Hello everybody

I was wondering if those of you living in the Northwest (say from Cheshire
up to the border, and including West Yorkshire) would be good enough to
name any local real ale magazines which CAMRA or other people publish.  I
am trying to find more detailed and local sources of info for pub visits
and trips out than simply relying on the GBG all the time.  

Many thanks in advance.  I know I could probably Google away for an hour or
two but thought it might be quicker to ask here.

-- 
Cliff Laine, The Old Lard Factory, Lancaster  http://www.loobynet.com
* remove any trace of rudeness before you reply *

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using words well is a social virtue.  Use 'fortuitous' once more to
mean 'fortunate' and you move an English word another step towards
the dustbin.  If your mistake took hold, no one who valued clarity
would be able to use the word again.

   John Whale

>
> I was wondering if those of you living in the Northwest (say from Cheshire
> up to the border, and including West Yorkshire) would be good enough to
> name any local real ale magazines which CAMRA or other people publish.  I
> am trying to find more detailed and local sources of info for pub visits
> and trips out than simply relying on the GBG all the time.




Try http://mywebpage.netscape.com/openingtimes/

It's the Stockport & South Manchester Camra mag - pretty excellent it is
too.

eyejay  wrote:

>
> Try http://mywebpage.netscape.com/openingtimes/
>
> It's the Stockport & South Manchester Camra mag - pretty excellent it
> is too.



Well, the magazine is excellent - the website is just a text version of the 
articles.

-- 
http://www.stockportpubs.org.uk
"If a river bridge were not guarded by a parapet, the slackness of the
defaulting authority deserves the blame, not the people who fall in" -
Lieut. Col. Mervyn O'Gorman.

In message <d1uve8$tm6$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, PeterE 
 writes

>>

"If a river bridge were not guarded by a parapet, the slackness of the
defaulting authority deserves the blame, not the people who fall in" -
Lieut. Col. Mervyn O'Gorman.


That's a bit modern!

There was a Victorian lawsuit in which the widow of a brewery worker 
sued the brewery.  The chap had fallen into an unguarded floor-level 
copper and boiled alive (you can see a small one at one of the Black 
Country breweries, now with a recent-looking guardrail.)
The judge found that if her husband hadn't wanted to take the risk he 
needn't have taken the job, and found against her.

I wouldn't mention it, but it's the history of Real Ale.

-- 
Sue  ]:(:)

Sue <Sue@blackhole.invalid> wrote:

> In message <d1uve8$tm6$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, PeterE
>  writes
>>>
> "If a river bridge were not guarded by a parapet, the slackness of the
> defaulting authority deserves the blame, not the people who fall in" -
> Lieut. Col. Mervyn O'Gorman.
>
> That's a bit modern!


It dates from the early 1940s. It makes a fundamental point about road 
safety that is rather more relevant to some other groups I post to.

A modern example is the provision of central reservation barriers on 
motorways and similar high-speed roads.

-- 
http://www.stockportpubs.org.uk
"If a river bridge were not guarded by a parapet, the slackness of the
defaulting authority deserves the blame, not the people who fall in" -
Lieut. Col. Mervyn O'Gorman.

In article , loobyloo
 wrote:

> Hello everybody

> I was wondering if those of you living in the Northwest (say from
> Cheshire up to the border, and including West Yorkshire) would be
> good enough to name any local real ale magazines which CAMRA or
> other people publish.  


What Ales - West Cumbria and Western Lakes.

All text is online at the site below. (apart from the current issue,
which I am about to start)

I'm happy to advise on good trips in our area!

-- 
Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes) www.cumbriacamra.org.uk
Whitehaven Beer Festival: Sept 30th & Oct 1st 2005 (www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk)

All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand.

Chris de Cordova wrote:

> In article , loobyloo
>  wrote:
>> Hello everybody
>
>> I was wondering if those of you living in the Northwest (say from
>> Cheshire up to the border, and including West Yorkshire) would be
>> good enough to name any local real ale magazines which CAMRA or
>> other people publish.
>
> What Ales - West Cumbria and Western Lakes.
>
> All text is online at the site below. (apart from the current issue,
> which I am about to start)
>
> I'm happy to advise on good trips in our area!


I'll be in the Furness area soon and there look to be plenty of good places 
to visit.
Can you let me have your top 5 pubs in descending order  please Chris :-)

-- 

Brett

In article <42472419$1$67377$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,
   Brett...  wrote:

> Chris de Cordova wrote:
> > In article , loobyloo
> >  wrote:
> >> Hello everybody
> >
> >> I was wondering if those of you living in the Northwest (say from
> >> Cheshire up to the border, and including West Yorkshire) would be
> >> good enough to name any local real ale magazines which CAMRA or other
> >> people publish.

> > What Ales - West Cumbria and Western Lakes.

> > All text is online at the site below. (apart from the current issue,
> > which I am about to start)

> > I'm happy to advise on good trips in our area!

> I'll be in the Furness area soon and there look to be plenty of good
> places to visit. Can you let me have your top 5 pubs in descending
> order  please Chris :-)


All smoke free ;-)

-- 
Steve Pampling

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:22:37 +0100, Brett... wrote
(in message <42472419$1$67377$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>):


> I'll be in the Furness area soon and there look to be plenty of good places 
> to visit.
> Can you let me have your top 5 pubs in descending order  please Chris :-)


A good rule of thumb is avoid Barrow.

> A good rule of thumb is avoid Barrow.


Well yes, but the Ambrose on Duke Street is doing lots of good beer
including Belgians.

If you do have the misfortune of visiting Barrow you can now get good
beer. There also a Wetherspoons which is cleaner than an average
WSpoons but there's the usual pump clips advertising phantom beers
hassle.

Ulverston's always been better for beer - Barrow's an alcopops town.

JP

In article <42472419$1$67377$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,
   Brett...  wrote:

> Can you let me have your top 5 pubs in descending order  please
> Chris :-)


Prince of Wales, Foxfield (railway station outside front door)
Manor Arms, Great Broughton (bus door to door from Prince of Wales)
Prince of Wales, Foxfield (railway station outside front door)
Manor Arms, Great Broughton (bus door to door from Prince of Wales)
Prince of Wales, Foxfield (railway station outside front door)

Others will have a longer top 5 pubs list but Furness is the next
branch area to ours and I don't know many other pubs very well.

Just off to Foxfield now!!!

-- 
Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes) www.cumbriacamra.org.uk
Whitehaven Beer Festival: Sept 30th & Oct 1st 2005 (www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk)

Santa's helpers are subordinate clauses.

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:38:03 +0100, Jeff Pickthall wrote
(in message ):


> If you do have the misfortune of visiting Barrow you can now get good
> beer. There also a Wetherspoons which is cleaner than an average
> WSpoons but there's the usual pump clips advertising phantom beers
> hassle.


And the fact that in there we've never had a beer that wasn't 'off' in one 
way or another.

In article ,
   Chris de Cordova  wrote:

> In article <42472419$1$67377$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,
>    Brett...  wrote:
> > Can you let me have your top 5 pubs in descending order  please
> > Chris :-)

> Prince of Wales, Foxfield (railway station outside front door)
> Manor Arms, Great Broughton (bus door to door from Prince of Wales)
> Prince of Wales, Foxfield (railway station outside front door)
> Manor Arms, Great Broughton (bus door to door from Prince of Wales)
> Prince of Wales, Foxfield (railway station outside front door)


And the Swan at Ulverston - personally visited just for you, about 4
hours ago! 

5 beers from Hawkshead, including UPA (Ulverston Pale Ale)
a mild and three other Northern beers

-- 
Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes) www.cumbriacamra.org.uk
Whitehaven Beer Festival: Sept 30th & Oct 1st 2005 (www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk)

I'm desperately trying to figure out why kamikaze pilots wore helmets.

Chris de Cordova wrote:

> In article ,
>    Chris de Cordova  wrote:
> > In article <42472419$1$67377$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,
> >    Brett...  wrote:
> > > Can you let me have your top 5 pubs in descending order  please
> > > Chris :-)
>
> > Prince of Wales, Foxfield (railway station outside front door)
> > Manor Arms, Great Broughton (bus door to door from Prince of Wales)
> > Prince of Wales, Foxfield (railway station outside front door)
> > Manor Arms, Great Broughton (bus door to door from Prince of Wales)
> > Prince of Wales, Foxfield (railway station outside front door)
>
> And the Swan at Ulverston - personally visited just for you, about 4
> hours ago!
>
> 5 beers from Hawkshead, including UPA (Ulverston Pale Ale)
> a mild and three other Northern beers
>
> --
> Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes)

www.cumbriacamra.org.uk

> Whitehaven Beer Festival: Sept 30th & Oct 1st 2005

(www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk)

As well as those mentioned by Chris, I'd heartily recommend the
Anglers, Haverthwaite and White Hart, Bouth. Both these pubs are just
off the A590 as you enter the Furness Peninsula. Two pubs to try in
Dalton are the Brown Cow, just below the church, and the other one's
the Black Dog, about a mile outside of town, but possibly one of my all
time favourites.

John Mulholland

In answer to the OP -
Wirral has 'WirrAle Drinker' - www.camrawirral.org.uk
Cheshire has 'Out Inn Cheshire' - www.outinncheshire.co.uk
Liverpool has 'Mersey Drinker' - www.merseycamra.org.uk
(& I've advised them all to the Betty Fjord Clinic for Wordplay Addicts
& those with Serious Punning Disorders)
cheers
MikeMcG

In answer to the OP -
Wirral has 'WirrAle Drinker' - www.camrawirral.org.uk
Cheshire has 'Out Inn Cheshire' - www.outinncheshire.co.uk
Liverpool has 'Mersey Drinker' - www.merseycamra.org.uk
(& I've advised them all to attend the Betty Fjord Clinic for Wordplay
Addicts & those with Serious Punning Disorders)
cheers
MikeMcG

MikeMcG  wrote:

>
> Cheshire has 'Out Inn Cheshire' - www.outinncheshire.co.uk



Last revised April 27, 2004 :-(

-- 
http://www.stockportpubs.org.uk
"If a river bridge were not guarded by a parapet, the slackness of the
defaulting authority deserves the blame, not the people who fall in" -
Lieut. Col. Mervyn O'Gorman.

Chris de Cordova wrote:

> In article <42472419$1$67377$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,
>   Brett...  wrote:
>> Can you let me have your top 5 pubs in descending order  please
>> Chris :-)
>
> Prince of Wales, Foxfield (railway station outside front door)
> Manor Arms, Great Broughton (bus door to door from Prince of Wales)
> Prince of Wales, Foxfield (railway station outside front door)
> Manor Arms, Great Broughton (bus door to door from Prince of Wales)
> Prince of Wales, Foxfield (railway station outside front door)
>
> Others will have a longer top 5 pubs list but Furness is the next
> branch area to ours and I don't know many other pubs very well.
>
> Just off to Foxfield now!!!


Thanks
I've actually found out that we'll be stopping near Ings so the Watermill is 
on our list.
I guess that is a little further NorthEast.
Any other  "musts" in that direction?

-- 

Brett

In article <4249995e$0$83093$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net>,
   Brett...  wrote:

>

> Thanks I've actually found out that we'll be stopping near Ings so
> the Watermill is on our list. I guess that is a little further
> NorthEast. Any other  "musts" in that direction?


Eagle & Child, Staveley comes to mind


thinking now.....

-- 
Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes) www.cumbriacamra.org.uk
Whitehaven Beer Festival: Sept 30th & Oct 1st 2005 (www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk)

Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

loobyloo wrote:

> Hello everybody
>
> I was wondering if those of you living in the Northwest (say from
> Cheshire up to the border, and including West Yorkshire) would be
> good enough to name any local real ale magazines which CAMRA or other
> people publish.  I am trying to find more detailed and local sources
> of info for pub visits and trips out than simply relying on the GBG
> all the time.
>
> Many thanks in advance.  I know I could probably Google away for an
> hour or two but thought it might be quicker to ask here.


As you already know: Opening Times (Stockport and South Manchester).

Also What's Doing (North Manchester) and Out Inn Cheshire (Macclesfield):

http://www.joyce.whitchurch.btinternet.co.uk/norman/wdindex.htm

http://www.outinncheshire.co.uk/

A bit further south: Potters Bar (Camra Potteries).

http://www.camrapotteries.co.uk/

Brian

Jeff Pickthall wrote:

>> A good rule of thumb is avoid Barrow.
>
> Well yes, but the Ambrose on Duke Street is doing lots of good beer
> including Belgians.
>
> If you do have the misfortune of visiting Barrow you can now get good
> beer. There also a Wetherspoons which is cleaner than an average
> WSpoons but there's the usual pump clips advertising phantom beers
> hassle.
>
> Ulverston's always been better for beer


Used to have a nice brewery called Hartleys as well...

Brian

PeterE wrote:

> MikeMcG  wrote:
>>
>> Cheshire has 'Out Inn Cheshire' - www.outinncheshire.co.uk
>
>
> Last revised April 27, 2004 :-(


Good job I'm in High Peak and North East Cheshire then. BTW What's their 
newsletter called? :-(

Brian

Which must have been one of the least lamented closures I've ever seen.
A picturesque brewery in the town centre but their beer made ditchwater
seem attractive by comparison - and the same is true of the Hartleys
brand under Robinsons.

JP

Thank you very much to everyone who's replied so far.  There are several
new ones there (to me) to investigate.

-- 
Cliff Laine, The Old Lard Factory, Lancaster  http://www.loobynet.com
* remove any trace of rudeness before you reply *

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using words well is a social virtue.  Use 'fortuitous' once more to
mean 'fortunate' and you move an English word another step towards
the dustbin.  If your mistake took hold, no one who valued clarity
would be able to use the word again.

   John Whale

Not tried Hartley's recently, but I was in the Arden Arms a week or two
ago (GBG listed Stockport pub, IIRC current Stocky POTY) & while the
firkin of Old Tom was still fizzing thru its soft spile in the warmth
of the bar & therefore not on sale (grrrr, bad timing!) we tried some
of the ordinary Robbies beer instead.

With the exception of the feline brew, I've always thought of Robbies
as just another dull regional brewery making boring brown beer, but in
this pub, presumably with great cellaring & good turnover, the mild was
pretty good but the ordinary strength bitter really was a thing of
beauty - fresh, hoppy, balanced & just delicious.

We were all pleasantly surprised & a little reluctant to leave - a
quick half turned into a very enjoyable couple of pints, before we
pounced on Oddbins in search of their small range of passable to good
beer (Little Creatures, Lindeman's Cassis, Hopback SL, etc.) on the way
to a family house party.
cheers,
MikeMcG.

In article ,
   Jeff Pickthall  wrote:

> their beer made ditchwater
> seem attractive by comparison - 


Not true - it was pure nectar! From 1984, when I first moved into
Cumbria, until brewery closure, It was absolutely my all-time
favourite beer, despite much exposure to others.

Never surpassed or even matched .... until the Bristol AGM ....
when I first came across Exmoor Gold - as it was then.  

Hartley's XB is much lamented, even now.


> and the same is true of the Hartleys
> brand under Robinsons.


ah - I might agree with you there.

-- 
Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes) www.cumbriacamra.org.uk
Whitehaven Beer Festival: Sept 30th & Oct 1st 2005 (www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk)

I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.

MikeMcG wrote:

>
> With the exception of the feline brew, I've always thought of Robbies
> as just another dull regional brewery making boring brown beer, but in
> this pub, presumably with great cellaring & good turnover, the mild
> was pretty good but the ordinary strength bitter really was a thing of
> beauty - fresh, hoppy, balanced & just delicious.
>


Perhaps there is is less bad beer brewed than we might think?

I think a number of "common" beers that are generally regarded as dull and 
insipid are actually poor because of the way they are looked after, either 
in the cellar or as a result of a tortuous distribution system.

Perhaps we all need to be more open minded and instead of always going for 
the sexy guest beer, trying the "regular" which after all may be as Mike 
found it - "fresh, hoppy, balanced & just delicious".

Recently I've tried the following beers which as so often bland and insipid 
and found them to be magnificent in trusted pubs:

Black Sheep Bitter
Wadworth 6X
Theakston BB (probably from Masham)
Banks's Bitter

However I've still not found any really good examples of the following in 
the last year:

Tetley Bitter
Wells Bombardier
Morland Old Speckled Hen
Ruddles Bitter
Greene King IPA (I know, I know)

-- 

Brett

In article <424aa611$0$67362$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,
   Brett...  wrote:

> Greene King IPA (I know, I know)



I had never tasted this until a recent visit to Cambridge. We stayed
at a village pub with it on and I tried it with a completely open
mind - and wondered: "why on earth ....?" Bland, boring, not too
nice, really.

Then the next day we went into a GBG pub in Cambridge
(Boatman/something/ of the Thames?). 

We weren't going to bother with the IPA there - just drank the guest
beer - until the landlord, who obviously took a pride in his beer and
cellarmanship, started talking to us. We were impressed by his
knowledge and commitment and tried his IPA. It was wonderful and we
could see why, if the judges had beer conditioned likethat, they
voted for it.

-- 
Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes) www.cumbriacamra.org.uk
Whitehaven Beer Festival: Sept 30th & Oct 1st 2005 (www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk)

If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple of payments.

In article <424aa611$0$67362$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,
   Brett...  wrote:

> MikeMcG wrote:
> >
> > With the exception of the feline brew, I've always thought of Robbies
> > as just another dull regional brewery making boring brown beer, but in
> > this pub, presumably with great cellaring & good turnover, the mild
> > was pretty good but the ordinary strength bitter really was a thing of
> > beauty - fresh, hoppy, balanced & just delicious.
> >

> Perhaps there is is less bad beer brewed than we might think?

> I think a number of "common" beers that are generally regarded as dull
> and insipid are actually poor because of the way they are looked after,
> either in the cellar or as a result of a tortuous distribution system.

[Snip]

> However I've still not found any really good examples of the following
> in the last year:

> Tetley Bitter Wells Bombardier Morland Old Speckled Hen Ruddles Bitter
> Greene King IPA (I know, I know)


I think that rather harks back to the comments that many made immediately
after the Great British Beer Festival last year - i.e. that the problem
with many of the common beers is not that they are definitely brewed as
"tat" but rather that in many (very many?) cases the cellar keeping is
dire. Often the the beer is hammered to hell and gone by being squirted
through ridiculously small holes in those objects designed to fluff the
head at the expense of taste. Other times the cellarman seems to work on
the basis of cooling the beer after it leaves the cellar (flash cooling)
rather than proper temperature control on the cellar itself.

Bad beer is not that easy to produce from a decent temperature clean
cellar, excellent beer takes effort even from a good cellar, too often the
effort falls between the two and the result is lack lustre.

Lest anyone think that this is  one sided  do note: 
Just the other day Mr Pickthall (was it Steve or Jeff) made disparaging
comments about London Drinker and the lack of condition on the beer so
CAMRA should look carefully at various aspects too.  His outspoken grouch
is probably many other peoples quiet mumble and non-appearance next year.

-- 
Steve Pampling

Brett...  wrote:

> MikeMcG wrote:
>>
>> With the exception of the feline brew, I've always thought of Robbies
>> as just another dull regional brewery making boring brown beer, but
>> in this pub, presumably with great cellaring & good turnover, the
>> mild was pretty good but the ordinary strength bitter really was a thing
>> of beauty - fresh, hoppy, balanced & just delicious.



Robinsons beers do seem to vary more depending on standards of cellarmanship 
than some others. At their best they are in my view certainly the best of 
Greater Manchester's family brewers. The local brewery whose regular beers I 
do find a touch dull are Hydes (and my local is a GBG-listed Hydes pub).

The "average" standard of Robinsons has improved in the past few years as a 
result of the brewery instituting an annual bar & cellar competition.


> Perhaps there is is less bad beer brewed than we might think?
>
> I think a number of "common" beers that are generally regarded as
> dull and insipid are actually poor because of the way they are looked
> after, either in the cellar or as a result of a tortuous distribution
> system.
> Perhaps we all need to be more open minded and instead of always
> going for the sexy guest beer, trying the "regular" which after all
> may be as Mike found it - "fresh, hoppy, balanced & just delicious".


I think there is a widespread tendency within CAMRA when judging beer to set 
too much store by the intrinsic character of a beer rather than how it is 
kept in that particular pub.

Many micro-brewery beers may seem better than regional brewers' products as 
they are only encountered in pubs that care about their beer, and don't have 
to cope with varying standards of cellarmanship across sizeable tied 
estates.

-- 
http://www.stockportpubs.org.uk
"If a river bridge were not guarded by a parapet, the slackness of the
defaulting authority deserves the blame, not the people who fall in" -
Lieut. Col. Mervyn O'Gorman.

I also grouched about the bloody awful hot, humid atmosphere in the
place. Also the awful lighting in the main room was headache-inducing.

I think the often touted notions that bad beer festivals, such as the
one in question, are showcases for real-ale and recruiting ground for
the pro-real-ale cause are hogwash. They only ever preach to the
converted - and the converted are often left asking "is this the best
you can do?".

JP

I also grouched about the bloody awful hot, humid atmosphere in the
place. Also the awful lighting in the main room was headache-inducing.

I think the often touted notions that beer festivals, such as the one
in question, are showcases for real-ale and recruiting ground for the
pro-real-ale cause are hogwash. They only ever preach to the converted
- and the converted are often left asking "is this the best you can
do?", meanwhile the organisers give themselves a pat on the back.

JP

PeterE wrote:

>
> I think there is a widespread tendency within CAMRA when judging beer
> to set too much store by the intrinsic character of a beer rather
> than how it is kept in that particular pub.
>


Are you referring to tasting as in tasting panels, judging as in beer of the 
year competition or the ongoing of judging beer quality as per the NBSS?
Also by "CAMRA" I'm not sure if you are mean it's members per se, a specific 
part of the organisation or someone/thing else.

Can you explain this a little more please?

-- 

Brett

In article ,
   Jeff Pickthall  wrote:

> I also grouched about the bloody awful hot, humid atmosphere in the
> place. Also the awful lighting in the main room was headache-inducing.


Dim dark interspersed with very bright by any chance?


> I think the often touted notions that bad beer festivals, such as the
> one in question, are showcases for real-ale and recruiting ground for
> the pro-real-ale cause are hogwash. They only ever preach to the
> converted - and the converted are often left asking "is this the best
> you can do?".


Food for thought wouldn't you say?

-- 
Steve Pampling

Brett...  wrote:

> PeterE wrote:
>>
>> I think there is a widespread tendency within CAMRA when judging beer
>> to set too much store by the intrinsic character of a beer rather
>> than how it is kept in that particular pub.
>
> Are you referring to tasting as in tasting panels, judging as in beer
> of the year competition or the ongoing of judging beer quality as per
> the NBSS? Also by "CAMRA" I'm not sure if you are mean it's members
> per se, a specific part of the organisation or someone/thing else.
>
> Can you explain this a little more please?


I just mean the general opinion of "the CAMRA member in the pub". "Oakham 
JHB is a great beer." "Greene King IPA is crap." It's not quite as simple as 
that.

From what several people have said, Greene King IPA is capable of scaling 
the heights, even though it very rarely does. The same applies to a lot of 
other beers often dismissed as "dull" and "mainstream".

-- 
http://www.stockportpubs.org.uk
"If a river bridge were not guarded by a parapet, the slackness of the
defaulting authority deserves the blame, not the people who fall in" -
Lieut. Col. Mervyn O'Gorman.

In article <d2f3di$sjp$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, PeterE
 wrote:

> Brett...  wrote:
> > PeterE wrote:
> >>
> >> I think there is a widespread tendency within CAMRA when judging beer
> >> to set too much store by the intrinsic character of a beer rather
> >> than how it is kept in that particular pub.
> >
> > Are you referring to tasting as in tasting panels, judging as in beer
> > of the year competition or the ongoing of judging beer quality as per
> > the NBSS? Also by "CAMRA" I'm not sure if you are mean it's members
> > per se, a specific part of the organisation or someone/thing else.
> >
> > Can you explain this a little more please?

> I just mean the general opinion of "the CAMRA member in the pub".
> "Oakham JHB is a great beer." "Greene King IPA is crap." It's not quite
> as simple as that.


Quite right. I don't know about you but I have yet to meet the average
CAMRA member in the pub that people so frequently quote.

To be honest I've yet to meet the average CAMRA member - you can't even
find a decent collection of overweight, bearded, sandal-wearers at a beer
festival most days.


> From what several people have said, Greene King IPA is capable of
> scaling the heights, even though it very rarely does. The same applies
> to a lot of other beers often dismissed as "dull" and "mainstream".


As I've said many times before - cellarmanship (or lack thereof)

Question - other people must have noted this but why are so many good
cellarmen/licensees awkward sods? ("Interesting characters" is the popular
phrase)

-- 
Steve Pampling

"MikeMcG"  wrote in message 
news:1112182440.788865.133180@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

<snip>


> pounced on Oddbins in search of their small range of passable to good
> beer (Little Creatures, Lindeman's Cassis, Hopback SL, etc.) on the way
> to a family house party.


Are you saying that Oddbins have risen from the (ale) grave? I gave up on 
them over a year ago, although I have seen notices about "real ale 4 for 5" 
in the window.

These days I settle for a case of Youngs Special London Ale at 1.25 a 
bottle (if you buy 2 cases) from Majestic.

IHTS Hartleys beers have never inspired me, but it's always sad to see the 
loss of a traditional brewery.

Brian

PeterE wrote:

> Brett...  wrote:
>> PeterE wrote:
>>>
>>> I think there is a widespread tendency within CAMRA when judging
>>> beer to set too much store by the intrinsic character of a beer
>>> rather than how it is kept in that particular pub.
>>
>> Are you referring to tasting as in tasting panels, judging as in beer
>> of the year competition or the ongoing of judging beer quality as per
>> the NBSS? Also by "CAMRA" I'm not sure if you are mean it's members
>> per se, a specific part of the organisation or someone/thing else.
>>
>> Can you explain this a little more please?
>
> I just mean the general opinion of "the CAMRA member in the pub".
> "Oakham JHB is a great beer." "Greene King IPA is crap." It's not
> quite as simple as that.
>


Oh right, because although that attitude might be common amongst some 
members (I don't like tarring everyone with the same brush), I would not 
that it reflects in any way, the overall direction of the campaign in 
general.



> From what several people have said, Greene King IPA is capable of
> scaling the heights, even though it very rarely does. The same
> applies to a lot of other beers often dismissed as "dull" and
> "mainstream".


Absolutely, but the brewers of such nationally mainstream beers only have 
themselves to blame for failing to consider what happens to their baby when 
it leaves the brewery gates?

In terms of the actual character of a beer, I'm not so sure that it is 
possible to be impartial when considering the various flavours out there. 
That pint of Carrot and Coriander ale might be in superb condition but that 
doesn't mean it's a great beer.

-- 

Brett

Steven Pampling wrote:

>
> As I've said many times before - cellarmanship (or lack thereof)
>
> Question - other people must have noted this but why are so many good
> cellarmen/licensees awkward sods? ("Interesting characters" is the
> popular phrase)


It shouldn't be called the Good Beer Guide but the Good Licensee* Guide

* or cellarman?


-- 

Brett

In article <424b24e5$0$67360$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,
   Brett...  wrote:

> > From what several people have said, Greene King IPA is capable of
> > scaling the heights, even though it very rarely does. The same applies
> > to a lot of other beers often dismissed as "dull" and "mainstream".

> Absolutely, but the brewers of such nationally mainstream beers only
> have themselves to blame for failing to consider what happens to their
> baby when it leaves the brewery gates?


In many cases they are actually guilty of specifying treatment for the beer
that destroys its character. GK IPA probably being a good case in point.

The better pints people get are not served the way the brewery say they
should be and the excellent ones tend to be ones without the "sparkler"
which would otherwise trash the hop character.

-- 
Steve Pampling

In article ,
   Chris de Cordova  wrote:

> In article <4249995e$0$83093$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net>,
>    Brett...  wrote:
> >

> > Thanks I've actually found out that we'll be stopping near Ings so
> > the Watermill is on our list. I guess that is a little further
> > NorthEast. Any other  "musts" in that direction?

> Eagle & Child, Staveley comes to mind


> thinking now.....



and the Queen's Head, Troutbeck

-- 
Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes) www.cumbriacamra.org.uk
Whitehaven Beer Festival: Sept 30th & Oct 1st 2005 (www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk)

A fool and his money are soon partying.

Chris de Cordova wrote:

> In article ,
>   Chris de Cordova  wrote:
>> In article <4249995e$0$83093$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net>,
>>    Brett...  wrote:
>>>
>
>>> Thanks I've actually found out that we'll be stopping near Ings so
>>> the Watermill is on our list. I guess that is a little further
>>> NorthEast. Any other  "musts" in that direction?
>
>> Eagle & Child, Staveley comes to mind
>
>
>> thinking now.....
>
>
> and the Queen's Head, Troutbeck


Not been there for years, but the Mason's Arms in Strawberry Bank (Carmell 
Fell, east of Lake Windermere) had its own microbrewery and an excellent 
beer range - though possibly no longer has a microbrewery.

Or you could settle for the Watermill which we visited a couple of years 
ago. Superb. Digital photos of the interior - notably the beer list - 
available on demand :-)

Have a look here - if you can stand the "music"! They say the Mason's Arms 
sold (sic) Timothy Tailor Landlord ;-) last July. (Apparently the Mason's 
Arms website has now closed.)

http://www.storth.com/pubs.htm

Brian

A report on this weekend's ventures...

Some great pubs.

My favourites were the Manor Arms, the Watermill and the Anglers Arms but 
they were all great pubs.
The number in () is my score using NBSS ratings.



Manor Arms  - Broughton in Furness

Roosters Hooligan (4)

Storm AB150 (3)

Hawkeshead Bitter (4)





Watermill - Ings

Hesket Newmallet Great Cockup Porter (3 )

Coniston Bluebird (3)

Moorhouse Black Cat  (4 )

Atlas Latitude (4 )

Skinners Hiligan honey (3)

Inveralmond Ossians Ale (4)

Hawkeshead Bitter (4 )



Eagle  and Child - Staveley

Yates Biltter (3);

Hawkeshead Red (4);

Dent Aviator(4);

Harvistoun Ice  Maiden (3)



Anglers Arms - Haverthwaite,

Moorhouse Anglers Arm (3)

Haiwkshead five Hop (4 )

Copper Dragon Black Gold (4); Challenger IPOA(4) ; Golden Pippin (4 )


Jennings Golden Host (3)


Pnnce of Wales - Foxfield

Foxfield Mild Parti (3 ); Slipped Up (3)

Hopback  Best (3 )

Glastonbury Mystery Tor(4 )

Simpson and Simpson Hang em high (3 )


-- 

Brett

In article <4251a7e2$0$63421$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>,
   Brett...  wrote:

> A report on this weekend's ventures...

> Some great pubs.


Glad you enjoyed your visit!

<proud>

Why is it whenever we go away we do not get a great pub experience
like this? 

For instance, we went to the Whitehaven Wigan match this Sunday.
Afterwards, in need of some sorrow-drowning, we looked in GBG -
nothing for Wigan. Nothing exciting in the nearby pubs descriptions.

Chose a couple and couldn't find either of them anyway. 

Gave up and went for a motorway KFC instead, and went homeward. We
called in at one of three pubs, newly transferred to our branch,
which we hadn't visited before and found it was yet another gem.

A typical remote country pub, but obviously well used because it
carried five Jennings beers, the four we tried all in great
condition, inclduing Jennings MILD!!!! Very rare!

Our area is full of these sort of pubs yet we have a miserly 23 pub
allocation for GBG. In our branch we have to reject over 30 top class
pubs for lack of space, yet when we go anywhere else, using GBG, we
end up sadly disappointed and going home. 


Usually find one boring local beer, and/or common guests like
speckled hen or abbott available in almost every entry ... 

:o(

-- 
Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes) www.cumbriacamra.org.uk
Whitehaven Beer Festival: Sept 30th & Oct 1st 2005 (www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk)

24 hours in a day ... 24 beers in a case ... coincidence?

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 09:58:48 +0100, Chris de Cordova wrote:


> Why is it whenever we go away we do not get a great pub experience
> like this? 
> 
> For instance, we went to the Whitehaven Wigan match this Sunday.
> Afterwards, in need of some sorrow-drowning, we looked in GBG -
> nothing for Wigan. Nothing exciting in the nearby pubs descriptions.



Too late now, but if you're in Wigan again, try the Anvil, right in the
town centre behind the church.  Bland modern scrubbed clickfloor and brass
lamp decor, but several real ales and some Belgian fruit beers, and a nice
grown up crowd.



> 
> Gave up and went for a motorway KFC instead, and went homeward. We
> called in at one of three pubs, newly transferred to our branch,
> which we hadn't visited before and found it was yet another gem.
> 
> A typical remote country pub, but obviously well used because it
> carried five Jennings beers, the four we tried all in great
> condition, inclduing Jennings MILD!!!! Very rare!



Are you going to tell us what it's called then? :)


> 
> Our area is full of these sort of pubs yet we have a miserly 23 pub
> allocation for GBG. In our branch we have to reject over 30 top class
> pubs for lack of space, yet when we go anywhere else, using GBG, we
> end up sadly disappointed and going home. 


More and more now I tend to ask local people first when going to an area,
rather than relying on the GBG.

-- 
Cliff Laine, The Old Lard Factory, Lancaster  http://www.loobynet.com
* remove any trace of rudeness before you reply *

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using words well is a social virtue.  Use 'fortuitous' once more to
mean 'fortunate' and you move an English word another step towards
the dustbin.  If your mistake took hold, no one who valued clarity
would be able to use the word again.

   John Whale

In article ,
   loobyloo  wrote:

> Are you going to tell us what it's called then? :)


tehe ...

Horse & Farrier at Dacre, nr Penrith

-- 
Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes) www.cumbriacamra.org.uk
Whitehaven Beer Festival: Sept 30th & Oct 1st 2005 (www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk)

Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 12:02:42 +0100, Chris de Cordova wrote:


> In article ,
>    loobyloo  wrote:
>> Are you going to tell us what it's called then? :)
> 
> tehe ...
> 
> Horse & Farrier at Dacre, nr Penrith


Thanks Chris, both for that and the other reply.

-- 
Cliff Laine, The Old Lard Factory, Lancaster  http://www.loobynet.com
* remove any trace of rudeness before you reply *

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using words well is a social virtue.  Use 'fortuitous' once more to
mean 'fortunate' and you move an English word another step towards
the dustbin.  If your mistake took hold, no one who valued clarity
would be able to use the word again.

   John Whale

Chris de Cordova  wrote:

>
> For instance, we went to the Whitehaven Wigan match this Sunday.
> Afterwards, in need of some sorrow-drowning, we looked in GBG -
> nothing for Wigan. Nothing exciting in the nearby pubs descriptions.


Not sure what you mean there, but the current GBG has seven entries for 
Wigan. I don't know the place well myself, but surely at least one of those 
might have been worth a look.


> Usually find one boring local beer, and/or common guests like
> speckled hen or abbott available in almost every entry ...



It is a Good Beer Guide, not a Rare Beer Guide.

In Stockport it lists a number of pubs that sell nothing but Robinsons or 
Hydes. Is that bad?

-- 
http://www.stockportpubs.org.uk
"If a river bridge were not guarded by a parapet, the slackness of the
defaulting authority deserves the blame, not the people who fall in" -
Lieut. Col. Mervyn O'Gorman.

Chris de Cordova wrote:

> In article <4251a7e2$0$63421$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>,
>   Brett...  wrote:
>> A report on this weekend's ventures...
>
>> Some great pubs.
>
> Glad you enjoyed your visit!
>
> <proud>
>
> Why is it whenever we go away we do not get a great pub experience
> like this?
>


Oh I think there are many parts of the country where there are equally good 
pubs :-)
As Peter says later on in this thread, a wide range of guest beers might not 
be an essential prequesite for everyone.

However if you are after a wide range of guest beers then I admit that your 
part of the world does better than any other I know of.
The attitude of your supermarket Booths seems to follow this trend as well.


-- 

Brett

PeterE wrote:


>
>
> It is a Good Beer Guide, not a Rare Beer Guide.
>
> In Stockport it lists a number of pubs that sell nothing but
> Robinsons or Hydes. Is that bad?


Not necessarily IMHO.
Out of interest ARE there any GBG standard pubs that DO serve a wider range 
but don't make it to the guide Stockport?


-- 

Brett

Brett...  wrote:

>
> Out of interest ARE there any GBG standard pubs that DO serve a wider
> range but don't make it to the guide Stockport?


Possibly the Old Woolpack which for some reason was omitted from the 2005 
Guide but has been selected for 2006.

The beer in the Wetherspoons (Calvert's Court) is maybe borderline GBG 
standard but the pub itself is utterly soulless.

Not a long list, though - we tend to suffer a lot from "revolving licensee 
syndrome".

-- 
http://www.stockportpubs.org.uk
"If a river bridge were not guarded by a parapet, the slackness of the
defaulting authority deserves the blame, not the people who fall in" -
Lieut. Col. Mervyn O'Gorman.

In article <d2uksv$fcp$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, PeterE
 wrote:

> The beer in the Wetherspoons (Calvert's Court) is maybe borderline
> GBG standard but the pub itself is utterly soulless.



as you point out it's a good *beer* guide 


not a good pub guide!

-- 
Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes) www.cumbriacamra.org.uk
Whitehaven Beer Festival: Sept 30th & Oct 1st 2005 (www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk)

Marathon runners with bad footwear suffer the agony of defeat.

In article <d2uj19$ndj$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>, PeterE
 wrote:


> Chris de Cordova  wrote:
> >
> > For instance, we went to the Whitehaven Wigan match this Sunday.
> > Afterwards, in need of some sorrow-drowning, we looked in GBG -
> > nothing for Wigan. Nothing exciting in the nearby pubs
> > descriptions.

> Not sure what you mean there, but the current GBG has seven entries
> for Wigan. I don't know the place well myself, but surely at least
> one of those might have been worth a look.


Oops ---- I thought it was in Lancashire! We missed some good spots
there, by the looks of things.

Shame Whitehaven is unlikely to be playing Wigan again in the
forseeablefuture!

-- 
Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes) www.cumbriacamra.org.uk
Whitehaven Beer Festival: Sept 30th & Oct 1st 2005 (www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk)

How do you tell when you run out of invisible ink?

In article <4252d29c$0$63408$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>,
   Brett...  wrote:

> The attitude of your supermarket Booths seems to follow this trend
> as well.



yeah! :o)))

and have you seen their prices!!!!

most between 99p per bottled (eg for a 5% bca) and 149p

I get funny looks and remarks about parties/newyear/christmas/etc
when I call into the Booths at Keswick and come out with a trolley
load of bottles (only)

-- 
Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes) www.cumbriacamra.org.uk
Whitehaven Beer Festival: Sept 30th & Oct 1st 2005 (www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk)

Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

Chris de Cordova  wrote:

> In article <d2uksv$fcp$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, PeterE
>  wrote:
>> The beer in the Wetherspoons (Calvert's Court) is maybe borderline
>> GBG standard but the pub itself is utterly soulless.
>
> as you point out it's a good *beer* guide
>
> not a good pub guide!


The branch members take the view there are places of equal beer merit and 
far more pub merit. We do have a thorough beer-scoring system, but we treat 
it as a guide rather than simply taking the top 25 eligible pubs. A scoring 
system is a good servant but a poor master.

-- 
http://www.stockportpubs.org.uk
"If a river bridge were not guarded by a parapet, the slackness of the
defaulting authority deserves the blame, not the people who fall in" -
Lieut. Col. Mervyn O'Gorman.

Chris de Cordova  wrote:

> In article <d2uj19$ndj$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>, PeterE
>  wrote:
>
>> Not sure what you mean there, but the current GBG has seven entries
>> for Wigan. I don't know the place well myself, but surely at least
>> one of those might have been worth a look.
>
> Oops ---- I thought it was in Lancashire! We missed some good spots
> there, by the looks of things.


I did wonder about that!

-- 
http://www.stockportpubs.org.uk
"If a river bridge were not guarded by a parapet, the slackness of the
defaulting authority deserves the blame, not the people who fall in" -
Lieut. Col. Mervyn O'Gorman.

>
>Our area is full of these sort of pubs yet we have a miserly 23 pub
>allocation for GBG. In our branch we have to reject over 30 top class
>pubs for lack of space, yet when we go anywhere else, using GBG, we
>end up sadly disappointed and going home. 


We are in the same situation in our area in which 100% of the pubs
sell cask ale . We are given a quota which we are told is generous ,
one in seven which is more than other areas. But an area with 50% real
ale pubs given a quota of 1 in 10 is better treated as it works out as
1 in 5 of eligible pubs.
 I wrote to HQ and they said the purpose of the GBG is to provide a
traveller with a selection of suitable pubs in all areas.I hopoe they
don't publish a road map because they would include as many roads in
the Scottish Highlands as in London on that basis!
The solution we are trying is to produce our own local guide.

In article ,
   valeofbelvoirdrinker  wrote:

> I wrote to HQ and they said the purpose of the GBG is to provide a
> traveller with a selection of suitable pubs in all areas.


we can't do that - our area is too large for the number of pubs we
can put in

We always have to choose between putting in the best pubs for beer 
and getting a good geographical spread. 

There are several large areas where there might be one real ale pub
but it would not come in even our top 50.

So we have large areas with no GBG coverage.


We have a lot of instances where good pubs come in clusters.

(Go away Brett - I like it here - at least there are people posting
in here!!)

-- 
Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes) www.cumbriacamra.org.uk
Whitehaven Beer Festival: Sept 30th & Oct 1st 2005 (www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk)

Who is this General Failure chap anyway -  and why is he reading my HD?

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 12:38:41 +0100, Chris de Cordova
 wrote:


>In article ,
>   valeofbelvoirdrinker  wrote:
>> I wrote to HQ and they said the purpose of the GBG is to provide a

>We have a lot of instances where good pubs come in clusters.

Happens a lot. It's called competition , if the nearest pub is good
you have to be good too.But we also have pairs of pubs in villages
which deliberately work to complement each other rather than to
compete head on.

Chris de Cordova wrote:


>
> (Go away Brett - I like it here - at least there are people posting
> in here!!)


Charming!
The point I was making is that this is not a CAMRA only forum and it might 
be worth considering the views of others who may not wish to be involved in 
internal ramblings of CAMRA.
The mailings lists are also very new, so it is going to take a little time 
before they are as busy as here.
On the other hand, you may well  find you get an answer to someone in the 
know on a dedicated list.

-- 

Brett

On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 19:10:53 +0100, Brett... wrote:


> Chris de Cordova wrote:
> 
>>
>> (Go away Brett - I like it here - at least there are people posting
>> in here!!)
> 
> Charming!
> The point I was making is that this is not a CAMRA only forum and it might 
> be worth considering the views of others who may not wish to be involved in 
> internal ramblings of CAMRA.
> The mailings lists are also very new, so it is going to take a little time 
> before they are as busy as here.
> On the other hand, you may well  find you get an answer to someone in the 
> know on a dedicated list.


I have signed up to the yahoo group, although I'm slightly mystifed as to
why another mailing list is needed.  I understand it would be a problem if
there was a great deal of purely procedural CAMRA stuff being discussed
here, but I don't see too much of that clogging up the UKRA arteries.

Also there's going to be a very indistinct boundary between the topics we
discuss here and internal CAMRA stuff, and seeing as no-one's complaining
yet about the volume of the latter, personally I'd prefer most of the
discussion to take place here without us worrying overmuch whether it's too
CAMRA-ish.
-- 
Cliff Laine, The Old Lard Factory, Lancaster  http://www.loobynet.com
* remove any trace of rudeness before you reply *

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using words well is a social virtue.  Use 'fortuitous' once more to
mean 'fortunate' and you move an English word another step towards
the dustbin.  If your mistake took hold, no one who valued clarity
would be able to use the word again.

   John Whale

loobyloo wrote:


>
> I have signed up to the yahoo group, although I'm slightly mystifed
> as to why another mailing list is needed.  I understand it would be a
> problem if there was a great deal of purely procedural CAMRA stuff
> being discussed here, but I don't see too much of that clogging up
> the UKRA arteries.
>


Bit of a chicken and egg really - I'm not going to ask internal matters on 
here in the first place.


> Also there's going to be a very indistinct boundary between the
> topics we discuss here and internal CAMRA stuff, and seeing as
> no-one's complaining yet about the volume of the latter, personally
> I'd prefer most of the discussion to take place here without us
> worrying overmuch whether it's too CAMRA-ish.


As well as being able to discuss internal issues that would not be 
appropriate on a public forum, mailing lists offer a forum that for many 
people is easier to use than usenet.
They also offer an opportunity to create lists for dedicated interests - 
running beer festivals, web publishing etc. Not everyone wants everything on 
one big forum.
At the end of the day though no one is forcing you to use a mailing list!


-- 

Brett

On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 15:38:26 +0100, Brett... wrote:


> As well as being able to discuss internal issues that would not be 
> appropriate on a public forum, mailing lists offer a forum that for many 
> people is easier to use than usenet.
> They also offer an opportunity to create lists for dedicated interests - 
> running beer festivals, web publishing etc. Not everyone wants everything on 
> one big forum.
> At the end of the day though no one is forcing you to use a mailing list!


Well I'm now signed up for both, in case I miss anything.

-- 
Cliff Laine, The Old Lard Factory, Lancaster  http://www.loobynet.com
* remove any trace of rudeness before you reply *

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using words well is a social virtue.  Use 'fortuitous' once more to
mean 'fortunate' and you move an English word another step towards
the dustbin.  If your mistake took hold, no one who valued clarity
would be able to use the word again.

   John Whale

loobyloo wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 15:38:26 +0100, Brett... wrote:
>
>> As well as being able to discuss internal issues that would not be
>> appropriate on a public forum, mailing lists offer a forum that for
>> many people is easier to use than usenet.
>> They also offer an opportunity to create lists for dedicated
>> interests - running beer festivals, web publishing etc. Not everyone
>> wants everything on one big forum.
>> At the end of the day though no one is forcing you to use a mailing
>> list!
>
> Well I'm now signed up for both, in case I miss anything.


I suspect it will take some time for the list's (there are more than two!) 
to become established.
A bit like this newsgroup which was VERY quiet for the first few months of 
it's life after I got it set up way back in 1996!

-- 

Brett