I'm planning a trip to Preston by train shortly and I was wondering if a
Return ticket bought from Manchester allows me to travel out via Chorley and
come back via Wigan NW.


Thanks


Andrew

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 06:14:36 +0000 (UTC), "Andrew Bott"
 wrote:


>I'm planning a trip to Preston by train shortly and I was wondering if a
>Return ticket bought from Manchester allows me to travel out via Chorley and
>come back via Wigan NW.


It appears to be according to the online Routeing Guide, except that
(for some ridiculous reason) the Atherton Line is *not* permitted.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Neil Williams (wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk) said:

> On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 06:14:36 +0000 (UTC), "Andrew Bott"
>  wrote:
>
> > I'm planning a trip to Preston by train shortly and I
> > was wondering if a Return ticket bought from Manchester
> > allows me to travel out via Chorley and come back via
> > Wigan NW.
>
> It appears to be according to the online Routeing Guide,
> except that (for some ridiculous reason) the Atherton
> Line is *not* permitted.
>


Always worth checking the easements if there's an obvious route missing: 
http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing%20Guide/easements.htm

Ctrl+f for Atherton and Wigan brings up nothing though.


-- 
Andrew

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:03:58 GMT, "Andrew Bell" 
wrote:


>Ctrl+f for Atherton and Wigan brings up nothing though.


It's not the only one in the North West.  Liverpool-Manchester via the
CLC (Warrington C) line is not currently permitted either, despite
being the obvious route.  Someone has clearly made the changes without
checking.  In this latter case the issue would be corrected by adding
map LN (Liverpool-Nottingham-Norwich) to the route.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

In article , Chris Tolley 
 writes

>So the question of whether or not the CLC route is valid is answered by
>the fact that through trains use it, not by reference to the RG. through
>trains use it, isn't it?


No, because that limits use to through trains, not changing at 
Warrington (or elsewhere) between trains that aren't through trains.

Compare Liverpool Street to Peterborough via Ipswich.

-- 
Clive D.W. Feather                       | Home: 
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work)             | Web:  <http://www.davros.org>
Fax: +44 870 051 9937                    | Work: 
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Alan J. Flavell wrote:


> I rather suspect that the journey is impossible, in the terms of the 
> routeing guide.  I note that the journey planner comes up with 
> connections via Liverpool LS.


The RG is not only concerned with mapped routes, although without a
doubt, they do make up the biggest chunk!

"The shortest route over which a regular, scheduled service operates"
is always a valid route. As there is no regular, scheduled service
north from Acton Bridge other than to Runcorn and Liverpool, it is -
to all intents and purposes - on the Liverpool branch of the WCML and
not on the trunk line that runs through to Warrington Bank Quay. The
same can be said of Hartford and Winsford.

So in looking for a valid route, you can consider the distances via
Crewe and Liverpool.

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

Stevie D wrote:

>
> "The shortest route over which a regular, scheduled service operates"
> is always a valid route.


Now, where exactly does it say that? All that I can find in the on-line
RG is this:

"Shortest Route
"The route between 2 stations which is the shortest by distance. This
can be worked out from the National Rail Timetable. Mileages are shown
on the first page of each table."

I can't see any reference to a service, regular, scheduled or even
passenger. Perhaps Freightliner call on request.  <g>

Your move, my lord Bishop!

Incidentally,
-- 
Pat Ricroft, City of Salford, UK
================================

On 24 Aug 2005 02:30:29 -0700, "Pat Ricroft" 
wrote:


>> "The shortest route over which a regular, scheduled service operates"
>> is always a valid route.
>
>Now, where exactly does it say that?


The NCoC.

"The route taking the shortest distance that can be travelled on
regular scheduled passenger services between the stations stated on
your ticket"


>Incidentally,


....?

asdf wrote:

> On 24 Aug 2005 02:30:29 -0700, "Pat Ricroft" 
> wrote:
> >
> >Now, where exactly does it say that?
>
> The NCoC.
> "The route taking the shortest distance that can be travelled on
> regular scheduled passenger services between the stations stated on
> your ticket"


Thanks. Condition 13b(i) in fact, now I look it up at
<http://nrekb.nationalrail.co.uk/conditions.htm#b>.


> >Incidentally,
>
> ...?


Sorry, brain out of sync with fingers again.

Incidentally, not every table in the NRT has mileage columns. Table 51
is specifically mentioned in the RG, but there are others, including
some of the bus and ferry services and other summary timetables like
157, 175 and 199.

That's just an academic point. Of rather more significance is the fact
that some tables have incomplete mileage tables. The one that comes to
mind is Table 57. How far is it from Birmingham to Leicester? It
doesn't say. Neither does it say how far it is from Leicester to
Birmingham. Both are big junctions, not just wayside halts on a branch
line, so it may be important to know if your shortest route from
Stamford to Stafford is via Leicester and Nuneaton or via Derby and
Stoke.

These omissions seem to arise from revisions of the scope of individual
tables - Leicester-Birmingham was previously contained in Table 58, not
57.
-- 
Pat Ricroft, City of Salford, UK
================================

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005, Chris Tolley wrote:


> So the question of whether or not the CLC route is valid is answered by
> the fact that through trains use it, not by reference to the RG. through
> trains use it, isn't it? 


But you can only rely on a through-train route if you are *not* making any 
connections at either end.

Peter Masson wrote:

> A route not permitted by the Routeing Guide is permitted if you are
> travelling on a through train between *your* origin and destination, so
> Manchester to Liverpool via CLC is permitted on a through train. It is not a
> permitted route if you have to change at the Routeing Points, and the train
> between the Routeing Points does not run by a permitted route, so Kirkdale
> to Ashburys via CLC is not a permitted route (though it would be if there
> were actually a through train between these stations).


Indeed. I wrote my preceding post while under the impression that the
CLC route was also the shortest, but afterwards I looked up the
distances, and the CLC route isn't the shortest, so the only way it
would be a permitted route for a journey from K to A is if it were in
the RG.

-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632921.html
(40 088 at Crewe Locomotive Works scrap line, 1986)

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:35:59 GMT, Chris Tolley 
wrote:


>Okay, well perhaps in that case, the CLC route is indeed not permitted
>for such journeys. It is, after all, not the shortest.


It is, however:-
1. Reasonable.  It is not hugely further than any of the other routes.
2. Obvious.  All the expresses to Picc bar one (the new one via
Newton-le-Willows excepted) go that way, and indeed the only feasible
commuter services.
3. Popular.

There is no justification whatsoever for it not being permitted.

I suspect the shortest route from Kirkdale would be via Kirkby, Wigan
and Salford Crescent, incidentally.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Neil Williams wrote:


> Liverpool-Manchester via the CLC (Warrington C) line is not currently
> permitted either, despite being the obvious route


The guidelines for using the RG say: "You only need refer to the
Routeing Guide when a customer is not using an advertised through train
or the shortest route". 

So the question of whether or not the CLC route is valid is answered by
the fact that through trains use it, not by reference to the RG. through
trains use it, isn't it? 

-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9683850.html
(159 004 at Reading, 7 Jun 1995)

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:36:13 GMT, Chris Tolley 
wrote:


>So the question of whether or not the CLC route is valid is answered by
>the fact that through trains use it, not by reference to the RG. through
>trains use it, isn't it? 


Not if you're actually travelling from Kirkdale to Ashburys...

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Neil Williams wrote:

> Chris Tolley > wrote:
>>So the question of whether or not the CLC route is valid is answered by
>>the fact that through trains use it, not by reference to the RG, isn't it? 
> Not if you're actually travelling from Kirkdale to Ashburys...


OK, but with those start and end points, you *have* to change at M and 
L, and that just reduces to the original situation, doesn't it?

AFAICS, the virtue in putting the Earlestown route in the RG is to show 
that it is a valid route even though not all the trains that travel 
along it are through trains (e.g. M-Warr BQ-Chester). The inclusion thus 
means that it is valid to board one of those and change e.g. at Eccles, 
whereas a change is not necessary using the CLC route.

No doubt I'm missing something...

Alan J. Flavell wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005, Chris Tolley wrote:
> 
>> So the question of whether or not the CLC route is valid is answered by
>> the fact that through trains use it, isn't it? 
> 
> But you can only rely on a through-train route if you are *not* making any 
> connections at either end.


Okay, well perhaps in that case, the CLC route is indeed not permitted
for such journeys. It is, after all, not the shortest.

As an aside, would you let me know what you think the RG says about a
journey from Acton Bridge to Warr BQ? I think I know the answer, but it
would be nice to have it confirmed.
-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p13857122.html
(47 745 at London Kensington Olympia, 20 May 1995)

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:27:39 GMT, Chris Tolley 
wrote:


>>>So the question of whether or not the CLC route is valid is answered by
>>>the fact that through trains use it, not by reference to the RG, isn't it? 
>>
>> Not if you're actually travelling from Kirkdale to Ashburys...
>
>OK, but with those start and end points, you *have* to change at M and 
>L, and that just reduces to the original situation, doesn't it?


No. You don't automatically get to travel on a direct train between
the routeing points - only between the origin and destination printed
on your ticket (or if they have a common routeing point, a direct
train to the common routeing point then another to the destination,
provided you don't double back).

"Chris Tolley"  wrote in message
news:tnpmeelzwiff$.1xxtsksa4mdcp$.dlg@40tude.net...

> Neil Williams wrote:
> > Chris Tolley > wrote:
> >>So the question of whether or not the CLC route is valid is answered by
> >>the fact that through trains use it, not by reference to the RG, isn't
it?
> > Not if you're actually travelling from Kirkdale to Ashburys...
>
> OK, but with those start and end points, you *have* to change at M and
> L, and that just reduces to the original situation, doesn't it?
>
> No doubt I'm missing something...


A route not permitted by the Routeing Guide is permitted if you are
travelling on a through train between *your* origin and destination, so
Manchester to Liverpool via CLC is permitted on a through train. It is not a
permitted route if you have to change at the Routeing Points, and the train
between the Routeing Points does not run by a permitted route, so Kirkdale
to Ashburys via CLC is not a permitted route (though it would be if there
were actually a through train between these stations).

Peter.

Chris Tolley wrote:

>
> As an aside, would you let me know what you think the RG says about a
> journey from Acton Bridge to Warr BQ? I think I know the answer, but it
> would be nice to have it confirmed.


Ha! Nice one. "If the Origin and Destination share a common Routeing
Point the permitted route is the shortest distance between the Origin
and Destination, even if the journey does not pass through the routeing
point." Warrington is a Routeing Point and it is also a Routeing Point
for Acton Bridge.

There's no easement that I can see, and there is no direct service
between Acton Bridge and Warrington. Clearly common sense tells us to
travel via Liverpool, which is another routeing point for Acton Bridge.
I would argue to any unusually officious gripper that Liverpool
represents the shortest distance over which a scheduled passenger
service is actually available. The railway /might/ argue that two
separate tickets are required for such a journey, i.e. Acton Bridge to
Liverpool plus Liverpool to Warrington, but even Central Trains
wouldn't be that daft - would they?

The NRES online journey planner comes up with services via Liverpool
and a single fare of GBP 3.10, which is markedly cheaper than the
single fare to Liverpool (GBP 5.80). CDRs are GBP 4.40 and GBP 7.10.
Clearly some significant potential for fare evasion here, i.e. buying a
ticket to Warrington and ending the journey at Liverpool.
-- 
Pat Ricroft, City of Salford, UK
================================

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005, Chris Tolley wrote:


> As an aside, would you let me know what you think the RG says about a
> journey from Acton Bridge to Warr BQ? 


Acton Bridge has Warrington Group as a common routeing point, so there 
are no mapped routes.


> I think I know the answer, but it would be nice to have it 
> confirmed.


I rather suspect that the journey is impossible, in the terms of the 
routeing guide.  I note that the journey planner comes up with 
connections via Liverpool LS.  Or if you want something really 
baroque:

Acton Bridge	 	        23:46	Train	Central Trains
Crewe	                00:05	00:50	Train	Northern Rail
Manchester Piccadilly	01:34	05:40	Train	Arriva Trains Wales
Warrington Bank Quay	06:07	

For which it offers a Standard Day Single:  8.55