Whilst I was at Cardiff station earlier I saw a 143 on a Cardiff -
Brighton service (or Portsmouth....I can't recall), I thought they were
banned from SR metals?

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:27:47 +0100, Gregster  wrote:


> Whilst I was at Cardiff station earlier I saw a 143 on a Cardiff -
> Brighton service (or Portsmouth....I can't recall), I thought they were
> banned from SR metals?
>

Mostly likely would be turned back at Westbury as you say they are banned  
 from third rail areas cos they can in theory make contact with the third  
rail.

paul



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On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:37:10 +0100, "paul Hutchinson"
 wrote:


>Mostly likely would be turned back at Westbury as you say they are banned  
> from third rail areas cos they can in theory make contact with the third  
>rail.


They run, albeit briefly, over third rail lines in both the Southport
and the Hunts Cross areas.  I have no idea if they ever make it into
platform 7a at Chester, but I wouldn't rule that out either.

What, apart from the fact that they don't like them, makes the SR
different?

Neil

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Gregster wrote:


> Whilst I was at Cardiff station earlier I saw a 143 on a Cardiff -
> Brighton service (or Portsmouth....I can't recall), I thought they were
> banned from SR metals?
> 


I'd guess it was swapped and the passengers transferred before it 
reached there.

Charlie

On 21 Aug 2005 13:27:47 -0700, "Gregster"  wrote:


>Whilst I was at Cardiff station earlier I saw a 143 on a Cardiff -
>Brighton service (or Portsmouth....I can't recall), I thought they were
>banned from SR metals?


Was it coupled to anything else? This would allow it to split (e.g. at
Bristol where the 143 might then work a local service) with the other
unit continuing to the SR.

Neil Williams wrote:


>
> What, apart from the fact that they don't like them, makes the SR
> different?
>


Don't know.

They are banned from SR third rail lines and every time someone in
uk.railway correctly says that, someone else says they run over Mersey
third rail lines. But The latter does occurring not overule that fact
that banned they are from SR third rail lines.

--
Nick

No, all alone

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:41:19 +0100, Neil Williams  
 wrote:


> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:37:10 +0100, "paul Hutchinson"
>  wrote:
>
>> Mostly likely would be turned back at Westbury as you say they are  
>> banned
>> from third rail areas cos they can in theory make contact with the third
>> rail.
>
> They run, albeit briefly, over third rail lines in both the Southport
> and the Hunts Cross areas.  I have no idea if they ever make it into
> platform 7a at Chester, but I wouldn't rule that out either.
>
> What, apart from the fact that they don't like them, makes the SR
> different?


I think that the theoretical clearance problem only existed on a tight  
curve. I dont have knowledge of Southport or Hunts Cross but the problem  
might not exist in limited running there.
It is well know that only HSTs with a certain swing link can operate on SR  
metals but there is no restriction past the third rail on the down line at  
Watford Junction and Im not sure if there are restrictions on the dual  
electrified platforms at Euston.

Paul



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On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:42:52 +0100, "paul Hutchinson"
 wrote:


>It is well know that only HSTs with a certain swing link can operate on SR  
>metals but there is no restriction past the third rail on the down line at  
>Watford Junction and Im not sure if there are restrictions on the dual  
>electrified platforms at Euston.


LSL Mk3s have been known to operate via Hunts Cross on diversions, as
well.  I can only suspect that it's such a short length that all stock
can be tested on it to ensure safety.

Neil

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Neil Williams wrote:


> They run, albeit briefly, over third rail lines in both the Southport
> and the Hunts Cross areas.  I have no idea if they ever make it into
> platform 7a at Chester, but I wouldn't rule that out either.
>


2 slight problems with that statement:

1) 143s don't work in and around Merseyside at all (142s are the only
railbuses in service in that neck of the woods and I assume they may
have a slightly different profile to the 143/144 variants).
2) the electric & diesel units are kept strictly apart at Southport -
Merseyrail trains can only access platforms 1-3, whilst the Northern
DMUs use the adjoining platforms 4-6 (3 & 4 are the opposite faces of
the middle island).  There is a fully signalled connection from
platform 3 to the Wigan line that could be accessed by a stray railbus,
but I've never actually seen it used - on my last visit it looked very
rusty indeed and I'm surprised it wasn't removed when the station was
resignalled as part of the Merseyrail resignalling programme several
years ago.
Chester & Hunts Cross do have short lengths of track that are used by
various varieties of DMU, including 142s, so presumably they must have
been cleared to operate on them (although only platform 2 at Hunts
Cross & a short portion between the junctions at Allerton & Hunts Cross
East sees regular use by 142s on the Manchester Oxford Rd to Liverpool
Lime St stoppers - 7a at Chester seems to be a diesel-free zone these
days).  I suspect therefore it's the Southern being picky as to what
can and can't run on it's metals, as they're quite happy to let other
types in.....

paul Hutchinson wrote:

>
> I think that the theoretical clearance problem only existed on a tight
> curve. I dont have knowledge of Southport or Hunts Cross but the problem
> might not exist in limited running there.
> It is well know that only HSTs with a certain swing link can operate on SR
> metals but there is no restriction past the third rail on the down line at
> Watford Junction and Im not sure if there are restrictions on the dual
> electrified platforms at Euston.
>

You may well be right about that, as all 3 stretches on Merseyside
(platform 2 at Hunts Cross station, the short stretch between the
convergence of the reversible elctric line and Allerton East Jcn where
Merseyrail and main line dicerge again, and platform 7a at Chester)
where the 142s run is straight.

Are Pacers not also barred from ScR as well as SR?
--
gordon

Neil Williams wrote:


> LSL Mk3s have been known to operate via Hunts Cross on diversions, as
> well.  I can only suspect that it's such a short length that all stock
> can be tested on it to ensure safety.


The same would apply to Watford Junction DF where there is a short
section of third rail at the south end to allow (empty) 313s to come
across the short connection from the DC lines to gain AC .

--
Nick

GMac wrote:

> Neil Williams wrote:
>
> > They run, albeit briefly, over third rail lines in both the Southport
> > and the Hunts Cross areas.  I have no idea if they ever make it into
> > platform 7a at Chester, but I wouldn't rule that out either.
> >
>
> 2 slight problems with that statement:
>
> 1) 143s don't work in and around Merseyside at all (142s are the only
> railbuses in service in that neck of the woods and I assume they may
> have a slightly different profile to the 143/144 variants).
> 2) the electric & diesel units are kept strictly apart at Southport -
> Merseyrail trains can only access platforms 1-3, whilst the Northern
> DMUs use the adjoining platforms 4-6 (3 & 4 are the opposite faces of
> the middle island).  There is a fully signalled connection from
> platform 3 to the Wigan line that could be accessed by a stray railbus,
> but I've never actually seen it used - on my last visit it looked very
> rusty indeed and I'm surprised it wasn't removed when the station was
> resignalled as part of the Merseyrail resignalling programme several
> years ago.
> Chester & Hunts Cross do have short lengths of track that are used by
> various varieties of DMU, including 142s, so presumably they must have
> been cleared to operate on them (although only platform 2 at Hunts
> Cross & a short portion between the junctions at Allerton & Hunts Cross
> East sees regular use by 142s on the Manchester Oxford Rd to Liverpool
> Lime St stoppers - 7a at Chester seems to be a diesel-free zone these
> days).  I suspect therefore it's the Southern being picky as to what
> can and can't run on it's metals, as they're quite happy to let other
> types in.....

They are not used in Scotland - lucky devils - but they have run in
Scotland - they used to run ECS to Hunslet-Barclay in Kilmarnock for
overhauls at one time - I have a pic of one at Kirkconnel taken in
about 1990 presumably en route to Kilmarnock. Also, 142s used to work
some early morning Carlisle - Dumfries trains pre-privatisation and I
have a vague recollection that they were used on the Bathgate line in
its first few weeks (?) when it opened in 1985.

They may now be prohibited - can anyone confirm?

D7666 wrote:

I'll try that again, something obviously went wrong there.


GMac wrote:


>  I suspect therefore it's the Southern being picky as to what
> can and can't run on it's metals, as they're quite happy to let other
> types in.....



That is rather a large conclusion to draw.


What 'other types' are they 'happy to let in' that have any connection
to this discussion i.e. four wheel railbuses and third rails ?

'Other types' are permitted to work because they do not have a third
rail issue so cannot be cited as examples if they are different types
of trains with different rules to run by.

I think it is true that all recent trains from about the very last BR
days were designed as universal so they would not have a third rail
clearance problem - hence 158s, 165s, 170s, Voyagers, etc are accepted,
while 14x are not because they are older designs. I suspect even a 390
complies with this, not that running over an SR third rail line is ever
likely.

--
Nick

"D7666"  wrote

>
> I think it is true that all recent trains from about the very last BR
> days were designed as universal so they would not have a third rail
> clearance problem - hence 158s, 165s, 170s, Voyagers, etc are accepted,
> while 14x are not because they are older designs. I suspect even a 390
> complies with this, not that running over an SR third rail line is ever
> likely.
>

Although 158s, 165s, and 170s have been happily accepted over some SR third
rail lines, I doubt that any of these would be generally welcome on SET
lines, most of which haven't been passed for any 23 metre stock.

Peter

GMac wrote:


>  I suspect therefore it's the Southern being picky as to what
> can and can't run on it's metals, as they're quite happy to let other
> types in.....



That is rather a large conclusion to draw.


What 'other types' are they 'happy to let in' that have any connection
to this discussion i.e. four wheel railbuses and third rails ?

'Other types' that do not impact on third rails are permitted to work
becuase they do not have a third rail issue cannot be cited as examples
if they are different types of trains with different rules to run by.

I think it is true that all recent trains from about the very last BR
days were designed as universal so they would not have a third rail
clearance problem - hence 158s, 165s, 170s, Voyagers, etc are accepted,
while 14x are not because they are older designs. I suspect even a 390
complies with this, not that running over an SR third rail line ios
ever likely.

--
Nick

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:39:37 +0100, Peter Masson  
 wrote:


>
> "D7666"  wrote
>>
>> I think it is true that all recent trains from about the very last BR
>> days were designed as universal so they would not have a third rail
>> clearance problem - hence 158s, 165s, 170s, Voyagers, etc are accepted,
>> while 14x are not because they are older designs. I suspect even a 390
>> complies with this, not that running over an SR third rail line is ever
>> likely.
>>
> Although 158s, 165s, and 170s have been happily accepted over some SR  
> third
> rail lines, I doubt that any of these would be generally welcome on SET
> lines, most of which haven't been passed for any 23 metre stock.


When you add in 159,171,220, 221 442 and 444 the majority of the SR is  
probably available to 23 m stock these days but probably only a few  
hundred metres in the SE division.

paul





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GMac wrote:


> Chester & Hunts Cross do have short lengths of track that are used by
> various varieties of DMU, including 142s, so presumably they must have
> been cleared to operate on them


Chester Platform 7 has aluminium-based conductor rail of a different
profile to the more common kind. Maybe that's relevant?

Charlie

Peter Masson wrote:


> Although 158s, 165s, and 170s have been happily accepted over some SR third
> rail lines, I doubt that any of these would be generally welcome on SET
> lines, most of which haven't been passed for any 23 metre stock.


I'm refering to bogie and wheel level clearances, nothing more.


--
Nick

"paul Hutchinson"  wrote

>
> When you add in 159,171,220, 221 442 and 444 the majority of the SR is
> probably available to 23 m stock these days but probably only a few
> hundred metres in the SE division.
>

AIUI it's more than a few hundred metres - apparently Factory Junction to
Ashford is cleared (via No. 1 BTR, i.e. Kent House, Knockholt and
Tonbridge), and 442s have been known to use it to visit Chart Leacon. But it
is true that most of the SE division is not cleared for 23 metre stock.

Peter

Peter Masson wrote:


23 m stock has clearcnace problems for different reasons that what we
were talking about. 23 m problems are usually related to throwever on
curves, of which the SED has a lot.

What we were discussing was third rail clearances, and I am pretty
certain there is no direct 23 m + third rail issue. Modern 23 m stock
like 442 and 444 obviously does not have any third rail issue, nor does
222, nor 170. Any limits on 444s - and there even many 444 restrictions
at Waterloo, never mind on SED side, have nothing whatsoever to do with
the third rail.

These are examples of different problems for different stock types.
Exactly my point earlier up the thread.

--
Nick

On 22 Aug 2005 12:28:55 -0700, "GMac"  wrote:


>1) 143s don't work in and around Merseyside at all (142s are the only
>railbuses in service in that neck of the woods and I assume they may
>have a slightly different profile to the 143/144 variants).


True, that'll teach me to read the post properly.


>2) the electric & diesel units are kept strictly apart at Southport -
>Merseyrail trains can only access platforms 1-3, whilst the Northern
>DMUs use the adjoining platforms 4-6 (3 & 4 are the opposite faces of
>the middle island).  There is a fully signalled connection from
>platform 3 to the Wigan line that could be accessed by a stray railbus,
>but I've never actually seen it used - on my last visit it looked very
>rusty indeed and I'm surprised it wasn't removed when the station was
>resignalled as part of the Merseyrail resignalling programme several
>years ago.


I'm fairly sure I have seen it used in my lifetime, though whether by
a railbus or a Sprinter I couldn't say.  The platform use at Southport
tends to vary somewhat - at one stage DMUs were using the platform
that adjoins directly onto the car park with a separate entrance, when
Regional Railways North West fell out with Merseyrail.

Neil

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