potential diff,-
> 
> In Australia some electric kettles have bare elements, like a
> miniature
> underwater electric bar fire.  This seems to be quite safe if the jug
> is
> plastic, but not allowed in the UK .
> 
> but it might give you nickel poisoning.
> http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/stories/1727.asp
> which isn't half so bad as electrocution.
> 
> rusty


There was a program on SKY TV called mythbusters and they tested the
theory of whether a electrical item thrown in a bath full of water
would kill, like it does in the movies!

Bear in mind that they are in the USA and so they were on 110v and trip
switches. Even then the current was definately enough to Kill!, They
tried it several times, with different bath salts etc. in the water!

My advice- don't try it!


-- 
weekendwarrior

"Harry Bloomfield"  wrote in message 
news:mn.f5857d584485701e.8412@tiscali.co.uk...

> Ian Stirling explained on 29/08/2005 :
>> It depends.
>> If your house has a RCD, and the appliance is earthed, or the bath is 
>> earthed
>> and has metalwork exposed to water, then the answer is that you can throw
>> electrical appliances into it without worry. (more or less).
>
> ...and most RCD's provide less than adequate protection, especially the 
> single RCD's used in the DB's for whole home protection. It is generally 
> accepted that it needs less than 10mA to electrocute someone, whereas 
> these only trip at >30mA.
>
> -- 
>
> Regards,
>        Harry (M1BYT) (L)



I think this is age related.   FWIW, a 70 year old needs a lot less current 
than a 20 year old for a 50% kill probability (according to some 
measurements, no idea how they got them).

rusty

In article <df4ll8$7dh$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>,
	"Rusty"  writes:

>
>"Harry Bloomfield"  wrote in message 
>news:mn.f5857d584485701e.8412@tiscali.co.uk...
>>
>> ...and most RCD's provide less than adequate protection, especially the 
>> single RCD's used in the DB's for whole home protection. It is generally 
>> accepted that it needs less than 10mA to electrocute someone, whereas 
>> these only trip at >30mA.
>
>I think this is age related.   FWIW, a 70 year old needs a lot less current 
>than a 20 year old for a 50% kill probability (according to some 
>measurements, no idea how they got them).


It's duration related too.
However, the comments you quote are probably wrong (they
are too imprecise to be sure what the poster meant to say).

-- 
Andrew Gabriel

"Andrew Gabriel"  wrote in message 
news:43160f6c$0$38037$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk...

> In article <df4ll8$7dh$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> "Rusty"  writes:
>>
>>"Harry Bloomfield"  wrote in message
>>news:mn.f5857d584485701e.8412@tiscali.co.uk...
>>>
>>> ...and most RCD's provide less than adequate protection, especially the
>>> single RCD's used in the DB's for whole home protection. It is generally
>>> accepted that it needs less than 10mA to electrocute someone, whereas
>>> these only trip at >30mA.
>>
>>I think this is age related.   FWIW, a 70 year old needs a lot less 
>>current
>>than a 20 year old for a 50% kill probability (according to some
>>measurements, no idea how they got them).
>
> It's duration related too.
> However, the comments you quote are probably wrong (they
> are too imprecise to be sure what the poster meant to say).
>



I saw a graph in a safey magazine about 15 years ago which related (as you 
say) current, time, and age.   I think 30 mA a/c for 15 mins at the worst 
attachment points, ie between one hand and the opposite foot so the current 
goes throught the heart, could just finish off a feeble seniour 
citizenpensioner but not a healthy young person.   So that's a reasonable 
place to fix the leakage trip level.  I don't have a copy of the mag. but 
its probably on the web somewhere by now.

there's also the problem of involuntary twitches which might make you drop a 
power tool and cause mechanical injury.


rusty

"Rusty"  wrote:



>I saw a graph in a safey magazine about 15 years ago which related (as you 
>say) current, time, and age.   I think 30 mA a/c for 15 mins at the worst 
>attachment points, ie between one hand and the opposite foot so the current 
>goes throught the heart, could just finish off a feeble seniour 
>citizenpensioner but not a healthy young person.   So that's a reasonable 
>place to fix the leakage trip level.  I don't have a copy of the mag. but 
>its probably on the web somewhere by now.
>
>there's also the problem of involuntary twitches which might make you drop a 
>power tool and cause mechanical injury.


30mA for 15 MINUTES? Are you sure about that? 


--

"Matt"  wrote in message 
news:fbjgh11424tu5bdn4lo2r13rc329d13cst@4ax.com...

> "Rusty"  wrote:
>
>
>>I saw a graph in a safey magazine about 15 years ago which related (as you
>>say) current, time, and age.   I think 30 mA a/c for 15 mins at the worst
>>attachment points, ie between one hand and the opposite foot so the 
>>current
>>goes throught the heart, could just finish off a feeble seniour
>>citizenpensioner but not a healthy young person.   So that's a reasonable
>>place to fix the leakage trip level.  I don't have a copy of the mag. but
>>its probably on the web somewhere by now.
>>
>>there's also the problem of involuntary twitches which might make you drop 
>>a
>>power tool and cause mechanical injury.
>
> 30mA for 15 MINUTES? Are you sure about that?


Not really, this is going back a long way.   Have a look at
http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/circulationaha;93/4/837
for advice on connecting patients to Electrocardiographs, which is a bit out 
my direct experience (as yet).  They are talk of tests on dogs etc. and 
current of 10 microamps.


rusty