I'm seeking advice, I own a 1990 H reg GM engine 1.7 D Astra diesel estate.

Unfortunately for the last few months I've had a fuel leak from the (Bosch)
fuel injector pump, which drips tiny amounts of fuel, but only when the
engine is running, will it fail an MOT (due in November) because of this?

The reason I haven't bothered until now is that if I am prepared to remove
the pump and take it to a diesel specialist it's going to cost around 200
(could possibly be more) but because it's a good sound runner I don't mind
paying this amount.

However on browsing through the Haynes manual it looks like being a bit of a
brute to remove, requiring a 'puller' to remove the pump sprocket, and
apparently unless one is very precise in marking the exact way in which it
comes off the pump may need re-timing.

The main problem appears to be is the type of puller is recommended to
remove the pump sprocket in such a confined space, as the book shows this
procedure being carried out with the engine obviously out of the vehicle.

The annoying thing is that I actually replaced the cam belt and water pump
only a few months before this problem occurred, so I know that there isn't
exactly very much in the way of room for manoeuvre.

If anyone has actually had personal experience of doing this, is it
something that I could/should attempt myself?

I have the opportunity of borrowing my daughter's car for a week whilst she
is on holiday, but I don't want to wind up with a totally un-serviceable
vehicle at the end of it!... any advice would be greatly appreciated TIA.

"Ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:3mpi92F189nduU1@individual.net...

> I'm seeking advice, I own a 1990 H reg GM engine 1.7 D Astra diesel 
> estate.
>
> Unfortunately for the last few months I've had a fuel leak from the 
> (Bosch)
> fuel injector pump, which drips tiny amounts of fuel, but only when the
> engine is running, will it fail an MOT (due in November) because of this?
>
> The reason I haven't bothered until now is that if I am prepared to remove
> the pump and take it to a diesel specialist it's going to cost around 200
> (could possibly be more) but because it's a good sound runner I don't mind
> paying this amount.
>
> However on browsing through the Haynes manual it looks like being a bit of 
> a
> brute to remove, requiring a 'puller' to remove the pump sprocket, and
> apparently unless one is very precise in marking the exact way in which it
> comes off the pump may need re-timing.
>
> The main problem appears to be is the type of puller is recommended to
> remove the pump sprocket in such a confined space, as the book shows this
> procedure being carried out with the engine obviously out of the vehicle.
>
> The annoying thing is that I actually replaced the cam belt and water pump
> only a few months before this problem occurred, so I know that there isn't
> exactly very much in the way of room for manoeuvre.
>
> If anyone has actually had personal experience of doing this, is it
> something that I could/should attempt myself?
>
> I have the opportunity of borrowing my daughter's car for a week whilst 
> she
> is on holiday, but I don't want to wind up with a totally un-serviceable
> vehicle at the end of it!... any advice would be greatly appreciated TIA.
>


Does it actually need removing? It could just be a leaking union, gasket, or 
a spindle seal that could be sorted in-situ.

Huw

In article , Ivan says...


> The reason I haven't bothered until now is that if I am prepared to remove
> the pump and take it to a diesel specialist it's going to cost around 200
> (could possibly be more) but because it's a good sound runner I don't mind
> paying this amount.
> 

THe problem isn't in removing the pump but refitting it and getting the 
timing right.


-- 
Conor

If Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened 
rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic 
music.

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:32:58 +0100, Ivan <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote:


> I'm seeking advice, I own a 1990 H reg GM engine 1.7 D Astra diesel  
> estate.
>
> Unfortunately for the last few months I've had a fuel leak from the  
> (Bosch)
> fuel injector pump, which drips tiny amounts of fuel, but only when the
> engine is running, will it fail an MOT (due in November) because of this?
>
> The reason I haven't bothered until now is that if I am prepared to  
> remove
> the pump and take it to a diesel specialist it's going to cost around  
> 200
> (could possibly be more) but because it's a good sound runner I don't  
> mind
> paying this amount.
>
> However on browsing through the Haynes manual it looks like being a bit  
> of a
> brute to remove, requiring a 'puller' to remove the pump sprocket, and
> apparently unless one is very precise in marking the exact way in which  
> it
> comes off the pump may need re-timing.
>
> The main problem appears to be is the type of puller is recommended to
> remove the pump sprocket in such a confined space, as the book shows this
> procedure being carried out with the engine obviously out of the vehicle.
>
> The annoying thing is that I actually replaced the cam belt and water  
> pump
> only a few months before this problem occurred, so I know that there  
> isn't
> exactly very much in the way of room for manoeuvre.
>
> If anyone has actually had personal experience of doing this, is it
> something that I could/should attempt myself?
>
> I have the opportunity of borrowing my daughter's car for a week whilst  
> she
> is on holiday, but I don't want to wind up with a totally un-serviceable
> vehicle at the end of it!... any advice would be greatly appreciated TIA.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


IF it's not leaking enough to be irritating then it'll pass the MOT. Ask  
the garage who are prepared to fix it how much they want to remove & refit  
it, then you can make a sensible decision about the hassle factor.

Duncanwood wrote:


> IF it's not leaking enough to be irritating then it'll pass the MOT. 


No it wont. Well it shouldn't anyway. Any fuel leaks are a fail no
matter how small. Wet leak off pipes are a reason for rejection.

John

"Duncanwood"  wrote in message
news:op.svt6cc064wom51@amy...

> On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:32:58 +0100, Ivan <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> IF it's not leaking enough to be irritating then it'll pass the MOT. Ask
> the garage who are prepared to fix it how much they want to remove & refit
> it, then you can make a sensible decision about the hassle factor.


The problem is that over a period of time of driving up and down motorways,
the underside of the body has a nice noticeable coating of diesel fuel!

I've been quoted by a couple of diesels specialist my area that to do the
complete job including re-calibration could cost around 400 plus Vat, which
means that we're then starting to get to into the realms of younger second
hand equivalent vehicles.

"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3mpviuF17vd04U1@individual.net...

>
> "Ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3mpi92F189nduU1@individual.net...
> > I'm seeking advice, I own a 1990 H reg GM engine 1.7 D Astra diesel
> > estate.
> >
> > Unfortunately for the last few months I've had a fuel leak from the
> > (Bosch)
> > fuel injector pump, which drips tiny amounts of fuel, but only when the
> > engine is running, will it fail an MOT (due in November) because of
this?
> >
>
> Does it actually need removing? It could just be a leaking union, gasket,
or
> a spindle seal that could be sorted in-situ.
>


Unfortunately the leak is from between the main body and the end block where
the injector pipe's screw into.

The two sections are held together by four Torx Bolts and it would appear
that the gasket between them has failed.

Although there is more than enough room for the two sections to be easily be
separated in situ, apparently this is a no-no, and a job that can only be
done with the pump removed and serviced on a bench.



> Huw
>
>

"Ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3mqp9mF15nc5eU1@individual.net...

>
> "Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3mpviuF17vd04U1@individual.net...
> >
> > "Ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:3mpi92F189nduU1@individual.net...
> > > I'm seeking advice, I own a 1990 H reg GM engine 1.7 D Astra diesel
> > > estate.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately for the last few months I've had a fuel leak from the
> > > (Bosch)
> > > fuel injector pump, which drips tiny amounts of fuel, but only when
the
> > > engine is running, will it fail an MOT (due in November) because of
> this?
> > >
> >
> > Does it actually need removing? It could just be a leaking union,
gasket,
> or
> > a spindle seal that could be sorted in-situ.
> >
>
> Unfortunately the leak is from between the main body and the end block
where
> the injector pipe's screw into.
>
> The two sections are held together by four Torx Bolts and it would appear
> that the gasket between them has failed.
>
> Although there is more than enough room for the two sections to be easily
be
> separated in situ, apparently this is a no-no, and a job that can only be
> done with the pump removed and serviced on a bench.
>

Have you tried tightening the torx bolts?

If you take it to an injection specialist, and let them take a look, I'm
pretty sure they will be able to replace the gasket in situ, in under an
hour, so shouldn't be too expensive.

"SimonJ"  wrote in message
news:de9ieb$e7i$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

>
> "Ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3mqp9mF15nc5eU1@individual.net...
> >
> > "Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:3mpviuF17vd04U1@individual.net...
> > >
> > > "Ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3mpi92F189nduU1@individual.net...
> > > > I'm seeking advice, I own a 1990 H reg GM engine 1.7 D Astra diesel
> > > > estate.
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately for the last few months I've had a fuel leak from the
> > > > (Bosch)
> > > > fuel injector pump, which drips tiny amounts of fuel, but only when
> the
> > > > engine is running, will it fail an MOT (due in November) because of
> > this?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Does it actually need removing? It could just be a leaking union,
> gasket,
> > or
> > > a spindle seal that could be sorted in-situ.
> > >
> >
> > Unfortunately the leak is from between the main body and the end block
> where
> > the injector pipe's screw into.
> >
> > The two sections are held together by four Torx Bolts and it would
appear
> > that the gasket between them has failed.
> >
> > Although there is more than enough room for the two sections to be
easily
> be
> > separated in situ, apparently this is a no-no, and a job that can only
be
> > done with the pump removed and serviced on a bench.
> >
> Have you tried tightening the torx bolts?
>
> If you take it to an injection specialist, and let them take a look, I'm
> pretty sure they will be able to replace the gasket in situ, in under an
> hour, so shouldn't be too expensive.
>
>


The bolts are pretty solid, and over tightening with the possibility of
shearing or thread stripping could do a lot more harm than good, at least
it's perfectly driveable and it's only the looming MoT failure which is the
real problem.

I have taken it to a couple of diesel specialists and they have both told me
the same thing, that the pump will have to come out.

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:18:55 +0100, Ivan <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote:


>
> "Duncanwood"  wrote in message
> news:op.svt6cc064wom51@amy...
>> On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:32:58 +0100, Ivan <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> IF it's not leaking enough to be irritating then it'll pass the MOT. Ask
>> the garage who are prepared to fix it how much they want to remove &  
>> refit
>> it, then you can make a sensible decision about the hassle factor.
>
> The problem is that over a period of time of driving up and down  
> motorways,
> the underside of the body has a nice noticeable coating of diesel fuel!
>
> I've been quoted by a couple of diesels specialist my area that to do the
> complete job including re-calibration could cost around 400 plus Vat,  
> which
> means that we're then starting to get to into the realms of younger  
> second
> hand equivalent vehicles.
>
>
>
>
>
>


You could try one from a scrappy.

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:38:50 +0100, Ivan <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote:


>
> "Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3mpviuF17vd04U1@individual.net...
>>
>> "Ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:3mpi92F189nduU1@individual.net...
>> > I'm seeking advice, I own a 1990 H reg GM engine 1.7 D Astra diesel
>> > estate.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately for the last few months I've had a fuel leak from the
>> > (Bosch)
>> > fuel injector pump, which drips tiny amounts of fuel, but only when  
>> the
>> > engine is running, will it fail an MOT (due in November) because of
> this?
>> >
>>
>> Does it actually need removing? It could just be a leaking union,  
>> gasket,
> or
>> a spindle seal that could be sorted in-situ.
>>
>
> Unfortunately the leak is from between the main body and the end block  
> where
> the injector pipe's screw into.
>
> The two sections are held together by four Torx Bolts and it would appear
> that the gasket between them has failed.
>
> Although there is more than enough room for the two sections to be  
> easily be
> separated in situ, apparently this is a no-no, and a job that can only be
> done with the pump removed and serviced on a bench.
>
>
>> Huw
>>
>>
>
>




Yep, when you take that off you reveal the actual pump, & the new gasket  
will potentially screw the fuelling. Plus any dirt will kill the pump.

"Duncanwood"  wrote in message
news:op.svu2bnwo4wom51@amy...

> >
> >
>
> You could try one from a scrappy.
>
>

I've thought of that, but it would take me back to exactly square one, as I
will still need to obtain a sprocket extractor compact enough to do the job
in the confined space, and after refitting a second hand pump from a vehicle
of a similar age and redoing the timing etc, I might then find that I have a
similar problem, maybe in a few months' time.

I've heard it suggested that it's only since the introduction of ultra
low-sulphur diesel fuel that these type of problems have been on the
increase, it allegedly destroys the 'O' rings.

"Ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:3mrhgiF17rnkqU1@individual.net...

>
> "Duncanwood"  wrote in message
> news:op.svu2bnwo4wom51@amy...
>> >
>> >
>>
>> You could try one from a scrappy.
>>
>>
> I've thought of that, but it would take me back to exactly square one, as 
> I
> will still need to obtain a sprocket extractor compact enough to do the 
> job
> in the confined space, and after refitting a second hand pump from a 
> vehicle
> of a similar age and redoing the timing etc, I might then find that I have 
> a
> similar problem, maybe in a few months' time.
>
> I've heard it suggested that it's only since the introduction of ultra
> low-sulphur diesel fuel that these type of problems have been on the
> increase, it allegedly destroys the 'O' rings.
>
>
>
>
>


This is mostly confined to Lucas [now Delphi] DPS and DPA type pumps and is 
mainly confined to the simple 'o' rings that seal throttle spindles where 
they enter the cover.

Huw

>
> The bolts are pretty solid, and over tightening with the possibility of
> shearing or thread stripping could do a lot more harm than good,
>

Agreed, what I meant to say was make sure they are not loose, which you
already have done.




> at least
> it's perfectly driveable and it's only the looming MoT failure which is
the
> real problem.
>

Ok, what I would do in that situation, remove the injector pipes, loosen the
torx bolts, so they are about 1/4" out of the pump and pull the block back
clear of the pump body. You will get a deluge of fuel at this point, as the
pump body is full of fuel during normal running. allow the fuel to drain,
remove the old gasket, then de-grease the joint faces as best you can. smear
a little sealant into the joint, then screw it all back together, and allow
to set before re-filling with fuel. Its not guaranteed to work, as you will
not have good access to clean it up and make sure the sealant has gone all
round the joint, but you lose nothing trying, and you may save the cost and
hassle of a pump rebuild. Be careful you don't pull the block back too far,
the result will be like an explosion in a spring factory! Just far enough to
work on the joint.



> I have taken it to a couple of diesel specialists and they have both told
me
> the same thing, that the pump will have to come out.
>

I cant see why it needs to come out, unless it needs to be held in some sort
if jig to position all the springs and plungers on reassembly.

>
> I've heard it suggested that it's only since the introduction of ultra
> low-sulphur diesel fuel that these type of problems have been on the
> increase, it allegedly destroys the 'O' rings.
>

It's no the 'o' rings that are the problem, its the cam plate and rollers
that tend to disintegrate, due to the poor lubricating properties of low
sulphur diesel.

"SimonJ"  wrote in message 
news:deaa1c$b3f$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

> >
>> I've heard it suggested that it's only since the introduction of ultra
>> low-sulphur diesel fuel that these type of problems have been on the
>> increase, it allegedly destroys the 'O' rings.
>>
> It's no the 'o' rings that are the problem, its the cam plate and rollers
> that tend to disintegrate, due to the poor lubricating properties of low
> sulphur diesel.
>
>


There is absolutely no lubricating issue with either low sulphur or even 
ultra low sulphur fuel. The fuel must meet international lubricity 
standards. I run several 1970's and 80's diesel engines on ultra low sulphur 
diesel with only positive results apart from slightly lower power output.

Huw

"SimonJ"  wrote in message
news:dea9op$a98$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

> >
> > The bolts are pretty solid, and over tightening with the possibility of
> > shearing or thread stripping could do a lot more harm than good,
> >
> Agreed, what I meant to say was make sure they are not loose, which you
> already have done.
>
>
>
> > at least
> > it's perfectly driveable and it's only the looming MoT failure which is
> the
> > real problem.
> >
> Ok, what I would do in that situation, remove the injector pipes, loosen
the
> torx bolts, so they are about 1/4" out of the pump and pull the block back
> clear of the pump body. You will get a deluge of fuel at this point, as
the
> pump body is full of fuel during normal running. allow the fuel to drain,
> remove the old gasket, then de-grease the joint faces as best you can.
smear
> a little sealant into the joint, then screw it all back together, and
allow
> to set before re-filling with fuel. Its not guaranteed to work, as you
will
> not have good access to clean it up and make sure the sealant has gone all
> round the joint, but you lose nothing trying, and you may save the cost
and
> hassle of a pump rebuild. Be careful you don't pull the block back too
far,
> the result will be like an explosion in a spring factory! Just far enough
to
> work on the joint.
>
>
> > I have taken it to a couple of diesel specialists and they have both
told
> me
> > the same thing, that the pump will have to come out.
> >
> I cant see why it needs to come out, unless it needs to be held in some
sort
> if jig to position all the springs and plungers on reassembly.
>
>


However if I attempt as you suggest what sort of gasket will I be liable to
be confronted with, do the Torx bolts have to pass through it, and where
would I be able to purchase it from?
The whole diesel fuel pumps business appears to be a bit like a secret
society, with little or no available information.

Browsing through some American websites a while back I chanced upon one
(that I can't now find) which reckoned that there were repair kits available
that came complete with replacement gaskets, 'O' rings and schematic
diagrams with step-by-step instructions. IIRC it cost around $16,
unfortunately no similar offer appears to exist here in the UK.

"Ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:3mruphF17lceuU1@individual.net...

>
> "SimonJ"  wrote in message
> news:dea9op$a98$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> >
>> > The bolts are pretty solid, and over tightening with the possibility of
>> > shearing or thread stripping could do a lot more harm than good,
>> >
>> Agreed, what I meant to say was make sure they are not loose, which you
>> already have done.
>>
>>
>>
>> > at least
>> > it's perfectly driveable and it's only the looming MoT failure which is
>> the
>> > real problem.
>> >
>> Ok, what I would do in that situation, remove the injector pipes, loosen
> the
>> torx bolts, so they are about 1/4" out of the pump and pull the block 
>> back
>> clear of the pump body. You will get a deluge of fuel at this point, as
> the
>> pump body is full of fuel during normal running. allow the fuel to drain,
>> remove the old gasket, then de-grease the joint faces as best you can.
> smear
>> a little sealant into the joint, then screw it all back together, and
> allow
>> to set before re-filling with fuel. Its not guaranteed to work, as you
> will
>> not have good access to clean it up and make sure the sealant has gone 
>> all
>> round the joint, but you lose nothing trying, and you may save the cost
> and
>> hassle of a pump rebuild. Be careful you don't pull the block back too
> far,
>> the result will be like an explosion in a spring factory! Just far enough
> to
>> work on the joint.
>>
>>
>> > I have taken it to a couple of diesel specialists and they have both
> told
>> me
>> > the same thing, that the pump will have to come out.
>> >
>> I cant see why it needs to come out, unless it needs to be held in some
> sort
>> if jig to position all the springs and plungers on reassembly.
>>
>>
>
> However if I attempt as you suggest what sort of gasket will I be liable 
> to
> be confronted with, do the Torx bolts have to pass through it, and where
> would I be able to purchase it from?
> The whole diesel fuel pumps business appears to be a bit like a secret
> society, with little or no available information.
>
> Browsing through some American websites a while back I chanced upon one
> (that I can't now find) which reckoned that there were repair kits 
> available
> that came complete with replacement gaskets, 'O' rings and schematic
> diagrams with step-by-step instructions. IIRC it cost around $16,
> unfortunately no similar offer appears to exist here in the UK.


When you unbolt that particular part of the pump, you are essentially 
dismantling the working parts of the pump (basically lots of springs and 
attached parts to fly/fall out).
The only feasible way to reinstall everything is to have the pump body 
suitably angled on a work bench.
Plus after being rebuilt, things like fuel delivery and timing ideally have 
to be checked on a test bench.

Fuel pumps aren't really that complicated, but the consequences and likely 
hood of getting something wrong are to great a risk.

"Moray Cuthill"  wrote

 > When you unbolt that particular part of the pump, you are essentially

> dismantling the working parts of the pump (basically lots of springs and 
> attached parts to fly/fall out).
> The only feasible way to reinstall everything is to have the pump body 
> suitably angled on a work bench.
> Plus after being rebuilt, things like fuel delivery and timing ideally 
> have to be checked on a test bench.
>
> Fuel pumps aren't really that complicated, but the consequences and likely 
> hood of getting something wrong are to great a risk.
>


Since he has to have the pump repaired or reconditioned in any event, and it 
is likely to be at a set price, then he has nothing to lose by giving it a 
go.

Huw

"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:3ms3nvF18e65jU1@individual.net...

>
> "Moray Cuthill"  wrote
>
> > When you unbolt that particular part of the pump, you are essentially
>> dismantling the working parts of the pump (basically lots of springs and 
>> attached parts to fly/fall out).
>> The only feasible way to reinstall everything is to have the pump body 
>> suitably angled on a work bench.
>> Plus after being rebuilt, things like fuel delivery and timing ideally 
>> have to be checked on a test bench.
>>
>> Fuel pumps aren't really that complicated, but the consequences and 
>> likely hood of getting something wrong are to great a risk.
>>
>
> Since he has to have the pump repaired or reconditioned in any event, and 
> it is likely to be at a set price, then he has nothing to lose by giving 
> it a go.


He will do if he ends up with a box full of pump bits that the fuel 
specialists have to try and reassemble into something workable.

"Moray Cuthill"  wrote in message
news:4308ff7a$1@news.greennet.net...

>
> "Ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3mruphF17lceuU1@individual.net...
> >
> > "SimonJ"  wrote in message
> > news:dea9op$a98$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> >> >
> >> > The bolts are pretty solid, and over tightening with the possibility
of
> >> > shearing or thread stripping could do a lot more harm than good,
> >> >
> >> Agreed, what I meant to say was make sure they are not loose, which you
> >> already have done.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > at least
> >> > it's perfectly driveable and it's only the looming MoT failure which
is
> >> the
> >> > real problem.
> >> >
> >> Ok, what I would do in that situation, remove the injector pipes,
loosen
> > the
> >> torx bolts, so they are about 1/4" out of the pump and pull the block
> >> back
> >> clear of the pump body. You will get a deluge of fuel at this point, as
> > the
> >> pump body is full of fuel during normal running. allow the fuel to
drain,
> >> remove the old gasket, then de-grease the joint faces as best you can.
> > smear
> >> a little sealant into the joint, then screw it all back together, and
> > allow
> >> to set before re-filling with fuel. Its not guaranteed to work, as you
> > will
> >> not have good access to clean it up and make sure the sealant has gone
> >> all
> >> round the joint, but you lose nothing trying, and you may save the cost
> > and
> >> hassle of a pump rebuild. Be careful you don't pull the block back too
> > far,
> >> the result will be like an explosion in a spring factory! Just far
enough
> > to
> >> work on the joint.
> >>
> >>
> >> > I have taken it to a couple of diesel specialists and they have both
> > told
> >> me
> >> > the same thing, that the pump will have to come out.
> >> >
> >> I cant see why it needs to come out, unless it needs to be held in some
> > sort
> >> if jig to position all the springs and plungers on reassembly.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > However if I attempt as you suggest what sort of gasket will I be liable
> > to
> > be confronted with, do the Torx bolts have to pass through it, and where
> > would I be able to purchase it from?
> > The whole diesel fuel pumps business appears to be a bit like a secret
> > society, with little or no available information.
> >
> > Browsing through some American websites a while back I chanced upon one
> > (that I can't now find) which reckoned that there were repair kits
> > available
> > that came complete with replacement gaskets, 'O' rings and schematic
> > diagrams with step-by-step instructions. IIRC it cost around $16,
> > unfortunately no similar offer appears to exist here in the UK.
>
> When you unbolt that particular part of the pump, you are essentially
> dismantling the working parts of the pump (basically lots of springs and
> attached parts to fly/fall out).
> The only feasible way to reinstall everything is to have the pump body
> suitably angled on a work bench.
> Plus after being rebuilt, things like fuel delivery and timing ideally
have
> to be checked on a test bench.
>
> Fuel pumps aren't really that complicated, but the consequences and likely
> hood of getting something wrong are to great a risk.
>
>


Thanks, as it's working all OK I think that I had better leave well alone,
as I don't feel competent enough to have-a-go myself.

However as I pointed out in my original post, I would be prepared to remove
the pump from the car and take it to a diesel service centre for repair...
I've been quoted around 190 plus Vat, if I take it to them, which is more
than I paid for the bloody car.. (breaks down into tears!)

The main thing I really would like to know, is where can I obtain the
'correct' type of sprocket puller which will enable me to remove it from the
car?

Or should I just call it a day, drive it to the nearest scrapyard, and then
look around for something a bit more recent for around seven or eight
hundred pounds?

> > > When you unbolt that particular part of the pump, you are essentially
> >> dismantling the working parts of the pump (basically lots of springs
and
> >> attached parts to fly/fall out).
> >> The only feasible way to reinstall everything is to have the pump body
> >> suitably angled on a work bench.
> >> Plus after being rebuilt, things like fuel delivery and timing ideally
> >> have to be checked on a test bench.
> >>
> >> Fuel pumps aren't really that complicated, but the consequences and
> >> likely hood of getting something wrong are to great a risk.
> >>
> >
> > Since he has to have the pump repaired or reconditioned in any event,
and
> > it is likely to be at a set price, then he has nothing to lose by giving
> > it a go.
>
> He will do if he ends up with a box full of pump bits that the fuel
> specialists have to try and reassemble into something workable.
>
>

If they are rebuilding the pump anyway, then he has simply saved them the
job of dismantling it.

"Ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3mruphF17lceuU1@individual.net...

>
> "SimonJ"  wrote in message
> news:dea9op$a98$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> > >
> > > The bolts are pretty solid, and over tightening with the possibility
of
> > > shearing or thread stripping could do a lot more harm than good,
> > >
> > Agreed, what I meant to say was make sure they are not loose, which you
> > already have done.
> >
> >
> >
> > > at least
> > > it's perfectly driveable and it's only the looming MoT failure which
is
> > the
> > > real problem.
> > >
> > Ok, what I would do in that situation, remove the injector pipes, loosen
> the
> > torx bolts, so they are about 1/4" out of the pump and pull the block
back
> > clear of the pump body. You will get a deluge of fuel at this point, as
> the
> > pump body is full of fuel during normal running. allow the fuel to
drain,
> > remove the old gasket, then de-grease the joint faces as best you can.
> smear
> > a little sealant into the joint, then screw it all back together, and
> allow
> > to set before re-filling with fuel. Its not guaranteed to work, as you
> will
> > not have good access to clean it up and make sure the sealant has gone
all
> > round the joint, but you lose nothing trying, and you may save the cost
> and
> > hassle of a pump rebuild. Be careful you don't pull the block back too
> far,
> > the result will be like an explosion in a spring factory! Just far
enough
> to
> > work on the joint.
> >
> >
> > > I have taken it to a couple of diesel specialists and they have both
> told
> > me
> > > the same thing, that the pump will have to come out.
> > >
> > I cant see why it needs to come out, unless it needs to be held in some
> sort
> > if jig to position all the springs and plungers on reassembly.
> >
> >
>
> However if I attempt as you suggest what sort of gasket will I be liable
to
> be confronted with, do the Torx bolts have to pass through it, and where
> would I be able to purchase it from?
>

I think (though I am not certain) it is a thin paper gasket. If I am
correct, then you will have to rip the gasket to remove it, which is why I
suggested sealant to reasemble, as you will not be able to fit a new gasket.
If, however, it is an O ring, then you should be able to fit a new one by
streching it over the block to get it into place, so making the job even
easier.


> The whole diesel fuel pumps business appears to be a bit like a secret
> society, with little or no available information.
>

Bosch produce a wide range of books telling you exactly how the pumps work.
http://www.bentleypublishers.com/product.htm?code=h144

> >> I've heard it suggested that it's only since the introduction of ultra
> >> low-sulphur diesel fuel that these type of problems have been on the
> >> increase, it allegedly destroys the 'O' rings.
> >>
> > It's no the 'o' rings that are the problem, its the cam plate and
rollers
> > that tend to disintegrate, due to the poor lubricating properties of low
> > sulphur diesel.
> >
> >
>
> There is absolutely no lubricating issue with either low sulphur or even
> ultra low sulphur fuel. The fuel must meet international lubricity
> standards. I run several 1970's and 80's diesel engines on ultra low
sulphur
> diesel with only positive results apart from slightly lower power output.
>

Well it is a pretty well known fact that since the  introduction of low
sulphur diesel fuel, there has been a problem with the cam plate breaking up
on VE pumps.

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:14:02 +0100, SimonJ  wrote:


>> > > When you unbolt that particular part of the pump, you are  
>> essentially
>> >> dismantling the working parts of the pump (basically lots of springs
> and
>> >> attached parts to fly/fall out).
>> >> The only feasible way to reinstall everything is to have the pump  
>> body
>> >> suitably angled on a work bench.
>> >> Plus after being rebuilt, things like fuel delivery and timing  
>> ideally
>> >> have to be checked on a test bench.
>> >>
>> >> Fuel pumps aren't really that complicated, but the consequences and
>> >> likely hood of getting something wrong are to great a risk.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Since he has to have the pump repaired or reconditioned in any event,
> and
>> > it is likely to be at a set price, then he has nothing to lose by  
>> giving
>> > it a go.
>>
>> He will do if he ends up with a box full of pump bits that the fuel
>> specialists have to try and reassemble into something workable.
>>
>>
> If they are rebuilding the pump anyway, then he has simply saved them the
> job of dismantling it.
>
>




Yep, cos if you're given a box of bits you throw it in the recycling bin &  
charge for a reconditioned one.

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:04:40 +0100, Ivan <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote:


>
> "Moray Cuthill"  wrote in message
> news:4308ff7a$1@news.greennet.net...
>>
>> "Ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:3mruphF17lceuU1@individual.net...
>> >
>> > "SimonJ"  wrote in message
>> > news:dea9op$a98$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> >> >
>> >> > The bolts are pretty solid, and over tightening with the  
>> possibility
> of
>> >> > shearing or thread stripping could do a lot more harm than good,
>> >> >
>> >> Agreed, what I meant to say was make sure they are not loose, which  
>> you
>> >> already have done.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > at least
>> >> > it's perfectly driveable and it's only the looming MoT failure  
>> which
> is
>> >> the
>> >> > real problem.
>> >> >
>> >> Ok, what I would do in that situation, remove the injector pipes,
> loosen
>> > the
>> >> torx bolts, so they are about 1/4" out of the pump and pull the block
>> >> back
>> >> clear of the pump body. You will get a deluge of fuel at this point,  
>> as
>> > the
>> >> pump body is full of fuel during normal running. allow the fuel to
> drain,
>> >> remove the old gasket, then de-grease the joint faces as best you  
>> can.
>> > smear
>> >> a little sealant into the joint, then screw it all back together, and
>> > allow
>> >> to set before re-filling with fuel. Its not guaranteed to work, as  
>> you
>> > will
>> >> not have good access to clean it up and make sure the sealant has  
>> gone
>> >> all
>> >> round the joint, but you lose nothing trying, and you may save the  
>> cost
>> > and
>> >> hassle of a pump rebuild. Be careful you don't pull the block back  
>> too
>> > far,
>> >> the result will be like an explosion in a spring factory! Just far
> enough
>> > to
>> >> work on the joint.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > I have taken it to a couple of diesel specialists and they have  
>> both
>> > told
>> >> me
>> >> > the same thing, that the pump will have to come out.
>> >> >
>> >> I cant see why it needs to come out, unless it needs to be held in  
>> some
>> > sort
>> >> if jig to position all the springs and plungers on reassembly.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > However if I attempt as you suggest what sort of gasket will I be  
>> liable
>> > to
>> > be confronted with, do the Torx bolts have to pass through it, and  
>> where
>> > would I be able to purchase it from?
>> > The whole diesel fuel pumps business appears to be a bit like a secret
>> > society, with little or no available information.
>> >
>> > Browsing through some American websites a while back I chanced upon  
>> one
>> > (that I can't now find) which reckoned that there were repair kits
>> > available
>> > that came complete with replacement gaskets, 'O' rings and schematic
>> > diagrams with step-by-step instructions. IIRC it cost around $16,
>> > unfortunately no similar offer appears to exist here in the UK.
>>
>> When you unbolt that particular part of the pump, you are essentially
>> dismantling the working parts of the pump (basically lots of springs and
>> attached parts to fly/fall out).
>> The only feasible way to reinstall everything is to have the pump body
>> suitably angled on a work bench.
>> Plus after being rebuilt, things like fuel delivery and timing ideally
> have
>> to be checked on a test bench.
>>
>> Fuel pumps aren't really that complicated, but the consequences and  
>> likely
>> hood of getting something wrong are to great a risk.
>>
>>
>
> Thanks, as it's working all OK I think that I had better leave well  
> alone,
> as I don't feel competent enough to have-a-go myself.
>
> However as I pointed out in my original post, I would be prepared to  
> remove
> the pump from the car and take it to a diesel service centre for  
> repair...
> I've been quoted around 190 plus Vat, if I take it to them, which is  
> more
> than I paid for the bloody car.. (breaks down into tears!)
>
> The main thing I really would like to know, is where can I obtain the
> 'correct' type of sprocket puller which will enable me to remove it from  
> the
> car?
>
> Or should I just call it a day, drive it to the nearest scrapyard, and  
> then
> look around for something a bit more recent for around seven or eight
> hundred pounds?
>
>
>


Something like
http://www.premiertools.co.uk/item2614.htm,

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:20:28 +0100, SimonJ  wrote:


>
> "Ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3mruphF17lceuU1@individual.net...
>>
>> "SimonJ"  wrote in message
>> news:dea9op$a98$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> > >
>> > > The bolts are pretty solid, and over tightening with the possibility
> of
>> > > shearing or thread stripping could do a lot more harm than good,
>> > >
>> > Agreed, what I meant to say was make sure they are not loose, which  
>> you
>> > already have done.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > at least
>> > > it's perfectly driveable and it's only the looming MoT failure which
> is
>> > the
>> > > real problem.
>> > >
>> > Ok, what I would do in that situation, remove the injector pipes,  
>> loosen
>> the
>> > torx bolts, so they are about 1/4" out of the pump and pull the block
> back
>> > clear of the pump body. You will get a deluge of fuel at this point,  
>> as
>> the
>> > pump body is full of fuel during normal running. allow the fuel to
> drain,
>> > remove the old gasket, then de-grease the joint faces as best you can.
>> smear
>> > a little sealant into the joint, then screw it all back together, and
>> allow
>> > to set before re-filling with fuel. Its not guaranteed to work, as you
>> will
>> > not have good access to clean it up and make sure the sealant has gone
> all
>> > round the joint, but you lose nothing trying, and you may save the  
>> cost
>> and
>> > hassle of a pump rebuild. Be careful you don't pull the block back too
>> far,
>> > the result will be like an explosion in a spring factory! Just far
> enough
>> to
>> > work on the joint.
>> >
>> >
>> > > I have taken it to a couple of diesel specialists and they have both
>> told
>> > me
>> > > the same thing, that the pump will have to come out.
>> > >
>> > I cant see why it needs to come out, unless it needs to be held in  
>> some
>> sort
>> > if jig to position all the springs and plungers on reassembly.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> However if I attempt as you suggest what sort of gasket will I be liable
> to
>> be confronted with, do the Torx bolts have to pass through it, and where
>> would I be able to purchase it from?
>>
> I think (though I am not certain) it is a thin paper gasket. If I am
> correct, then you will have to rip the gasket to remove it, which is why  
> I
> suggested sealant to reasemble, as you will not be able to fit a new  
> gasket.
> If, however, it is an O ring, then you should be able to fit a new one by
> streching it over the block to get it into place, so making the job even
> easier.
>
>> The whole diesel fuel pumps business appears to be a bit like a secret
>> society, with little or no available information.
>>
> Bosch produce a wide range of books telling you exactly how the pumps  
> work.
> http://www.bentleypublishers.com/product.htm?code=h144
>
>
>
>



Which is fine, but if you're repairing them commercially you have the the  
adapters to let you set the internal pressures & the fuel metering system  
to let you set the pump up, they're suffeciently expensive that even  
though I know how to use them it wouldn't occur to me to try & reset a  
pump on a DIY basis. & if you've not timed it up right then it'll cost you  
more in fuel than you'll ever save.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Huw"
<hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> saying something like:


>There is absolutely no lubricating issue with either low sulphur or even 
>ultra low sulphur fuel. The fuel must meet international lubricity 
>standards. I run several 1970's and 80's diesel engines on ultra low sulphur 
>diesel with only positive results apart from slightly lower power output.


Really? You must get in touch with the HGV fleet owners who were faced
with costs of thousands of pounds for pump repair and replacement after
the introduction of ULSD and tell them they were totally wrong.

After all, none of yours were affected, so it must be true.
-- 

Dave
SE6a

"Grimly Curmudgeon"  wrote in message 
news:m93kg11r20lnt4ibpgpho7n0fe58lrpbj6@4ax.com...

> We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
> drugs began to take hold. I remember "Huw"
> <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> saying something like:
>
>>There is absolutely no lubricating issue with either low sulphur or even
>>ultra low sulphur fuel. The fuel must meet international lubricity
>>standards. I run several 1970's and 80's diesel engines on ultra low 
>>sulphur
>>diesel with only positive results apart from slightly lower power output.
>
> Really? You must get in touch with the HGV fleet owners who were faced
> with costs of thousands of pounds for pump repair and replacement after
> the introduction of ULSD and tell them they were totally wrong.
>
> After all, none of yours were affected, so it must be true.


It's a load of bull. All problems were already sorted by the time it was 
introduced to most of Europe including the UK because it had been around in 
Scandinavia for some time. They did find early on that the lubricity was 
insufficient and standards were quickly set to offset this, certainly before 
it appeared in the UK.
Injector pumps do fail but it is nice to be able to blame it on something. 
High pressure rotary pumps are less reliable than lower pressure ones and 
in-line pumps are very robust generally.
I personally run over 30 diesel engines at any one time, some with less than 
optimal servicing. It so happens that I am very involved with a dealer park 
of many hundreds of medium diesels of mainly 2litre to 8.2litre engines with 
a mixture of pump types and ages from the late 1950's to latest common rail. 
Some are used with ULSD and some with slightly higher sulphur red diesel. It 
is remarkable how few pumps need any unscheduled maintenance or repairs 
generally. By far the majority of pump problems are caused by water 
pollution with a sprinkling of spoilt VP30 type pumps seized due to dry 
running for a few moments, usually due to running out of fuel and using 
incorrect procedure during restarting.

There was no different rate of failure even when LSD was introduced some six 
years ago AFAICS. Maybe a pump repair specialist doing several hundred units 
per year could identify a bleep but it was not something to worry about then 
and it certainly is not now.

Huw

"Duncanwood"  wrote in message
news:op.svvrh7tu4wom51@amy...

> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:04:40 +0100, Ivan <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >


The main thing I really would like to know, is where can I obtain the
'correct' type of sprocket puller which will enable me to remove it from
 the car?


>
> Something like
> http://www.premiertools.co.uk/item2614.htm,
>
>


Thanks Duncan I might well be interested, as I've located a pump at a
'fairly' local scrapyard (they want 60 for it) if I do go down that road,
let's pray that after all the hassle of removal and fitting that it's better
than the existing one!

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 21:07:12 +0100, Ivan <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote:


>
> "Duncanwood"  wrote in message
> news:op.svvrh7tu4wom51@amy...
>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:04:40 +0100, Ivan <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>
> The main thing I really would like to know, is where can I obtain the
> 'correct' type of sprocket puller which will enable me to remove it from
>  the car?
>
>>
>> Something like
>> http://www.premiertools.co.uk/item2614.htm,
>>
>>
>
> Thanks Duncan I might well be interested, as I've located a pump at a
> 'fairly' local scrapyard (they want 60 for it) if I do go down that  
> road,
> let's pray that after all the hassle of removal and fitting that it's  
> better
> than the existing one!
>
>
>
>


If it's a scrap motor it's easier to "modify" the car to get the old one  
out :-) IIRC you can make a normal puller fit by shortening the centre  
shaft with a grinder  & using short allen bolts as the attachments.

"Duncanwood"  wrote in message
news:op.sv7t6pxt4wom51@amy...

> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 21:07:12 +0100, Ivan <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > "Duncanwood"  wrote in message
> > news:op.svvrh7tu4wom51@amy...
> >> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:04:40 +0100, Ivan <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >
> > The main thing I really would like to know, is where can I obtain the
> > 'correct' type of sprocket puller which will enable me to remove it from
> >  the car?
> >
> >>
> >> Something like
> >> http://www.premiertools.co.uk/item2614.htm,
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Thanks Duncan I might well be interested, as I've located a pump at a
> > 'fairly' local scrapyard (they want 60 for it) if I do go down that
> > road,
> > let's pray that after all the hassle of removal and fitting that it's
> > better
> > than the existing one!
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> If it's a scrap motor it's easier to "modify" the car to get the old one
> out :-) IIRC you can make a normal puller fit by shortening the centre
> shaft with a grinder  & using short allen bolts as the attachments.
>
>

According to the Haynes manual, unless one is careful in marking their
original positions disturbing the three existing bolts on the sprocket (to
fit a puller) can mean that the fuel pump will have to be re-timed, which
involves using a DTI tool with an extra-long probe.

Something I don't wish to get involved with, so if I can obtain a pump with
its original (undisturbed) sprocket, then it will make things a whole lot
easier.

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:08:02 +0100, Ivan <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote:


>
> "Duncanwood"  wrote in message
> news:op.sv7t6pxt4wom51@amy...
>> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 21:07:12 +0100, Ivan <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > "Duncanwood"  wrote in message
>> > news:op.svvrh7tu4wom51@amy...
>> >> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:04:40 +0100, Ivan <ivan'H'older@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >
>> > The main thing I really would like to know, is where can I obtain the
>> > 'correct' type of sprocket puller which will enable me to remove it  
>> from
>> >  the car?
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Something like
>> >> http://www.premiertools.co.uk/item2614.htm,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > Thanks Duncan I might well be interested, as I've located a pump at a
>> > 'fairly' local scrapyard (they want 60 for it) if I do go down that
>> > road,
>> > let's pray that after all the hassle of removal and fitting that it's
>> > better
>> > than the existing one!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> If it's a scrap motor it's easier to "modify" the car to get the old one
>> out :-) IIRC you can make a normal puller fit by shortening the centre
>> shaft with a grinder  & using short allen bolts as the attachments.
>>
>>
> According to the Haynes manual, unless one is careful in marking their
> original positions disturbing the three existing bolts on the sprocket  
> (to
> fit a puller) can mean that the fuel pump will have to be re-timed, which
> involves using a DTI tool with an extra-long probe.
>
> Something I don't wish to get involved with, so if I can obtain a pump  
> with
> its original (undisturbed) sprocket, then it will make things a whole lot
> easier.
>


That's the case. Retiming isn't massively difficult though & any decent  
diesel specialist won't charge much to do it on the car. Carefully  
scribing a line on the end of the pump drive shaft & pulley should stop it  
being a problem.