Hello, a quick few questions relating to a thread active over on
uk.transport.london ("Blue is the new Pink..." regarding TfL's Oyster
cards - though said cards have no direct relevance to this post). I
decided not to cross post so as not to make a mess!

I'd just like to get a few things clear with regards to combining
tickets and season tickets, and hope some of the world-class ticketing
minds here might gracefully spare a moment to tackle these questions.

(1) I'm correct in saying a passenger can use two seperate tickets,
A-to-B and B-to-C to get from A-to-C, whilst on the same train as long
as the train stops at station B

(2) I also believe there's been a recent change (or possibly
clarification?) to the NCoC meaning that holder of an A-to-B season
ticket can buy a B-to-C ticket and travel on a train that doesn't stop
at station B - am I right in saying this?

(3) The real question I need answered! What are the rules regarding
combining season tickets? Can a passenger use both A-to-B and a B-to-C
season tickets on a train that doesn't stop at station B?
And, though I don't see why it should, does it make any difference to
anything if one of those two season tickets is a London Travelcard?


Any answers gratefully received.

> (3) The real question I need answered! What are the rules regarding
> combining season tickets? Can a passenger use both A-to-B and a B-to-C
> season tickets on a train that doesn't stop at station B?
> And, though I don't see why it should, does it make any difference to
> anything if one of those two season tickets is a London Travelcard?
>


Basically the "train must stop" rule does not apply if one ticket is a zonal 
ticket (i.e. travelcard) or season ticket, so having a travelcard and a 
season ticket fulfils this requirement

-- 
-=# Amos E Wolfe #=-
AIM: Traindriver9334
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On 25 Aug 2005 18:45:02 -0700, "Mizter T"  wrote:


>(1) I'm correct in saying a passenger can use two seperate tickets,
>A-to-B and B-to-C to get from A-to-C, whilst on the same train as long
>as the train stops at station B

Yes.

>(2) I also believe there's been a recent change (or possibly
>clarification?) to the NCoC meaning that holder of an A-to-B season
>ticket can buy a B-to-C ticket and travel on a train that doesn't stop
>at station B - am I right in saying this?


Yes, so long as the B-C ticket is *not* a season ticket.


>(3) The real question I need answered! What are the rules regarding
>combining season tickets? Can a passenger use both A-to-B and a B-to-C
>season tickets on a train that doesn't stop at station B?


Only if one is a PTE season, as that doesn't count as a season for
these purposes.


>And, though I don't see why it should, does it make any difference to
>anything if one of those two season tickets is a London Travelcard?


I'm really not sure - does a TfL Travelcard count as a season for
these purposes or not, I wonder?  If both tickets are bought at the
same time, mind, there is little reason to do this, as a through
Travelcard season will not be more expensive.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Poor etiquette to reply to my own post I know but I need to make one
thing clear...

Mizter T wrote:

> Hello, a quick few questions relating to a thread active over on
> uk.transport.london ("Blue is the new Pink..." regarding TfL's Oyster
> cards - though said cards have no direct relevance to this post). I
> decided not to cross post so as not to make a mess!
>
> I'd just like to get a few things clear with regards to combining
> tickets and season tickets, and hope some of the world-class ticketing
> minds here might gracefully spare a moment to tackle these questions.
>
> (1) I'm correct in saying a passenger can use two seperate tickets,
> A-to-B and B-to-C to get from A-to-C, whilst on the same train as long
> as the train stops at station B


Apologies - the above item was supposed to be framed as a question as
opposed to an assertion of how correct I am! (i.e. It should've read
"Am I correct...?" rather than "I am correct...".)


> (2) I also believe there's been a recent change (or possibly
> clarification?) to the NCoC meaning that holder of an A-to-B season
> ticket can buy a B-to-C ticket and travel on a train that doesn't stop
> at station B - am I right in saying this?
>
> (3) The real question I need answered! What are the rules regarding
> combining season tickets? Can a passenger use both A-to-B and a B-to-C
> season tickets on a train that doesn't stop at station B?
> And, though I don't see why it should, does it make any difference to
> anything if one of those two season tickets is a London Travelcard?
> 
> 
> Any answers gratefully received.

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:27:56 GMT, "Amos E Wolfe"
 wrote:


>Basically the "train must stop" rule does not apply if one ticket is a zonal 
>ticket (i.e. travelcard) or season ticket, so having a travelcard and a 
>season ticket fulfils this requirement


I thought both had to be zonal?  (presumably to allow the use of
Boundary Zone tickets with Travelcards)

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Neil Williams wrote:

>
> < snip points (1) and (2)>
>
> >(3) The real question I need answered! What are the rules regarding
> >combining season tickets? Can a passenger use both A-to-B and a B-to-C
> >season tickets on a train that doesn't stop at station B?
>
> Only if one is a PTE season, as that doesn't count as a season for
> these purposes.
>
> >And, though I don't see why it should, does it make any difference to
> >anything if one of those two season tickets is a London Travelcard?
>
> I'm really not sure - does a TfL Travelcard count as a season for
> these purposes or not, I wonder?  If both tickets are bought at the
> same time, mind, there is little reason to do this, as a through
> Travelcard season will not be more expensive.


Firstly, I'm grateful to you for verifying my answers to the first two
points.

Regarding the third point - I too was under the impression that a
combined
season ticket with Travelcard element (for when the origin station is
outside the zones) would've been cheaper than getting two seperate
season tickets i.e. a rail season  a Travelcard season. However over
on uk.transport.london someone has pointed out an example on WAGN where
this is not the case.

Courtesy of WAGN's season ticket sales website I've been able to check
the prices myself and they are below. The hypothetical journey is from
Stevenage to London - normally a Stevenage to 'R1256' (i.e. a
Travelcard valid in all 6 zones) would be purchased. I've compared that
with buying a seperate Stevenage to Hadley Wood ticket and an All Zones
Travelcard. Hadley Wood is the first station (or last station,
depending on your viewpoint!) in the London Travelcard area, in Zone 6.


The timetables show that Hadley Wood is only served by local trains
(Welwyn Garden City to Moorgate or Kings Cross), and trains from
Stevenage don't stop there. At the end of this post I've included links
to a couple of maps that might help those not familiar with this area.


Price comparison for monthly season tickets
(prices exclude any potential Passengers Charter discounts)

Monthly season prices

Stevenage - Hadley Wood         £142.50
Travelcard - All Zones          £151.70
Total                           £294.20

Stevenage - R1256               £311.10


Thus buying two seperate tickets would appear to save you £16.90 a
month. However I remain to be convinced that combining these season
tickets on this route would be legit.

I am not that familiar with these routes and one potential problem I
can see is that whilst some stopping Stevenage to London trains do via
the Welwyn Garden City line (as the TT shows them stopping there),
others are fast from Stevenage all the way to Finsbury Park then Kings
X - notionally they could go via the Hertford North line, where it is
Crews Hill, not Hadley Wood, which is the first station in the
Travelcard area. If this were to be the case (and unfortunately I don't
know the route they actually do take) then logically a seperate
Stevenage - Hadley Wood  All Zones Travelcard combo would not be
valid.

I hope others can provide some definitive information on this.

TIA.

---
Link to London & the South East rail map:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/downloads/LxSE_May_x05.pdf
Link to London Connections map:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/downloads/LC_May_x05.pdf
---

"Neil Williams"  wrote

>
> I'm really not sure - does a TfL Travelcard count as a season for
> these purposes or not, I wonder?  If both tickets are bought at the
> same time, mind, there is little reason to do this, as a through
> Travelcard season will not be more expensive.
>

One situation where a Travelcard season plus an ordinary season might be
relevant is for a passenger whose commuter journey was across London, e.g.
Dartford to Slough, but who also needed to travel within Greater London. A
Dartford to Slough season would only allow LUL for the transfer between
London termini (or other interchange stations), and wouldn't allow
occasional journeys on London buses, out to Croydon, on DLR, etc. Would a
Dartford to all zones travelcard plus a West Drayton - Slough season require
the journey out to Slough to be on a  train which calls at West Drayton.
Similarly, would a Dartford - Crayford season and a Slough to all zones
travelcard require the journey from Dartford to be via the Sidcup Loop, and
not via Bexleyheath or Woowich?

Peter

In message , at 07:20:18 on Fri, 26 Aug 
2005, Neil Williams  remarked:

>>(3) The real question I need answered! What are the rules regarding
>>combining season tickets? Can a passenger use both A-to-B and a B-to-C
>>season tickets on a train that doesn't stop at station B?
>
>Only if one is a PTE season, as that doesn't count as a season for
>these purposes.
>
>>And, though I don't see why it should, does it make any difference to
>>anything if one of those two season tickets is a London Travelcard?
>
>I'm really not sure - does a TfL Travelcard count as a season for
>these purposes or not, I wonder?


I'm astonished the answer to this isn't well known. God forbid that the 
rules would say "for the avoidance of doubt a London Travelcard is/is 
not a season ticket".
-- 
Roland Perry

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Roland Perry wrote:


> I'm astonished the answer to this isn't well known. God forbid that 
> the rules would say "for the avoidance of doubt a London Travelcard 
> is/is not a season ticket".


A London season travelcard *is* a season ticket for this purpose, as 
has been cited here numerous times before; it is *not* excluded in the 
way that PTE-issued season tickets are excluded elsewhere.

A London *Day Travelcard* is not a season ticket in these terms: but 
there are special rules for London day travelcards, which mean that 
for the purpose of combining tickets, they work pretty much like it.

AIUI, anyway.

In message , at 
11:12:20 on Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Alan J. Flavell  
remarked:

>A London season travelcard *is* a season ticket for this purpose, as
>has been cited here numerous times before; it is *not* excluded in the
>way that PTE-issued season tickets are excluded elsewhere.


Thanks. So it's possible to add a day-ticket to a season Travelcard, but 
not combine a season Travelcard with a NR season (for the purposes of 
non-stopping at the boundary station).

-- 
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

> In message , at
> 11:12:20 on Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Alan J. Flavell 
> remarked:
> >A London season travelcard *is* a season ticket for this purpose, as
> >has been cited here numerous times before; it is *not* excluded in the
> >way that PTE-issued season tickets are excluded elsewhere.
>
> Thanks. So it's possible to add a day-ticket to a season Travelcard, but
> not combine a season Travelcard with a NR season (for the purposes of
> non-stopping at the boundary station).


OK, so I'm being pretty dense here as I'm still not clear on the rules.
I've just read Rule 17 of the NCoC ("A combination of tickets") and it
suggests (to me at least) two things...

(1) That it is *not* legitimate to combine two season tickets on a
train which does _not_ stop at the ticket changeover station (i.e.
where one season ticket's validity ends and another begins).

(2) Thus this suggest to me that a rail _season_ ticket + _season_
Travelcard combination, where the train does _not_ stop at the ticket
changeover station, is *not* a valid combination.

If anyone can definitively confirm or deny my interpretations that'd be
much appreciated.

I'd also urge people to read my other post this morning (posted 9.25 in
reply to Neil Williams) which explains a specific scenario on WAGN,
which might put the above querys into context.

In message , at 
04:43:56 on Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Mizter T  remarked:

>OK, so I'm being pretty dense here as I'm still not clear on the rules.
>I've just read Rule 17 of the NCoC ("A combination of tickets") and it
>suggests (to me at least) two things...
>
>(1) That it is *not* legitimate to combine two season tickets on a
>train which does _not_ stop at the ticket changeover station (i.e.
>where one season ticket's validity ends and another begins).
>
>(2) Thus this suggest to me that a rail _season_ ticket + _season_
>Travelcard combination, where the train does _not_ stop at the ticket
>changeover station, is *not* a valid combination.


Both of those are what I currently understand to be the situation.


>If anyone can definitively


Only ATOC can do that, I expect; for the rest of us, the best we can do 
is believe we understand the rules and hope to have examined all the 
potential loopholes and gotchas, and know fully what each of the jargon 
words means.


>confirm or deny my interpretations that'd be
>much appreciated.


-- 
Roland Perry

"Neil Williams"  wrote in message 
news:430ec2e4.2078248@news.tesco.net...

> On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:27:56 GMT, "Amos E Wolfe"
>  wrote:
>
>>Basically the "train must stop" rule does not apply if one ticket is a 
>>zonal
>>ticket (i.e. travelcard) or season ticket, so having a travelcard and a
>>season ticket fulfils this requirement
>
> I thought both had to be zonal?  (presumably to allow the use of
> Boundary Zone tickets with Travelcards)
>


If you hold a zones 1-6 day travelcard, it is possible to buy a single from 
"Boundary Zone 6" to your destination. The second ticket is not technically 
a "zonal ticket" but refers to several distinct points depending on the 
route. For example from Boundary zone 6 to Milton Keynes, the "boundary 
point" is Hatch End station, but the train is not required to call there.


-- 
-=# Amos E Wolfe #=-
AIM: Traindriver9334
Get Firefox: http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=user/register&r=122394

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:13:14 +0000 (UTC), "Peter Masson"
 wrote:


>
>"Neil Williams"  wrote
>>
>> I'm really not sure - does a TfL Travelcard count as a season for
>> these purposes or not, I wonder?  If both tickets are bought at the
>> same time, mind, there is little reason to do this, as a through
>> Travelcard season will not be more expensive.
>>
>One situation where a Travelcard season plus an ordinary season might be
>relevant is for a passenger whose commuter journey was across London, e.g.
>Dartford to Slough, but who also needed to travel within Greater London.
>
>A Dartford to Slough season would only allow LUL for the transfer between
>London termini (or other interchange stations), and wouldn't allow
>occasional journeys on London buses, out to Croydon, on DLR, etc.


In such a case (we had a request for a quote for a Leicester to Epsom
season whilst I was at St Pancras), I would generally expect the quoted
fare to be calculated as Dartford to All Zones + Slough to All Zones -
All Zones, with the ticket issued with a route of "Zone R1256 Zones",
given the only option for a "cross-London" transfer from outside the
zones is to issue an <x> to All Zones ticket.

Cheers,

Barry

-- 
Barry Salter, barry at southie dot me dot uk
Read uk.* newsgroups? Read uk.net.news.announce!

"Barry Salter"  wrote in message
news:as3ug19g1u7ii5bf9r4l4pq55qeq4vtkmt@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:13:14 +0000 (UTC), "Peter Masson"
>  wrote:
>
> >One situation where a Travelcard season plus an ordinary season might be
> >relevant is for a passenger whose commuter journey was across London,
e.g.
> >Dartford to Slough, but who also needed to travel within Greater London.
> >
> >A Dartford to Slough season would only allow LUL for the transfer between
> >London termini (or other interchange stations), and wouldn't allow
> >occasional journeys on London buses, out to Croydon, on DLR, etc.
>
> In such a case (we had a request for a quote for a Leicester to Epsom
> season whilst I was at St Pancras), I would generally expect the quoted
> fare to be calculated as Dartford to All Zones + Slough to All Zones -
> All Zones, with the ticket issued with a route of "Zone R1256 Zones",
> given the only option for a "cross-London" transfer from outside the
> zones is to issue an <x> to All Zones ticket.
>

This doesn't feel right - it would mean that the Dartford to Slough ticket
is very much more expensive than a Crayford to Slough (which would be a
Slough to All Zones), and which would in fact permit travel to Dartford
station on the 96 bus from Crayford.

Even a Dartford to All Zones plus a London Terminals to Slough would seem to
allow the full range of travel opportunities without the need to change
ticket while on a train.

Peter

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:45:16 GMT, "Amos E Wolfe"
 wrote:


>If you hold a zones 1-6 day travelcard, it is possible to buy a single from 
>"Boundary Zone 6" to your destination. The second ticket is not technically 
>a "zonal ticket" but refers to several distinct points depending on the 
>route. For example from Boundary zone 6 to Milton Keynes, the "boundary 
>point" is Hatch End station, but the train is not required to call there.


In the outward direction, the ticket is issued from "Boundary Zone N"
and not from (for example) Hatch End.  There are a number of
situations where that boundary point might not be a single one, though
not knowing the South Eastern and South Central lines (where I'd
expect is the likely place for this) I can't name places.

I see the point (!) that these are point-to-point tickets in a way -
but it is a little complicated.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

DERWENT Re: Allowed to combine season tickets?
 Fri, 26 Aug 2005 07:22:36 GMT, wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
Williams) 


>On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:27:56 GMT, "Amos E Wolfe"
> wrote:
>
>>Basically the "train must stop" rule does not apply if one ticket is a zonal 
>>ticket (i.e. travelcard) or season ticket, so having a travelcard and a 
>>season ticket fulfils this requirement
>
>I thought both had to be zonal?  (presumably to allow the use of
>Boundary Zone tickets with Travelcards)
>


There are no Bouandry Zone X season tickets available, you have to
have a point to point from the last station in the zone. Or at least
this is what Norwood Junction incisted when I tried to buy an add on
season to my Travelcard.


PRAR
-- 
<http://www.i.am/prar/> and <http://prar.fotopic.net/>
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Please reply to the newsgroup. That is why it exists.
NB Anti-spam measures in force
 - If you must email me use the Reply to address and not prar@deadspam.com

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:37:39 +0100, PRAR  wrote:


>There are no Bouandry Zone X season tickets available, you have to
>have a point to point from the last station in the zone. Or at least
>this is what Norwood Junction incisted when I tried to buy an add on
>season to my Travelcard.


The "zonal" issue is distinct from the season ticket one.  If both
tickets are zonal, season or otherwise, they can be combined on a
non-stop train.

The trouble is, there is very little in the way of definition of what
a zonal ticket is.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:45:16 GMT, "Amos E Wolfe"
 wrote:


>If you hold a zones 1-6 day travelcard, it is possible to buy a single from 
>"Boundary Zone 6" to your destination. The second ticket is not technically 
>a "zonal ticket" but refers to several distinct points depending on the 
>route. For example from Boundary zone 6 to Milton Keynes, the "boundary 
>point" is Hatch End station, but the train is not required to call there.


Surely the boundary point is a point on the track somewhere between
Hatch End and Carpenders Park?

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:03:20 +0000 (UTC), "Peter Masson"
 wrote:


>This doesn't feel right - it would mean that the Dartford to Slough ticket
>is very much more expensive than a Crayford to Slough (which would be a
>Slough to All Zones), and which would in fact permit travel to Dartford
>station on the 96 bus from Crayford.


Whilst it may not feel right, that's how the team at Midland House
worked out the Leicester - Epsom example that I gave.


>Even a Dartford to All Zones plus a London Terminals to Slough would seem to
>allow the full range of travel opportunities without the need to change
>ticket while on a train.


Let's just work this one through with the four different combinations:

Dartford - All Zones Annual: 1840.00
     London - Slough Annual: 1780.00
                             --------
                      Total: 3620.00
                             ========

   Dartford - London Annual: 1320.00
  Slough - All Zones Annual: 2156.00
                             --------
                      Total: 3476.00
                             ========

   Dartford - London Annual: 1320.00
     London - Slough Annual: 1780.00
           All Zones Annual: 1580.00
                             --------
                      Total: 4680.00
                             ========

Dartford - All Zones Annual: 1840.00
  Slough - All Zones Annual: 2156.00
                             --------
                  Sub-Total: 3996.00
           All Zones Annual: 1580.00
                             --------
                      Total: 2416.00
                             ========

So, as we can see, the option that feels "wrong" would actually be the
cheapest in this example.

Cheers,

Barry

-- 
Barry Salter, barry at southie dot me dot uk
Read uk.* newsgroups? Read uk.net.news.announce!

"Barry Salter"  wrote in message
news:kfc0h1lfrl01a8tig7cuobvjur78aehoio@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:03:20 +0000 (UTC), "Peter Masson"
>  wrote:
>
> >This doesn't feel right - it would mean that the Dartford to Slough
ticket
> >is very much more expensive than a Crayford to Slough (which would be a
> >Slough to All Zones), and which would in fact permit travel to Dartford
> >station on the 96 bus from Crayford.
>
> Whilst it may not feel right, that's how the team at Midland House
> worked out the Leicester - Epsom example that I gave.
>
> >Even a Dartford to All Zones plus a London Terminals to Slough would seem
to
> >allow the full range of travel opportunities without the need to change
> >ticket while on a train.
>
> Let's just work this one through with the four different combinations:
>
> Dartford - All Zones Annual: 1840.00
>      London - Slough Annual: 1780.00
>                              --------
>                       Total: 3620.00
>                              ========
>
>    Dartford - London Annual: 1320.00
>   Slough - All Zones Annual: 2156.00
>                              --------
>                       Total: 3476.00
>                              ========
>
>    Dartford - London Annual: 1320.00
>      London - Slough Annual: 1780.00
>            All Zones Annual: 1580.00
>                              --------
>                       Total: 4680.00
>                              ========
>
> Dartford - All Zones Annual: 1840.00
>   Slough - All Zones Annual: 2156.00
>                              --------
>                   Sub-Total: 3996.00
>            All Zones Annual: 1580.00
>                              --------
>                       Total: 2416.00
>                              ========
>
> So, as we can see, the option that feels "wrong" would actually be the
> cheapest in this example.
>

Thanks for clarifying that - I had not appreciated the important final
subtraction from your previous post, probably because the way it was
displayed on my newsreader (at the end of a line) led me to misread your
minus sign as a mere dash.

Peter

> Stevenage - Hadley Wood         142.50
> Travelcard - All Zones          151.70
> Total                           294.20
>
> Stevenage - R1256               311.10


You could drop WAGN an email but when I asked the same question (to save 
412/PA on one from Potters Bar in a similar way) they said "I would confirm 
that under section 17.3 of the National Conditions of Carriage, the 
combination of tickets which you would wish to purchase is, indeed, allowed, 
and would cover the journey being undertaken." and that was for a station 
that some of my trains do not stop at. I have not yet had the pleasure of 
being gripped on a fast train, though the other day I did get gripped on the 
approach to Finsbury Park going north, flashed the Oyster 1/2 and he asked 
where I was going, told him, he said "not valid to there", flashed the 
season and he walked off contented with this combination.

I imagine it's because both TfL and NR issue "seasons" but the definition in 
section 17.3 only applies to NR seasons.

I checked each zonal crossing and found Oakleigh Park and a Z1-4 to be the 
cheapest whilst still giving some zonal flexibility. Probably like most 
commuters I use central london zones 1/2 a lot on trains and buses but 
hardly ever outside those, unless the trains are down, in which case the 
tube accept train seasons in any case.

I can't explain why you can purchase what seems to be an identical ticket, 
albeit on two pieces of paper (or one paper, one Oyster), which still saves 
money. That's just not right.

Cheers,
Dave

In message , at
11:12:20 on Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Alan J. Flavell 
remarked:

>A London season travelcard *is* a season ticket for this purpose, as
>has been cited here numerous times before; it is *not* excluded in the
>way that PTE-issued season tickets are excluded elsewhere.


Well, I believed you for a minute there; but what do you say to the most
recent posting in the thread:

In message <43136c52$0$13703$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>, at
21:13:12 on Mon, 29 Aug 2005, Dave Plumb  remarked:

        You could drop WAGN an email but when I asked the same question
        (to save 412/PA on one from Potters Bar in a similar way) they
        said "I would confirm that under section 17.3 of the National
        Conditions of Carriage, the combination of tickets which you
        would wish to purchase is, indeed, allowed, and would cover the
        journey being undertaken."

-- 
Roland Perry

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005, Roland Perry wrote:


> In message , at
> 11:12:20 on Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Alan J. Flavell 
> remarked:
> >A London season travelcard *is* a season ticket for this purpose, as
> >has been cited here numerous times before; it is *not* excluded in the
> >way that PTE-issued season tickets are excluded elsewhere.
> 
> Well, I believed you for a minute there;


NFM section K part 2 may be relevant - or at least of interest:
http://atoc.org/traveltrade/manuals/nfm/sectionk-part2.pdf  [1]

You'll note that it goes into detail about the (sometimes subtly 
different) treatment of period travelcards (meaning 7-day and more), 
and of other kinds (day, 3-day, family etc.) of travelcard.


> but what do you say to the most recent posting in the thread:
> 
> In message <43136c52$0$13703$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>, at
> 21:13:12 on Mon, 29 Aug 2005, Dave Plumb  remarked:
> 
>         You could drop WAGN an email but when I asked the same question
>         (to save 412/PA on one from Potters Bar in a similar way) they
>         said "I would confirm that under section 17.3 of the National
>         Conditions of Carriage, the combination of tickets which you
>         would wish to purchase is, indeed, allowed, and would cover the
>         journey being undertaken."


Well, if it was me, I'd carefully retain the original of that letter, 
and carry a copy of it for any sceptical gripper, since I can't see 
exactly how they've come to that conclusion.

I felt confident that I was only repeating what I'd seen quoted 
numerous times here before (ho hum, it's all rather confusing).

So I can't see how they make it out that NCoC "17.3" (that would be 
17(c) in the online version, I deduce) fits, *unless*, in considering 
the proposed combination, they rate the rail season ticket element as 
the "season ticket", and the London season travelcard element as the 
ticket which "is/are not".

best

[1] Is there any kind of usable index to the online NFM?  I've been 
resorting to manually composing the sectionX-partN.pdf part of the 
URL, for various values of X and N, to see what I get, and then 
following any likely looking cross-references.

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:39:58 +0100, "Alan J. Flavell"
 wrote:


>[1] Is there any kind of usable index to the online NFM?  I've been 
>resorting to manually composing the sectionX-partN.pdf part of the 
>URL, for various values of X and N, to see what I get, and then 
>following any likely looking cross-references.


http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/manuals.htm

In message , at
10:39:58 on Tue, 30 Aug 2005, Alan J. Flavell 
remarked:

>On Tue, 30 Aug 2005, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> In message , at
>> 11:12:20 on Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Alan J. Flavell 
>> remarked:
>> >A London season travelcard *is* a season ticket for this purpose, as
>> >has been cited here numerous times before; it is *not* excluded in the
>> >way that PTE-issued season tickets are excluded elsewhere.
>>
>> Well, I believed you for a minute there;
>
>NFM section K part 2 may be relevant - or at least of interest:
>http://atoc.org/traveltrade/manuals/nfm/sectionk-part2.pdf  [1]
>
>You'll note that it goes into detail about the (sometimes subtly
>different) treatment of period travelcards (meaning 7-day and more),
>and of other kinds (day, 3-day, family etc.) of travelcard.


But I don't think any of it sheds any light (either way) on the
combination of a NR season and a Travelcard "season".

However, I note the following:

        Day Travelcards cannot be used in combination with other tickets
        for journeys which extend beyond the Travelcards area boundary
        where travel is on the services of Train Companies that do not
        operate services with calling points within the Travelcard area.
        These are:
        First Great Western
        Gatwick Express
        GNER
        Midland Mainline
        Virgin Trains

Which seems to me to be harking back to the old NR rule that you could
combine tickets (any ticket, not just seasons) as long as any of the
ToCs trains (not just the one you caught) stopped at the combining
station.

However, the restriction doesn't apply to "season" Travelcards.


>> but what do you say to the most recent posting in the thread:
>>
>> In message <43136c52$0$13703$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>, at
>> 21:13:12 on Mon, 29 Aug 2005, Dave Plumb  remarked:
>>
>>         You could drop WAGN an email but when I asked the same question
>>         (to save 412/PA on one from Potters Bar in a similar way) they
>>         said "I would confirm that under section 17.3 of the National
>>         Conditions of Carriage, the combination of tickets which you
>>         would wish to purchase is, indeed, allowed, and would cover the
>>         journey being undertaken."
>
>Well, if it was me, I'd carefully retain the original of that letter,
>and carry a copy of it for any sceptical gripper, since I can't see
>exactly how they've come to that conclusion.
>
>I felt confident that I was only repeating what I'd seen quoted
>numerous times here before (ho hum, it's all rather confusing).
>
>So I can't see how they make it out that NCoC "17.3" (that would be
>17(c) in the online version, I deduce) fits, *unless*, in considering
>the proposed combination, they rate the rail season ticket element as
>the "season ticket", and the London season travelcard element as the
>ticket which "is/are not".


Exactly, and this is the *question*. Is a Travelcard a Season Ticket
under these rules?

-- 
Roland Perry

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005, asdf wrote:


> http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/manuals.htm


Bookmarked, thanks.

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:22:57 +0100, Roland Perry 
wrote:


>        Day Travelcards cannot be used in combination with other tickets
>        for journeys which extend beyond the Travelcards area boundary
>        where travel is on the services of Train Companies that do not
>        operate services with calling points within the Travelcard area.
>        These are:

<snip>

>        Virgin Trains


....which is factually incorrect.  West Coast, perhaps, but XC serve
Kenny O and East Croydon, albeit infrequently.  Or are Travelcards not
permitted for use on these trains between these stations?

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Neil Williams wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:22:57 +0100, Roland Perry 
> wrote:
>
> > Day Travelcards cannot be used in combination with other tickets
> > for journeys which extend beyond the Travelcards area boundary
> > where travel is on the services of Train Companies that do not
> > operate services with calling points within the Travelcard area.
> > These are:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Virgin Trains
>
> ...which is factually incorrect.  West Coast, perhaps, but XC serve
> Kenny O and East Croydon, albeit infrequently.  Or are Travelcards not
> permitted for use on these trains between these stations?


Both of those stations are within the Travelcard area boundary so the
initial paragraph isn't relevant to journeys between them.

Dave

On 31 Aug 2005 13:59:29 -0700, "Dave Liney" 
wrote:


>Both of those stations are within the Travelcard area boundary so the
>initial paragraph isn't relevant to journeys between them.


That wasn't the point.  I was questioning the incorrect statement (in
the rules) that Virgin Trains do not operate any services with more
than one calling point in the Travelcard area.  They do - two XCs a
day (or something like that).

I then went on to ask if this was just a find and replace omission
(i.e. it used to say "West Coast" and this was changed to "Virgin
Trains" as opposed to "Virgin West Coast" in error), or whether VT
(XC) were really not accepting BZ tickets even though they do stop
within the Zones.

In any case, I don't see why there should be a restriction on these
out-boundary tickets when there isn't one on remote-issued
out-boundary Travelcards, other than that someone can't be bothered
accounting for both properly.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Neil Williams wrote:

> On 31 Aug 2005 13:59:29 -0700, "Dave Liney" 
> wrote:
>
> >Both of those stations are within the Travelcard area boundary so the
> >initial paragraph isn't relevant to journeys between them.
>
> I then went on to ask if this was just a find and replace omission
> (i.e. it used to say "West Coast" and this was changed to "Virgin
> Trains" as opposed to "Virgin West Coast" in error), or whether VT
> (XC) were really not accepting BZ tickets even though they do stop
> within the Zones.


That may have been what you meant to ask but you what you typed was "Or
are Travelcards not permitted for use on these trains between these
stations?" which doesn't mention BZ tickets at all. Travelcards are
valid for travel on all trains between those two stations.


> In any case, I don't see why there should be a restriction on these
> out-boundary tickets when there isn't one on remote-issued
> out-boundary Travelcards, other than that someone can't be bothered
> accounting for both properly.


The restriction is because the TOCs concerned get no cut of the zonal
Travelcard pot and (quite reasonably) don't want to accept them as
"part-payment" towards journeys on their trains.

I don't know what you mean by "remote-issued out-boundary Travelcards".

Dave

On 1 Sep 2005 12:21:58 -0700, "Dave Liney" 
wrote:


>The restriction is because the TOCs concerned get no cut of the zonal
>Travelcard pot and (quite reasonably) don't want to accept them as
>"part-payment" towards journeys on their trains.
>
>I don't know what you mean by "remote-issued out-boundary Travelcards".


I think he means, for example, a Reading to All Zones one day
Travelcard bought at Reading. (I believe these are supposed to be
exactly the same price as an all zones ODTC plus a return from BZ6 to
Reading.)

Is such a ticket valid on FGW into London, or must one travel on a
FGWL train? If the former, do FGW get a cut of the "Travelcard" part
of the ticket?

On 1 Sep 2005 12:21:58 -0700, "Dave Liney" 
wrote:


>That may have been what you meant to ask but you what you typed was "Or
>are Travelcards not permitted for use on these trains between these
>stations?" which doesn't mention BZ tickets at all. Travelcards are
>valid for travel on all trains between those two stations.


That was exactly what I meant to ask - I was wondering if VT (XC) were
in some way exempt from the Travelcard system in its entirety that
would result in the incorrect statement I challenged.

I'm suspecting that the actual situation is that Boundary Zone tickets
are not valid on Virgin West Coast, but *are* valid on Virgin
CrossCountry, and that the rule is stated incorrectly, possibly as a
result of VT's recent removal of these sub-brands from all its
publicity.


>The restriction is because the TOCs concerned get no cut of the zonal
>Travelcard pot and (quite reasonably) don't want to accept them as
>"part-payment" towards journeys on their trains.
>
>I don't know what you mean by "remote-issued out-boundary Travelcards".


Those issued from a station outside the Zones *into* London, e.g. from
Milton Keynes Central to R1256.  These are usually at roughly the same
price as a ODTC plus the Boundary Zone to destination tickets, so
arguably should have similar validity.

That said, those travelling around London are probably lucky that
Boundary Zone tickets and the likes exist at all - they don't for
similar ticketing in the regional PTEs; more is the pity.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 20:31:57 +0100, asdf <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:


>Is such a ticket valid on FGW into London, or must one travel on a
>FGWL train?


They are, unless routed otherwise, valid on fGW.

It is interesting that Anglia InterCity has been removed from the BZ
ticket list now it's all "one" (sorry).  I suspect that fGW(L) will
follow when they become a single franchise.

I don't know if that has always been the case, or if they were ever
NSE-only tickets?  Or am I confusing this with Network Cards, which
I'm sure I recall weren't valid on ICs in the past?


> If the former, do FGW get a cut of the "Travelcard" part
>of the ticket?


I presume so, yes.  There are two such Travelcards from Milton Keynes
Central - one is at a lower price and is Silverlink only as far as
BZ6, while the other is valid on VT services.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Neil Williams wrote:


> That said, those travelling around London are probably lucky that
> Boundary Zone tickets and the likes exist at all - they don't for
> similar ticketing in the regional PTEs; more is the pity.


Indeed.  A colleague was complaining that he could go relatively 
cheaply using SPT offers to/from Ayr - or even Barrhill for anyone who 
was that way inclined; but thereafter the fares shot up, and, as he 
needed to go to/from Stranraer, he got no benefit.  I tried a few 
variations, but indeed there seemed no way (for his travel plan, 
anyway) of combining SPT offers with anything else to save on the end 
to end fare.  (On a walk-up basis, anyway, which circumstances were 
forcing on him).

While looking into this, however, he spotted what he thought was a 
most unlikely TOC for one of the connections to Stanraer.  But HAFAS 
revealed the explanation for the surprise: the train in question 
started in Newcastle (and HAFAS recommended changing at Troon rather 
than Ayr !).

 | Newcastle                         |           |      17:10|          
 | Gateshead Metro Cen.              |      17:17|      17:17|          
 | Wylam                             |      17:25|      17:26|          
 | Prudhoe                           |      17:29|      17:29|          
 | Hexham                            |      17:41|      17:42|          
 | Haydon Bridge                     |      17:51|      17:51|          
 | Bardon Mill                       |      17:57|      17:58|          
 | Haltwhistle                       |      18:05|      18:05|          
 | Brampton (Cumbria)                |      18:20|      18:20|          
 | Wetheral                          |      18:29|      18:29|          
 | Carlisle                          |      18:38|      18:53|          
 | Gretna Green                      |      19:04|      19:04|          
 | Annan                             |      19:12|      19:12|          
 | Dumfries                          |      19:28|      19:29|          
 | Sanquhar                          |      19:55|      19:55|          
 | Kirkconnel                        |      20:00|      20:00|          
 | New Cumnock                       |      20:09|      20:09|          
 | Auchinleck                        |      20:17|      20:17|          
 | Kilmarnock                        |      20:36|      20:37|          
 | Troon                             |      20:50|      20:50|          
 | Ayr                               |      20:59|      21:01|          
 | Maybole                           |      21:12|      21:12|          
 | Girvan                            |      21:26|      21:27|          
 | Barrhill                          |      21:46|      21:46|          
 | Stranraer Harbour                 |      22:22|           |          

"We live and learn", as they say.