In the thread a few weeks ago ("Excess fare to extend the return portion
of a SVR?") I wasn't the only person who thought that it was possible
to extend the range of a ticket with an excess fare.  

The NRE e-mail staff said it wasn't possible and I queried it through
the RPC website.  I got the following answer:

--> I think we may be at cross-purposes when discussing excess
--> fares as the term refers to a penalty charged when a
--> passenger is travelling with an invalid ticket, for instance
--> to a station more distant than the destination shown on
--> their ticket.
--> 
--> With regard to the particular journey you describe the only
--> ticket options would be either return Manchester to
--> Sheffield with a single Sheffield to Derby or a single
--> Manchester to Derby, single Sheffield to Manchester.
--> Usually, the cheapest option would be the former as there is
--> no option within the booking system to 'add on' a little bit
--> of extra fare. If you bought a return ticket
--> Manchester/Sheffield and then decided to stay on the train
--> to travel to Derby, even with the intention to pay, you
--> would be travelling illegally and would be charged an excess
--> fare penalty.

Where did some of us get the idea that "excess fares" could be used
legally to extend an existing ticket's range?  Is there any way to do
that?

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:13:12 +0100, Adam Funk 
wrote:


>--> I think we may be at cross-purposes when discussing excess
>--> fares as the term refers to a penalty charged when a
>--> passenger is travelling with an invalid ticket, for instance
>--> to a station more distant than the destination shown on
>--> their ticket.


Incorrect; perhaps the RPCs should learn what they are talking about
before spouting rubbish.  That is not the only definition of an excess
fare.

I don't know if you can extend a return ticket in the manner being
described, but generally speaking excesses (e.g. route) are available
before travel, and indeed *should* be purchased before boarding.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Adam Funk wrote:

>The NRE e-mail staff said it wasn't possible and I queried it through
>the RPC website.  I got the following answer:

>Where did some of us get the idea that "excess fares" could be used
>legally to extend an existing ticket's range?  Is there any way to do
>that?


Try asking them what it says about Excess Fares in the Retail Manual
Part One.

-- 
Neil Sunderland
Braunton, Devon

Please observe the Reply-To address

Neil Williams wrote:


> I don't know if you can extend a return ticket in the manner being
> described, but generally speaking excesses (e.g. route) are available
> before travel, and indeed *should* be purchased before boarding.


I'm confused by excesses too. My daughter will be travelling from 
Cambridge to Bangor on a saver return with a YP railcard. She wants to 
break her return journey in York and Birmingham, staying overnight in 
each city. Birmingham is a permitted route but not York.

She could use the saver as far as Crewe, buy a single from Crewe to York 
  and a single from York to Birmingham, and then use the saver to get 
her on to Cambridge.

Could she alternatively call in the ticket office at Bangor and ask to 
be excessed to return via York?

Which would be the cheaper option?

Alan

Adam Funk wrote:

{quoting some railway person)


> --> If you bought a return ticket
> --> Manchester/Sheffield and then decided to stay on the train
> --> to travel to Derby, even with the intention to pay, you
> --> would be travelling illegally and would be charged an excess
> --> fare penalty.


Complete and utter twaddle.

Charlie

Unfortunately I was also recently REFUSED to be sold an excess fare
ticket.

I went to the station and asked for tickets:
A to B, excessed to C on the outward, and from D on the return.

The first person I asked said something like "Go away, ask someone
else!", I can't remember the exact words as I was shocked at his
rudeness. The next person I asked refused to issue it. She said "I
cannot issue an excess on a ticket you do not yet have". So I said
"Fine, we'll do it in 2 transactions, issue me the ticket and then
we'll do the excess". She didn't look pleased but tried anyway. She
then incorrectly tried to charge me NOT an excess fare but a whole new
fare from B to C on top! I said "That's not how you excess fares, you
need to get the difference between the fares and halve it for each
portion", she denied this was the case. I asked to speak to her
manager. The manager said that she was correct to do this and I was
wrong about excess fares. All the staff were extremely rude to me.

Unfortunately I could not find details on excess fares on the fares
manual online - are they in the secret part that the public are not
allowed to view?

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:53:25 +0100, Alan Crawshaw
<alan@fastasleep.invalid> wrote:


>Could she alternatively call in the ticket office at Bangor and ask to 
>be excessed to return via York?


The Routeing Guide implies that you can, but it requires there to be a
routed fare for that flow, which I suspect there won't be.

If you want to save money, a return from Brum is probably cheaper than
the two singles, however.  Trouble is, York is so far off what I'd
consider a Reasonable Route that you've almost ended up with one of
the famous triangular journeys...

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On 18 Aug 2005 17:23:21 -0700, "Yorkie"  wrote:


>Unfortunately I was also recently REFUSED to be sold an excess fare
>ticket.


Not uncommon.  Some staff are too lazy/don't know about them.
However...


>I went to the station and asked for tickets:
>A to B, excessed to C on the outward, and from D on the return.


I'm not convinced you can do that, and I suspect that if you tried it
on the train you'd end up with a Standard Single for the "missing"
bits.

I think you *could* XS either end of an existing ticket in its
entirety[1], but not to two destinations.

If either C or D isn't too far from B, I would suggest that a return
through to either C or D plus one single is likely the cheapest way to
do it.

[1] e.g. I hold a SVR from A-B, and want to extend it to be from A-B-C
on both parts.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:53:25 +0100, Alan Crawshaw
<alan@fastasleep.invalid> wrote:


>I'm confused by excesses too. My daughter will be travelling from 
>Cambridge to Bangor on a saver return with a YP railcard. She wants to 
>break her return journey in York and Birmingham, staying overnight in 
>each city. Birmingham is a permitted route but not York.
>
>She could use the saver as far as Crewe, buy a single from Crewe to York 
>  and a single from York to Birmingham, and then use the saver to get 
>her on to Cambridge.


Instead of the two singles, she could buy a return from X to York,
where X is somewhere with permitted routes to York via both
Chester/Crewe and Birmingham. Hereford, maybe? I doubt she'd be able
to save much/any money this way though - especially if she can get VV
advance fares for the singles.


>Could she alternatively call in the ticket office at Bangor and ask to 
>be excessed to return via York?


Only if there was a "route York" fare available, and there isn't.

Neil Sunderland wrote:


> Adam Funk wrote:
>>The NRE e-mail staff said it wasn't possible and I queried it through
>>the RPC website.  I got the following answer:
> 
>>Where did some of us get the idea that "excess fares" could be used
>>legally to extend an existing ticket's range?  Is there any way to do
>>that?
> 
> Try asking them what it says about Excess Fares in the Retail Manual
> Part One.


Is that available on the web?

Neil Williams wrote:


> Incorrect; perhaps the RPCs should learn what they are talking about
> before spouting rubbish.  That is not the only definition of an excess
> fare.


If they don't know, how are members of the public supposed to get what they
need to make fully informed decisions about the most economical ways to
plan journeys?

Why not? Is there some rule that says you can't excess both portions?!

I would not be "missing bits".

OK, let's look at it another way, why can't I excess an out portion to
a further destination (C)?

And, later on, when I am on my return ticket, if I later go to the
booking office at D, what I did with my outward ticket is both
irrelevant and unkown to them, and if I ask for an excess from D, what
is the problem then?

As mentioned previously, I cannot find any official source of
information on excess fares, but from the numerous posts on this
newsgroup, and from excess fare tickets I have seen, I cannot see why I
can't do that.

Neil Williams wrote:


> Incorrect; perhaps the RPCs should learn what they are talking about
> before spouting rubbish. 


   My thoughts exactly - they seem to be referring to a penalty fare 
rather than an excess fare. Indeed, I always thought that if caught 
travelling without a valid ticket even outside a PF zone you were not 
allowed to excess but would be forced to buy a full-price ticket.


> I don't know if you can extend a return ticket in the manner being
> described, but generally speaking excesses (e.g. route) are available
> before travel, and indeed *should* be purchased before boarding.


   As I said in an earlier thread, unless the rules have changed very 
recently you can as I have done it myself. Station staff can be more 
knowledgable about excesses, but I find the 'old hands' tend to be more 
helpful than the newer recruits.

Stephen Hughes wrote:


>   As I said in an earlier thread, unless the rules have changed very 
> recently you can as I have done it myself. Station staff can be more 
> knowledgable about excesses, but I find the 'old hands' tend to be more 
> helpful than the newer recruits.


I think that's a bit unfair. Some of the 'old hands' I've known have
said things like 'break your journey on a cheap day return? I've
worked on this line 30 years and I've never heard of such a thing.'

Mind you, most of the old hand is my part of Northern Rail seem
to have take early retirement - the newer staff I nearly always
find to be friendly and helpful, even if they don't yet know
every obscure rule. The influx of women conductors is a good
thing from the helpfulness point of view, it seems to me.
(I hope that  doesn't offend anyone.)

Charlie

>Neil Sunderland wrote:
>> Try asking them what it says about Excess Fares in the Retail Manual
>> Part One.


Adam Funk wrote:

>Is that available on the web?


If it is, I can't find it. Believe me, I've tried :-(

-- 
Neil Sunderland
Braunton, Devon

Please observe the Reply-To address

On 19 Aug 2005 01:19:41 -0700, "Yorkie"  wrote:


>Why not? Is there some rule that says you can't excess both portions?!


It's one return ticket.  AFAIAC, excessing the two parts to different
places makes it cease to be that.  Changing the route, for example,
doesn't per-se.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:37:32 GMT, Stephen Hughes 
wrote:


>   As I said in an earlier thread, unless the rules have changed very 
>recently you can as I have done it myself. Station staff can be more 
>knowledgable about excesses, but I find the 'old hands' tend to be more 
>helpful than the newer recruits.


Have you done a Y-shaped excess as is being talked about?  I'm really
not convinced that they are, or should be, possible.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Charlie Hulme wrote:

> the newer staff I nearly always
> find to be friendly and helpful, even if they don't yet know
> every obscure rule.


   That's what I was meaning to say really - the old hands know all the 
tricks while the newer ones tend to only know the basics. As for being 
helpful and friendly I don't think there is much to choose between them. 
Well, except maybe at Stockport although I have noticed one or two 
helpful staff there of late so maybe things are improving....

Adam Funk wrote:

[Quoting the RPC]

> --> If you bought a return ticket
> --> Manchester/Sheffield and then decided to stay on the train
> --> to travel to Derby, even with the intention to pay, you
> --> would be travelling illegally and would be charged an excess
> --> fare penalty.


Absolute rubbish. If you were on the train with _no_ticket_ at all,
you would not be travelling illegally - not until you tried to leave
your destination station without paying. You would not be eligible for
a discounted ticket, so you would have to buy a SOS/R from Sheffield
to Derby. End of story. Nothing illegal, no penalty fare.

It really worries me when RPCs and TOCs imply, and often state, that
boarding a train without a ticket is illegal, when that quite simply
is not the case.

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

Stevie D wrote:

> Adam Funk wrote:
>
> [Quoting the RPC]
> > --> If you bought a return ticket
> > --> Manchester/Sheffield and then decided to stay on the train
> > --> to travel to Derby, even with the intention to pay, you
> > --> would be travelling illegally and would be charged an excess
> > --> fare penalty.
>
> Absolute rubbish. If you were on the train with _no_ticket_ at all,
> you would not be travelling illegally - not until you tried to leave
> your destination station without paying. You would not be eligible for
> a discounted ticket, so you would have to buy a SOS/R from Sheffield
> to Derby. End of story. Nothing illegal, no penalty fare.
>
> It really worries me when RPCs and TOCs imply, and often state, that
> boarding a train without a ticket is illegal, when that quite simply
> is not the case.



Er, illegal or liable to penalty fare?  Surely fare-evasion is the
illegal thing, for which one is prosecuted.  Penalty fares are what you
are liable for if you don't get your ticket in advance but aren't
suspected of fare-evasion.

So it may be "nothing illegal, no prosecution" but it's "nothing
illegal, yes penalty fare".

If it's not a penalty fare zone, excess fares are something else, but
they can't be "penalties".

MIG wrote:


> Er, illegal or liable to penalty fare?  Surely fare-evasion is the
> illegal thing, for which one is prosecuted.  Penalty fares are what you
> are liable for if you don't get your ticket in advance but aren't
> suspected of fare-evasion.


I can't remember the exact wording, but I'm sure TransPennine Express
have had posters at Selby and other stations (not in a PFZ) that say,
or at the very least imply, it is illegal to board a train without a
valid ticket.

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

Stevie D wrote:

> MIG wrote:
>
> > Er, illegal or liable to penalty fare?  Surely fare-evasion is the
> > illegal thing, for which one is prosecuted.  Penalty fares are what you
> > are liable for if you don't get your ticket in advance but aren't
> > suspected of fare-evasion.
>
> I can't remember the exact wording, but I'm sure TransPennine Express
> have had posters at Selby and other stations (not in a PFZ) that say,
> or at the very least imply, it is illegal to board a train without a
> valid ticket.



Some TOCs do seem to be a bit careless with their wording.  SWT has
posters that talk about a "penalty" (ie punishment) when it should say
"penalty fare" (not a punishment, but a fare [yeah, I know, who are we
kidding]) and also imply that penalty fares are issued to fare-dodgers,
ie openly admitting that they cop out of prosecution at let
fare-dodgers off with £20.

I think they really ought to be more careful.  If they are using
incorrect/dishonest wording when taking penalty fares off people, they
could be open to charges of demanding money with menaces.

This is something they should take seriously.  If they say "I believe
that you are in debt to me for a higher fare", that's one thing.  If
they say "you are being fined" as a way of getting the money, and the
only reason that someone pays is because they believe it at the time,
the money has surely been demanded illegally, with greater threat
behind it than there should be.

There are many threads featuring people who feel hard done by with
regard to penalty fares.  I think it's worth them looking closely at
the rules for issuing penalty fares, because I bet the TOCs break them
every time.  I'd love to see one of them taken to court for demanding a
penalty fare incorrectly.  The SRA never gave a toss, unfortunately,
having inherited responsibility from the ORR.

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:54:09 +0100, Stevie D
 wrote:


>I can't remember the exact wording, but I'm sure TransPennine Express
>have had posters at Selby and other stations (not in a PFZ) that say,
>or at the very least imply, it is illegal to board a train without a
>valid ticket.


I believe that there is a Byelaw that states exactly that.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Neil Williams wrote:


> Stevie D wrote:
> 
>> I can't remember the exact wording, but I'm sure TransPennine Express
>> have had posters at Selby and other stations (not in a PFZ) that say,
>> or at the very least imply, it is illegal to board a train without a
>> valid ticket.
> 
> I believe that there is a Byelaw that states exactly that.


In which case, why do the railways allow passengers to pay full fare
when they board without having availed themselves of the opportunity
to buy a ticket? They should be prosecuting them!
Surely by permitting and condoning an illegal act, they are themselves
in breach of the law?

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005, Neil Williams wrote:


> On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:54:09 +0100, Stevie D
>  wrote:
> 
> >I can't remember the exact wording, but I'm sure TransPennine Express
> >have had posters at Selby and other stations (not in a PFZ) that say,
> >or at the very least imply, it is illegal to board a train without a
> >valid ticket.
> 
> I believe that there is a Byelaw that states exactly that.


No, not "exactly" that.  There's a list of circumstances (basically,
there was no opportunity to purchase a ticket at the station before 
boarding) under which it's *not* an offence.

"Alan J. Flavell"  wrote in message 
news:Pine.LNX.4.62.0508211727110.27520@ppepc56.ph.gla.ac.uk...

> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005, Neil Williams wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:54:09 +0100, Stevie D
>>  wrote:
>>
>> >I can't remember the exact wording, but I'm sure TransPennine Express
>> >have had posters at Selby and other stations (not in a PFZ) that say,
>> >or at the very least imply, it is illegal to board a train without a
>> >valid ticket.

>> I believe that there is a Byelaw that states exactly that.

> No, not "exactly" that.  There's a list of circumstances (basically,
> there was no opportunity to purchase a ticket at the station before
> boarding) under which it's *not* an offence.


The Byelaws are available from http://www.sra.gov.uk/pubs2/industry/

Byelaws 17 & 18 refer.
-- 
David Biddulph

David Biddulph wrote:

> "Alan J. Flavell"  wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.62.0508211727110.27520@ppepc56.ph.gla.ac.uk...
> > On Sun, 21 Aug 2005, Neil Williams wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:54:09 +0100, Stevie D
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >> >I can't remember the exact wording, but I'm sure TransPennine Express
> >> >have had posters at Selby and other stations (not in a PFZ) that say,
> >> >or at the very least imply, it is illegal to board a train without a
> >> >valid ticket.
>
> >> I believe that there is a Byelaw that states exactly that.
>
> > No, not "exactly" that.  There's a list of circumstances (basically,
> > there was no opportunity to purchase a ticket at the station before
> > boarding) under which it's *not* an offence.
>
> The Byelaws are available from http://www.sra.gov.uk/pubs2/industry/
>
> Byelaws 17 & 18 refer.




They seem to say that you mustn't do it, rather than that it's illegal.
 I'm not sure that's the same thing.

MIG wrote on Sun, 21 Aug 2005

>
>David Biddulph wrote:
>> "Alan J. Flavell"  wrote in message
>> news:Pine.LNX.4.62.0508211727110.27520@ppepc56.ph.gla.ac.uk...
>> > On Sun, 21 Aug 2005, Neil Williams wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:54:09 +0100, Stevie D
>> >>  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >I can't remember the exact wording, but I'm sure TransPennine Express
>> >> >have had posters at Selby and other stations (not in a PFZ) that say,
>> >> >or at the very least imply, it is illegal to board a train without a
>> >> >valid ticket.
>>
>> >> I believe that there is a Byelaw that states exactly that.
>>
>> > No, not "exactly" that.  There's a list of circumstances (basically,
>> > there was no opportunity to purchase a ticket at the station before
>> > boarding) under which it's *not* an offence.
>>
>> The Byelaws are available from http://www.sra.gov.uk/pubs2/industry/
>>
>> Byelaws 17 & 18 refer.
>
>They seem to say that you mustn't do it, rather than that it's illegal.
> I'm not sure that's the same thing.
>

Byelaw 24 should resolve anyone's doubt:  "Any person who breaches any 
of these Byelaws commits an offence ...".
-- 
Iain Archer            To email, please use Reply-To address

Iain Archer wrote:

>
> Byelaw 24 should resolve anyone's doubt:  "Any person who breaches any
> of these Byelaws commits an offence ...".


They're a bit on the totalitarian side, aren't they? I wonder if they
were cribbed from the Dritte Reichbahn. Especially bye-law 10(3): "No
person shall open a train door (...) while it is in motion or between
stations". So, no trips to the buffet, or indeed to the lavatory. Not
that you're allowed to use the lavatory anyway, for "No person shall
drop litter or leave waste on the railway" (bye-law 6(7)).
-- 
Pat Ricroft, City of Salford, UK
================================

Neil Sunderland wrote:

> 
> >Neil Sunderland wrote:
> >> Try asking them what it says about Excess Fares in the Retail Manual
> >> Part One.
> 
> Adam Funk wrote:
> >Is that available on the web?
> 
> If it is, I can't find it. Believe me, I've tried :-(  


Me too. However, a helpful (and "old school") station wallah has kindly
photocopied the page relevant to Savers (F.31) for me, which I shall now
type out for your entertainment and education. It's dated January 1996
but it's still current, or at least it was last week.

===== begin quote =====

Excess Fares - Saver Returns (including High Savers to London
International)

No opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding
----------------------------------------------

Travel at a time or on a train for which a Saver ticket is not valid:

A) Travel in one direction
Charge the difference between the fare already paid and the Standard
Return fare for the journey being made.

B) Travel in both directions
Charge the difference between the fare already paid and the Standard
Return fare for the journey being made.

Travel by a route on which a higher fare applies:

A) Travel in one direction
Charge half the difference between the fare already paid and the Saver
Return fare for the journey being made. If there is no through fare,
charge the appropriate Single fare for the part of the journey not
covered by the ticket held.

B) Travel in both directions
Charge the difference between the fare already paid and the Saver Return
fare for the journey actually made. If there is no through fare, charge
the appropriate Return fare for the part of the journey not covered by
the ticket held.

Travel in First Class:

A) Travel in one direction
Charge half the difference between the fare paid and the Standard Return
fare for the journey being made PLUS the difference between the Standard
Single fare and the First Class Single fare for the journey being made.
Or, if cheaper, charge the First Class Single fare for the journey being
made.

B) Travel in both directions
Charge the difference between the fare paid and the First Class Return
fare for the journey being made.

Over-distance travel to a destination beyond that shown on the ticket:

A) Travel in one direction
Charge the appropriate Single fare for the additional section of the
journey. Or, if cheaper, charge half the difference between the fare
already paid and the Saver Return fare for the throughout journey being
made.

B) Travel in both directions
Charge the appropriate Return fare paid for the additional section of
the journey. Or, if cheaper, charge the difference between the fare
already paid and the Saver Return fare for the throughout journey being
made.


Opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding
-------------------------------------------

Travel at a time or on a train for which a Saver ticket is not valid:

A) Travel in one direction
Charge the difference between the fare already paid and the 
Standard Return fare for the journey being made.

B) Travel in both directions
Charge the difference between the fare already paid and the Standard
Return fare for the journey being made.

Travel by a route on which a higher fare applies:

A) Travel in one direction
Charge half the difference between the fare already paid and the Saver
Return fare for the journey being made. If there is no through fare,
charge the appropriate Single fare for the part of the journey not
covered by the ticket held.

B) Travel in both directions
Charge the difference between the fare already paid and the Saver Return
fare for the journey actually made. If there is no through fare, charge
the appropriate Return fare for the part of the journey not covered by
the ticket held.

Travel in First Class:

A) Travel in one direction
Charge half the difference between the fare paid and the Standard Return
fare for the journey being made PLUS the difference between the Standard
Single fare and the First Class Single fare for the journey being made.
Or, if cheaper, charge the First Class Single fare for the journey being
made.

B) Travel in both directions
Charge the difference between the fare paid and the First Class Return
fare for the journey being made.

Over-distance travel to a destination beyond that shown on the ticket:

A) Travel in one direction
Charge the Standard Single fare for the additional section of the
journey. Or, if cheaper, charge half the difference between the fare
already paid and the Standard Return fare for the throughout journey
being made.

B) Travel in both directions
Charge the Standard Return fare for the additional section of the
journey. Or, if cheaper, charge the difference between the fare paid
and the Standard Return fare for the throughout journey being made.

=====  end quote  =====

If Railcards are involved there are slightly different rules, depending
(for example) on whether the Railcard applies to First Class travel or
not.

Note that the bits on over-distance travel do not appear to distinguish
between outward leg and return leg. Say you have a Saver that's valid
from Preston to Birmingham. You might actually travel from Preston to
Milton Keynes and back. But you might equally travel from Preston to
Birmingham, and on the way back, continue to Carlisle. In this case, I
/suspect/ that a diligent gripper will take the view that your ticket
ceases to be valid once you've arrived back at Preston, and that a
Standard Single from Preston to Carlisle is now indicated. Any grippers
care to comment?
-- 
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================
Do something amazing. Give blood.
<http://www.blood.co.uk/>

Alan Crawshaw wrote:

> 
> I'm confused by excesses too. My daughter will be travelling from
> Cambridge to Bangor on a saver return with a YP railcard. She wants to
> break her return journey in York and Birmingham, staying overnight in
> each city. Birmingham is a permitted route but not York.


I think you would struggle to include both Birmingham and York in a
single return trip, even if both were permitted routes. Which they're
not. The nearest you can get to York is Sheffield, by my reading of the
RG.

Your daughter could possibly travel from Bangor to Sheffield (change at
Manchester Oxford Road), then buy a single from Sheffield to York,
followed by a single from York to Birmingham, then continue home with
the original Saver. However, this means a jump from one route to
another, which is a bit naughty (though I can't actually see anything in
the RG to prohibit it).

How about spending a night in Birmingham and /then/ a night in York?
This would be comparatively painless. Direct train from Bangor to
Birmingham. Direct train from Birmingham to Peterborough. Buy a Saver
Return to go from Peterborough to York and back to Peterborough.
Complete journey by direct train from Peterborough to Cambridge.

I can't see any simpler way of doing it and in all fairness, I can't see
how it would be any easier by any alternative mode. OK, by car you're
just paying so much a mile, but it's still a long way out of your way to
visit all 4 of these places in one trip.

Cheapest rail option, if you have to visit York before Birmingham, would
probably be Saver Return from Cambridge to Bangor, plus Saver Return
from Crewe to York. But it's time consuming. Quickest rail option,
regardless of price, would be Saver Return to Bangor plus Single from
Chester to York plus Single from York to Birmingham.
-- 
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================
Do something amazing. Give blood.
<http://www.blood.co.uk/>

Joyce Whitchurch wrote:


> Now, the AA reckon that Bangor to York is 169 miles. York to Brum is 141
> miles. And Brum back to Cambridge is 97 miles. Total, for the roundabout
> route: 407 miles. Oh, and add in the Cambridge - Bangor leg again (235
> miles) and we've got overall mileage for the complete trip of 642 miles.


So about 60 in direct costs for fuel, total cost between 100-200.


> You appear to be suggesting that the railways should allow someone to
> make a circuitous journey, covering significant additional mileage, for
> little more than the cost of the direct journey. Surely not!


I don't think that's Neil's argument at all.

If I want to travel from Manchester to York by train, that's 20.40
SVR, which is 14p/mile.
From York to Birmingham is 41.70 SVR, or 16p/mile.
From Birmingham to Manchester is 26.80 SVR, or 16p/mile.

Those are not particularly cheap, but they are quite reasonable fares.

But if you want to make a round trip Manchester > York > Birmingham >
Manchester, you need to buy single tickets.
The comparable single fares are 16.20, 33.00 and 21.00, giving a
total of 70.20 - or 25p/mile.
It is not the absolute fare we are concerned with here, but the
differential rate. Approx 15p/mile on return tickets, but 25p/mile for
single tickets, on the same routes.

That is why single tickets are disproportionately expensive, and need
to be brought closer to line with returns. I disagree that they need
to be exactly half the price, but no more than 60% of the comparable
return fare would seem a reasonable compromise.

The problem is "comparable return fare". Of the single fares above,
one is SDS and the others SOS - whereas the returns are all off-peak
SVRs, so one would expect them to offer a better rate. Why are cheap
walk-on single tickets so rare?
 

> Meanwhile, let's have a look at the actual rail costs. Saver, Cambridge
> to Bangor - GBP 76.60. Saver, Crewe to York - GBP 33.20. Total cost: GBP
> 109.80 (less 34 percent with a Railcard of course). The price of the
> Crewe - York ticket adds 43 per cent to the cost of the total journey
> which, I venture to suggest, is not outrageously out of line when
> compared with the additional mileage.
> 
> > This is a perfect example why, with the possible exception of CDRs,
> > single=return/2 should apply to all tickets and not just AP ones.
> 
> As a general rule, the price of a Single ticket is indeed half the price
> of a Return ticket, but of course I'm talking about Standard fares. What
> you are asking for is a discounted single fare, but discounts tend to
> come with conditions, either you book ahead or you commit yourself to a
> return trip.
> 
> Now, if your beef is with the level of Standard fares, I can understand
> that. But if you decide to halve all the Standard fares, then you'll
> need to look at supplements to travel on trains that are already very
> busy. Which works on the Continent, of course.



-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:11:38 +0000 (UTC), Joyce Whitchurch
 wrote:


>You appear to be suggesting that the railways should allow someone to
>make a circuitous journey, covering significant additional mileage, for
>little more than the cost of the direct journey. Surely not!


No, I don't.


>Now, if your beef is with the level of Standard fares, I can understand
>that. But if you decide to halve all the Standard fares, then you'll
>need to look at supplements to travel on trains that are already very
>busy. Which works on the Continent, of course.


My beef is with the fact that Single fares, of whatever type other
than the recent AP changes, are unjustifiably high, and should be
reduced to half the return fare of the equivalent type, with the
exception of the CDR on some longer-distance journeys where half a CDR
is vastly too low for an off-peak single.

The correct ticketing for such a journey is three singles.  The
railway should not penalise this and thus reduce us to looking for
holes in the routeing guide to allow us to make such journeys.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:21:53 +0100, Stevie D
 wrote:


>The problem is "comparable return fare". Of the single fares above,
>one is SDS and the others SOS - whereas the returns are all off-peak
>SVRs, so one would expect them to offer a better rate. Why are cheap
>walk-on single tickets so rare?


SDS/SOS (what's the difference?  Why not lose one of them and rename
to simply "Standard Single"?) should be full-price tickets, priced at
half the Standard Open/Day Return, and should be fully-flexible.
There should then exist an off-peak Saver Single at half the Saver
Return.  That should do for walk-on.

I see no reason why single or complicated journeys should be penalised
over return journeys.  I also don't see why, if a journey is made in
one direction in the peak, why one should not be encouraged to return
off-peak by being able to combine a Standard Single with a Saver
Single without undue cost for doing so.  Otherwise, having been forced
into buying a Standard Open Return, one may feel encouraged to return
in the peak anyway because it's already paid for.  Not what the
railway want to encourage!

The Cheap Day Return is the only potential exception, because on many
flows a Cheap Day Single at half its price would be excessively cheap.
This could be an argument that the return is too cheap, however!  On
many local flows where CDRs aren't *that* cheap and no period
ticketing exists, CDR/2=CDS may be entirely sensible.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Neil Williams wrote:

> 
> SDS/SOS (what's the difference?  Why not lose one of them and rename
> to simply "Standard Single"?) 


These days, it's a very subtle difference. I refer the hon. Usenaut to
<http://atoc.org/traveltrade/manuals/nfm/sectione-pages1-17.pdf>,
wherein the key difference is shown to be the ability to break a journey
overnight and carry on the next day.

"Break of journey is allowed with an SOS ticket. Although National Rail
Conditions of Carriage (condition 11) restricts the use of tickets after
the expiry date, an SOS ticket may be used on the day following that
shown on the ticket with a break of journey allowed for an overnight
stay. Where the journey continues into the next day, the journey must be
recommenced before midday and no further break of journey is allowed,
except for the purpose of changing trains."

Not a lot of people know that!
-- 
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================
Do something amazing. Give blood.
<http://www.blood.co.uk/>

Neil Williams wrote:

> 
> My beef is with the fact that Single fares, of whatever type other
> than the recent AP changes, are unjustifiably high, and should be
> reduced to half the return fare of the equivalent type, with the
> exception of the CDR on some longer-distance journeys where half a CDR
> is vastly too low for an off-peak single.


This brings us into the minefield of revenue protection on lines
characterised by short journeys and sporadic ticket inspection. Singles
are often deliberately priced high to encourage return travellers (the
majority) to get a return ticket before boarding the train. Otherwise
they're not saving anything by waiting for the gripper to ask for a
ticket, and if no gripper appears, they've avoided paying a fare at all.
Which brings us to Penalty Fares, but let's not go there at this time of
night!

I suppose that the new cheapo singles being touted by MML and GNER, and
pioneered by VT, are what you're after - but they are, I think, all
train specific and quota controlled. That might be OK for the OP's
daughter, making relatively long journeys for which there may be little
choice of train to use. But /I/ wouldn't want to be obliged to specify
my trains in advance. I much prefer the flexibility of the walk-up
ticket.
-- 
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================
Do something amazing. Give blood.
<http://www.blood.co.uk/>

Neil Williams wrote:

>
> My beef is with the fact that Single fares, of whatever type other
> than the recent AP changes, are unjustifiably high, and should be
> reduced to half the return fare of the equivalent type, with the
> exception of the CDR on some longer-distance journeys where half a CDR
> is vastly too low for an off-peak single.


Drop a line to the House of Commons Transport Committee - they're
starting an inquiry into railway ticket pricing. "Interested parties
are invited to submit written memoranda to the Committee before Monday
3 October 2005."

<http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/transport_committee/trans05_06_press_notice05.cfm>.
-- 
Pat Ricroft, City of Salford, UK
================================

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:44:01 +0000 (UTC), Joyce Whitchurch
 wrote:


>> >> Try asking them what it says about Excess Fares in the Retail Manual
>> >> Part One.
>> 
>> Adam Funk wrote:
>> >Is that available on the web?
>> 
>> If it is, I can't find it. Believe me, I've tried :-(  
>
>Me too. However, a helpful (and "old school") station wallah has kindly
>photocopied the page relevant to Savers (F.31) for me, which I shall now
>type out for your entertainment and education.


Thanks very much for this. It clarifies a lot of things.

The instructions are written as if they are to be applied by on-train
staff (what with the distinction between having an opportunity to buy
a ticket before boarding and not). Can all of the same excesses
(presumably following similar rules to those under "No opportunity to
buy a ticket before boarding") be obtained at a ticket office before
travelling? (Bearing in mind that I'm sure staff don't want the Retail
Manual quoted at them by punters.)

asdf wrote:

> 
> The instructions are written as if they are to be applied by on-train
> staff (what with the distinction between having an opportunity to buy
> a ticket before boarding and not). Can all of the same excesses
> (presumably following similar rules to those under "No opportunity to
> buy a ticket before boarding") be obtained at a ticket office before
> travelling?


All I know is that I'm quoting from a page in the Retail Manual Part
One, which is a big book to be found in ticket offices. I agree that the
wording does suggest that these instructions are intended for on-train
excessing, but they seem to apply equally to excesses at stations.

Perhaps one of our resident booking clerks can clarify.
-- 
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================
Do something amazing. Give blood.
<http://www.blood.co.uk/>

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:44:01 +0000 (UTC), in article
, Joyce Whitchurch
 wrote in uk.railway: 



>Me too. However, a helpful (and "old school") station wallah has kindly
>photocopied the page relevant to Savers (F.31) for me, which I shall now
>type out for your entertainment and education. It's dated January 1996
>but it's still current, or at least it was last week.

(snip)

>Note that the bits on over-distance travel do not appear to distinguish
>between outward leg and return leg. Say you have a Saver that's valid
>from Preston to Birmingham. You might actually travel from Preston to
>Milton Keynes and back. But you might equally travel from Preston to
>Birmingham, and on the way back, continue to Carlisle. In this case, I
>/suspect/ that a diligent gripper will take the view that your ticket
>ceases to be valid once you've arrived back at Preston, and that a
>Standard Single from Preston to Carlisle is now indicated. Any grippers
>care to comment?


The Conditions have a different view when it comes to overtravelling and
not having a ticket:

:16. If you travel to a station or zone beyond the one specified on your
:ticket, you will be treated as having joined the train without a valid
:ticket for that additional part of your journey and Condition 7 or 8 
:(whichever is relevant) will apply to it as if it were a separate journey.

7 being standard fare, 8 being penalty fare.

So the view that I take and practice is that I grip the train. If
somebody says that they're going past the destination shown on the
ticket *before* the train gets to that location, I will excess. It's
nearly always cheaper.

If the train has gone past the location where ticket 1 expires, and the
passenger asks for an additional ticket before I point out that the
train's been and gone from the station on their ticket, then I will in
all probability excess.

If I have to say something, the odds are that it'll be a standard
single, as per Conditions 16 and 7. The location at which the passenger
boarded the train will decide whether condition 7 applies, but as in all
instances, each case is taken on it's own merits, location, prior grips,
anything that might have a bearing. 

There is an opposite to this, as there is no rule about travelling from
somewhere before a ticket kicks in.

When I worked fast morning peak trains from Preston to Manchester, the
train stopped at Chorley, then Lostock. Chorley is in Lancashire,
Lostock is 3 stations inside the GMPTE area.

A number of passengers, if not the majority of those getting on at
Chorley would have Greater Manchester Traincards or County Bus & Train
Savers (Countycards,) along with a further season ticket from Blackrod
to Chorley. Even though the train did not stop at Blackrod, this was
perfectly acceptable as the traincard or countycard, although a season
ticket does not count as a season ticket for the purposes of the
combination ticket rule. The Blackrod to Chorley one does, and therefore
the rule of one ticket being a season and the other one not is obeyed.

Those with traincards or countycards and nothing else (not many, maybe 2
on a train,) would ask for a single *if challenged* to Blackrod, the PTE
boundary. Nobody would ask for one when I reached them in the first
place, I would have to challenge them. I would charge to Lostock, the
first station inside the boundary at which the train stopped. The reason
why is that Lostock is my first GMPTE station, and so that would be
where their ticket would commence. The combination of tickets rules
would not apply as opportunity to buy a ticket was provided, the
passenger did not have a valid ticket when boarding the train - and so
no ticket combination existed at the time of checking the ticket that
covered the entire journey. FUrthermore, a single ticket and a traincard
counts as two non-season tickets - see above, and so a single ticket to
Blackrod would not be part of a valid combination anyway.

I did once withdraw a traincard that had been used from Chorley. It was
the third time I had prompted that person that week, I had charged the
first day, charged and warned I would withdraw the second, and withdrew
on the third. Can't say they didn't get fair warning.

Cheers,
Chris Pemberton, Pendleton, Salford, Lancs.
-- 
This post contains my personal opinion only. If I am in a position to
speak for somebody I'll say so.

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:13:58 +0100, Chris Pemberton
 wrote:


>A number of passengers, if not the majority of those getting on at
>Chorley would have Greater Manchester Traincards or County Bus & Train
>Savers (Countycards,) along with a further season ticket from Blackrod
>to Chorley.


....because Chorley used to have a sign up recommending this as being
better value than the through season!

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:36:25 +0000 (UTC), Joyce Whitchurch
 wrote:


>I can't see any simpler way of doing it and in all fairness, I can't see
>how it would be any easier by any alternative mode. OK, by car you're
>just paying so much a mile, but it's still a long way out of your way to
>visit all 4 of these places in one trip.


By car you wouldn't have to split hairs over ticketing.  You'd just
drive there.  It wouldn't cost you 3 times as much as the direct
journey, either, which using singles probably would.

This is a perfect example why, with the possible exception of CDRs,
single=return/2 should apply to all tickets and not just AP ones.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Neil Williams wrote:

> 
> On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:36:25 +0000 (UTC), Joyce Whitchurch
>  wrote:
> 
> >I can't see any simpler way of doing it and in all fairness, I can't see
> >how it would be any easier by any alternative mode. OK, by car you're
> >just paying so much a mile, but it's still a long way out of your way to
> >visit all 4 of these places in one trip.
> 
> By car you wouldn't have to split hairs over ticketing.  You'd just
> drive there.  It wouldn't cost you 3 times as much as the direct
> journey, either, which using singles probably would.


Well, according to the AA route planner, Cambridge to Bangor is 235
miles one way, so that's 470 miles for a return trip over the same
route.

Now, the AA reckon that Bangor to York is 169 miles. York to Brum is 141
miles. And Brum back to Cambridge is 97 miles. Total, for the roundabout
route: 407 miles. Oh, and add in the Cambridge - Bangor leg again (235
miles) and we've got overall mileage for the complete trip of 642 miles.
Or to put it another way, an increase in overall mileage, and presumably
overall costs, of 36 per cent, compared with the straightforward
out-and-back journey.

You appear to be suggesting that the railways should allow someone to
make a circuitous journey, covering significant additional mileage, for
little more than the cost of the direct journey. Surely not!

Meanwhile, let's have a look at the actual rail costs. Saver, Cambridge
to Bangor - GBP 76.60. Saver, Crewe to York - GBP 33.20. Total cost: GBP
109.80 (less 34 percent with a Railcard of course). The price of the
Crewe - York ticket adds 43 per cent to the cost of the total journey
which, I venture to suggest, is not outrageously out of line when
compared with the additional mileage.


> This is a perfect example why, with the possible exception of CDRs,
> single=return/2 should apply to all tickets and not just AP ones.


As a general rule, the price of a Single ticket is indeed half the price
of a Return ticket, but of course I'm talking about Standard fares. What
you are asking for is a discounted single fare, but discounts tend to
come with conditions, either you book ahead or you commit yourself to a
return trip.

Now, if your beef is with the level of Standard fares, I can understand
that. But if you decide to halve all the Standard fares, then you'll
need to look at supplements to travel on trains that are already very
busy. Which works on the Continent, of course.
-- 
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================
Do something amazing. Give blood.
<http://www.blood.co.uk/>