Knowing how awkward the revenue staff can be how can I check whether I
have the right ticket. Following 7/7 I am travelling from Watford to
Vauxhall via Clapham Junc on a weekly all zone travel card. Watford
Junc assured me there was little difference with a weekly via
Kensington but it is usefull for the odd lunch time journey.
As next Monday is a bank holiday I got a daily Vauxhall-Watford  return
at Vauxhall on Monday for Tuesday cost £10.90.
When I finished my journey at Watford on Tuesday I bought my ticket for
Wednesday then all hell was let lose.
First I am charged a higher price but I said that it was £10.90. After
a while the booking office sold me ticket for £10.90 but this morning
it wouldn't work as it was a ticket for Tuesday.
Back to the booking office and when get into aguement about whether it
is £10.90 or £13.40. As my train is soon going to leave I finish up
saying sell me a ticket to Vauxhall via Kensington, price £13.40.
Do the refund on the previous ticket and the booking clerk points out
that it was a Watford to London teminals only anyway.
When I get my bloody Watford to Vauxhall ticket it is a Watford to U12
which presumabley is via the Underground.
What the hell can I do, except buy my ticket at Vauxhall as they seem
to know what they are doing, to get the ticket that I want.

Kevin

kajr@mwfree.net wrote:

> Knowing how awkward the revenue staff can be how can I check whether I
> have the right ticket. Following 7/7 I am travelling from Watford to
> Vauxhall via Clapham Junc on a weekly all zone travel card. Watford
> Junc assured me there was little difference with a weekly via
> Kensington but it is usefull for the odd lunch time journey.
> As next Monday is a bank holiday I got a daily Vauxhall-Watford  return
> at Vauxhall on Monday for Tuesday cost £10.90.


I presume you are suggesting that it's not worth getting a weekly
ticket for just 4 days.  I would have thought the break even point
would have made it worth while to have the weekly ticket anyway.  Even
if it where just a little more expensive, it might still be worth it
for the convenience factor.  You state that you got a Vauxhall-Watford
return on monday for Tuesday.  I would have thought you would have
needed a Watford Vauxhall return.  Which may or may not be a different
price.  Either way, if the ticket you got was for outward travel from
Vauxhall and return to Vauxhall then your ticket for Tuesday wasn't
valid.



> When I finished my journey at Watford on Tuesday I bought my ticket for
> Wednesday then all hell was let lose.
> First I am charged a higher price but I said that it was £10.90. After
> a while the booking office sold me ticket for £10.90 but this morning
> it wouldn't work as it was a ticket for Tuesday.
> Back to the booking office and when get into aguement about whether it
> is £10.90 or £13.40. As my train is soon going to leave I finish up
> saying sell me a ticket to Vauxhall via Kensington, price £13.40.
> Do the refund on the previous ticket and the booking clerk points out
> that it was a Watford to London teminals only anyway.
> When I get my bloody Watford to Vauxhall ticket it is a Watford to U12
> which presumabley is via the Underground.
> What the hell can I do, except buy my ticket at Vauxhall as they seem
> to know what they are doing, to get the ticket that I want.


Check qjump or thetrainline and see what it thinks are the valid
tickets & prices.  BTW Vauxhall *seem* to have sold you the ticket you
want - £10.90 as opposed to the ticket you need - Watford to Vauxhall
return.

Hmm.....
Having just done that, I found some interesting anomolies sorry,
features :=))

Off peak Cheap day return in either direction is shown as 10.80 however
for the same price from Watford you can get an off peak travel card.

standard day return FROM Vauxhall £14.90

standard day return FROM Watford £12.80

Peak Travelcard FROM Watford is £14.90

Qjump gave Watford - Euston - Vauxhall as the route for all the
journeys I checked.

In giving the above info, I am not seeking to defend the pricing
structure/mess, just trying to interpret it!

How much is your weekly season/travelcard (and which is it)?

zikkimalambo@connectfree.co.uk wrote:

> kajr@mwfree.net wrote:
> > Knowing how awkward the revenue staff can be how can I check whether I
> > have the right ticket. Following 7/7 I am travelling from Watford to
> > Vauxhall via Clapham Junc on a weekly all zone travel card. Watford
> > Junc assured me there was little difference with a weekly via
> > Kensington but it is usefull for the odd lunch time journey.
> > As next Monday is a bank holiday I got a daily Vauxhall-Watford  return
> > at Vauxhall on Monday for Tuesday cost £10.90.
>
> I presume you are suggesting that it's not worth getting a weekly
> ticket for just 4 days.  I would have thought the break even point
> would have made it worth while to have the weekly ticket anyway.  Even
> if it where just a little more expensive, it might still be worth it
> for the convenience factor.  You state that you got a Vauxhall-Watford
> return on monday for Tuesday.  I would have thought you would have
> needed a Watford Vauxhall return.  Which may or may not be a different
> price.  Either way, if the ticket you got was for outward travel from
> Vauxhall and return to Vauxhall then your ticket for Tuesday wasn't
> valid.
>
>
> > When I finished my journey at Watford on Tuesday I bought my ticket for
> > Wednesday then all hell was let lose.
> > First I am charged a higher price but I said that it was £10.90. After
> > a while the booking office sold me ticket for £10.90 but this morning
> > it wouldn't work as it was a ticket for Tuesday.
> > Back to the booking office and when get into aguement about whether it
> > is £10.90 or £13.40. As my train is soon going to leave I finish up
> > saying sell me a ticket to Vauxhall via Kensington, price £13.40.
> > Do the refund on the previous ticket and the booking clerk points out
> > that it was a Watford to London teminals only anyway.
> > When I get my bloody Watford to Vauxhall ticket it is a Watford to U12
> > which presumabley is via the Underground.
> > What the hell can I do, except buy my ticket at Vauxhall as they seem
> > to know what they are doing, to get the ticket that I want.
>
> Check qjump or thetrainline and see what it thinks are the valid
> tickets & prices.  BTW Vauxhall *seem* to have sold you the ticket you
> want - £10.90 as opposed to the ticket you need - Watford to Vauxhall
> return.
>
> Hmm.....
> Having just done that, I found some interesting anomolies sorry,
> features :=))
>
> Off peak Cheap day return in either direction is shown as 10.80 however
> for the same price from Watford you can get an off peak travel card.
>
> standard day return FROM Vauxhall £14.90
>
> standard day return FROM Watford £12.80
>
> Peak Travelcard FROM Watford is £14.90
>
> Qjump gave Watford - Euston - Vauxhall as the route for all the
> journeys I checked.
>
> In giving the above info, I am not seeking to defend the pricing
> structure/mess, just trying to interpret it!
>
> How much is your weekly season/travelcard (and which is it)?

I was assuming that the £10.90 price going Vauxhall-Watford-Vauxhall
(but actually travelling Watford-Vauxhall-Watford) was the correct fare
but doesn't explain why Watford sold me a Watford to U12 instead of
Watford to Vauxhall via Clapham which is what I asked for.
I will find out tonight when I buy tomorrows ticket.

Kevin

> > How much is your weekly season/travelcard (and which is it)?
> I was assuming that the £10.90 price going Vauxhall-Watford-Vauxhall
> (but actually travelling Watford-Vauxhall-Watford) was the correct fare
> but doesn't explain why Watford sold me a Watford to U12 instead of
> Watford to Vauxhall via Clapham which is what I asked for.
> I will find out tonight when I buy tomorrows ticket.


Don't know how much you hang around here, or how much you know about
Railway travel, but my point in my earlier post was that a
Vauxhall - Watford - Vauxhall ticket is not in any way valid for travel
Watford - Vauxhall - Watford.  Some grippers/RPIs may not know this, or
may not make the necessary checks (or may not care!) but if you get one
who's clued up you may find youself having to buy another ticket.

Assuming you were to manage to get 4 x CDRs, would this be cheaper than
a weekly season/travelcard?

zikkimalambo@connectfree.co.uk wrote:

> > > How much is your weekly season/travelcard (and which is it)?
> > I was assuming that the £10.90 price going Vauxhall-Watford-Vauxhall
> > (but actually travelling Watford-Vauxhall-Watford) was the correct fare
> > but doesn't explain why Watford sold me a Watford to U12 instead of
> > Watford to Vauxhall via Clapham which is what I asked for.
> > I will find out tonight when I buy tomorrows ticket.
>
> Don't know how much you hang around here, or how much you know about
> Railway travel, but my point in my earlier post was that a
> Vauxhall - Watford - Vauxhall ticket is not in any way valid for travel
> Watford - Vauxhall - Watford.  Some grippers/RPIs may not know this, or
> may not make the necessary checks (or may not care!) but if you get one
> who's clued up you may find youself having to buy another ticket.
>
> Assuming you were to manage to get 4 x CDRs, would this be cheaper than
> a weekly season/travelcard?


How can that be? In fact the ticket that I bought at Vauxhall yesterday
(for today's travel) actually says London Terminals which I didn't
realise, so the one I was given at Watford ( except that it was dated
incorrectly ) was in fact the right ticket.
Since whether I buy it at Watford or Vauxhall it is £10.90 does it
matter that I am using one set the wrong way round and since each leg
is a seperate ticket an inspector would never know that it was out of
sequence anyway. I would hope that they would have something more
important to worry about.

Kevin

wrote


>Since whether I buy it at Watford or Vauxhall it is 10.90 does it
>matter that I am using one set the wrong way round and since each leg
>is a seperate ticket an inspector would never know that it was out of
>sequence anyway. I would hope that they would have something more
>important to worry about.


They can demand to see the unused return part when you show the outward part
of a return ticket, though in practice this only seems to be demanded when
the outward part of an SOS or FOS is shown later than the date of issue (the
assumption being that the outward part hadn't been gripped, the return part
had been used, and the passenger was attempting to reuse the outward part).
However, the condition that the outward part of a return ticket is only
valid if the unused return part is also held does not appear to exist in any
publication readily available to a passenger.

Peter

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, Peter Masson wrote:


> However, the condition that the outward part of a return ticket is 
> only valid if the unused return part is also held does not appear to 
> exist in any publication readily available to a passenger.


I note a tendency to print "TWO PART TICKET" on the two parts, which 
presumably is an attempt to show that it's not a complete ticket 
unless both parts are to hand.  (Leaving it an open question if the 
outward part has been collected, and only the return portion remains 
in the passenger's possession).

Peter Masson wrote:

>  wrote
>
> >Since whether I buy it at Watford or Vauxhall it is £10.90 does it
> >matter that I am using one set the wrong way round and since each leg
> >is a seperate ticket an inspector would never know that it was out of
> >sequence anyway. I would hope that they would have something more
> >important to worry about.
>
> They can demand to see the unused return part when you show the outward part
> of a return ticket, though in practice this only seems to be demanded when
> the outward part of an SOS or FOS is shown later than the date of issue (the
> assumption being that the outward part hadn't been gripped, the return part
> had been used, and the passenger was attempting to reuse the outward part).
> However, the condition that the outward part of a return ticket is only
> valid if the unused return part is also held does not appear to exist in any
> publication readily available to a passenger.
>
> Peter


Also, were the op to be travelling in peak time, the fares would be
(from qjump)

standard day return FROM Vauxhall £14.90

standard day return FROM Watford £12.80

Therefore a gripper might want to make sure that were A.N.Other
travelling in the morning rush hour to Watford with a return bought at
Watford was indeed an early bird on his way home, rather than someone
trying to save a few quid.

In the OPs case, he could still get a gripper who has had a bad day
giving him grief for an invalid ticket.  As the price is the same in
this case, I would think it worth his while to get the right ticket
even if he buys it at Vauxhall.

Then again, qjump seemed to suggest that he could get an off peak
Travelcard for the same price from Watford surely that would be the
thing to go for in this case.  Does anyone (the OP?) know the costs of
the following.......

7 day Travelcard which covers Watford to Vauxhall.

1 Day Travelcard bought in London which covers the above.

I had a look at the TFL website, but found it about as user friendly as
a cornered rat!  However, if a 7 Day Travelcard from zone A till Zone 1
would cover it, it still seems that this would be the way for the op to
go even if only travelling for 4 days.  Or would this not be valid on
the route he wants to travel.

I was hopeing some of the more knowedgeable uk.railways regulars would
have contributed to this thread, perhaps they'll come in now.

Peter Masson wrote:


>
> They can demand to see the unused return part when you show the outward part
> of a return ticket, though in practice this only seems to be demanded when
> the outward part of an SOS or FOS is shown later than the date of issue (the
> assumption being that the outward part hadn't been gripped, the return part
> had been used, and the passenger was attempting to reuse the outward part).
> However, the condition that the outward part of a return ticket is only
> valid if the unused return part is also held does not appear to exist in any
> publication readily available to a passenger.
>
> Peter

It isn't obvious to me what determines whether a ticket is the inbound
or outbound portion.

Kevin

The unused London to Watford ticket says 2-Part Ticket but since the
Watford to London ticket was eaten by the gates at Vauxhall how can I
present both halves, as you said.

Kevin

zikkimalambo@connectfree.co.uk wrote:

>
> Also, were the op to be travelling in peak time, the fares would be
> (from qjump)
>
> standard day return FROM Vauxhall £14.90
>
> standard day return FROM Watford £12.80
>
> Therefore a gripper might want to make sure that were A.N.Other
> travelling in the morning rush hour to Watford with a return bought at
> Watford was indeed an early bird on his way home, rather than someone
> trying to save a few quid.
>
> In the OPs case, he could still get a gripper who has had a bad day
> giving him grief for an invalid ticket.  As the price is the same in
> this case, I would think it worth his while to get the right ticket
> even if he buys it at Vauxhall.
>
> Then again, qjump seemed to suggest that he could get an off peak
> Travelcard for the same price from Watford surely that would be the
> thing to go for in this case.  Does anyone (the OP?) know the costs of
> the following.......
>
> 7 day Travelcard which covers Watford to Vauxhall.
>
> 1 Day Travelcard bought in London which covers the above.
>
> I had a look at the TFL website, but found it about as user friendly as
> a cornered rat!  However, if a 7 Day Travelcard from zone A till Zone 1
> would cover it, it still seems that this would be the way for the op to
> go even if only travelling for 4 days.  Or would this not be valid on
> the route he wants to travel.
>
> I was hopeing some of the more knowedgeable uk.railways regulars would
> have contributed to this thread, perhaps they'll come in now.

Each time I have purchased a ticket I have specified that I am
travelling in the morning peak, at Vauxhall they have given me a ticket
for £10.90 without question.
At Watford they seem to have more of a problem knowing which is the
correct ticket to issue. It is something of a concern that Silverlink
don't seem to know what tickets to issue for trains that actually
depart from their station. I hope that somebody lets them know before
the Croxley rail link is built or there will be complete chaos. Come to
think of it, considering the chaos there is at Watford most mornings, I
hope that TfL have considered the extra demand and capacity to deal
with it, some how I think not.

Kevin

On 24 Aug 2005 00:45:09 -0700, kajr@mwfree.net wrote:

[snip tale of woe]


>Do the refund on the previous ticket and the booking clerk points out
>that it was a Watford to London teminals only anyway.


Right. There seems to be a slightly odd situation here whereby
Vauxhall is a member of London Terminals according to the NFM, but is
NOT a member of the London Group in the RG.

Vauxhall has Clapham Junction as a routeing point, which passes the
fares check[1], so (using map LM) it seems that travel to Vauxhall
(but *not* Waterloo/Victoria) is permitted via Kensington Olympia on a
Watford Jn - London Terminals ticket.

Now, it's not at all obvious that a ticket from Watford Jn to London
Terminals is anything other than a ticket to Euston, so it's
unsurprising that when you asked for a ticket to Vauxhall, you got a
ticket to U12 which includes travel to Queens Park or Euston plus an
Underground journey.

I think the easiest solution is just to ask for a ticket to London
Terminals, but you might be called upon to justify its validity to
on-train staff...


[1] Or at least it does if you compare the Any Permitted
WatfordJ-London ticket with the the route Kensington Olympia
WatfordJ-ClaphamJ one, which I assume is correct, but not if you
compare it with the Any Permitted one. Then again, aren't the fares
comparisons supposed to be made using some particular old version of
the fares manual, rather than current fares?

On 25 Aug 2005 02:57:25 -0700, kajr@mwfree.net wrote:


>> They can demand to see the unused return part when you show the outward part
>> of a return ticket,
>>
>It isn't obvious to me what determines whether a ticket is the inbound
>or outbound portion.


Look in the top-right corner :)

On 25 Aug 2005 03:00:13 -0700, kajr@mwfree.net wrote:


>The unused London to Watford ticket says 2-Part Ticket but since the
>Watford to London ticket was eaten by the gates at Vauxhall how can I
>present both halves, as you said.


You only "need" to present the (unused) return half when using the
outward half. When using the return half, you don't need the outward
half at all (although as Peter Masson mentioned, it seems there is no
publication intended for passengers that tells you this).

On 25 Aug 2005 02:03:57 -0700, zikkimalambo@connectfree.co.uk wrote:


>Also, were the op to be travelling in peak time, the fares would be
>(from qjump)
>
>standard day return FROM Vauxhall 14.90
>
>standard day return FROM Watford 12.80


The difference seems to be a result of QJump calculating the through
train-tube fare differently in each direction, rather than any
deliberate asymmetry in the fares manual.


>Does anyone (the OP?) know the costs of the following.......
>
>7 day Travelcard which covers Watford to Vauxhall.


57.50, I think


>1 Day Travelcard bought in London which covers the above.


There isn't one. If you asked for one, you would get a Z1-6 Travelcard
plus a return from Boundary Zone 6 to Watford Jn. (Which I think would
be 12.00+4.40 peak, 6.00+2.80 off-peak.)

If you asked in Watford Jn you would get a Watford Jn to Zones 1-6
Travelcard, which would be the same price (and would include one
return journey from Watford Jn to Z6, plus unlimited travel in Z1-6).


>I had a look at the TFL website, but found it about as user friendly as
>a cornered rat!  However, if a 7 Day Travelcard from zone A till Zone 1
>would cover it, it still seems that this would be the way for the op to
>go even if only travelling for 4 days.  Or would this not be valid on
>the route he wants to travel.


It wouldn't - it's only valid to Watford on the Metropolitan line.
(Perhaps when/if the Croxley Link opens, they'll add Carpenders Park -
Watford Jn to the Travelcard zones.)

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:53:08 +0100, in article
, "Alan J.
Flavell"  wrote in uk.railway: 


>I note a tendency to print "TWO PART TICKET" on the two parts, which 
>presumably is an attempt to show that it's not a complete ticket 
>unless both parts are to hand.  (Leaving it an open question if the 
>outward part has been collected, and only the return portion remains 
>in the passenger's possession).


TRIBUTE is printing that on the tickets now, along with the expiry date
of the ticket as well. Look at a Saver and you'll see "Valid From and
Valid To" as the same date on the outward half, and a date one month in
the future as the expiry date on the return half. The Ticket Examiner's
Handbook added a new rule about 2 years ago, and the restriction also
made it to the fare manuals. You'll find a similar phrase for each
walk-up ticket type now.

That rule is, to paraphrase, that the outward part is only valid if the
return part can be shown and in an unused state. I don't see it as much
of an issue, I've only had three or four people trying to re-use the
outward half of an Open return in the time I've been on the railway,
Savers on the other hand are a different case, mitigated by the fact
that the outward half is valid on the day of issue only.

I expect the rule is because of people who have asked for refunds on the
outward half of a ticket and not the return half, but I'm sure a booking
office poster will say if that's the case.

Cheers,
Chris Pemberton, Pendleton, Salford, Lancs.
-- 
This post contains my personal opinion only. If I am in a position to
speak for somebody I'll say so.

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:39:19 +0000 (UTC), in article
<dek03m$2un$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, "Peter Masson"
 wrote in uk.railway: 


>However, the condition that the outward part of a return ticket is only
>valid if the unused return part is also held does not appear to exist in any
>publication readily available to a passenger.


You can ask to see the fares manual. Every booking office has one. I
call that readily available.

Cheers,
Chris Pemberton, Pendleton, Salford, Lancs.
-- 
This post contains my personal opinion only. If I am in a position to
speak for somebody I'll say so.

>Peter Masson wrote:
>>However, the condition that the outward part of a return ticket is only
>>valid if the unused return part is also held does not appear to exist in any
>>publication readily available to a passenger.


Chris Pemberton wrote:

>You can ask to see the fares manual. Every booking office has one. I
>call that readily available.


<http://atoc.org/traveltrade/manuals/nfm/sectiona-part1.pdf>
Page 4, right-hand column, under 'Use of tickets'

Neil Sunderland
-- 
Braunton, Devon
Please observe the Reply-To address.

NP: Spin Doctors - Little Miss Can't Be Wrong (from the album 'Pocket Full of Kryptonite')

asdf wrote:

> On 25 Aug 2005 02:03:57 -0700, zikkimalambo@connectfree.co.uk wrote:
>
> >Also, were the op to be travelling in peak time, the fares would be
> >(from qjump)
> >
> >standard day return FROM Vauxhall £14.90
> >
> >standard day return FROM Watford £12.80
>
> The difference seems to be a result of QJump calculating the through
> train-tube fare differently in each direction, rather than any
> deliberate asymmetry in the fares manual.


What is the correct fare according to the fares manual?


>
> >Does anyone (the OP?) know the costs of the following.......
> >
> >7 day Travelcard which covers Watford to Vauxhall.
>
> £57.50, I think
>
> >1 Day Travelcard bought in London which covers the above.
>
> There isn't one.


Oh, my brain hurts!  If they can sell a 7 Day, why can't they sell a 1
day?



>If you asked for one, you would get a Z1-6 Travelcard
> plus a return from Boundary Zone 6 to Watford Jn. (Which I think would
> be £12.00£4.40 peak, £6.00£2.80 off-peak.)


Well perhaps *I* would, but the op doesn't seem to have.



> If you asked in Watford Jn you would get a Watford Jn to Zones 1-6
> Travelcard, which would be the same price (and would include one
> return journey from Watford Jn to Z6, plus unlimited travel in Z1-6).
>
> >I had a look at the TFL website, but found it about as user friendly as
> >a cornered rat!  However, if a 7 Day Travelcard from zone A till Zone 1
> >would cover it, it still seems that this would be the way for the op to
> >go even if only travelling for 4 days.  Or would this not be valid on
> >the route he wants to travel.
>
> It wouldn't - it's only valid to Watford on the Metropolitan line.
> (Perhaps when/if the Croxley Link opens, they'll add Carpenders Park -
> Watford Jn to the Travelcard zones.)


Having checked the zonal map, I see that Watford Jn is outside the
zones, but the op said Watford not Watford Jn.

Given this thread and the current one regarding a SDR being sold when a
CDR was requested, the railways might as well be run by Mecca or
Camelot!

zikkimalambo@connectfree.co.uk wrote:

> Having checked the zonal map, I see that Watford Jn is outside the
> zones, but the op said Watford not Watford Jn.
>

I have said Watford but mean Watford Junc. By inference services to
Clapham don't run from any other station in Watford, well not directly
anyway.

Kevin

"asdf" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote

>
> Right. There seems to be a slightly odd situation here whereby
> Vauxhall is a member of London Terminals according to the NFM, but is
> NOT a member of the London Group in the RG.
>
> Vauxhall has Clapham Junction as a routeing point, which passes the
> fares check[1], so (using map LM) it seems that travel to Vauxhall
> (but *not* Waterloo/Victoria) is permitted via Kensington Olympia on a
> Watford Jn - London Terminals ticket.
>
> Now, it's not at all obvious that a ticket from Watford Jn to London
> Terminals is anything other than a ticket to Euston, so it's
> unsurprising that when you asked for a ticket to Vauxhall, you got a
> ticket to U12 which includes travel to Queens Park or Euston plus an
> Underground journey.
>
> I think the easiest solution is just to ask for a ticket to London
> Terminals, but you might be called upon to justify its validity to
> on-train staff...
>
>
> [1] Or at least it does if you compare the Any Permitted
> WatfordJ-London ticket with the the route Kensington Olympia
> WatfordJ-ClaphamJ one, which I assume is correct, but not if you
> compare it with the Any Permitted one. Then again, aren't the fares
> comparisons supposed to be made using some particular old version of
> the fares manual, rather than current fares?


What seems to have been missed in the discussion is that the OP wants to
travel via Kensington Olympia and Clapham Junction. As Vauxhall is in both
Zones 1 and 2 he doesn't need to go into Zone 1 at all. Is there such a
thing as a ODTC (in both peak and off-peak versions) from Watford Junction
to Zones 2-6, and if so, what's the fare, and is this the ticket the OP
wants?

Peter

Alan J. Flavell wrote:


> I note a tendency to print "TWO PART TICKET" on the two parts, which 
> presumably is an attempt to show that it's not a complete ticket 
> unless both parts are to hand.  (


Nobody's yet explained to me why it needs to be in two parts.
Why not just print 'return' on the ticket?

Charlie

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, Neil Sunderland wrote:


> >Peter Masson wrote:
> >>However, the condition that the outward part of a return ticket is 
> >>only valid if the unused return part is also held does not appear 
> >>to exist in any publication readily available to a passenger.
> 
> Chris Pemberton wrote:
> >You can ask to see the fares manual.


The NCoC implies that there is no need to ask: if a ticket is subject 
to restrictive conditions, then you must be told about them at the 
time of purchase.  See the last paragraph of NCoC item 4 cited below.


> <http://atoc.org/traveltrade/manuals/nfm/sectiona-part1.pdf>
> Page 4, right-hand column, under 'Use of tickets'


But if this restriction is not made clear in the NCoC, or in a public 
document clearly cited by the NCoC, then it cannot be contractually 
binding on the passenger, IMHO.  I'm with Peter Masson on this, indeed 
I'd go further (since I'm in barrack-room lawyer mode in recent days 
;-) -

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/conditions.htm

Looks to me like item 4.  The situation is not covered by 4a.  It's 
not covered by 4b. An Ordinary ticket is not covered by 4c.  How are 
we supposed to interpret 4d in this context? - if the ticket was sold 
by operator X for use on the services of operator X then it cannot be 
claimed that goods and services are being supplied by an "other 
person", so 4d too is inapplicable.  This then exhausts the list of 
conditions to which an Ordinary ticket is subject!

We've discussed here before, situations where the instructions to 
staff were more-restrictive than the actual terms of the contract with 
the customer, and, as a result, servants of the company have committed 
breaches of contract.  

The present case may be rather a grey area, in comparison with some of 
those...

It might be claimed by some that the designation "two part ticket" 
makes it clear that the outward portion is not valid without the 
return portion being held - but surely a naive passenger is entitled 
to be confused, since we know that the return portion has to be valid 
without the outward portion being held (the outward portion might have 
been collected, or retained in a barrier), demonstrating that the two 
parts do not necessarily have to stay together at all times.

ttfn

-- 

Q: what command is given to start an eating contest?

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:34:58 +0100, Chris Pemberton
 wrote:


>You can ask to see the fares manual. Every booking office has one. I
>call that readily available.


True, but where a member of staff is insistent that they are correct
it is often refused.

It wouldn't be difficult to print it on the ticket - given that it
applies to all returns, add a phrase "The outward portion of a
two-part return ticket is only valid with the unused return portion"
in the small print on the blank.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

kajr@mwfree.net wrote:


> It isn't obvious to me what determines whether a ticket is the inbound
> or outbound portion.


If it's the first half of the journey, it is 'outbound' and says OUT
on the ticket.

If it's the second (or return) half of the journey, it is 'inbound'
and says 'RTN' on the ticket.

You use the OUT ticket and then the RTN ticket.

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

"Peter Masson"  wrote in message 
news:dekstc$7j1$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

>
> "asdf" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote
>>
>> Right. There seems to be a slightly odd situation here whereby
>> Vauxhall is a member of London Terminals according to the NFM, but is
>> NOT a member of the London Group in the RG.
>>
>> Vauxhall has Clapham Junction as a routeing point, which passes the
>> fares check[1], so (using map LM) it seems that travel to Vauxhall
>> (but *not* Waterloo/Victoria) is permitted via Kensington Olympia on a
>> Watford Jn - London Terminals ticket.
>>
>> Now, it's not at all obvious that a ticket from Watford Jn to London
>> Terminals is anything other than a ticket to Euston, so it's
>> unsurprising that when you asked for a ticket to Vauxhall, you got a
>> ticket to U12 which includes travel to Queens Park or Euston plus an
>> Underground journey.
>>
>> I think the easiest solution is just to ask for a ticket to London
>> Terminals, but you might be called upon to justify its validity to
>> on-train staff...
>>
>>
>> [1] Or at least it does if you compare the Any Permitted
>> WatfordJ-London ticket with the the route Kensington Olympia
>> WatfordJ-ClaphamJ one, which I assume is correct, but not if you
>> compare it with the Any Permitted one. Then again, aren't the fares
>> comparisons supposed to be made using some particular old version of
>> the fares manual, rather than current fares?
>
> What seems to have been missed in the discussion is that the OP wants to
> travel via Kensington Olympia and Clapham Junction. As Vauxhall is in both
> Zones 1 and 2 he doesn't need to go into Zone 1 at all. Is there such a
> thing as a ODTC (in both peak and off-peak versions) from Watford Junction
> to Zones 2-6, and if so, what's the fare, and is this the ticket the OP
> wants?
>
> Peter
>

Oh, isn't life confusing?

When I was a lad, I seem to remember ticket buying was simple - you asked 
for a ticket from A to B, 1st or 3rd class, single or return, and that was 
it!   If you were doing a local journey, you could introduce the added 
complication of a cheap day return.   Now you need a degree in geography, a 
calendar, a watch and a calculator - and you still probably end up with the 
wrong ticket!

And as for travel to Watford, Clapham, Kensington O, Vauxhall, Waterloo - if 
the regular locals can't work it out, what hope is there for us in the wilds 
of Tyneside, or even those from the Midlands (Leeds, Manchester, etc.), who 
very occasionally and with great trepidation make a trip to the Deep South? 
Not to mention the pensioners....

Sounds like a case for a concerted approach to MP's and the Government to 
insist on a simplification of the system.

Envo

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 18:07:50 +0100, in article
, "Alan J.
Flavell"  wrote in uk.railway: 


>The NCoC implies that there is no need to ask: if a ticket is subject 
>to restrictive conditions, then you must be told about them at the 
>time of purchase.  See the last paragraph of NCoC item 4 cited below.


I would define the rule as a point of clarification. You go out, you
come back. There is nothing to stop you (in the case of an S/FOR ticket)
from stopping on the way out, carrying on a bit more, stopping again,
carrying on etc to the destination - and doing the same thing on the way
back, or going straight there and back. The choice is yours with an
Open. The validity rule simply clarifies that the tickets are to be used
in the order in which they were issued. You are, after all asking for a
ticket to take you from point A to point B and back again, not a ticket
from point B to point A and back to point B. One can be sold for that if
that is what is required.

[...]


>It might be claimed by some that the designation "two part ticket" 
>makes it clear that the outward portion is not valid without the 
>return portion being held - but surely a naive passenger is entitled 
>to be confused, since we know that the return portion has to be valid 
>without the outward portion being held (the outward portion might have 
>been collected, or retained in a barrier), demonstrating that the two 
>parts do not necessarily have to stay together at all times.


Clutching at straws there, I think. To get back, it is reasonable to
expect that in the case of a return ticket, one has the return half with
them - otherwise, how is one going to get back?


Cheers,
Chris Pemberton, Pendleton, Salford, Lancs.
-- 
This post contains my personal opinion only. If I am in a position to
speak for somebody I'll say so.

"Chris Pemberton"  wrote

>
> Clutching at straws there, I think. To get back, it is reasonable to
> expect that in the case of a return ticket, one has the return half with
> them - otherwise, how is one going to get back?
>

It would be reasonable if this condition was clearly brought to the
attention of passengers. Agreed, most who fall foul of it are trying
something on, most likely reuse of tickets, or possibly exploiting anomalies
in fares. But there are situations where the return part of the ticket
might, legitimately apart from this condition, make the outward journey
separately from the passenger. Parent at B buys an A to B return ticket so
that child who lives with other parent at A can make a visit. Posts outward
ticket to child, but retains return part to give to child when child sets
out for return journey. Four people arrive at station by car. Three go into
the station to buy tickets for all four, while fourth goes to park car.
Parking takes longer than expected and train arrives. Two decide to take
train, leaving one, with two outward tickets to wait for driver and travel
by next train (missing the start of the concert they're going to). They'll
all meet up at the concert, so all four can have the return parts of their
tickets for the journey back.

Peter

Peter Masson wrote:



> It would be reasonable if this condition was clearly brought to the
> attention of passengers.


<snip long and valid example>

Again I ask, why print return tickets in two parts?

Charlie

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Chris Pemberton wrote:

[referring to being able to present a ticket's return portion on 
demand, also while on the outbound journey:]


> I would define the rule as a point of clarification.


I think the problem with this discussion is that you're taking the 
rule pretty much for granted, and working out from there.  You may be 
having difficulty putting yourself into the position of a naive 
passenger who has never heard of this rule, and was not told about it 
until a ticket examiner accuses them of trying to defraud the company.


> You go out, you come back. There is nothing to stop you (in the case 
> of an S/FOR ticket) from stopping on the way out, carrying on a bit 
> more, stopping again, carrying on etc to the destination - and doing 
> the same thing on the way back, or going straight there and back. 
> The choice is yours with an Open.


OK so far.


> The validity rule simply clarifies that the tickets are to be used 
> in the order in which they were issued.


Not only that, but it demands that the passenger be able to present 
both portions of the ticket on demand on the outward leg (but not on 
the return leg).  As far as the *staff* have been told, it seems there 
is no excuse. But e.g a passenger, unaware of this rule, might have 
packed it deeply in their luggage and be unable to locate it on demand 
when the ticket inspector comes around.  A nervous passenger might 
even theoretically post the return half of the ticket to their 
destination, in case they lost it before needing to use it. And the 
passenger would be penalised for breaching a rule of which they were 
unaware - and were not warned at time of purchase.

(At least airline coupons are stapled together in sequence in a 
folder, and there are definite printed instructions that they are only 
valid if not removed from the folder and used in correct sequence.)

Just to stress this again: the rule *might* in itself be quite 
reasonable, but I say that to be properly valid, it's essential that 
passengers be made clearly aware of it, not for it to be hidden away 
in some obscure corner of a manual that the passenger would not 
normally see.


> You are, after all asking for a ticket to take you from point A to 
> point B and back again, not a ticket from point B to point A and 
> back to point B.


I haven't disagreed with that point, and don't do so now.  The 
argument is only about being able to present both portions of the 
ticket under certain circumstances.


> >It might be claimed by some that the designation "two part ticket" 
> >makes it clear that the outward portion is not valid without the 
> >return portion being held - but surely a naive passenger is entitled 
> >to be confused, since we know that the return portion has to be valid 
> >without the outward portion being held (the outward portion might have 
> >been collected, or retained in a barrier), demonstrating that the two 
> >parts do not necessarily have to stay together at all times.
> 
> Clutching at straws there, I think.


I still think that you are reasoning about this from a position of 
taking the rule for granted.  You'd need to think your way into the 
mind of an honest passenger who is simply unaware that there is any 
such rule.  They wouldn't, after all, want to risk accidentally 
presenting the return portion - with the risk that a busy ticket 
inspector might accidentally grip it without spotting that it was the 
wrong ticket - so it's common sense that they'd keep it somewhere 
safe, no?

If there's any "clutching at straws" going on here, it's the 
assumption that their inability to present the return portion on 
demand during the outward leg must mean ipso facto that they were 
trying to use the portions in the wrong order and/or defraud the 
railway.

The bottom line of the point I am trying to make is that *I think they 
need to be told*, in so many words, about this rule.  That's all.

On 25 Aug 2005 08:01:32 -0700, zikkimalambo@connectfree.co.uk wrote:


>> >Also, were the op to be travelling in peak time, the fares would be
>> >(from qjump)
>> >
>> >standard day return FROM Vauxhall 14.90
>> >
>> >standard day return FROM Watford 12.80
>>
>> The difference seems to be a result of QJump calculating the through
>> train-tube fare differently in each direction, rather than any
>> deliberate asymmetry in the fares manual.
>
>What is the correct fare according to the fares manual?


I'm *guessing* that one is a Watford Jn to U1 and the other is a
Watford Jn to U12. Both would be valid for the journey via Euston
(tube singles are valid up the line from Euston as far as Kenton)
although only the latter would be valid if taking the tube from Queens
Park.


>> >Does anyone (the OP?) know the costs of the following.......
>> >
>> >7 day Travelcard which covers Watford to Vauxhall.
>>
>> 57.50, I think
>>
>> >1 Day Travelcard bought in London which covers the above.
>>
>> There isn't one.
>
>Oh, my brain hurts!  If they can sell a 7 Day, why can't they sell a 1
>day?


The 1 day version is effectively a return from Watford Jn to Boundary
Zone 6, plus a Z1-6 Travelcard, on one ticket. The "outward" part of
the WFJ-BZ6 journey is supposed to be completed before the "return"
part, so they aren't supposed to sell you one in London - they'll sell
you the ticket combination I mentioned in a previous post.

The 7 day version is effectively a Watford Jn to BZ6 season, plus a
Z1-6 Travelcard season, on one ticket. In this case, the WFJ-BZ6 part
allows unlimited journeys in either direction, so you can buy it
anywhere (although it will always say "from" Watford Junction "to"
Zones 1-6, never the other way round).

(Boundary Zone 6 is the outer boundary of Z6.)

In message , at 14:34:58 on 
Thu, 25 Aug 2005, Chris Pemberton  
remarked:

>You can ask to see the fares manual. Every booking office has one. I
>call that readily available.


I got a distinctly hostile response when asking such a thing at Kings 
Cross. The normal reaction is "we've got a smartarse here".
-- 
Roland Perry

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:13:58 UTC, Chris Pemberton 
 wrote:

: Clutching at straws there, I think. To get back, it is reasonable to
: expect that in the case of a return ticket, one has the return half with
: them - otherwise, how is one going to get back?

What business is that of the railway company?

Ian

--