Now then, when did they tweak this little bit of the Routeing Guide?
And how are we, the public, supposed to know that they've changed it?

Journeys between Manchester and London have traditionally been valid
via several routes - WCML and Rugby being the obvious one, but High
Wycombe being another and Oxford yet another. Looking at the online
guide, at <http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing%20Guide/splash.shtml>,
I discover to my irritation that permitted routes are now limited to:

GM+MA	~or~	MA	~or~	MM+PS

which translate very loosely as WCML plus assorted local lines around
Greater Manchester, or Hope Valley and Midland Main Line. The furthest
south you'll get now on a VXC service is Coventry.

Can anyone (Clive?) confirm my interpretation? The Routeing Guide is a
bit clunky when you're using Firefox (it's probably a bit clunky when
you're using Deep Thought but that's another matter).
-- 
Dean Lane, The Old Vitriol Works, Oldham, UK
============================================

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005, Joyce Whitchurch wrote:


> guide, at <http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing%20Guide/splash.shtml>,


"Nothing happens".

Hell's Bells, the Routeing guide used to work with my normal choice of 
browser security settings, but now it seems they've contrived to stop 
that from working too, at least from the URL that you've given.

Oh, hang on: if one enters at 
http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing%20Guide/enrg.htm , it looks as if 
it's still usable.


> I discover to my irritation that permitted routes are now limited to:
> 
> GM+MA	~or~	MA	~or~	MM+PS


That's what it says.


> which translate very loosely as WCML plus assorted local lines around
> Greater Manchester, or Hope Valley and Midland Main Line. The furthest
> south you'll get now on a VXC service is Coventry.
> 
> Can anyone (Clive?) confirm my interpretation? 


I'm not sure this needs the full power of Clive, you know: it looks 
clear enough to me as it did to you, given "Manchester Group" as the 
starting point.  You've accurately listed the currently-available map 
combinations, and summarised what they show, as far as I can tell.  I 
think your only remaining let-outs would be the shortest route (if 
it's not also mapped), and any direct trains.


CORE says:

Shortest route from Manchester Group to London Terminals

Distance: 183 miles 32 chains
From Manchester Group to Manchester Piccadilly (station within group), 
to Stockport, to Cheadle Hulme, to Kidsgrove via Macclesfield, to 
Stoke-on-Trent, to Barlaston, to Rugeley Trent Valley (avoiding 
Stafford), to Lichfield Trent Valley, to Tamworth, to Nuneaton, to 
Rugby, to Wolverton (avoiding Northampton), to Milton Keynes Central, 
to Bletchley, to Watford Junction, to Bushey (main line), to Harrow & 
Wealdstone, to Willesden Junction, to (London) Euston, to London 
Terminals (station within group). 



> The Routeing Guide is a bit clunky when you're using Firefox


I was using Mozilla, but so what?  If they can't design their web site 
to work on www-compatible browsers, then they need to find a 
convenient hobbyist to help them out, before the disability lobby 
tackles them about a court case for discrimination.

Hmmm, I see that my browser is alerting me to their javascript errors, 
so clearly I was wise to treat them as untrustworthy to be executing 
code on my browser.

ttfn

Joyce Whitchurch wrote:


> Journeys between Manchester and London have traditionally been valid
> via several routes - WCML and Rugby being the obvious one, but High
> Wycombe being another and Oxford yet another. Looking at the online
> guide, at <http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing%20Guide/splash.shtml>,
> I discover to my irritation that permitted routes are now limited to:
> 
> GM+MA	~or~	MA	~or~	MM+PS
> 
> which translate very loosely as WCML plus assorted local lines around
> Greater Manchester, or Hope Valley and Midland Main Line. The furthest
> south you'll get now on a VXC service is Coventry.


Agreed. WCML with all the usual permutations of Crewe, Stockport,
Stafford, Stoke, anything in the West Midlands, Northampton, plus
Earlestown and Warrington from Manchester.

Hope Valley and Midland Mainline.

That's it.

I suspect that Virgin were bitching about not getting enough of the
revenue from London-Manchester, and that has prompted the change.

(On another note, apart from the general clunkiness of the RG site,
why do the maps always load at the wrong size?)

(On a further note, why oh why would anyone pay an extra 50 (60 in
First) to travel from York to London _via Manchester_? It more than
doubles the journey time and adds at least one change.)

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

Stevie D wrote:

> I suspect that Virgin were bitching about not getting enough of the
> revenue from London-Manchester, and that has prompted the change.


What say does a TOC that's losing out from a routeing guide change have 
on the matter?

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:47:45 +0100, Stevie D
 wrote:


>(On a further note, why oh why would anyone pay an extra 50 (60 in
>First) to travel from York to London _via Manchester_? It more than
>doubles the journey time and adds at least one change.)


Someone from York who wishes to visit both Manchester and London, and
can't buy a triangular return because they don't exist any more?

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:47:45 +0100, Stevie D
 wrote:


>I suspect that Virgin were bitching about not getting enough of the
>revenue from London-Manchester, and that has prompted the change.


Or not; before the MML Manchester service, MML was not a permitted
route, but a specific routed ticket, usually at a higher price.  Now
MML are getting a revenue cut.

Perhaps VT complained about loss of revenue due to MML being *added*,
so the little-used routes via Chiltern were dropped?

Notably, though, Preston still has LM+CS allowing all the "old"
routes.  Liverpool is pretty much WCML only now, via Manchester
(surprisingly) being permitted as well, though seemingly only via Chat
Moss and not the CLC.

Thing is, how are pax to know about these changes?  With the coming of
singles, I think German-style explicit routeing should be given
serious consideration.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:13:38 GMT, wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
Williams) wrote:


>Notably, though, Preston still has LM+CS allowing all the "old"
>routes.  Liverpool is pretty much WCML only now, via Manchester
>(surprisingly) being permitted as well, though seemingly only via Chat
>Moss and not the CLC.


Actually, there is a map LN which is included that allows this.

What *isn't* permitted, though, is Liverpool Gp - Manchester Gp via
the CLC, which is really a rather silly omission as the main expresses
plus two stoppers an hour go that way.  OK, these are direct trains,
but strictly it now means that Aughton Park-Manchester is not now
valid via the CLC at all.  Oops.

Similarly stupidly, Preston-Wigan-Bolton-Manchester is permitted, but
Preston-Wigan-Atherton-Manchester isn't.

The old Ridiculous Route of
Liverpool-Earlestown-Chester-Northwich-Manchester appears, reasonably,
to have been plugged, mind.

I think ATOC need to have a look at all this again.  We have seemingly
gone from ridiculous Permitted Routes to ridiculous *non-permitted*
routes.  I have only looked at a small range of examples and have
found a good number of problems.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

asdf wrote:


> Stevie D wrote:
> 
>> (On a further note, why oh why would anyone pay an extra 50 (60 in
>> First) to travel from York to London _via Manchester_? It more than
>> doubles the journey time and adds at least one change.)
> 
> Someone from York who wishes to visit both Manchester and London, and
> can't buy a triangular return because they don't exist any more?


Given that triangular tickets have been withdrawn, I think it's safe
to say that there is not a significant demand for them.

Besides which, it is over 20 (10%) cheaper to get a Standard Open
Return from Hellifield to London, and a single from York to Manchester
(or vice versa) than a York to London SOR route Manchester.

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

Stevie D wrote:


> Given that triangular tickets have been withdrawn, I think it's safe
> to say that there is not a significant demand for them.


   ISTR reading that the ticketing system couldn't cope with them... 
Also slightly more trouble to handle and maybe not that well known 
about? There is an arguement for bringing them back on some routes - the 
S&C for instance - but maybe Rovers cover most of these already?


> Besides which, it is over 20 (10%) cheaper to get a Standard Open
> Return from Hellifield to London, and a single from York to Manchester
> (or vice versa) than a York to London SOR route Manchester.


   Unless you do this on a regular basis, are you likely to know about 
this? And are you likely to get this suggested if you don't know? There 
are plenty of cheaper ways to do most journeys but working them out 
needs a bit of knowledge.

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:36:07 GMT, Stephen Hughes 
wrote:


>   ISTR reading that the ticketing system couldn't cope with them... 
>Also slightly more trouble to handle and maybe not that well known 
>about? There is an arguement for bringing them back on some routes - the 
>S&C for instance - but maybe Rovers cover most of these already?


There is, or was, a S&C Round Robin Return that allows what you
describe.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Neil Williams wrote:


> There is, or was, a S&C Round Robin Return that allows what you
> describe.


   We used either this or a triangular ticket when I was a kid to do 
Sunderland > Carlisle > Leeds > Sunderland. I still remember the Peak 
from Leeds to York - first and I believe only time I travelled behind 
one in service.

   From Manchester I now recall that you can do the triangle as there is 
a via Leeds ticket to Carlisle so you just excess one half. These things 
only tend to work in specific circumstances though, not the more 'open' 
possibilities of the triangular tickets.

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:44:57 GMT, Stephen Hughes 
wrote:


>   From Manchester I now recall that you can do the triangle as there is 
>a via Leeds ticket to Carlisle so you just excess one half. These things 
>only tend to work in specific circumstances though, not the more 'open' 
>possibilities of the triangular tickets.


The other way to do it is to buy a ticket from $ORIGIN to a station
half-way down the S&C, e.g. Dent, which would have Permitted Routes
(or at the very least reasonable routes unlikely to be challenged)
both ways.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

"Stephen Hughes"  wrote in message 
news:J7WMe.7592$4y6.5428@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...

> Neil Williams wrote:
>
>> There is, or was, a S&C Round Robin Return that allows what you
>> describe.
>
>   We used either this or a triangular ticket when I was a kid to do 
> Sunderland > Carlisle > Leeds > Sunderland. I still remember the Peak from 
> Leeds to York - first and I believe only time I travelled behind one in 
> service.
>
>   From Manchester I now recall that you can do the triangle as there is a 
> via Leeds ticket to Carlisle so you just excess one half. These things 
> only tend to work in specific circumstances though, not the more 'open' 
> possibilities of the triangular tickets.


From the Manchester / Liverpool / Chester area, and are willing to spend 
54. Then you can do the "S&C Triangle Trip".
As an added benefit with this ticket you can repeat it for the next SIX 
days, or instead visit Dumfries, Lockerbie, Hexham, Carlisle to Carnforth 
via Sellafield, Morcambe, Blackpool, northern Trans Pennine routes, The 
"Little North-Western" and of course, Stalybridge and Huddersfield for a 
Beer!

http://tinyurl.com/bmbux

BTW. This ticket will let you travel 7 days from Warrington to Carlisle...Up 
& Back,  Up & Back,  Up & Back,  etc. (Just to see if you like them or to 
overcome un natural phobias of modern trains)

There is a 3 Day version but, not such a bargain.

KW

Joyce Whitchurch wrote:


> Journeys between Manchester and London have traditionally been valid
> via several routes - WCML and Rugby being the obvious one, but High
> Wycombe being another and Oxford yet another. Looking at the online
> guide, at <http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing%20Guide/splash.shtml>,
> I discover to my irritation that permitted routes are now limited to:
>
> GM+MA	~or~	MA	~or~	MM+PS
>
> which translate very loosely as WCML plus assorted local lines around
> Greater Manchester, or Hope Valley and Midland Main Line. The furthest
> south you'll get now on a VXC service is Coventry.
>


Interestingly, if you have a ticket to Manchester Airport you can still
use a plethora of routes including, for the only price comparison I
made (SVS - indentically priced to those to Manchester and Stockport),
some via Manchester. In fact the fares rule seems to allow you to take
any of Manchester, Stockport, Crewe or Stoke as your routeing point.
This includes routes via Banbury and even (for the brave or foolish to
try) from Waterloo via Salisbury and Newport(Wales).

There even appears to be an easement which allows doubling back at
Manchester or Stockport for "stations south of Macclesfield".

What a mess!

David

wrote in message 
news:1124359798.714968.153520@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Joyce Whitchurch wrote:
<SNIP>

>
> Interestingly, if you have a ticket to Manchester Airport you can still
> use a plethora of routes including, for the only price comparison I
> made (SVS - indentically priced to those to Manchester and Stockport),
> some via Manchester. In fact the fares rule seems to allow you to take
> any of Manchester, Stockport, Crewe or Stoke as your routeing point.
> This includes routes via Banbury and even (for the brave or foolish to
> try) from Waterloo via Salisbury and Newport(Wales).
>
> There even appears to be an easement which allows doubling back at
> Manchester or Stockport for "stations south of Macclesfield".


I have done the Manchester - Newport - Salisbury - Waterloo, but only on a 
"W&B direct service". On the same day I returned from Paddington via a 
change at Oxford. Far better than Busses substituting for the southern WCML.

I wonder as Bolton was valid via Wigan does this route avoid the new 
Manchester restrictions?

KW

PS.  I'm not that brave, so..................

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:15:00, "Ken Ward" 
wrote:

>
>From the Manchester / Liverpool / Chester area, and are willing to spend 
>54. Then you can do the "S&C Triangle Trip".
>As an added benefit with this ticket you can repeat it for the next SIX 
>days, or instead visit Dumfries, Lockerbie, Hexham, Carlisle to Carnforth 
>via Sellafield, Morcambe, Blackpool, northern Trans Pennine routes, The 
>"Little North-Western" and of course, Stalybridge and Huddersfield for a 
>Beer!
>
>http://tinyurl.com/bmbux


How does this get you to Dumfries, when First ScotRail is not one of
the applicable train operators?

Paul Harley

-- 
Remove "eeek" to contact me!

"Paul Harley"  wrote in message 
news:kuk9g1tteotgoaqbvvgrs2ft18hor9kdlq@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:15:00, "Ken Ward" 
> wrote:
>>
>>From the Manchester / Liverpool / Chester area, and are willing to spend
>>54. Then you can do the "S&C Triangle Trip".
>>As an added benefit with this ticket you can repeat it for the next SIX
>>days, or instead visit Dumfries, Lockerbie, Hexham, Carlisle to Carnforth
>>via Sellafield, Morcambe, Blackpool, northern Trans Pennine routes, The
>>"Little North-Western" and of course, Stalybridge and Huddersfield for a
>>Beer!
>>
>>http://tinyurl.com/bmbux
>
> How does this get you to Dumfries, when First ScotRail is not one of
> the applicable train operators?


It got me there without problems on the 7th of July, the broken 156 caused a 
few problems on the return though.
The website isnt best known for accuracy.

Believe me it beats a daytrip to London, and for about the same price.

KW.

Ken Ward wrote:

> 
> I wonder as Bolton was valid via Wigan does this route avoid the new
> Manchester restrictions?


Worth a look, if you've got the time to play with the online Routeing
Guide. I have found other stations that have both Manchester and
Warrington as routeing points. Warrington to London is still possible
via Banbury etc.

Incidentally, ticket offices seem to have a big new A4 size printed
Routeing Guide. Does anyone know if it's available for purchase? And if
so, who from? It's not been advertised by Teamwork Direct (who do the
Fares Manual).
-- 
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================
Do something amazing. Give blood.
<http://www.blood.co.uk/>

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005, Joyce Whitchurch wrote:


> Worth a look, if you've got the time to play with the online Routeing
> Guide. I have found other stations that have both Manchester and
> Warrington as routeing points.


Don't forget to compare fares to see which routeing point(s) are 
eligible!


> Incidentally, ticket offices seem to have a big new A4 size printed
> Routeing Guide. Does anyone know if it's available for purchase?


Is it dated?  Which one is valid at the time of ticket purchase, the 
printed version or the web version?  If they keep changing it every 
few weeks, then sooner or later we're going to get some jobsworth 
dishonouring the ticket at time of travel, even though it was valid 
when the customer entered into the contract.  Let's hope it happens to 
someone who can be bothered to take them to court for some juicy 
compensation for the breach of contract.

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:34:32 +0100, Paul Harley wrote:


> How does this get you to Dumfries, when First ScotRail is not one of
> the applicable train operators?


More perverse is the indication that the ticket allows you to travel in
"Scottish Borders".

-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9683724.html
(55006 (Class 122) at Stockport, Jun 1985)

"Alan J. Flavell" wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005, Joyce Whitchurch wrote:
> 
> > Worth a look, if you've got the time to play with the online Routeing
> > Guide. I have found other stations that have both Manchester and
> > Warrington as routeing points.
> 
> Don't forget to compare fares to see which routeing point(s) are
> eligible!


Good point. As luck would have it, the Saver fare to London is exactly
the same, whether from Warrington or from Manchester. The Open fares
aren't the same (much cheaper from Warrington) but then you don't really
need the routeing flexibility quite so much if you're buying an Open
ticket, as two singles tend to be the same price as one return (whereas
Saver singles are nearly the same price as returns).


> > Incidentally, ticket offices seem to have a big new A4 size printed
> > Routeing Guide. Does anyone know if it's available for purchase?
> 
> Is it dated?


No idea - I've only glimpsed it through the booking office window.


>  Which one is valid at the time of ticket purchase, the
> printed version or the web version?  If they keep changing it every
> few weeks, then sooner or later we're going to get some jobsworth
> dishonouring the ticket at time of travel, even though it was valid
> when the customer entered into the contract.  Let's hope it happens to
> someone who can be bothered to take them to court for some juicy
> compensation for the breach of contract.


Good point.

I note BTW that the "splash" version of the website has a "last updated"
pop-up window - currently saying "The Routeing Guide Data was last
updated: May 2005".
-- 
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================
Do something amazing. Give blood.
<http://www.blood.co.uk/>