Last Saturday, me and my partner travelled on the last service from
Kings Cross Thameslink to St. Albans (01.08). We needed two extensions
from Zone 6 to St Albans, but the ticket desk was obviously closed and
the automatic ticket machines don't do extensions (or Gold Card
discounts). No permit to travel machine either (that I could see).

So we boarded the train and wondered how we would get through the
barriers. As it turned out, they were all open anyway!

At no point did we have the opportunity to get a ticket, so we
travelled for free (well, part of the way at least). I'm guessing that
everyone else knows that the barriers are left open after a certain
time, so surely half (or more) of the people on the train would quite
happily fare dodge at this time of night?

Jonathan

In article ,
jonmorris  writes

>Last Saturday, me and my partner travelled on the last service from
>Kings Cross Thameslink to St. Albans (01.08). We needed two extensions
>from Zone 6 to St Albans, but the ticket desk was obviously closed and
>the automatic ticket machines don't do extensions (or Gold Card
>discounts). No permit to travel machine either (that I could see).
>
>So we boarded the train and wondered how we would get through the
>barriers. As it turned out, they were all open anyway!
>
>At no point did we have the opportunity to get a ticket, so we
>travelled for free (well, part of the way at least). I'm guessing that
>everyone else knows that the barriers are left open after a certain
>time, so surely half (or more) of the people on the train would quite
>happily fare dodge at this time of night?
>
>Jonathan
>

Also quite common when replacement busses in operation
this was when Chiltern were running a coach from Birmingham all the way
to Bicester North
Ticket office at Moor Street was closed
many persons asked where do I buy a ticket but staff marshalling the
busses were uninterested so presumably everyone got a free ride
I was only making my way back to Dorridge, but I couldn't also buy a
ticket into Birmingham from Dorridge, so went free both ways.
Staff aware I was travelling all the way even redirected me from the bus
I was on which was calling at all stations to the faster coach service
through from Bicester 
It would seem no rail service so no one needs a ticket, replacement road
service is free.

-- 
Alan

There was a woman on the Brighton to Watford train yesterday wanting to
buy a ticket from Waterloo to Kensington. She had tried to get a ticket
at Waterloo but Kensington wasn't a destination option. The conductor
gave up trying to find a price in his book so she got a free journey
although she had somehow managed to buy a ticket in the morning for £3
something which sounded the wrong fare anyway.
I assume she would have had to have bought a Waterloo to Clapham then
Clapham to Kensington.
I have always assumed, within reason, you could buy a ticket to any
destination.

Kevin

On 31 Aug 2005 03:07:44 -0700, kajr@mwfree.net wrote:


>There was a woman on the Brighton to Watford train yesterday wanting to
>buy a ticket from Waterloo to Kensington. She had tried to get a ticket
>at Waterloo but Kensington wasn't a destination option. The conductor
>gave up trying to find a price in his book so she got a free journey
>although she had somehow managed to buy a ticket in the morning for =A33
>something which sounded the wrong fare anyway.


gbp3.30 SDS, gbp5.30 FDS, according to QJump.


>I have always assumed, within reason, you could buy a ticket to any
>destination.


You can, though the London terminals tend to be the ones that cause
exceptions - e.g. I doubt there is, other than via LUL or the odd
routeings that turn up due to the X5 coach[1], a through fare from
Paddington to Milton Keynes Central.

[1] These are to MILTON K BUS OXF or OXFORD BUS MK so don't really
count.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On 31 Aug 2005 03:07:44 -0700, kajr@mwfree.net wrote:


>I have always assumed, within reason, you could buy a ticket to any
>destination.


You can, with some exceptions (eg starting by crossing London on the
Underground, I don't think you can get a though /rail/ ticket from
Portsmouth Harbour to Island Line stations, etc)  but machines don't
always sell them. I was amazed I couldn't buy a ticket to Sutton at
Waterloo without joining a long queue. When I got to the window I
asked if there are any machines which could cope with such exotic
destinations, but the chap behind the the desk seemed equally amazed
that anyone would change trains en route to go to a non-SWT
destination.

-- 
Arthur Figgis                Surrey, UK

Neil Williams wrote:


> You can, though the London terminals tend to be the ones that cause
> exceptions - e.g. I doubt there is, other than via LUL or the odd
> routeings that turn up due to the X5 coach[1], a through fare from
> Paddington to Milton Keynes Central.


And why should there be? There is no sensible route _via NR only_ from
Paddington to Milton Keynes. Passengers wishing to travel between
Paddington and Milton Keynes should use the services from Euston, and
transfer on the Underground, for which a "London Z1 to Milton Keynes"
ticket will suffice.

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 00:05:21 +0100, Stevie D
 wrote:


>And why should there be? There is no sensible route _via NR only_ from
>Paddington to Milton Keynes.


Agreed - that was my point!


> Passengers wishing to travel between
>Paddington and Milton Keynes should use the services from Euston, and
>transfer on the Underground, for which a "London Z1 to Milton Keynes"
>ticket will suffice.


Does such a thing exist in that direction?  I always thought it
didn't.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 00:05:21 +0100, Stevie D
 wrote:


>Passengers wishing to travel between
>Paddington and Milton Keynes should use the services from Euston, and
>transfer on the Underground, for which a "London Z1 to Milton Keynes"
>ticket will suffice.


Does such a ticket exist? I've never found anyone able to sell me a
ticket /from/ Zone1, only to it.
-- 
Arthur Figgis                Surrey, UK

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 06:23:50 GMT, wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
Williams) wrote:

>On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 00:05:21 +0100, Stevie D
> wrote:
>
>>And why should there be? There is no sensible route _via NR only_ from
>>Paddington to Milton Keynes.
>
>Agreed - that was my point!


There was some discussion here ages ago whether <anywhere> -> Waterloo
-> Charing Cross could ever be valid on a London Terminals ticket,
although definitely a sensible route.  The barriers accept it, and
there is no specific fare from my station to Charing Cross.


>> Passengers wishing to travel between
>>Paddington and Milton Keynes should use the services from Euston, and
>>transfer on the Underground, for which a "London Z1 to Milton Keynes"
>>ticket will suffice.
>
>Does such a thing exist in that direction?  I always thought it
>didn't.


I've looked in the last fares manual that I had from the days when I
was involved in these things and I can't find anything, although I'm
*sure* I remember that they are available, but from zone 1 only...
They may be London area only (as available from LU ticket machines).

Richard.

Arthur Figgis wrote:

> You can, with some exceptions (eg starting by crossing London on the
> Underground, I don't think you can get a though /rail/ ticket from
> Portsmouth Harbour to Island Line stations, etc)


Not being able to buy a ticket from a NR station that starts on the 
Underground seems a bit silly. A couple of months ago I had a Rail 
Warrant for travel from London to Stansted Airport including the 
underground - the intention was to exchange it at Victoria (as I was 
arriving in London by coach; there are no trains as early as I needed to 
travel on a Sunday) and go from there. Couldn't issue a ticket from 
Victoria, so I ended up with a ticket from Battersea Park instead!

You can buy a ticket from Portsmouth Harbour to Island Line stations, 
although it is issued by WightLink and not at the train station. I tried 
to buy the ticket from Canterbury (as I had been sold a return to 
Portsmouth previously) on the day, but the guy in the ticket office told 
me that he can't issue tickets that don't start in Canterbury.

-- 
Jonathan Stott
Canterbury Weather: http://www.canterburyweather.co.uk/
Reverse my e-mail address to reply by e-mail

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 23:26:18 +0100, Jonathan Stott 
wrote:


>but the guy in the ticket office told 
>me that he can't issue tickets that don't start in Canterbury.


ITYM "can't be bothered to"...

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Richard wrote:


> There was some discussion here ages ago whether <anywhere> -> Waterloo
> -> Charing Cross could ever be valid on a London Terminals ticket,
> although definitely a sensible route.


Whether it could or not depends on the maps defined in the routeing
guide. Currently, looking at most maps, Charing Cross isn't allowed.

BUT - map SC, which allows routes from West Sussex via Mitcham or
Streatham, permits Clapham Junction > Waterloo > Charing Cross. LB
does likewise.

So it looks like only passengers travelling from the SouthCentral
region can go to Charing Cross via CJ and Waterloo - those coming from
the SouthWest can't. Which, when you think about, makes a sort of
sense - the SouthCentral region runs trains through to Charing Cross
anyway.

(BTW, has anyone seen map SB? Far too complex!)


> The barriers accept it, and


Doesn't mean they have been programmed correctly!


> there is no specific fare from my station to Charing Cross.


That means nothing. There is no fare from Croydon to Paddington, but
that doesn't mean I can use an ordinary "Croydon to London Terminals"
ticket to Paddington.

A "... to London Terminals" ticket entitles you to travel to a limited
number of those terminals, depending on where you are starting from.
If you need to travel to any of the other terminals, buy a ticket to
"London Z1".

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:33:38 +0100, Stevie D
 wrote:

>> there is no specific fare from my station to Charing Cross.
>
>That means nothing. There is no fare from Croydon to Paddington, but
>that doesn't mean I can use an ordinary "Croydon to London Terminals"
>ticket to Paddington.
>
>A "... to London Terminals" ticket entitles you to travel to a limited
>number of those terminals, depending on where you are starting from.
>If you need to travel to any of the other terminals, buy a ticket to
>"London Z1".


I wasn't clear enough... From Surbiton, or anywhere on SWT for that
matter, it seems reasonable to want to go to Charing Cross, unlike
your Croydon to Paddington example.  As it's so reasonable, I'd expect
there to be fare for it, and there isn't.  The "extra" journey is not
on the underground (or the inner bit of Thameslink), so I wouldn't
think that a ticket to zone 1 were appropriate.  My fares manual
doesn't help much.

Richard.

Jonathan Stott wrote:

> Arthur Figgis wrote:
> > You can, with some exceptions (eg starting by crossing London on the
> > Underground, I don't think you can get a though /rail/ ticket from
> > Portsmouth Harbour to Island Line stations, etc)
>
> Not being able to buy a ticket from a NR station that starts on the
> Underground seems a bit silly. A couple of months ago I had a Rail
> Warrant for travel from London to Stansted Airport including the
> underground - the intention was to exchange it at Victoria (as I was
> arriving in London by coach; there are no trains as early as I needed to
> travel on a Sunday) and go from there. Couldn't issue a ticket from
> Victoria, so I ended up with a ticket from Battersea Park instead!



I haven't tried this recently, but certainly a few years ago you could
buy tickets to many mainline destinations from the Underground.  I
think this option has now been withdrawn, but the price was the same as
a single Underground ticket plus the fare from the terminus to where
you were going so, apart from the double queuing, nothing is lost.

But, as I've mentioned before, if you bought a ticket from the mainline
station (eg Kings Cross) to a mainline destination the other side of
London (eg Sevenoaks) they were perfectly able to sell it to you and
the Underground part was free, because it was treated as a cross-London
journey.

I wonder if someone can confirm if this is still the case?  I have
definitely done it in the past.

On 3 Sep 2005 09:25:49 -0700, "MIG" 
wrote:


>But, as I've mentioned before, if you bought a ticket from the mainline
>station (eg Kings Cross) to a mainline destination the other side of
>London (eg Sevenoaks) they were perfectly able to sell it to you and
>the Underground part was free, because it was treated as a cross-London
>journey.
>I wonder if someone can confirm if this is still the case?  I have
>definitely done it in the past.


I've just had a look at Qjump:

Reading > London gives me journeys to Paddington:
CDR (any permitted) 12
Reading > London Paddington (specified explicitly)
CDR (any permitted) 12
Reading > London Kings Cross gives me journes including Underground to
KX
CDR (any permitted) 16 - but if I go to the list all fares page, it
shows the 12 fares!

So presumably 12 is CDR to London Terminals, and 16 is for U1.

Giong the other way, I entered London Kings Cross to Reading.
It gave me journeys from Kings Cross, without forcing me to use
Paddington or saying journey not available or anything like that. The
itinerary included  a 'Tube' (or 'sub-surface' to keep you all happy)
connection and the CDR fare offered was 16. Again, the list all fares
page just shows 'London' fares with a 12 CDR.

So Qjump is willing to sell me a KX to Reading ticket - perjhaps it is
willing to attempt to issue a U1 to Reading ticket.

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 16:35:59 GMT, 1577+2260 <someone@somewhere.x>
wrote:


>On 3 Sep 2005 09:25:49 -0700, "MIG" 
>wrote:
>
>Reading > London gives me journeys to Paddington:
>CDR (any permitted) 12
>Reading > London Paddington (specified explicitly)
>CDR (any permitted) 12
>Reading > London Kings Cross gives me journes including Underground to
>KX
>CDR (any permitted) 16 - but if I go to the list all fares page, it
>shows the 12 fares!
>
>So presumably 12 is CDR to London Terminals, and 16 is for U1.


However, it's worth noting that a CDR to Finsbury Park (including free
Tube journey to KX) is only 14.70...

Richard wrote:

> 
> From Surbiton, or anywhere on SWT for that
> matter, it seems reasonable to want to go to Charing Cross.


Maybe the best solution is train to Waterloo and then walk across
Hungerford Bridge? It would probably be about as fast as walking to
Waterloo East and waiting for a connection.

-- 
John Ray, London UK.

no content

On 3 Sep 2005 09:25:49 -0700, "MIG" 
wrote:


>But, as I've mentioned before, if you bought a ticket from the mainline
>station (eg Kings Cross) to a mainline destination the other side of
>London (eg Sevenoaks) they were perfectly able to sell it to you and
>the Underground part was free, because it was treated as a cross-London
>journey.
>
>I wonder if someone can confirm if this is still the case?  I have
>definitely done it in the past.


I've been told that it isn't possible to buy a (say) King's Cross -
Wallington ticket by so many different ticket offices, including ones
which will happily sell things like PlusBus, that I suspect it really
isn't possible.

It would be useful to me when I'm using Hull Trains. I can't get a
cheap route Hull Trains through return fare from Wallington to Hull.
So I buy a Wallington - KX single at any station I happen to be near,
and phone up HT to get a separate KX - Hull route Hull Trains advance
purchase return, which is cheaper than an (any permitted) though
ticket. 

I can buy an advance-dated KXTL - Wallington ticket, at any station,
to use on the way back, but the KX-KXTL connection is tight and it
would nice to be able to have a (slightly more expensive) KX - (via
Underground) - Wallington ticket in case I miss the Thameslink
connection.  But I'd have to buy a separate underground ticket on the
spot, which is a bit inconvenient.  With the spread of advance
purchase cheap tickets, I know other people have run into this. 
-- 
Arthur Figgis                Surrey, UK

Try purchasing from Finsbury Park to Wallington.

By the way it is right to say there isn't a King's Cross to Wallington
ticket. It would be London Terminals to Wallington, but there would be
no valid route out of King's Cross for that.

It may be worth paying the extra £1, at least it saves you £1
compared to a £2 tube single.

FINSBURY PARK to WALLINGTON
Ticket Type   Route/Company   Price
STANDARD DAY SINGLE  ANY PERMITTED  4.90 GBP
FIRST DAY SINGLE  ANY PERMITTED  7.30 GBP

KINGS CROSS THAMESLINK to WALLINGTON
Ticket Type   Route/Company   Price
STANDARD DAY SINGLE  NOT UNDERGROUND  3.90 GBP
STANDARD DAY SINGLE  ANY PERMITTED  3.90 GBP

(I am unsure what the difference of the 'Not Underground' and 'Any
permitted' tickets that are the same price is!)

On 3 Sep 2005 09:25:49 -0700, "MIG" 
wrote:


>I wonder if someone can confirm if this is still the case?  I have
>definitely done it in the past.


Yes, cross-London tickets do still include LUL.  Annoyingly, for
example when doing Kings Cross-Euston (which you're quicker off
walking than using LUL), they don't include buses.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Yorkie wrote:

> Try purchasing from Finsbury Park to Wallington.
>
> By the way it is right to say there isn't a King's Cross to Wallington
> ticket. It would be London Terminals to Wallington, but there would be
> no valid route out of King's Cross for that.
>
> It may be worth paying the extra £1, at least it saves you £1
> compared to a £2 tube single.
>
> FINSBURY PARK to WALLINGTON
> Ticket Type   Route/Company   Price
> STANDARD DAY SINGLE  ANY PERMITTED  4.90 GBP
> FIRST DAY SINGLE  ANY PERMITTED  7.30 GBP
>
> KINGS CROSS THAMESLINK to WALLINGTON
> Ticket Type   Route/Company   Price
> STANDARD DAY SINGLE  NOT UNDERGROUND  3.90 GBP
> STANDARD DAY SINGLE  ANY PERMITTED  3.90 GBP
>
> (I am unsure what the difference of the 'Not Underground' and 'Any
> permitted' tickets that are the same price is!)



A few years ago I definitely bought a single ticket from the main
travel centre at Kings Cross to somewhere in South London, I think
Lewisham, and the price was definitely the same as it would have been
from Cannon Street, ie the cross-London bit was free. It went through
the Underground gates at the appropriate places (Thameslink not
involved at any stage).

If this is no longer possible, it would mean that there had been a
major shakeup of cross-London ticketing in the last few years which I
wasn't generally aware of.

Arthur Figgis wrote:


> I've been told that it isn't possible to buy a (say) King's Cross -
> Wallington ticket by so many different ticket offices, including ones
> which will happily sell things like PlusBus, that I suspect it really
> isn't possible.


Qjump gives:
London - Wallington SDS 3.90
London Kings Cross - Wallington SDS 5.90

But it won't tell you exactly what ticket it is selling you.
 

> It would be useful to me when I'm using Hull Trains. I can't get a
> cheap route Hull Trains through return fare from Wallington to Hull.
> So I buy a Wallington - KX single at any station I happen to be near,
> and phone up HT to get a separate KX - Hull route Hull Trains advance
> purchase return, which is cheaper than an (any permitted) though
> ticket. 


I have the same issues trying to get to Croydon. I like to buy a route
HT ticket even when it's a Saver because I think they are worth
supporting and ensuring that my fare goes to them and is not split up
to other operators. But it is frustrating that I can't get a through
ticket.

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 12:17:41 +0100, Stevie D   
wrote:


> Arthur Figgis wrote:
>
>> I've been told that it isn't possible to buy a (say) King's Cross -
>> Wallington ticket by so many different ticket offices, including ones
>> which will happily sell things like PlusBus, that I suspect it really
>> isn't possible.
>
> Qjump gives:
> London - Wallington SDS 3.90
> London Kings Cross - Wallington SDS 5.90
>
> But it won't tell you exactly what ticket it is selling you.
>
>> It would be useful to me when I'm using Hull Trains. I can't get a
>> cheap route Hull Trains through return fare from Wallington to Hull.
>> So I buy a Wallington - KX single at any station I happen to be near,
>> and phone up HT to get a separate KX - Hull route Hull Trains advance
>> purchase return, which is cheaper than an (any permitted) though
>> ticket.
>
> I have the same issues trying to get to Croydon. I like to buy a route
> HT ticket even when it's a Saver because I think they are worth
> supporting and ensuring that my fare goes to them and is not split up
> to other operators. But it is frustrating that I can't get a through
> ticket.


Think this must be down to Hull Trains themselves. Its possible to get  
through Virgin Value tickets to all Southern Stations.

Paul



-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Sun, 4 Sep 2005, Stevie D wrote:


> Qjump gives:
[..]
> London Kings Cross - Wallington SDS 5.90
> 
> But it won't tell you exactly what ticket it is selling you.


FWIW, NRES comes up with the same answer (but again, it doesn't offer 
any extra detail about what that SDS ticket is); all of the KX 
connections which it showed, started with a leg marked "Tube*".

paul Hutchinson wrote:


> Think this must be down to Hull Trains themselves. Its possible to get  
> through Virgin Value tickets to all Southern Stations.


Yes, I know it is. I would think that in the early days of their
existence they would have been reluctant to go to the lengths of
making HT+Connections tickets available for all destinations south of
London. Now that they are becoming so popular, I would have thought it
time they gave the idea some consideration.

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________