Popped down to Porthmadog this week to see one of the steam tours that
Arriva are running this Summer.
Loco was a BR Standard 2-6-0.  I was looking at the Westinghouse brake
pump mounted under the cab and it got me wondering:
Did BR start changing over to air brakes before the end of steam or was
this example retrofitted under preservation?
Were Britain's railways all vacuum braked before BR?
When did BR make the decision to change over to air brakes?

Edward..

"Edward"  wrote in message
news:a31baba04d.eddien@freeuk.com...

> Did BR start changing over to air brakes before the end of steam or was
> this example retrofitted under preservation?
> Were Britain's railways all vacuum braked before BR?
> When did BR make the decision to change over to air brakes?


My understanding is that the decision to change was made in 1964.

Prior to 1923 quite a number of railway companies used Westinghouse brakes,
although the majority used vacuum.  After Grouping it was decided that
vacuum would be the standard for inter-company trains, but existing
air-braked trains continued to operate.  I think, although I am not sure,
that pre-existing air-braked trains continued to operate under BR.  I don't
know whether BR built or converted any steam locomotives to air braking.

Roger

All mainline certified steam locos which are air braked (including
76079, the loco working the Cambrian specials) had their air braking
equipment fitted in preservation. There are a few locos preserved which
were air-braked prior to preservation (e.g. the Terriers on the Isle of
Wight, Birch Grove on the Bluebell, some ex-GER locos) but none of
these are passed for the mainline and most usually work in vacuum brake
mode on their preserved lines (except on the Isle of Wight, where all
trains are air braked). As for BR fitting air brakes, I think there
were some 9F's fitted with air brakes to work iron ore trains in the
north east, but I don't know whether there were any others.

On 26 Aug 2005 15:13:32 -0700, "malc"  wrote:


>All mainline certified steam locos which are air braked (including
>76079, the loco working the Cambrian specials) had their air braking
>equipment fitted in preservation. There are a few locos preserved which
>were air-braked prior to preservation (e.g. the Terriers on the Isle of
>Wight, Birch Grove on the Bluebell, some ex-GER locos) but none of
>these are passed for the mainline and most usually work in vacuum brake
>mode on their preserved lines (except on the Isle of Wight, where all
>trains are air braked). As for BR fitting air brakes, I think there
>were some 9F's fitted with air brakes to work iron ore trains in the
>north east, but I don't know whether there were any others.


Erm...
The preserved N7 & B12 have working air brakes, needed too, as the
loco's don't have a steam brake!
(The N7's used on the Jazz, Chingford & Enfield Town services also
needed air brakes, as the Quint-Art coaches s used up 'till the lines
were electified were air-brake only. Some of the regular Enfield &
Wood St. locos didn't even have vacuum brakes!)
Birch Grove also needs it's air brake when running light.
Q?. Birch Grove is now fitted with twin-pipe connecting hoses, ( IE
Separate Train & Reservoir pipes,) which the current ex. BR standard.
Does anyone know why this has been done, it's certainlly not as it was
in BR days!

The (F's weren't fitted with air brakes as the the Tyne Dock - Consett
trains were vacuum braked, but, the Iron Ore wagons were fitted
air-operated hopper doors, so any of the steam loco's allocated to the
service had to have air-pumps. 

HTH, David C.

yyOn 26 Aug 2005 15:13:32 -0700, "malc" 
wrote:
<snip>

> As for BR fitting air brakes, I think there
>were some 9F's fitted with air brakes to work iron ore trains in the
>north east, but I don't know whether there were any others.


See Google for "Steam on Tyne Dock to Consett Iron Ore Trains". In one
of the more detailed postings ("27 of 39") Graeme Wall describes the
wagons as vacuum-braked with air-operated discharge equipment while
Geoff Bannister refers to a couple of Britannias trial-fitted for
other traffic elsewhere.
-- 
                                                             _______
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |\\   //|
 | Charles Ellson: charles@e11son.demon.co.uk        |      | \\ // |
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |  > <  |
                                                            | // \\ |
                                              Alba gu brath |//___\\|

"Charles Ellson"  wrote in message 
news:7iavg195vf32ddi759ees7ql1u5n4gek9a@4ax.com...

> yyOn 26 Aug 2005 15:13:32 -0700, "malc" 
> wrote:
> <snip>
>> As for BR fitting air brakes, I think there
>>were some 9F's fitted with air brakes to work iron ore trains in the
>>north east, but I don't know whether there were any others.
>
> See Google for "Steam on Tyne Dock to Consett Iron Ore Trains". In one
> of the more detailed postings ("27 of 39") Graeme Wall describes the
> wagons as vacuum-braked with air-operated discharge equipment while
> Geoff Bannister refers to a couple of Britannias trial-fitted for
> other traffic elsewhere.
> -- 
>                                                             _______
> +---------------------------------------------------+      |\\   //|
> | Charles Ellson: charles@e11son.demon.co.uk        |      | \\ // |
> +---------------------------------------------------+      |  > <  |
>                                                            | // \\ |
>                                              Alba gu brath |//___\\|

Weren't some Standard Class 5s fitted with air-brakes during BR days? Apart 
from the ex-GE section, did anywhere else retain air-brakes post Grouping?
Brian

David C wrote:


> Birch Grove is now fitted with twin-pipe connecting hoses, ( IE
> Separate Train & Reservoir pipes,) which the current ex. BR standard.
> Does anyone know why this has been done, it's certainlly not as it was
> in BR days!


Having the seperate Main Reservoir pipe makes the brake inexhaustible.
With the single pipe system it is possible, by rapidly repeated
applcations, to empty the reservoirs on the vehicles.  The reservoirs
are recharged from the Brake Pipe when in the release condition
(72.5psi - 70 originally), but repeated applications give insufficient
time for recharging to take place. 'Fade' can also occur during
prolonged applications, as the reservoir pressure (which obviously can
be no greater than the maximum Train Pipe pressure) reduces with use
and leakage.

With twin pipe operation there is a dual safety margin - the main
reservoir on the loco is at 118 - 140psi, supplying the MRP and vehicle
reservoirs at 100psi, which in turn is higher than the maximum required
brake cylinder pressure.  Because it is seperate from the 'signalling'
function of the Brake Pipe (operating the distributors according to
pressure variation) the MRP can supply a constant and inexhaustible
feed.


>
> The (F's weren't fitted with air brakes as the the Tyne Dock - Consett
> trains were vacuum braked, but, the Iron Ore wagons were fitted
> air-operated hopper doors, so any of the steam loco's allocated to the
> service had to have air-pumps.


One query about this:  Weren't the wagons in use before 9Fs came on the
scene?  I'm sure that they were worked by ex-NER 0-8-0s, but I'm not
clear about the door operation - many ex-NER locos were air-braked, but
I can't see a dual brake loco using vacuum for braking and air for door
operation (though if it were so it would be an elegant solution).

"David Hansen"  wrote

>
> Converting the "Southern Region" to 25kV may not be the best use of
> money, but it is certainly feasible.
>

Most of Southern's (i.e the former LB&SCR) suburban network used to be
electrified at 6.6kV AC OHLE. If it was possible between 1909 and 1929 it
ought to be possible now, even at the current standard voltage.

Peter

On 27 Aug 2005 09:00:03 -0700, "Chippy"  wrote:


>David C wrote:
>
>> Birch Grove is now fitted with twin-pipe connecting hoses, ( IE
>> Separate Train & Reservoir pipes,) which the current ex. BR standard.
>> Does anyone know why this has been done, it's certainlly not as it was
>> in BR days!
>
>Having the seperate Main Reservoir pipe makes the brake inexhaustible.
>With the single pipe system it is possible, by rapidly repeated
>applcations, to empty the reservoirs on the vehicles.  The reservoirs
>are recharged from the Brake Pipe when in the release condition
>(72.5psi - 70 originally), but repeated applications give insufficient
>time for recharging to take place. 'Fade' can also occur during
>prolonged applications, as the reservoir pressure (which obviously can
>be no greater than the maximum Train Pipe pressure) reduces with use
>and leakage.
>
>With twin pipe operation there is a dual safety margin - the main
>reservoir on the loco is at 118 - 140psi, supplying the MRP and vehicle
>reservoirs at 100psi, which in turn is higher than the maximum required
>brake cylinder pressure.  Because it is seperate from the 'signalling'
>function of the Brake Pipe (operating the distributors according to
>pressure variation) the MRP can supply a constant and inexhaustible
>feed.
>


Thanks for above explanation, allthough I did actually know why the
twin-pipe system is a "Good Thing" already!
Now try persauding the Yanks at EWS (that ordered single-piped wagons
from Thrall Europe), that it's a good idea!

ISTR that said Yanks are experimenting with electrically controlled
air-brakes, & (eventuallly) removing the train-pipe altogether.
Not unlike some of today's EMU's, perhaps?

But what I should have said was:-
Why fit Birch Grove with such a system when it is not NR approved & is
unlikely to meet a twin-piped air-braked train on any UK preserved
railway?

>>
>> The (F's weren't fitted with air brakes as the the Tyne Dock - Consett
>> trains were vacuum braked, but, the Iron Ore wagons were fitted
>> air-operated hopper doors, so any of the steam loco's allocated to the
>> service had to have air-pumps.
>
>One query about this:  Weren't the wagons in use before 9Fs came on the
>scene?  I'm sure that they were worked by ex-NER 0-8-0s, but I'm not
>clear about the door operation - many ex-NER locos were air-braked, but
>I can't see a dual brake loco using vacuum for braking and air for door
>operation (though if it were so it would be an elegant solution).


Before the 9F's, the TD trains used )1's, again vacuum-fitted with air
for the wagon doors.
The new fleet of wagons + the new dock & steelworks loading /
unloading infrastructre post-dated the ex-NER 0-8-0's.


DC

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:39:49 +0100, "BH Williams"
 wrote:


>
>"Charles Ellson"  wrote in message 
>news:7iavg195vf32ddi759ees7ql1u5n4gek9a@4ax.com...
>> yyOn 26 Aug 2005 15:13:32 -0700, "malc" 
>> wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> As for BR fitting air brakes, I think there
>>>were some 9F's fitted with air brakes to work iron ore trains in the
>>>north east, but I don't know whether there were any others.
>>
>> See Google for "Steam on Tyne Dock to Consett Iron Ore Trains". In one
>> of the more detailed postings ("27 of 39") Graeme Wall describes the
>> wagons as vacuum-braked with air-operated discharge equipment while
>> Geoff Bannister refers to a couple of Britannias trial-fitted for
>> other traffic elsewhere.
>> -- 

>Weren't some Standard Class 5s fitted with air-brakes during BR days? Apart 
>from the ex-GE section, did anywhere else retain air-brakes post Grouping?
>Brian 
>


As has been mentioned, the Isle-of-Wight lines were the only other,
exclusively air-braked, trains to survive into the BR era.

Some BR stds. were fitted with air-brakes when BR were undertaking
air-brake trials before deciding to go for a vacuum-fitted freight
fleet.

Never happened of course, the Southern Region PW fleet went all
air-braked as did the rest of the freight fleet, albeit many years
later.

It's strange but none of the early modernisation-plan diesels were
capable of running an air-braked train!

I remember seeing the new 305's being delivered to Chingford & Enfield
in 1960 as loose coupled, unbraked freights!

I believe that some some Scottish Class 20's were given train
air-brake plumbing to enable stock transfers between the North & South
Glasgow suburban systems.

Just to finish, one of the modification made to all the Steam on the
Met visiting steam loco's, ( except the N7 & the B12?), was to fit
them with temporary brake valves & plumbing so that they could control
air-braked coaches, with the air being provided by the "assisting"
diesel or electric loco.
Must have kept Ruislip &/or Neasden busy!

DC

"David C"  wrote in message
news:6ju1h1l900u8pabbkv2l7fr7u5b26hj131@4ax.com...

> Now try persauding the Yanks at EWS (that ordered single-piped wagons
> from Thrall Europe), that it's a good idea!


Weren't most of BR's wagons single-piped already?


> But what I should have said was:-
> Why fit Birch Grove with such a system when it is not NR approved & is
> unlikely to meet a twin-piped air-braked train on any UK preserved
> railway?


I don't follow that.  I don't know what stock the Bluebell have, but I
should have thought that most air-braked passenger stock in preservation
around the country would be twin-piped.

Roger

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:46:32 GMT, "Roger H. Bennett"
 wrote:


>"David C"  wrote in message
>news:6ju1h1l900u8pabbkv2l7fr7u5b26hj131@4ax.com...
>> Now try persauding the Yanks at EWS (that ordered single-piped wagons
>> from Thrall Europe), that it's a good idea!
>
>Weren't most of BR's wagons single-piped already?


Don't think so, since BR were very late choosing air-brakes, they were
able to take advantage of "new" technology.
When the Americans / Canadians at EWS started to order new wagons,
they seemed to have been undecided on whether to continue with the
twin-pipe system or revert back to what they new & understood.......
They same comments could apply to bogie designs, most of the
Thrall-produced equipment had 3-piece cast bogies, without primary
suspension, just like the cars "back home" yet other freight cars
ordered from Poland, etc. had normal Euro-bogies. 

>
>> But what I should have said was:-
>> Why fit Birch Grove with such a system when it is not NR approved & is
>> unlikely to meet a twin-piped air-braked train on any UK preserved
>> railway?
>
>I don't follow that.  I don't know what stock the Bluebell have, but I
>should have thought that most air-braked passenger stock in preservation
>around the country would be twin-piped.
>
>Roger
>

All the Bluebell stock is vacuum braked & Birch Grove hasn't travelled
away from the railway except to the Isle of Wight, (old, single piped
air-braked  stock) & to the Severn Valley, again vacuum-braked.

There isn't "that much" air-braked stock on the UK preserved railways,
AFIAK.

DC

> Thanks for above explanation, allthough I did actually know why the
> twin-pipe system is a "Good Thing" already!
> Now try persauding the Yanks at EWS (that ordered single-piped wagons
> from Thrall Europe), that it's a good idea!


Isn't EWS owned by Canadian National Railways?

If it is, then what have "Yanks" got to do with it?


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

> Thanks for above explanation, allthough I did actually know why the
> twin-pipe system is a "Good Thing" already!
> Now try persauding the Yanks at EWS (that ordered single-piped wagons
> from Thrall Europe), that it's a good idea!


Isn't EWS owned by Canadian National Railways?

If it is, then what have "Yanks" got to do with it?


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

"David C"


> When the Americans / Canadians at EWS


Please, don't mention Canadians and Americans as though they are one.  It
doesn't go over well with Canadians.

Besides, EWS is owned by Canadian National Railways so you should have
written, at best, "Canadians / Americans". :-)


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

"David C"


> When the Americans / Canadians at EWS


Please, don't mention Canadians and Americans as though they are one.  It
doesn't go over well with Canadians.

Besides, EWS is owned by Canadian National Railways so you should have
written, at best, "Canadians / Americans". :-)


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 23:06:42 GMT, David C  wrote:

Pendennis Castle, during its sojourn in Australia, was discretely fitted
with air-compressor and accompanying air-brake hoses (Can't use the same
vac-brake hoses, the connections are different). Is this to be retained
during restoration? I don't see why not.

Les Brown

>
>>All mainline certified steam locos which are air braked (including
>>76079, the loco working the Cambrian specials) had their air braking
>>equipment fitted in preservation. There are a few locos preserved which
>>were air-braked prior to preservation (e.g. the Terriers on the Isle of
>>Wight, Birch Grove on the Bluebell, some ex-GER locos) but none of
>>these are passed for the mainline and most usually work in vacuum brake
>>mode on their preserved lines (except on the Isle of Wight, where all
>>trains are air braked). As for BR fitting air brakes, I think there
>>were some 9F's fitted with air brakes to work iron ore trains in the
>>north east, but I don't know whether there were any others.
>
>Erm...
>The preserved N7 & B12 have working air brakes, needed too, as the
>loco's don't have a steam brake!
>(The N7's used on the Jazz, Chingford & Enfield Town services also
>needed air brakes, as the Quint-Art coaches s used up 'till the lines
>were electified were air-brake only. Some of the regular Enfield &
>Wood St. locos didn't even have vacuum brakes!)
>Birch Grove also needs it's air brake when running light.
>Q?. Birch Grove is now fitted with twin-pipe connecting hoses, ( IE
>Separate Train & Reservoir pipes,) which the current ex. BR standard.
>Does anyone know why this has been done, it's certainlly not as it was
>in BR days!
>
>The (F's weren't fitted with air brakes as the the Tyne Dock - Consett
>trains were vacuum braked, but, the Iron Ore wagons were fitted
>air-operated hopper doors, so any of the steam loco's allocated to the
>service had to have air-pumps. 
>
>HTH, David C.

Roger T wrote:


> Isn't EWS owned by Canadian National Railways?

> If it is, then what have "Yanks" got to do with it?

-------------------------------------------

Roger...

EWS, when it first emerged as the UK's newly-privatised
major rail freight carrier, was owned by the US Railroad
Wisconsin Central, which had bought up many of EWS's
former individual rail freight companies and merged them
into one. Hence EWS equipment being repainted in WC
colours.

I was still an active rail photojournalist at the time and
many of the EWS officials I met, including the then top
boss Ed Burkhardt who made at least two visits to the
UK, were Americans.

WC suffered a major internal wrangle in August 1999, which
resulted in Ed Burkhardt being ousted. His successor Robert H.
Wheeler was, like Burkhardt,  a founder member of the original
Wisconsin Central board, created in 1987. WC itself was then
purchased outright by Canadian National, which was seeking to
establish a rail freight corridor down North America, from the
Arctic to the Gulf of Mexico

EWS has several times been reported as 'for sale', but that
old WC maroon paint keeps appearing on new or repainted
locos and rolling stock!

Regards,

DigitisED  (Eddie Bellass)

Mythical Merseyside, in the Occupied Territories
of Old Lancashire, United Kingdom.

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free and checked
by a leading anti-virus system - updated continuously.

"David C"  wrote in message 
news:pu22h1plpdp1os50k76ikk2alh08gs115f@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:46:32 GMT, "Roger H. Bennett"
>  wrote:
>
>>"David C"  wrote in message
>>news:6ju1h1l900u8pabbkv2l7fr7u5b26hj131@4ax.com...
>>> Now try persauding the Yanks at EWS (that ordered single-piped wagons
>>> from Thrall Europe), that it's a good idea!
>>
>>Weren't most of BR's wagons single-piped already?
>
> Don't think so, since BR were very late choosing air-brakes, they were
> able to take advantage of "new" technology.
> When the Americans / Canadians at EWS started to order new wagons,
> they seemed to have been undecided on whether to continue with the
> twin-pipe system or revert back to what they new & understood.......
> They same comments could apply to bogie designs, most of the
> Thrall-produced equipment had 3-piece cast bogies, without primary
> suspension, just like the cars "back home" yet other freight cars
> ordered from Poland, etc. had normal Euro-bogies.
>>
>>> But what I should have said was:-
>>> Why fit Birch Grove with such a system when it is not NR approved & is
>>> unlikely to meet a twin-piped air-braked train on any UK preserved
>>> railway?
>>
>>I don't follow that.  I don't know what stock the Bluebell have, but I
>>should have thought that most air-braked passenger stock in preservation
>>around the country would be twin-piped.
>>
>>Roger
>>
> All the Bluebell stock is vacuum braked & Birch Grove hasn't travelled
> away from the railway except to the Isle of Wight, (old, single piped
> air-braked  stock) & to the Severn Valley, again vacuum-braked.
>
> There isn't "that much" air-braked stock on the UK preserved railways,
> AFIAK.
>
> DC

Single-piping on British freight stock predates EWS by at least a decade- 
basically starting when ferry vans from Europe started being conveyed by 
air-braked services in the UK as opposed to vacuum braked ones. As the 
greater part of the continental stock only had single-pipe brakes, the 
presence of just one of them in a 'twin-pipe' formation meant that the 
second pipe was effectively useless. Curiously, twin pipes are still the 
norm on European passenger stock, being referred to in France as 'CP' 
(Conduite Principale) and CG (Conduite Generale). One feature I have noted 
in French marshalling yards is the presence of static air supplies which 
allow trains ready for departure to have their reservoirs filled before a 
loco is coupled to them- is this used anywhere else?
Regarding the 'EP' experiments in the States- I don't thing that these are 
intended to supplant the train pipe, but rather to give a quicker response 
time on long trains. One of my former colleagues (now retired) was involved 
in commissioning the Sishen iron-ore line in South Africa, where very long 
and heavy formations are the norm. He said that it was usual for the brake 
still being applied at one  extremity when it was being released at the 
other end, which made driving 'interesting'. There used to be a compartment 
with a trail bike in it on the loco, so that the 'second man' could go to 
the back of the train in the event of problems.
Brian

In message <hieQe.28368$5m3.5316@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Eddie 
Bellass  writes

>Roger T wrote:
>
>> Isn't EWS owned by Canadian National Railways?
>
>> If it is, then what have "Yanks" got to do with it?

>EWS, when it first emerged as the UK's newly-privatised
>major rail freight carrier, was owned by the US Railroad
>Wisconsin Central, which had bought up many of EWS's
>former individual rail freight companies and merged them
>into one. Hence EWS equipment being repainted in WC
>colours.
>
>I was still an active rail photojournalist at the time and
>many of the EWS officials I met, including the then top
>boss Ed Burkhardt who made at least two visits to the
>UK, were Americans.
>
>WC suffered a major internal wrangle in August 1999, which
>resulted in Ed Burkhardt being ousted. His successor Robert H.
>Wheeler was, like Burkhardt,  a founder member of the original
>Wisconsin Central board, created in 1987. WC itself was then
>purchased outright by Canadian National, which was seeking to
>establish a rail freight corridor down North America, from the
>Arctic to the Gulf of Mexico
>
>EWS has several times been reported as 'for sale', but that
>old WC maroon paint keeps appearing on new or repainted
>locos and rolling stock!


I don't think CN has ever owned a majority stake in EWS.

In September 2002, I wrote

================================================
In article <Bpvc9.6092$7N.23940@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net>, Keith 
Hitler  writes

>Canadian National Railway Company (CN) owns 42.5% of English, Welsh &
>Scottish Railway
>Holdings Ltd (EWS) from its acquisition of Wisconsin Central.
>
>Who owns the rest?


 From http://www.eriksrailnews.com/archive/january01.html
it would appear to be

Berkshire Partners
http://www.berkshirepartners.com/3_1_current_investments.shtml

and

Fay, Richwhite & Cie
http://www.berkshirepartners.com/1_2_2_fay_richwhite.shtml
http://www.fayrichwhite.ch

though the Independent story at
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=54227
does say 'Other investors..." rather than 'The other investors...' so 
there could be more.
================================================

http://www.cn.ca/about/investors/pdf/FinancialInfo2003Q4en.pdf says
================================================
At December 31, 2003, CN owned 43.7 million shares,
or approximately 40% (approximately 37% on a fully
diluted basis) of EWS. CN has elected to have the
maximum allowable number of shares cancelled under the
plan. As a result of the share cancellation plan, CN will
receive GBP 81.6 million (or approximately Cdn$188 million)
from EWS, of which GBP 23.9 million (or approximately
Cdn$55 million) will be in the form of EWS notes. After
the EWS share cancellation is complete, CN's ownership of
EWS will be approximately 31% on a fully diluted basis.
================================================
and
http://www.cn.ca/about/investors/pdf/CDN_GAAP_PAR_2004_FOR_FILING.pdf
================================================
Investment in English Welsh and Scottish Railway (EWS)
As at December 31, 2004, the Company owned approximately 32%
of EWS
================================================

Of course, Berkshire Partners were one of the groups that bought EMD, 
the locomotive manufacturers, from General Motors...

-- 
Michael Parry

Michael,

Thanks for that update.

My generalisation of the EWS/CN relationship was
drawn from my memory of events 5 to 6 years ago.

I haven't really delved into such matters since poor
health forced me to withdraw from regular involvement
in reporting and photographing the current rail scene.


Regards,

DigitisED  (Eddie Bellass)

Mythical Merseyside, in the Occupied Territories
of Old Lancashire, United Kingdom.

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free and checked
by a leading anti-virus system - updated continuously.

"Eddie Bellass"


>> Isn't EWS owned by Canadian National Railways?
>
>> If it is, then what have "Yanks" got to do with it?
> -------------------------------------------


> WC suffered a major internal wrangle in August 1999, which
> resulted in Ed Burkhardt being ousted. His successor Robert H.
> Wheeler was, like Burkhardt,  a founder member of the original
> Wisconsin Central board, created in 1987. WC itself was then
> purchased outright by Canadian National,


Right, so why the reference to "Yanks" if EWS is owned by CNR?


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

"Roger T."  wrote in message 
news:f02b2fee77eea2c5b98563c71f62df0d@grapevine.islandnet.com...

>
>
>> Thanks for above explanation, allthough I did actually know why the
>> twin-pipe system is a "Good Thing" already!
>> Now try persauding the Yanks at EWS (that ordered single-piped wagons
>> from Thrall Europe), that it's a good idea!
>
> Isn't EWS owned by Canadian National Railways?


It certainly wasn't when the Thrall HTA/BRA/BYA wagons were ordered...

-- 
*** http://www.railwayscene.co.uk/ ***
Rich Mackin (rich-at-richmackin-co-uk)
MSN: richmackin-at-hotmail-dot-com

Roger T asked:


> Right, so why the reference to "Yanks" if EWS is owned by CNR?

------------------------------------

Roger...

As far as I know, some of EWS's upper management,
originally sent across the Atlantic by WC, have remained
in their UK jobs since CN took over WC.


Regards,

DigitisED  (Eddie Bellass)

Mythical Merseyside, in the Occupied Territories
of Old Lancashire, United Kingdom.

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free and checked
by a leading anti-virus system - updated continuously.

>> Right, so why the reference to "Yanks" if EWS is owned by CNR?
> ------------------------------------
>
> Roger...
>
> As far as I know, some of EWS's upper management,
> originally sent across the Atlantic by WC, have remained
> in their UK jobs since CN took over WC.



Weeeeeeell, OK, I'll let you get away with it, this time.  :-)


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

Eddie Bellass wrote:


> . Hence EWS equipment being repainted in WC
> colours.

> old WC maroon paint keeps appearing on new or repainted
> locos and rolling stock!


Now I'm confused.

I'm with you on the WC/EWS/CN relationships but not on the liveires.

Surely the maroon and yellow was adopted in the UK first and then
applied to other parts of the group i.e. Estonia.

I don't seriously follow such stuff but I don't recall seeing WC diesel
 pictures in maroon and yellow *before* they got involved in UK. OTH, I
was not really following them as EMD-junk users.

--
Nick

Nick...

My memory is getting a bit shaky as I establish myself
well and truly in my 8th decade on Earth, but I took the
US 'Trains Magazine' on subscription (along with Model
Railroader, Roger T) from 1950-51 to the 1990s.

I thought I remembered seeing pix of maroon (or a similar
red)-coloured Wisconsin Central locos before BR was
privatised, let alone most of its biggest freight operator sold
to the then Ed Burkhardt's US management team.

Incidentally, I once rode in an East Lancashire Rly train
hauled by an ex-LMS Crab 2-6-0 driven by Ed Burkhardt.
Ed --- it was pointed out that day --- was typical of US rail
bosses in so far as he was a practical railroad man who
had done most of the hard & dirty jobs in the industry before
taking up his seat in the boardroom.


Regards,

DigitisED  (Eddie Bellass)

Mythical Merseyside, in the Occupied Territories
of Old Lancashire, United Kingdom.

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free and checked
by a leading anti-virus system - updated continuously.

Eddie Bellass wrote:


>


Maybe I am thinking of the livery style with yellow rather than just
the maroon base colour.

--
Nick

"Eddie Bellass"


> I thought I remembered seeing pix of maroon (or a similar
> red)-coloured Wisconsin Central locos before BR was
> privatised, let alone most of its biggest freight operator sold
> to the then Ed Burkhardt's US management team.


My memory says the same thing Eddie.


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

"D7666"  wrote in message
news:1125248272.556664.141490@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

>
> Eddie Bellass wrote:
>
> > . Hence EWS equipment being repainted in WC
> > colours.
>
> > old WC maroon paint keeps appearing on new or repainted
> > locos and rolling stock!
>
> Now I'm confused.
>
> I'm with you on the WC/EWS/CN relationships but not on the liveires.
>
> Surely the maroon and yellow was adopted in the UK first and then
> applied to other parts of the group i.e. Estonia.
>
> I don't seriously follow such stuff but I don't recall seeing WC diesel
>  pictures in maroon and yellow *before* they got involved in UK. OTH, I
> was not really following them as EMD-junk users.


I have several shots of WC units in the maroon and cream going back as far
as 1989.  Calling them "EMD-junk users" is a bit harsh, they did a good job
of managing their motive power requirements by rebuilding ex Soo, Missouri
Pacific, BN units etc.  That puts them in a higher category than some of the
rent a wreck units roaming the rails now.

BF



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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"D7666"  wrote in message
news:1125248272.556664.141490@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

>
> Eddie Bellass wrote:
>
> > . Hence EWS equipment being repainted in WC
> > colours.
>
> > old WC maroon paint keeps appearing on new or repainted
> > locos and rolling stock!
>
> Now I'm confused.
>
> I'm with you on the WC/EWS/CN relationships but not on the liveires.
>
> Surely the maroon and yellow was adopted in the UK first and then
> applied to other parts of the group i.e. Estonia.
>
> I don't seriously follow such stuff but I don't recall seeing WC diesel
>  pictures in maroon and yellow *before* they got involved in UK. OTH, I
> was not really following them as EMD-junk users.
>
> --
> Nick


Isn't the Estonian operations a Burkhardt production.  I thought WC's only
foreign operations were EWS and Tranzrail.

BF



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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Eddie Bellass wrote:


> My memory is getting a bit shaky as I establish myself
> well and truly in my 8th decade on Earth


And then wrote:


> DigitisED  (Eddie Bellass)


kewl

> Isn't the Estonian operations a Burkhardt production.
> I thought WC's only foreign operations were EWS and Tranzrail.

---------------------------------------

Bryan...

I did a Google search on Ed Burkhardt somewhere in the middle
of the run of this thread and he did get involved in Estonian Rail
sometime after his less-than-happy parting from WC.


Regards,

DigitisED  (Eddie Bellass)

Mythical Merseyside, in the Occupied Territories
of Old Lancashire, United Kingdom.

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free and checked
by a leading anti-virus system - updated continuously.

Mark Annand wrote:


> kewl

----------------------------

Mark...

I'm not yet *too* ancient, I hope!

"... in my 8th decade on Earth" means I've been around
for a full 7 of them and am now in the next one up.

I'm an early 1934 model, still in running order though
having a few rather worn main bearings!

:-)  :-)  :-)

Regards,

DigitisED  (Eddie Bellass)

Mythical Merseyside, in the Occupied Territories
of Old Lancashire, United Kingdom.

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free and checked
by a leading anti-virus system - updated continuously.

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 21:04:11 GMT, "Eddie Bellass"
 wrote:


>I'm an early 1934 model, still in running order though
>having a few rather worn main bearings!


Blasted youngsters:-)
-- 
Terry Harper (1933 vintage)
Website Coordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org

Eddie Bellass wrote:

<snip>

I was quite serious. Every time I read


> DigitisED 


a grin sneaks up on me.

Mark Annand wrote:


> I was quite serious. Every time I read
> DigitisED a grin sneaks up on me.

---------------------------

Mark...

It's time I confessed then!

My one time telecomms engineering apprentice at work,
Alan Hart, is quite a master photographer in all subjects,
human, natural and mechanical. We are still close friends.

When - after borrowing my Fuji S602z  -  Alan put aside his
film SLRs and bought a S602z* for himself, he altered his
e-mail signature in the e-photo groups to 'DigitAL'.

After laughing my socks off, I stole the basic idea for myself!

*Alan is sufficiently 'well in' with a local photo dealer to have
on loan a Fuji 'real' SLR which takes all his old Nikon lenses.

:-)

Regards,

DigitisED  (Eddie Bellass)

Mythical Merseyside, in the Occupied Territories
of Old Lancashire, United Kingdom.

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free and checked
by a leading anti-virus system - updated continuously.

D7666 wrote:

> Eddie Bellass wrote:
>
> > . Hence EWS equipment being repainted in WC
> > colours.
>
> > old WC maroon paint keeps appearing on new or repainted
> > locos and rolling stock!
>
> Now I'm confused.
>
> I'm with you on the WC/EWS/CN relationships but not on the liveires.
>
> Surely the maroon and yellow was adopted in the UK first and then
> applied to other parts of the group i.e. Estonia.
>
> I don't seriously follow such stuff but I don't recall seeing WC diesel
>  pictures in maroon and yellow *before* they got involved in UK. OTH, I
> was not really following them as EMD-junk users.
>
> --
> Nick


WC employed maroon and yellow liveried secondhand motive power for
several years before starting EWS. If only BR had bought some of this
"junk" earlier instead of wasting money on expensive, over specced,
mediocre designs from the 1960s and 70s wasting millions of taxpayers
money in the process.

jon.porter1@lycosmax.co.uk wrote:


> WC employed maroon and yellow liveried secondhand motive power for
> several years before starting EWS. 


Certainly did.


> If only BR had bought some of this
> "junk" earlier instead of wasting money on expensive, over specced,
> mediocre designs from the 1960s and 70s wasting millions of taxpayers
> money in the process.


ES Cox in 'Locomotive Panorama' claims there were 'no dollars
available' to buy GM diesel engines at the time of the Poliot
Scheme, and GM would not allow production under licence in the UK.

BOAC seems to have bought American airliners in the 1950s AND
60s though - but did they have British engines?

Charlie

Charlie Hulme wrote:


> BOAC seems to have bought American airliners in the 1950s AND 60s 
> though - but did they have British engines?

----------------------------

Charlie...

Yes, they did.

The 707's history pages on the WWW at:

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Boeing-707

quote:

"... The 707-420 version, produced originally for BOAC, was powered 
by
Rolls-Royce Conway engines. After technical problems with the Comet,
BOAC resumed jet service with imported Boeing 707s. The Rolls-Royce
Conway was the first by-pass engine to go into service in the world. 
.... "

We are now a long way from EWS, let alone Cambrian Steam!  ;-)


Regards,

DigitisED  (Eddie Bellass)

Mythical Merseyside, in the Occupied Territories
of Old Lancashire, United Kingdom.

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free and checked
by a leading anti-virus system - updated continuously.

In article <RoDQe.1407$B4.114@newsfe5-win.ntli.net>,
Charlie Hulme   wrote:

>jon.porter1@lycosmax.co.uk wrote:
>
>> WC employed maroon and yellow liveried secondhand motive power for
>> several years before starting EWS. 
>
>Certainly did.
>
>> If only BR had bought some of this
>> "junk" earlier instead of wasting money on expensive, over specced,
>> mediocre designs from the 1960s and 70s wasting millions of taxpayers
>> money in the process.
>
>ES Cox in 'Locomotive Panorama' claims there were 'no dollars
>available' to buy GM diesel engines at the time of the Poliot
>Scheme, and GM would not allow production under licence in the UK.
>
>BOAC seems to have bought American airliners in the 1950s AND
>60s though - but did they have British engines?


Some of them did. BOAC's 707s had RR Conways, unless I'm very much 
mistaken - but the Stratocruisers they'd operated 10-odd years 
earlier had USian radials: they'd not been re-engineered to use
British engines. OTOH the DC-6s they had did get British engines
- Merlins - as the Argonaut. Those were Canadian-built, mind, so
that might have made a difference.

Which prompts a thought - if EMD had moved some production into
Ontario in the late 40s (let's say to where it is now) then 
those locomotives would have been commonwealth production
and we could have been spared almost all the ModPlan classes.

-- 
Andy Breen ~ 	Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
		Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
		 money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

"Andrew Robert Breen"


> Which prompts a thought - if EMD had moved some production into
> Ontario in the late 40s (let's say to where it is now) then
> those locomotives would have been commonwealth production
> and we could have been spared almost all the ModPlan classes.


GMD, General Motors Diesel, the Canadian Subsidiary of EMD,  have had a
plant in Windsor Ontario since 1949/50.

See: -  http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/gmd/GMD.html

Obviously, "they" didn't want to import "American" designed locomotives into
the UK.  Another example of "We do it differently over here."


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

In message <deq1g3$4tq$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, BH Williams 
 writes

>
>"Charles Ellson"  wrote in message
>news:7iavg195vf32ddi759ees7ql1u5n4gek9a@4ax.com...
>> yyOn 26 Aug 2005 15:13:32 -0700, "malc" 
>> wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> As for BR fitting air brakes, I think there
>>>were some 9F's fitted with air brakes to work iron ore trains in the
>>>north east, but I don't know whether there were any others.
>>
>> See Google for "Steam on Tyne Dock to Consett Iron Ore Trains". In one
>> of the more detailed postings ("27 of 39") Graeme Wall describes the
>> wagons as vacuum-braked with air-operated discharge equipment while
>> Geoff Bannister refers to a couple of Britannias trial-fitted for
>> other traffic elsewhere.
>> --
>>                                                             _______
>> +---------------------------------------------------+      |\\   //|
>> | Charles Ellson: charles@e11son.demon.co.uk        |      | \\ // |
>> +---------------------------------------------------+      |  > <  |
>>                                                            | // \\ |
>>                                              Alba gu brath |//___\\|
>Weren't some Standard Class 5s fitted with air-brakes during BR days? Apart
>from the ex-GE section, did anywhere else retain air-brakes post Grouping?
>Brian
>
>

In Scotland it persisted, right into BR days. The Caledonian was a 
massive user of Air Brakes, the NBR, GNSR and HR to a lesser extent.
-- 
Regards,

James Christie

"Luck is my middle name," he said, indistinctly.
"Mind you, my first name is Bad."

Eddie Bellass wrote:

> Mark Annand wrote:
> 
> 
>>I was quite serious. Every time I read
>>DigitisED a grin sneaks up on me.
> 
> ---------------------------
> 
> Mark...
> 
> It's time I confessed then!
> 
> My one time telecomms engineering apprentice at work,
> Alan Hart, is quite a master photographer in all subjects,
> human, natural and mechanical. We are still close friends.
> 
> When - after borrowing my Fuji S602z  -  Alan put aside his
> film SLRs and bought a S602z* for himself, he altered his
> e-mail signature in the e-photo groups to 'DigitAL'.
> 
> After laughing my socks off, I stole the basic idea for myself!
> 
> *Alan is sufficiently 'well in' with a local photo dealer to have
> on loan a Fuji 'real' SLR which takes all his old Nikon lenses.
> 
> :-)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> DigitisED  (Eddie Bellass)


Thanks for that. Stephen Maturin would have delighted in that humour.

Mark

Roger T. wrote:


> Obviously, "they" didn't want to import "American" designed locomotives into
> the UK.  Another example of "We do it differently over here."


We did do it differently over here. And one of those differences
concerns the Technical Centre and all the things it was interested in
finding out. I remember a good number of diesel locos in the blue era
carrying little plastic plates on them to indicate that some experiment
or other was being undertaken with that particular locomotive. I haven't
seen anything similar on one for yonks. Does anybody still bother with
such things?

-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632826.html
(33 010 at Shrewsbury, 8 Aug 1982)

Chris Tolley wrote:

> Roger T. wrote:
>
> > Obviously, "they" didn't want to import "American" designed locomotives into
> > the UK.  Another example of "We do it differently over here."
>
> We did do it differently over here. And one of those differences
> concerns the Technical Centre and all the things it was interested in
> finding out. I remember a good number of diesel locos in the blue era
> carrying little plastic plates on them to indicate that some experiment
> or other was being undertaken with that particular locomotive. I haven't
> seen anything similar on one for yonks. Does anybody still bother with
> such things?
>
>

Still goes on but with Ravers and other maintenance computers there is
no need to put labels on locos. The requirements are there to see as
soon as the initial page is opened for the vehicle. No one commences
work until these requirements are read. There are several such
experiments/trials ongoing in our fleet with a particular
engineer/company allocated to monitoring and on call to give advice if
needed.

jon.porter1@lycosmax.co.uk wrote:

> Still goes on but with Ravers and other maintenance computers there is
> no need to put labels on locos. The requirements are there to see as
> soon as the initial page is opened for the vehicle. No one commences
> work until these requirements are read. There are several such
> experiments/trials ongoing in our fleet with a particular
> engineer/company allocated to monitoring and on call to give advice if
> needed.


Thanks, Jon. Most illuminating.

-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p13309741.html
(43 015 at Wolverhampton, 4 Oct 1987)

Returning to the original topic of air brakes.

IIRC All the "speedlink" freight stock was delivered with the two-pipe
system as well as all the MGR and domestic coal hoppers and other
freight stock of that era. In the early 1990s a programme of
rationalising braking systems was implemented where the reservoir pipe
side of the brake system was isolated and / or removed from freight
stock.

New stock from private builders to EWS has indeed been single piped,
but arn't the Freighliner HH hoppers fitted for twin pipe operation ? I
wouldn't swear to it but I'm sure I've seen some yellow cocked res
pipes on the silver and green coal hoppers ?

Cheets
Phil

Chris Tolley wrote:


> We did do it differently over here. And one of those differences
> concerns the Technical Centre and all the things it was interested in
> finding out. I remember a good number of diesel locos in the blue era
> carrying little plastic plates on them to indicate that some experiment
> or other was being undertaken with that particular locomotive.


That pre-dates the RTC - steam locos carried similar plates (though
usually made of metal).

wyrleybart@hotmail.com wrote:


> IIRC All the "speedlink" freight stock was delivered with the two-pipe
> system as well as all the MGR and domestic coal hoppers and other
> freight stock of that era.


Yes ....

..... and SR air brake departmentals too - Seacow and Whale SR based
bogie ballast hopper were possibly AB only from new - the one region
that got this bit right.




> In the early 1990s a programme of
> rationalising braking systems was implemented where the reservoir pipe
> side of the brake system was isolated and / or removed from freight
> stock.



I recall when they first did this MGR rakes ran with the yellow pipess
till
fitted to each wagon but each one not connected but hanging loose.



> New stock from private builders to EWS has indeed been single piped,
> but arn't the Freighliner HH hoppers fitted for twin pipe operation ? I
> wouldn't swear to it but I'm sure I've seen some yellow cocked res
> pipes on the silver and green coal hoppers ?


Is this not a maximum speed related thing ? I might be wrong, you must
know more about this stuff than I do Phil !!!


--
Nick

In article ,
Roger T.  wrote:

>
>"Andrew Robert Breen"
>
>> Which prompts a thought - if EMD had moved some production into
>> Ontario in the late 40s (let's say to where it is now) then
>> those locomotives would have been commonwealth production
>> and we could have been spared almost all the ModPlan classes.
>
>GMD, General Motors Diesel, the Canadian Subsidiary of EMD,  have had a
>plant in Windsor Ontario since 1949/50.
>
>See: -  http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/gmd/GMD.html
>
>Obviously, "they" didn't want to import "American" designed locomotives into
>the UK.  Another example of "We do it differently over here."


I can see a case - industrial policy-wise, for support for home 
manufacturers playing a part there. It might have been better if
they'd confined it to the one competitive home manufacturer (EE),
but the same thing could have been said about whole swathes of
UK industry at the same time (airliners, for example). There was
a near-miss in 1946 or so when the LN&E wanted to replace its
Pacifics with Alco diesels, but IIRC currency restrictions 
killed that. Wonder if EMD's Canadian move was in part prompted
by the hope of picking up a similar order? Probably not, though.

-- 
Andy Breen ~ 	Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
		
		"Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes)

On 29 Aug 2005 20:41:34 -0700, in article
, "D7666"
 wrote in uk.railway: 


>
>wyrleybart@hotmail.com wrote:

>> New stock from private builders to EWS has indeed been single piped,
>> but arn't the Freighliner HH hoppers fitted for twin pipe operation ? I
>> wouldn't swear to it but I'm sure I've seen some yellow cocked res
>> pipes on the silver and green coal hoppers ?
>
>Is this not a maximum speed related thing ? I might be wrong, you must
>know more about this stuff than I do Phil !!!


My understanding is that main res pipes mean that it's very hard, if not
impossible to piss your air away - unlike single piped systems. I think
that's quite a good thing when you're running a couple of thousand
tonnes of coal at class 6 speeds instead of class 8...
Cheers,
Chris Pemberton, Pendleton, Salford, Lancs.
-- 
This post contains my personal opinion only. If I am in a position to
speak for somebody I'll say so.

D7666 wrote:

>
>
>
> > New stock from private builders to EWS has indeed been single piped,
> > but arn't the Freighliner HH hoppers fitted for twin pipe operation ? I
> > wouldn't swear to it but I'm sure I've seen some yellow cocked res
> > pipes on the silver and green coal hoppers ?
>
> Is this not a maximum speed related thing ? I might be wrong, you must
> know more about this stuff than I do Phil !!!

>
> --
> Nick

The main reason for going back to two pipe system on all bogie coal
hoppers is that the bottom discharge doors are air operated with a
suppy from the main res. pipe.The maximum speed related thing does not
come into it.

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:12:12 GMT, Chris Tolley wrote in
<1jnwopsdb9nx6$.u6qy2ltkq16w$.dlg@40tude.net>, seen in uk.railway:

> Roger T. wrote:
> 
> > Obviously, "they" didn't want to import "American" designed locomotives into
> > the UK.  Another example of "We do it differently over here."
> 
> We did do it differently over here. And one of those differences
> concerns the Technical Centre and all the things it was interested in
> finding out. I remember a good number of diesel locos in the blue era
> carrying little plastic plates on them to indicate that some experiment
> or other was being undertaken with that particular locomotive. I haven't
> seen anything similar on one for yonks. Does anybody still bother with
> such things?


Maintrain occasionally label up units they're playing with. 

Depending on the depot, the notice can range from a piece of paper
sellotaped to the desk, to a laser label, to a bit of labelling tape,
to a laminated notice glued to the wall, to (if you're really lucky)
an engraved plastic sign.

-- 
Ross, Lincoln, UK

We're *not* afraid
http://www.werenotafraid.com