I had the pleasure of taking the only direct train from Nottingham -
Leeds yesterday.  I have to say what an utter delight it was to take
this nice HST train on a journey that usually really pisses me off (with
having to use Voyagers and Central Trains).

One of the things that makes this journey particulary pleasant is that
the train is always virtually empty between Notts and Leeds.  In fact I
pretty much had a full carriage to myself for the whole journey
yesterday!

This begs the question, why do MML operate this service?

Surely it would be more profitable for them to terminate at Notts,
unless the train is needed in Leeds for one of the early morning
Leeds-StPancras services?

I still try to avoid the awful Meridians when doing Notts-London, will
the HSTs be gradually phased out?

Cheers
Brian

Brian Harper wrote:


> This begs the question, why do MML operate this service?


You're probably correct in assuming the train is needed for the early
morning train to London.

If travelling from London to Leeds I would go from Kings Cross as it's
quicker and there's more options.

Many people going from Nottingham-Leeds would travel much earlier in
the evening.

peter

"Brian Harper"  wrote in message 
news:430472D8.4B4FFED8@ntlworld.com...

>I had the pleasure of taking the only direct train from Nottingham -
> Leeds yesterday.  I have to say what an utter delight it was to take
> this nice HST train on a journey that usually really pisses me off (with
> having to use Voyagers and Central Trains).
>
> One of the things that makes this journey particulary pleasant is that
> the train is always virtually empty between Notts and Leeds.  In fact I
> pretty much had a full carriage to myself for the whole journey
> yesterday!
>
> This begs the question, why do MML operate this service?
>
> Surely it would be more profitable for them to terminate at Notts,
> unless the train is needed in Leeds for one of the early morning
> Leeds-StPancras services?
>
> I still try to avoid the awful Meridians when doing Notts-London, will
> the HSTs be gradually phased out?
>
> Cheers
> Brian
>

Presumably a positining movement to get stock to Leeds either for servicing 
at Neville Hill or, as you surmised, for an early-morning departure from 
Leeds.
Brian

In message , at 11:32:58 on Thu, 18 Aug 
2005, Brian Harper  remarked:

>In fact I pretty much had a full carriage to myself for the whole 
>journey yesterday!
>
>This begs the question, why do MML operate this service?


In my experience the same is true of many MML services north of 
Leicester. While it's very nice to have them operate the route, they do 
seem to be lacking customers much of the time. Some of this is their 
fares policy (cheaper and more flexible to go via Grantham, although 
there are fewer connections).


>I still try to avoid the awful Meridians when doing Notts-London, will
>the HSTs be gradually phased out?


Most of them, apparently, to be replaced by the 9-car Meridians.
-- 
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
news:$b8U4qV7gJBDFAZr@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk...

> In message , at 11:32:58 on Thu, 18 Aug 
> 2005, Brian Harper  remarked:
>>In fact I pretty much had a full carriage to myself for the whole journey 
>>yesterday!
>>
>>This begs the question, why do MML operate this service?
>
> In my experience the same is true of many MML services north of Leicester. 
> While it's very nice to have them operate the route, they do seem to be 
> lacking customers much of the time. Some of this is their fares policy 
> (cheaper and more flexible to go via Grantham, although there are fewer 
> connections).
>
>>I still try to avoid the awful Meridians when doing Notts-London, will
>>the HSTs be gradually phased out?
>
> Most of them, apparently, to be replaced by the 9-car Meridians.
> -- 

So you keep saying, but who will pay the leasing charges on the displaced 
HSTs?

PF

In message <de553l$2iq$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, at 
17:32:37 on Fri, 19 Aug 2005, Peter Fox  
remarked:

>> Most of them, apparently, to be replaced by the 9-car Meridians.

>So you keep saying, but who will pay the leasing charges on the displaced
>HSTs?


I don't know, nor I suspect do the MML foot-soldiers who told me all 
this. All they know is (assuming they were telling the truth, and they 
seemed to be) what they expect to be happening on the ground in the 
foreseeable future.
-- 
Roland Perry

"Peter Fox"  wrote in message 
news:de553l$2iq$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

>
> "Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
> news:$b8U4qV7gJBDFAZr@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk...
>> In message , at 11:32:58 on Thu, 18 Aug 
>> 2005, Brian Harper  remarked:
>>>In fact I pretty much had a full carriage to myself for the whole journey 
>>>yesterday!
>>>
>>>This begs the question, why do MML operate this service?
>>
>> In my experience the same is true of many MML services north of 
>> Leicester. While it's very nice to have them operate the route, they do 
>> seem to be lacking customers much of the time. Some of this is their 
>> fares policy (cheaper and more flexible to go via Grantham, although 
>> there are fewer connections).
>>
>>>I still try to avoid the awful Meridians when doing Notts-London, will
>>>the HSTs be gradually phased out?
>>
>> Most of them, apparently, to be replaced by the 9-car Meridians.
>> -- 
> So you keep saying, but who will pay the leasing charges on the displaced 
> HSTs?
>
> PF


Us, as taxpayers, probably. <sigh>

Actually it doesn't really matter because one way or the other we'll end up 
paying for two sets of trains.

Over the last year or so the HSTs had a refurb and were "type approved" for 
another 12 yrs - so they will be around for a while yet.
I would love to see the end of them tho, they're a sod to work!
The reason MML run to Leeds is, in the main, contractual/franchise 
commitments.
The nine car Meridian sets where originally meant for use in an upgraded 
(more frequent) service from STP to LDS, but the authorities pulled the plug 
at the last minute, leaving MML with millions of pounds worth  (in 
non-cancellable contractual leasing terms) of nine car sets, which stood at 
Derby doing nowt.
They are being introduced on the NTM to STP route simply to do something 
with them. They are soon to be integrated into the DBY to STP hourly shuttle 
too.

DE
"John Tattersall"  wrote in message 
news:de877g$o23$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
> "Peter Fox"  wrote in message 
> news:de553l$2iq$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>
>> "Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
>> news:$b8U4qV7gJBDFAZr@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk...
>>> In message , at 11:32:58 on Thu, 18 Aug 
>>> 2005, Brian Harper  remarked:
>>>>In fact I pretty much had a full carriage to myself for the whole 
>>>>journey yesterday!
>>>>
>>>>This begs the question, why do MML operate this service?
>>>
>>> In my experience the same is true of many MML services north of 
>>> Leicester. While it's very nice to have them operate the route, they do 
>>> seem to be lacking customers much of the time. Some of this is their 
>>> fares policy (cheaper and more flexible to go via Grantham, although 
>>> there are fewer connections).
>>>
>>>>I still try to avoid the awful Meridians when doing Notts-London, will
>>>>the HSTs be gradually phased out?
>>>
>>> Most of them, apparently, to be replaced by the 9-car Meridians.
>>> -- 
>> So you keep saying, but who will pay the leasing charges on the displaced 
>> HSTs?
>>
>> PF
>
> Us, as taxpayers, probably. <sigh>
>
> Actually it doesn't really matter because one way or the other we'll end 
> up paying for two sets of trains.
>
> 

In message <de9dct$6k1$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, at 09:18:37 on Sun, 
21 Aug 2005, Dave  remarked:

>Over the last year or so the HSTs had a refurb and were "type approved" for
>another 12 yrs - so they will be around for a while yet.


Somewhere on the system, but not many on MML it seems.


>I would love to see the end of them tho, they're a sod to work!


Trouble is, the Meridians are a sod to be a passenger on.


>The reason MML run to Leeds is, in the main, contractual/franchise
>commitments.


Makes sense. Shame in a way, as they must lose a lot of money on it.


>The nine car Meridian sets where originally meant for use in an upgraded
>(more frequent) service from STP to LDS, but the authorities pulled the plug
>at the last minute, leaving MML with millions of pounds worth  (in
>non-cancellable contractual leasing terms) of nine car sets, which stood at
>Derby doing nowt.


At the time, people were pretty insistent that whoever it was picking up 
the tab, it wasn't MML. Possibly their parent company. Do you have new 
information about this?


>They are being introduced on the NTM to STP route simply to do something
>with them.


Wouldn't it be better to find a different ToC who could use of them? Or 
even use them to replace the 4+4 Meridians, and send some of the 4-cars 
to someone else? Isn't there a shortage of diesel power on the North 
Wales line? Central could still do with some better units on some of 
their long distance services (although they have received some newer 
stock from MML in the past).


>They are soon to be integrated into the DBY to STP hourly shuttle
>too.


That would be consistent.
-- 
Roland Perry

In article <de9dct$6k1$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, "Dave"
 wrote:


> Over the last year or so the HSTs had a refurb and were "type approved" for 
> another 12 yrs - so they will be around for a while yet.
> I would love to see the end of them tho, they're a sod to work!
> The reason MML run to Leeds is, in the main, contractual/franchise 
> commitments.
> The nine car Meridian sets where originally meant for use in an upgraded 
> (more frequent) service from STP to LDS, but the authorities pulled the plug 
> at the last minute, leaving MML with millions of pounds worth  (in 
> non-cancellable contractual leasing terms) of nine car sets, which stood at 
> Derby doing nowt.

yes we know that, except the last point, MML has not taklen the sets on
charge, except 007, AFAIAA, and thus is not paying for them. They are
owned by the ROSCO who, so far, has not been permitted to lease them to
anyone.

AB

In article , Roland
Perry  wrote:


> Wouldn't it be better to find a different ToC who could use of them? Or 
> even use them to replace the 4+4 Meridians, and send some of the 4-cars 
> to someone else? Isn't there a shortage of diesel power on the North 
> Wales line? Central could still do with some better units on some of 
> their long distance services (although they have received some newer 
> stock from MML in the past).
> 

Yes, lots of places we enthusiasts would like to see them, all such would
require extra payments from the DfT to whatever ToC and therefore will not
be allowed.

AB

"Andy Bunburry"  wrote in message
news:wottoast-2108051026500001@dial81-131-19-144.in-addr.btopenworld.com...

> In article <de9dct$6k1$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, "Dave"
>  wrote:
>
> > Over the last year or so the HSTs had a refurb and were "type approved"
for
> > another 12 yrs - so they will be around for a while yet.
> > I would love to see the end of them tho, they're a sod to work!
> > The reason MML run to Leeds is, in the main, contractual/franchise
> > commitments.
> > The nine car Meridian sets where originally meant for use in an upgraded
> > (more frequent) service from STP to LDS, but the authorities pulled the
plug
> > at the last minute, leaving MML with millions of pounds worth  (in
> > non-cancellable contractual leasing terms) of nine car sets, which stood
at
> > Derby doing nowt.
> yes we know that, except the last point, MML has not taklen the sets on
> charge, except 007, AFAIAA, and thus is not paying for them. They are
> owned by the ROSCO who, so far, has not been permitted to lease them to
> anyone.


Pretty close - we "may" see a second set go to MML soon - and the second
part would be better worded as "They are owned by the ROSCO and so far
nobody has been permitted to make a formal bid to take on the leases.

In fact I've seen some correspondence between a local MP and Alistair
Darling on this subject and either he has told her a lot of stuff which
could be deemed to be untrue (careful with my libels here..) or his
officials and the SRA have been less than truthful with him.

Either way I have armed the MP with plenty of ammunition which contradicts
what Darling has put in writing to her - and she has just confirmed she'll
be getting back to him!

TM

In article <dea3qv$3vh$1$8300dec7@news.beeb.net>, "Tony Miles"
 wrote:


> Pretty close - we "may" see a second set go to MML soon - and the second
> part would be better worded as "They are owned by the ROSCO and so far
> nobody has been permitted to make a formal bid to take on the leases.
> 
> In fact I've seen some correspondence between a local MP and Alistair
> Darling on this subject and either he has told her a lot of stuff which
> could be deemed to be untrue (careful with my libels here..) or his
> officials and the SRA have been less than truthful with him.
> 
> Either way I have armed the MP with plenty of ammunition which contradicts
> what Darling has put in writing to her - and she has just confirmed she'll
> be getting back to him!
> 
> TM


Of course you are more up to date than I, Tony, but do publish the (gist
of the) letters, they ought to be on the public record anyway!  Our
new-found lurker, aka RB, might be interested to see what has transpired
on this scandal of late!

AB

"Andy Bunburry"  wrote in message
news:wottoast-2108051655130001@dial81-131-115-202.in-addr.btopenworld.com...

> In article <dea3qv$3vh$1$8300dec7@news.beeb.net>, "Tony Miles"
>  wrote:
>
> > Pretty close - we "may" see a second set go to MML soon - and the second
> > part would be better worded as "They are owned by the ROSCO and so far
> > nobody has been permitted to make a formal bid to take on the leases.
> >
> > In fact I've seen some correspondence between a local MP and Alistair
> > Darling on this subject and either he has told her a lot of stuff which
> > could be deemed to be untrue (careful with my libels here..) or his
> > officials and the SRA have been less than truthful with him.
> >
> > Either way I have armed the MP with plenty of ammunition which
contradicts
> > what Darling has put in writing to her - and she has just confirmed
she'll
> > be getting back to him!
> >
> > TM
>
> Of course you are more up to date than I, Tony, but do publish the (gist
> of the) letters, they ought to be on the public record anyway!  Our
> new-found lurker, aka RB, might be interested to see what has transpired
> on this scandal of late!


Well - I'm assuming its in the next Modern Railways (I submitted it) so I
suppose I'd better not upset the ed by running it here - however if it
hasn't made it in (space tight I gather) I'll certainly run it here.

TM

In article <dear2r$9b5$1$8300dec7@news.beeb.net>, "Tony Miles"
 wrote:


> Well - I'm assuming its in the next Modern Railways (I submitted it) so I
> suppose I'd better not upset the ed by running it here - however if it
> hasn't made it in (space tight I gather) I'll certainly run it here.
> 
> TM


for once I might have to drag myself out and buy a copy of your esteemed organ!

I think, but I may be wrong, that all letters between an MP and a
government department are put in the public domain anyway.

Could ne fun, heads should roll over tbis, if they have not already/!

AB