1> Apart from Virgin Cross-Country do any other services use the fast lines
through Salford Crescent heading to Piccadilly only I was on a TPX from
Wigan NW-Manchester Airport earlier that wasnt booked to stop at Salford
Crescent and I thought they would send this via the fast line but for some
reason it stayed on the slow line (closes to platform) through Salford
Crescent.

2> Is there a reason why Barrow-Manchester Airport TPX services run via
Wigan Northwestrern on Sundays instead of Chorley

3> Does anybody know what the white switches are for underneath station
platforms, also what are the 2 white and red track lights at track level
used for.

4> Is there any reason why Atherton line is shut on Sundays at the moment,
doesnt this line warrant a Sunday rail service and with Atherton line shut
is the Crow Nest single box still manned if so why out of interest, unlees
Crow Nest controls any other lines if so which lines does it control apart
from the Atherton/Bolton lines.


Thanks


Andrew

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:02:33 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Bott wrote:

> 3> Does anybody know what the white switches are for underneath station
> platforms, also what are the 2 white and red track lights at track level
> used for.


If by white switches you mean: the little white square plates with
numbers on that you only see on platform edges or platform supports,
they are not switches. They are reference marks for those times when the
track is being maintained. Their purpose is to ensure that the rails are
the correct distance from the platform so that people can get on and off
trains.

The small red and white lights are shunting signals. 1 red and 1 white
shown together means that you may not pass the signal. 2 whites means
you can. Shunting signals control movements within the station area.
-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9683767.html
(143 612 at Rhiwbina, 2 Jul 1999)

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:02:33 +0000 (UTC), "Andrew Bott"
 wrote:


>1> Apart from Virgin Cross-Country do any other services use the fast lines
>through Salford Crescent heading to Piccadilly only I was on a TPX from
>Wigan NW-Manchester Airport earlier that wasnt booked to stop at Salford
>Crescent and I thought they would send this via the fast line but for some
>reason it stayed on the slow line (closes to platform) through Salford
>Crescent.


I think they only use that as an overtaking line if another set is in
the platform.  I'm fairly sure I've been on a VT that went through the
platform.


>2> Is there a reason why Barrow-Manchester Airport TPX services run via
>Wigan Northwestrern on Sundays instead of Chorley


Engineering works, one would suspect - or do they do this all the
time?


>4> Is there any reason why Atherton line is shut on Sundays at the moment,


Because GMPTE don't give a monkeys about rail?  I agree that it is
appalling that a city rail service does not operate on Sundays.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

"Chris Tolley"  wrote

>
> The small red and white lights are shunting signals. 1 red and 1 white
> shown together means that you may not pass the signal. 2 whites means
> you can. Shunting signals control movements within the station area.


Recent installations have two small red lights (arranged horizontally) for
'on' and two small white lights (arranged at a 45 degree angle to each
other) for 'off'. Older installations had a white light illuminated all the
time, with a red horizontal to it for 'on' and a white at 45 degrees for
'off'.

Peter

Neil Williams wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:02:33 +0000 (UTC), "Andrew Bott"
>  wrote:
>
> >1> Apart from Virgin Cross-Country do any other services use the fast lines
> >through Salford Crescent heading to Piccadilly only I was on a TPX from
> >Wigan NW-Manchester Airport earlier that wasnt booked to stop at Salford
> >Crescent and I thought they would send this via the fast line but for some
> >reason it stayed on the slow line (closes to platform) through Salford
> >Crescent.
>
> I think they only use that as an overtaking line if another set is in
> the platform.  I'm fairly sure I've been on a VT that went through the
> platform.


The OP didn't say which route he'd taken from Wigan NW, though I expect
it was Bolton. But just for information, there is no connection from
the Atherton lines to the "fast line". (Which, also for information, is
properly known as the Up Bolton line, the others being the Up and Down
Bolton and the Down Bolton lines.)


> >2> Is there a reason why Barrow-Manchester Airport TPX services run via
> >Wigan Northwestrern on Sundays instead of Chorley
>
> Engineering works, one would suspect - or do they do this all the
> time?


I think this is half right. The Chorley line is open at the moment, but
the Barrow - Airport trains are still routed via Wigan NW (most of them
at any rate). The reason appears to be that this is the only way of
giving Wigan an Airport train on Sundays. The trains on the Southport -
Wigan - Bolton - Manchester run are routed to Alderley Edge on Sundays.
(But they run non-stop from Piccadilly to Wilmslow, and Stockport is
shut anyway, so they /could/ be routed via the Airport. I dunno!)


> >4> Is there any reason why Atherton line is shut on Sundays at the moment,
>
> Because GMPTE don't give a monkeys about rail?  I agree that it is
> appalling that a city rail service does not operate on Sundays.


Cost probably. I think the signal boxes can be switched out, so that's
not a problem, but some of the stations would still need someone to
open them up and lock them again later, even if they didn't sell
tickets. From memory, the likes of Atherton and Walkden get locked up
at night. But everyone's in cutback mode at the moment - there's not
going to be funding for additional services, even if everyone in
Atherton wanted to spend every Sunday in Manchester's Arndale Centre.
-- 
Pat Ricroft, City of Salford, UK
================================

On 22 Aug 2005 02:32:51 -0700, "Pat Ricroft" 
wrote:


>I think this is half right. The Chorley line is open at the moment, but
>the Barrow - Airport trains are still routed via Wigan NW (most of them
>at any rate). The reason appears to be that this is the only way of
>giving Wigan an Airport train on Sundays. 


Good point.  It also used to be the case that the Barrow/Windermere
services went via Wigan anyway pre-1998, so it's not as if it hasn't
happened before.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Andrew Bott wrote:

>>
> 4> Is there any reason why Atherton line is shut on Sundays at the moment,
> doesnt this line warrant a Sunday rail service and with Atherton line shut
> is the Crow Nest single box still manned if so why out of interest, unlees
> Crow Nest controls any other lines if so which lines does it control apart
> from the Atherton/Bolton lines.



No idea about the first question of those two, apart perhaps from the
savings on signallers wages that can be made by not having Walkden box
open.  Crow Nest still has to be manned though even though there's no
service via Atherton, as it's the fringe box to Warrington PSB, which
supervises the stretch from Hindley to just short of Wigan Wallgate.
This includes the connection to & from the WCML that permit through
running between Bolton/Atherton and Wigan NW/Preston which comes in
handy for diversions and is also used by a few peak hour Liverpool LS -
Wigan NW - Bolton - Manchester Vic stopping trains.

GMac wrote:

> No idea about the first question of those two, apart perhaps from the
> savings on signallers wages that can be made by not having Walkden box
> open.  Crow Nest still has to be manned though even though there's no
> service via Atherton, as it's the fringe box to Warrington PSB, which
> supervises the stretch from Hindley to just short of Wigan Wallgate.
> This includes the connection to & from the WCML that permit through
> running between Bolton/Atherton and Wigan NW/Preston which comes in
> handy for diversions and is also used by a few peak hour Liverpool LS -
> Wigan NW - Bolton - Manchester Vic stopping trains.


Also Crow Nest is the fringe Box to Man.Picc.PSB on the Lostock side.

"Neil Williams"  wrote in message 
news:430979e6.1069638@news.tesco.net...


>
> Because GMPTE don't give a monkeys about rail?  I agree that it is
> appalling that a city rail service does not operate on Sundays.


But they do subsidise anyone to travel across the "County" for 2.70 per day 
or 1.30 after 18:30.
Yes, if your going to Manchester Airport from Wigan to start your holidays 
the most you will pay is 2.70 at the weekend.

What have GMPTE ever done for the rail passanger?

KW.

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:34:10 GMT, "Ken Ward" 
wrote:


>
>"Neil Williams"  wrote in message 
>news:430979e6.1069638@news.tesco.net...
>
>>
>> Because GMPTE don't give a monkeys about rail?  I agree that it is
>> appalling that a city rail service does not operate on Sundays.
>
>But they do subsidise anyone to travel across the "County" for 2.70 per day 
>or 1.30 after 18:30.
>Yes, if your going to Manchester Airport from Wigan to start your holidays 
>the most you will pay is 2.70 at the weekend.
>
>What have GMPTE ever done for the rail passanger?
>
>KW.
>


Cheap tickets are no good if there are no trains to use them on...

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:44:14 +0100, Cheeky  wrote:


>Cheap tickets are no good if there are no trains to use them on...


Very true.  The other end of the M62 (or the CLC if you prefer, so
long as you are on a direct train! :) ) couldn't be more different.
GMPTE seem to think that cutting prices alone will attract passengers,
while Merseytravel seem to hold the opinion (shoddy 142s aside) that a
good-quality network is worth paying for - and now they've got control
of it it is really showing.

Merseyrail appears to be reaching (or in some ways, for example
station quality, even surpassing) the standard of a German S-Bahn in
many ways, from what I've seen and heard.  That can't possibly be a
bad thing.  Rail transport in GMPTE's area, OTOH...

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:09:02 GMT, wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
Williams) wrote:



>
>Merseyrail appears to be reaching (or in some ways, for example
>station quality, even surpassing) the standard of a German S-Bahn in
>many ways, from what I've seen and heard.  That can't possibly be a
>bad thing.  Rail transport in GMPTE's area, OTOH...
>
>Neil


It says it all that the entire GM heavy rail network carries fewer
passengers than the Metrolink lines...

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:45:13 +0100, Cheeky  wrote:


>It says it all that the entire GM heavy rail network carries fewer
>passengers than the Metrolink lines...  


Which isn't surprising because;
1. The GMPTE local heavy rail network is generally underinvested and
run-down, with probably the only real exception being the Hadfield
line and the Airport (not that Metrolink isn't!)
2. The Bury and Altrincham lines were the busiest anyway before being
Metrolinked.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Neil Williams wrote:

> 
> 2. The Bury and Altrincham lines were the busiest anyway before being
> Metrolinked.


A few years ago I vaguely recall someone saying that passenger numbers
on the Metrolink were lower than were using the lines under BR at the
time of closure. Was this ever true, and is it still true?

Cheers

mark-r
 
-- 
"Let's meet the panel. You couldn't ask for four finer comedians -
so that answers your next question..."
 -- Humphrey Lyttleton

In article , Mark Robinson
 wrote:


> Neil Williams wrote:
> > 
> > 2. The Bury and Altrincham lines were the busiest anyway before being
> > Metrolinked.
> 
> A few years ago I vaguely recall someone saying that passenger numbers
> on the Metrolink were lower than were using the lines under BR at the
> time of closure. Was this ever true, and is it still true?
> 

it was certainly true in the early days of M'link, but not sure now, the
seating capacity per hour on the Bury line is lower, henve the trams were
so overcrowded and given the dreadful ride/customer service etc folk voted
with their Mondeos.

all political hype

B

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:50:59 +0000 (UTC), in article
,
wottoast@btopenworld.com (Andy Bunburry) wrote in uk.railway: 


>In article , Mark Robinson
> wrote:
>
>> A few years ago I vaguely recall someone saying that passenger numbers
>> on the Metrolink were lower than were using the lines under BR at the
>> time of closure. Was this ever true, and is it still true?
>> 
>it was certainly true in the early days of M'link, but not sure now, the
>seating capacity per hour on the Bury line is lower, henve the trams were
>so overcrowded and given the dreadful ride/customer service etc folk voted
>with their Mondeos.


Ah, but don't forget that trams don't count capacity in seats, it's
measured in floorspace. You get 25 square centimetres to yourself. The
capacity is worked out at 4 people per square metre.

I guess I'll have to pay for 4.

Cheers,
Chris Pemberton, Pendleton, Salford, Lancs.
-- 
This post contains my personal opinion only. If I am in a position to
speak for somebody I'll say so.

The message 
from Chris Pemberton  contains these words:


> I guess I'll have to pay for 4.


Don't be so modest...   <G>

-- 
Dave,                                     
Frodsham

"Chris Pemberton"  wrote in message
news:p0grg1ll5tu2l6q68ik746cib980ve3sas@4ax.com...

> Ah, but don't forget that trams don't count capacity in seats, it's
> measured in floorspace. You get 25 square centimetres to yourself.


Each passenger has to fit into a 2-inch square?  That really is
overcrowding.
;-)

Roger

Chris Pemberton wrote:

>
> Ah, but don't forget that trams don't count capacity in seats, it's
> measured in floorspace. You get 25 square centimetres to yourself. The
> capacity is worked out at 4 people per square metre.
>
> I guess I'll have to pay for 4.


Even I would have to stand on tip-toes if we only get 25 square
centimetres!

I think you might mean 25 square decimetres. Or 2,500 square
centimetres. Or possibly a rood or a perch. Or three-eighths of an
ansaldo. Or something.

My brain hurts.
-- 
Pat Ricroft, City of Salford, UK
================================

Chris Pemberton wrote:

>
> Ah, but don't forget that trams don't count capacity in seats, it's
> measured in floorspace. You get 25 square centimetres to yourself. The
> capacity is worked out at 4 people per square metre.
>
> I guess I'll have to pay for 4.


Even I would have to stand on tip-toes if we only get 25 square
centimetres!

I think you might mean 25 square decimetres. Or 2,500 square
centimetres. Or possibly a rood or a perch. Or three-eighths of an
imperial ansaldo. Or something.

My brain hurts.
-- 
Pat Ricroft, City of Salford, UK
================================

Chris Pemberton wrote:


> Ah, but don't forget that trams don't count capacity in seats, it's
> measured in floorspace. You get 25 square centimetres to yourself. The
> capacity is worked out at 4 people per square metre.


1 square metre	= 100 cm  100 cm
		= 10 000 cm

4 people per m	= 10 000  4
		= 2 500 cm
		= 50 cm  50 cm

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

Andy Bunburry wrote:

> 
> In article , Mark Robinson
>  wrote:

> > A few years ago I vaguely recall someone saying that passenger numbers
> > on the Metrolink were lower than were using the lines under BR at the
> > time of closure. Was this ever true, and is it still true?
> >
> it was certainly true in the early days of M'link, but not sure now, the
> seating capacity per hour on the Bury line is lower, henve the trams were
> so overcrowded and given the dreadful ride/customer service etc folk voted
> with their Mondeos.


The figures usually quoted by the politicians are seven and a half
million passenger
journeys a year for BR compared to fifteen million for Phase 1 of
Metrolink. Some slightly
more meaningful figures can be gleaned from GMPTE's "Trends and
Statistics" reports, which are available to download at
<>http://www.gmpte.com/content.cfm?subcategory_id=103075&library_category_id=103632>.

The most recent report is for 2001-2. This quotes (on page 16) figures
for passenger journeys by rail going back to 1986. Local rail then
accounted for 24 million journeys a year. It dropped abruptly in 1990
(by 5 million) and again in  1991 (by 7 million). I can't off-hand
remember the exact sequence in which the B and A lines shut down, but
closure was certainly prolonged. Then again, there was a lot of
disruption after the opening of the Windsor Link which also lost the
railways some patronage.

On page 19 we get the equivalent figures for Metrolink. It started in
1993 with 7.6 million journeys and the figure grew rapidly to 11 million
the next year and 12.4m in 1995. By 2000 it was carrying 14.2 million
people. Again, I don't have dates to hand, but that was roughly when
Phase 2 (the Eccles line) opened.

The weasel words are at the bottom of the chart: "Data Source: Estimates
based on CPS reports (20012002), Greater Manchester Transportation
Units boarding counts (1999-2000) and
Ticket sales data and surveys (1993-1998) Data for 20012002 is for the
calendar year". In other words, the figures are largely grossed up from
samples and allow for such things as people arriving by heavy rail and
transferring to light rail at Piccadilly or Victoria to reach the city
centre.

There are some more recent statistics for local rail and Metrolink
patronage at <www.gmpte.com/upload/library/bvpp0304.pdf>, but they don't
go far enough back to compare with BR. They quote 16.8 million passenger
journeys by heavy rail in 2002-3, compared with 18.8m by Metrolink - and
229m by bus. (Yes, two hundred and twenty-nine, not twenty-two point
nine.) 
You might argue that heavy rail journeys are longer, which is true, but
they're not that much longer. Passenger-kilometres for the year came to
282m by heavy rail, 167m by Metrolink and 1,041m by bus.

Ah, and now Google has dug up an even more recent report for me, at
<http://www.gmpte.com/upload/library/bpp2005.pdf>. This gives figures
for 2004-5:

Heavy rail - 18m journeys (302m pax/km)
Metrolink - 19.5m journeys (178 pax/km)
Local bus - 218m journeys (1,009 pax/km)

All good fun.
-- 
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================
Do something amazing. Give blood.
<http://www.blood.co.uk/>

exjims@aol.com wrote:


> Also Crow Nest is the fringe Box to Man.Picc.PSB on the Lostock side.


Indeed it is (I'd forgotten that one) - two others with similar
functions are located at Blackrod (Euxton Jcn - Chorley - Bolton line)
and Bromley Cross (Bolton - Blackburn line), which bridge the gap
between Piccadilly SC and Preston PSB.

In article ,
Chris Pemberton   wrote:


>Ah, but don't forget that trams don't count capacity in seats, it's
>measured in floorspace. You get 25 square centimetres to yourself. The
>capacity is worked out at 4 people per square metre.


You have a whole 25 square cm ?  I'm not sure the Nottingham ones give that.

Nick
-- 
http://www.leverton.org/                      ... So express yourself

Chris Pemberton wrote:


>The capacity is worked out at 4 people per square metre.

-----------------------------------

Methinks that Chris & myself* shouldn't attempt too many
tram rides together, according to those figures!

*(It's OK --- we know each other!)  :-)


Regards,

DigitisED  (Eddie Bellass)

Mythical Merseyside, in the Occupied Territories
of Old Lancashire, United Kingdom.

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free and checked
by a leading anti-virus system - updated continuously.

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:07:00 +0000 (UTC), in article
<deqa44$nvu$1@hub.home>, nick@leverton.org (Nick Leverton) wrote in
uk.railway: 


>You have a whole 25 square cm ?  I'm not sure the Nottingham ones give that.


And there I was, thinking that the Nottingham trams were great. Then
again, my experience of a Nottingham tram was the last one on a rainy
Tuesday from the university to Pheonix Park. I was the only soul on
board...

Cheers,
Chris Pemberton, Pendleton, Salford, Lancs.
-- 
This post contains my personal opinion only. If I am in a position to
speak for somebody I'll say so.

In article ,
Chris Pemberton   wrote:

>On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:07:00 +0000 (UTC), in article
><deqa44$nvu$1@hub.home>, nick@leverton.org (Nick Leverton) wrote in
>uk.railway: 
>
>>You have a whole 25 square cm ?  I'm not sure the Nottingham ones give that.
>
>And there I was, thinking that the Nottingham trams were great. Then
>again, my experience of a Nottingham tram was the last one on a rainy
>Tuesday from the university to Pheonix Park. I was the only soul on
>board...


I should imagine you weren't trying to stand in the aisle then! :-)

Nick
-- 
http://www.leverton.org/                      ... So express yourself