Had two return Pendo trips on the WCML this week - my first real opportunity
to sample the new stock.

I feel the 'negatives' apparent at first glance - the small windows and
slightly claustrophobic feel - quickly fade into insignificance when the
positive aspects become apparent. For example, the really quite impressive
acceleration & braking characteristics; the firm but controlled ride; the
quietness; the entertainment system; the armrests you can fold rather than
clamber over as per MkII/MkIII.

Comment has been made at the Standard/First split. I suspect Virgin feel
that there's a lot of value to be added in encouraging leisure travellers to
take up FC advance purchase tickets. I suspect in the medium term they will
be proved absolutely correct, as I've noted on my travels that FC off-peak
occupancy seems healthy on all ex-IC TOCs, with the possible exception of
One Anglia. I feel it's good for the industry that sights have been lifted
beyond competing with the coach, and rail travel can perhaps be seen as
aspirational again. IMHO, Virgin now have a product (and service) to rival
GNER on the London - Scotland run, and I would be entirely happy to travel
with either - which is a nice state of affairs.

How far short are they, in terms of rolling stock, from being able to go
half-hourly to Liverpool?

Chris

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:20:27 +0000 (UTC), "Chris Read"
 wrote:


>
>Had two return Pendo trips on the WCML this week - my first real opportunity
>to sample the new stock.
>
>I feel the 'negatives' apparent at first glance - the small windows and
>slightly claustrophobic feel - quickly fade into insignificance when the
>positive aspects become apparent. For example, the really quite impressive
>acceleration & braking characteristics; the firm but controlled ride; the
>quietness; the entertainment system; the armrests you can fold rather than
>clamber over as per MkII/MkIII.
>
>Comment has been made at the Standard/First split. I suspect Virgin feel
>that there's a lot of value to be added in encouraging leisure travellers to
>take up FC advance purchase tickets. I suspect in the medium term they will
>be proved absolutely correct, as I've noted on my travels that FC off-peak
>occupancy seems healthy on all ex-IC TOCs, with the possible exception of
>One Anglia. I feel it's good for the industry that sights have been lifted
>beyond competing with the coach, and rail travel can perhaps be seen as
>aspirational again. IMHO, Virgin now have a product (and service) to rival
>GNER on the London - Scotland run, and I would be entirely happy to travel
>with either - which is a nice state of affairs.


I'd probably agree with all of this, but having had two trips on
Pendolinos today, I cannot agree with the last paragraph you write.

There is no way that I would pay for an upgrade to 1st on Virgin at
the weekend, due to the lack of at seat service and the long walk to
and wait at the "shop" if you want refreshments.

GNER don't provide a restaurant car at weekends (other than Inverness
- Perth), but they do provide at seat service in 1st class.

-- 
 
Regards

Mike

mikedotroebuckatgmxdotnet

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:20:27 +0000 (UTC), "Chris Read"
 wrote:


>How far short are they, in terms of rolling stock, from being able to go
>half-hourly to Liverpool?


I don't believe there ever was a plan to do this, stock or otherwise.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Chris Read  wrote:


> Had two return Pendo trips on the WCML this week - my first real opportunity
> to sample the new stock.
> 
> I feel the 'negatives' apparent at first glance - the small windows and
> slightly claustrophobic feel - quickly fade into insignificance when the
> positive aspects become apparent. For example, the really quite impressive
> acceleration & braking characteristics; the firm but controlled ride; the
> quietness; the entertainment system; the armrests you can fold rather than
> clamber over as per MkII/MkIII.


I do like the smoothness of the ride on the Pendolino, which I take
frequently from Manchester to London. However, I am still very
dissatisfied with the mobile phone reception on their trains. I do quite
a lot of data work (gprs) on the train, and I find the service
practically useless. I won't even answer the phone on the train, as it
is too frustrating, so I normally sit in the quiet coach. I could
imagine being very annoyed if I'd subscribed to one of the 3g data
services and I was mostly travelling on Virgin trains.

One thing I have noticed so frequently that I think it is a design
problem is that the air conditioning doesn't seem to work efficiently
throughout the whole train. If you walk to the buffet, you seem to go
through multiple temperature zones! I'm not an a/c freak, and it's a lot
better than the lamentable lack of a/c you often get on other providers
(as I was reminded on two stuffy TPX services yesterday) but if trains
are designed with sealed windows, then you expect a comfortable inside
temperature.

-- 
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
pictures at http://homepage.mac.com/davidhornecomposer

"Chris Read"  wrote:

>
>How far short are they, in terms of rolling stock, from being able to go
>half-hourly to Liverpool?



There cannot possibly be a market for this.  I suggest that an hourly
Liverpool service would not be as well loaded as a half-hourly
Manchester service.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:27:44 +0100, this_address_is_for_spam@yahoo.com
wrote:


> I do like the smoothness of the ride on the Pendolino, which I take
> frequently from Manchester to London. However, I am still very
> dissatisfied with the mobile phone reception on their trains.


Some people have said there is an anti-radio signal coating on the
windows. There may be. However, the other day, I was listening to Test
Match Special on R4 Long Wave, and ISTM that it was electrical noise
that was interfering, because I could hear the commentary very well from
time to time, which I took to be in neutral sections.
-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632770.html
(20 075 at Guide Bridge, Jun 1985)

Chris Tolley  wrote:


> On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:27:44 +0100, this_address_is_for_spam@yahoo.com
> wrote:
> 
> > I do like the smoothness of the ride on the Pendolino, which I take
> > frequently from Manchester to London. However, I am still very
> > dissatisfied with the mobile phone reception on their trains.
> 
> Some people have said there is an anti-radio signal coating on the
> windows. There may be. However, the other day, I was listening to Test
> Match Special on R4 Long Wave, and ISTM that it was electrical noise
> that was interfering, because I could hear the commentary very well from
> time to time, which I took to be in neutral sections.


It's certainly something. I can't get anything on my phone's FM radio
attachment. They have online radio, but that often has problems IME.

-- 
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
pictures at http://homepage.mac.com/davidhornecomposer

>
> I do like the smoothness of the ride on the Pendolino, which I take
> frequently from Manchester to London. However, I am still very
> dissatisfied with the mobile phone reception on their trains. I do quite
> a lot of data work (gprs) on the train, and I find the service
> practically useless. I won't even answer the phone on the train, as it
> is too frustrating, so I normally sit in the quiet coach. I could
> imagine being very annoyed if I'd subscribed to one of the 3g data
> services and I was mostly travelling on Virgin trains.
>


Funny, but I find the mobile phone reception works just how I like it.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Chris Tolley wrote:


> Some people have said there is an anti-radio signal coating on the
> windows. 


I think the windows have a metallised coating, probably intended to 
reduce the heat burden from strong sunshine.  I doubt that it's 
deliberately intended to be "anti-radio", although it does seem to 
have that effect, that's true.

I have a personal radio that usually works pretty well - normally 
tuned to VHF/VM.  It works in some areas on Pendolinos, provided that 
I disable the stereo - as one needs to do for a low-signal area - but 
the results are distinctly impaired, compared with being out of doors 
in the same place.  I'd attribute this to the poor signal getting 
through the metallised windows.


> However, the other day, I was listening to Test Match Special on R4 
> Long Wave, and ISTM that it was electrical noise that was 
> interfering, 


That makes sense.  I think one can expect that electrical noise is 
more likely to afflict LW and MW reception - and not only because it's 
AM as opposed to FM - as compared with VHF/FM, where it's the signal 
level that seems to be the dominant factor.

As for mobile phones...

Last trip I had, someone a couple of rows away seemed entirely 
incapable of drawing the obvious conclusion, and persisted in 
repeatedly (and I *do* mean repeatedly) making business calls on their 
mobile and making a complete fool of themselves, never managing to 
keep the call up for more than a minute or two at a time, then 
shouting HELLO HELLO ARE YOU THERE for a while into the unresponsive 
phone (who knows what that was supposed to achieve), then dialling the 
call again and wasting time trying to explain that they were "on the 
train" until the call failed again - followed over and over by repeats 
of the performance.

This just went on and on, so I was glad I had to change at Preston...

Since this was all done at a high volume, I'd say about half of the 
coach could have confirmed that he hadn't succeeded with a single item 
of actual business throughout the entire performance, although none of 
his business contacts could have been left in the slightest doubt that 
he was "on the train".  Ho hum.

cheers

Chris Read wrote:

> Had two return Pendo trips on the WCML this week - my first real opportunity
> to sample the new stock.
> 
> I feel the 'negatives' apparent at first glance - the small windows and
> slightly claustrophobic feel - quickly fade into insignificance when the
> positive aspects become apparent. For example, the really quite impressive
> acceleration & braking characteristics; the firm but controlled ride; the
> quietness; the entertainment system; the armrests you can fold rather than
> clamber over as per MkII/MkIII.
> 
> Comment has been made at the Standard/First split. I suspect Virgin feel
> that there's a lot of value to be added in encouraging leisure travellers to
> take up FC advance purchase tickets. I suspect in the medium term they will
> be proved absolutely correct, as I've noted on my travels that FC off-peak
> occupancy seems healthy on all ex-IC TOCs, with the possible exception of
> One Anglia. I feel it's good for the industry that sights have been lifted
> beyond competing with the coach, and rail travel can perhaps be seen as
> aspirational again. IMHO, Virgin now have a product (and service) to rival
> GNER on the London - Scotland run, and I would be entirely happy to travel
> with either - which is a nice state of affairs.
> 
> How far short are they, in terms of rolling stock, from being able to go
> half-hourly to Liverpool?
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 

I went on one this weekend, out on Saturday weekend first.
Claustrophobic impression caused by small windows, tilt profile and low
ceiling is unpleasant, but main irritation on outward journey was
vibration and rattle from loose panels. General impression is cheap and
cheerful even in first class, if I had paid full fare I would not feel I
was getting my money's worth.

Ride quality on return journey was poor, vibration and yawing, and heavy
rumble.

Ear splitting chimes preceding announcements.

Area round vestibules smell of drains, also noticeable on station platforms.

Heating was on (15 August)

Not nice, though not as bad as Voyagers.

Henry Law

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:27:44 +0100, this_address_is_for_spam@yahoo.com
(chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h
offy) wrote:


>One thing I have noticed so frequently that I think it is a design
>problem is that the air conditioning doesn't seem to work efficiently
>throughout the whole train. If you walk to the buffet, you seem to go
>through multiple temperature zones! 


I find that the cooling is pretty well-distributed through the
Pendolino - it comes out of the luggage rack instead of just two
locations on the ceiling on a lot of stock.  One of the reason for the
"zones" will be that (I think) there is no cooling in the vestibules,
nor in other locations where the luggage rack doesn't extend.

It's still not good enough, though, and I venture that the reason for
this is that heating is still provided separately through floor-level
radiators.  To be truly effective and uniform, the two systems need
combining.

I think the best approach would be to combine the systems, and have a
road-coach-style opening vent for each seat on the luggage rack.
Being able to have a breeze (however artificial) in my face is one of
the few things I prefer on road coaches over trains.  I think one
particular design of Networker has these, but I've seen them nowhere
else on the railway.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:49:00 GMT, Chris Tolley 
wrote:


>Some people have said there is an anti-radio signal coating on the
>windows. There may be. However, the other day, I was listening to Test
>Match Special on R4 Long Wave, and ISTM that it was electrical noise
>that was interfering, because I could hear the commentary very well from
>time to time, which I took to be in neutral sections.


The effect on Long Wave (or other AM radio) in an EMU is partly to do
with the wires - try listening to LW in a car and driving under a row
of high-voltage pylons.  The electrical interference from the
underbody equipment is also relevant.  ISTR that you have more luck
listening to AM radio in a D(M/H)MU that doesn't have the same level
of interference.

FM reception will probably be affected by the same factor as mobiles,
and yes, I do find it annoying as well.  A leaky feeder/rebroadcast
system like DB have on the ICEs would be worthy of investment. 

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

"Mike Roebuck"  wrote in message
news:rfivf15k34g0r286bhojroe2rngqjvcs6l@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:20:27 +0000 (UTC), "Chris Read"
>  wrote:
.....

> GNER don't provide a restaurant car at weekends (other than Inverness
> - Perth), but they do provide at seat service in 1st class.


They also provide at seat service for second class in some circumstances.
GNER - good, virgin - ungood. Only ever had one half way reasonable trip on
a virgin train and that was on the way down to Torquay once ... even then I
made most of the journey via FGW.

-- 

All the best,

Chris Wilson

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:28:59 +0100, Alan J. Flavell wrote:

> Last trip I had, someone a couple of rows away seemed entirely 
> incapable of drawing the obvious conclusion, and persisted in 
> repeatedly (and I *do* mean repeatedly) making business calls on their 
> mobile and making a complete fool of themselves, never managing to 
> keep the call up for more than a minute or two at a time, then 
> shouting HELLO HELLO ARE YOU THERE for a while into the unresponsive 
> phone (who knows what that was supposed to achieve), then dialling the 
> call again and wasting time trying to explain that they were "on the 
> train" until the call failed again - followed over and over by repeats 
> of the performance.
> 
> This just went on and on


Was it Dom Joly?
-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632979.html
(43 160 at Birmingham New Street, 10 Jun 1995)

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:28:59 +0100, "Alan J. Flavell"
 wrote:


>shouting HELLO HELLO ARE YOU THERE for a while into the unresponsive 
>phone (who knows what that was supposed to achieve)


Quite.  Perhaps it's from my first-aid training, where you're told to
give a possibly unconscious casualty a "command" to determine if they
can hear you or not, but if I'm in that kind of low-signal situation
and need to make the call, if it feels like it's going I'll tend to
say "If you can hear me say yes" or something like that.  Otherwise,
you don't get any feedback and the other person thinks you can't hear
them.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

allan tracy  wrote:


> >
> > I do like the smoothness of the ride on the Pendolino, which I take
> > frequently from Manchester to London. However, I am still very
> > dissatisfied with the mobile phone reception on their trains. I do quite
> > a lot of data work (gprs) on the train, and I find the service
> > practically useless. I won't even answer the phone on the train, as it
> > is too frustrating, so I normally sit in the quiet coach. I could
> > imagine being very annoyed if I'd subscribed to one of the 3g data
> > services and I was mostly travelling on Virgin trains.
> >
> 
> Funny, but I find the mobile phone reception works just how I like it.


Funny, but the Pendolinos have quite coaches that are rarely full, so
you're free to sit there- unlike many other trains without the same
reception problems, and with no quiet zones. 

-- 
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
pictures at http://homepage.mac.com/davidhornecomposer

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:03:09 +0100, "Chris Wilson"
 wrote:


>They also provide at seat service for second class in some circumstances.


So do VT.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

"Neil Williams"  wrote in message
news:43010c10.5182492@news.tesco.net...

> On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:03:09 +0100, "Chris Wilson"
>  wrote:
>
> >They also provide at seat service for second class in some circumstances.
>
> So do VT.


On a bendydildo? Paid an absolute fortune a while ago on an open return to
get from London to Manchester first thing in the morning ... seat booked on
the outward journey, no service, no free coffee, no "Bacon toastie sir?"
from a smartly uniformed polite steward (dedicated to the carriage as per
GNER), my reserved seat was in a carriage that was open to every Tom, Dick
and Harry who'd picked up a cheap ticket at the last minute making it loud
and crowded, no possibility of getting *any* work done, heck couldn't even
read a book, let alone look out of the window, when I did pluck up the
courage to navigate to the "shop" I was charged the earth for a half cup of
coffee in a plastic cup ... usual comments about no working toilets and the
all pervading smell of shit throughout the train.

Came back the long way via MM on a 125 with Mk3s ... very pleasant journey.

The few minutes I spent on one to Torquay wasn't to bad, not crowded, clean
and so forth oh and the ticket collector was very pretty and chatty (which
helped!), but no, given the choice I do not travel on Virgin.

-- 

All the best,

Chris Wilson

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:06:21 +0100, "Chris Wilson"
 wrote:


>On a bendydildo? 


Yes.  I've experienced it a number of times, including quite recently.
I can't remember what time of day, though.

Trolley service on West Coast has never been unknown, but it is often
a bit random.  I *have* encountered a situation where it was announced
that there was no at-seat in First, but that there would be a Standard
trolley (and there was) - I bet that annoyed the First Class pax...


>Paid an absolute fortune a while ago on an open return to
>get from London to Manchester first thing in the morning ... seat booked on
>the outward journey, no service, no free coffee, no "Bacon toastie sir?"
>from a smartly uniformed polite steward (dedicated to the carriage as per
>GNER)


Are we comparing Standard or First here? 


>, my reserved seat was in a carriage that was open to every Tom, Dick
>and Harry who'd picked up a cheap ticket at the last minute making it loud
>and crowded, 


It's most unlikely that "lots of cheap tickets" would be available on
a train where no SVRs were available.  There usually is the odd one,
but not a *lot*.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:02:10 GMT, Neil Williams wrote:


> The effect on Long Wave (or other AM radio) in an EMU is partly to do
> with the wires - try listening to LW in a car and driving under a row
> of high-voltage pylons.  The electrical interference from the
> underbody equipment is also relevant.  ISTR that you have more luck
> listening to AM radio in a D(M/H)MU that doesn't have the same level
> of interference.


True, I did. But interestingly, on 220/1, the control system seemed to
be generating interference while accelerating. 158/170/175 didn't give
me any problems at all. 

But **WARNING** don't do listen to R4LW on a 323. You will be deafened
when it starts moving.
-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p15036434.html
(66 241 at Winwick, 10 May 2005)

Chris Tolley  wrote:


>On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:28:59 +0100, Alan J. Flavell wrote:
>> Last trip I had, someone a couple of rows away seemed entirely 
>> incapable of drawing the obvious conclusion, and persisted in 
>> repeatedly (and I *do* mean repeatedly) making business calls on their 
>> mobile and making a complete fool of themselves, never managing to 
>> keep the call up for more than a minute or two at a time, then 
>> shouting HELLO HELLO ARE YOU THERE for a while into the unresponsive 
>> phone (who knows what that was supposed to achieve), then dialling the 
>> call again and wasting time trying to explain that they were "on the 
>> train" until the call failed again - followed over and over by repeats 
>> of the performance.
>> 
>> This just went on and on
>
>Was it Dom Joly?



LOL!  

Dom Joly's oversized cellphone ("I'M ON THE PHONE") reminds me of the
early Vodafone my employer issued me with in the mid-1980s.  It had a
handset which clipped onto the top of a huge and very heavy 12V
lead-acid battery - about the size of battery used in a large
motorcycle.

I didn't need to bellow into it, though.  It worked fine, except that
coverage was non-existent outside London.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:50:28 GMT, Chris Tolley 
wrote:


>True, I did. But interestingly, on 220/1, the control system seemed to
>be generating interference while accelerating. 158/170/175 didn't give
>me any problems at all. 


Probably not the control system  - it'll be the generator and/or
traction motors - 220/221 are DEMUs.

Neil
-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h
offy wrote:

> allan tracy  wrote:
>
> > > I won't even answer the phone on the train, as it
> > > is too frustrating, so I normally sit in the quiet coach. I could
> > > imagine being very annoyed if I'd subscribed to one of the 3g data
> > > services and I was mostly travelling on Virgin trains.
> > >
> >
> > Funny, but I find the mobile phone reception works just how I like it.
>
> Funny, but the Pendolinos have quite coaches that are rarely full, so
> you're free to sit there- unlike many other trains without the same
> reception problems, and with no quiet zones.
>
> David Horne


Having sat in the (anything but) quiet coaches I am all in favour of a
coach that physically restricts mobile reception.  Pity they don't zap
tinny headphones and bleep bleep gameboys as well.  Then again I have
seen the gripper arrive to find a very noisy female bellowing down her
phone, as she had done since boarding the train, only to witness him
being imperiously waved away until she had finished her conversation!
When he meekly returned he said nothing about the phone but at least
her ticket wasn't valid either.
George

furnessvale  wrote:

[]

> Having sat in the (anything but) quiet coaches I am all in favour of a
> coach that physically restricts mobile reception.  


On the virgin quiet coaches, I've found the passengers well behaved on
the whole. Also, as another poster mentioned, it can be more annoying
for other passengers when the reception is bad, as the caller raises
their voice etc.

-- 
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
pictures at http://homepage.mac.com/davidhornecomposer

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and...:


> On the virgin quiet coaches, I've found the passengers well behaved 
> on the whole.


"On the whole", maybe.  But it only takes one family with a couple of 
screaming sprogs to make the whole exercise pointless, no matter how 
well behaved the other passengers might be.  Up till now, making my 
own choice of coach without a reservation, I've found the non-"quiet" 
coaches consistently quieter than the "quiet" one.  You could argue 
this away as a statistical fluke, but it's been my experience, FWIW.

Alan J. Flavell  wrote:


> On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and...:
> 
> > On the virgin quiet coaches, I've found the passengers well behaved
> > on the whole.
> 
> "On the whole", maybe.  But it only takes one family with a couple of
> screaming sprogs to make the whole exercise pointless, no matter how 
> well behaved the other passengers might be.  


That's not always the family's fault though- i.e. some are booked into
seats there. Or, maybe it was the only coach with a table for 4 people
to sit around, etc. As a lot of my travel is during the week, it's
perhaps a problem I encounter less.

-- 
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
pictures at http://homepage.mac.com/davidhornecomposer

"Neil Williams"  wrote in message
news:43011205.6707504@news.tesco.net...

> On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:06:21 +0100, "Chris Wilson"
>  wrote:
>
> >On a bendydildo?
>
> Yes.  I've experienced it a number of times, including quite recently.
> I can't remember what time of day, though.
>
> Trolley service on West Coast has never been unknown, but it is often
> a bit random.


Trolley? No I'm talking about a chap (or lady) in a clean smart uniform
aproaching me at my seat, taking my order, having my order freshly prepared
hen served to me on real crockery.


> I *have* encountered a situation where it was announced
> that there was no at-seat in First, but that there would be a Standard
> trolley (and there was) - I bet that annoyed the First Class pax...
>
> >Paid an absolute fortune a while ago on an open return to
> >get from London to Manchester first thing in the morning ... seat booked
on
> >the outward journey, no service, no free coffee, no "Bacon toastie sir?"
> >from a smartly uniformed polite steward (dedicated to the carriage as per
> >GNER)
>
> Are we comparing Standard or First here?


Standard ... when I travel on GNER it tends to be on named trains, The
Yorkshire Pullman, The Flying Scotsman and so forth so there may be a
difference in service levels between those and GNERs non named services.
Certainly if I pay I full price open return (standard) I together with the
others who have forked out a months mortgage payment for the privilege are
seated in the carriage adjoining the catering carriage whereas folks who
have bought cheaper tickets are seated elsewhere. The staff being very good
at policing this arrangement.


> >, my reserved seat was in a carriage that was open to every Tom, Dick
> >and Harry who'd picked up a cheap ticket at the last minute making it
loud
> >and crowded,
>
> It's most unlikely that "lots of cheap tickets" would be available on
> a train where no SVRs were available.  There usually is the odd one,
> but not a *lot*.


Ah but as standard is so limited on the bendydildos it doesn't take all that
many extra passengers to crowd a carriage. Most unsuitable trains for long
distance routes.

-- 

All the best,

Chris Wilson

That's cwilson at britwar with a dot uk and dot co on the end. (Reply
address is blackholed)

http://www.the-dormouse.org

Neil Williams  wrote:

[]

> Trolley service on West Coast has never been unknown, but it is often
> a bit random.  


In a way, I'm surprised it''s offered in standard. On most of the
Pendolino services I've seen it on, there hasn't been much demand. Most
people either have bought something before boarding (I'm addicted to the
salt beef bagels at Euston!) or have gone to the onboard shop already. I
have noticed catering staff taking and delivering orders for people with
limited mobility (mostly older travellers) which seems a good compromise
when the trolley service isn't available.

-- 
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
pictures at http://homepage.mac.com/davidhornecomposer

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:04:02 +0100, this_address_is_for_spam@yahoo.com
(chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h
offy) wrote:


>That's not always the family's fault though- i.e. some are booked into
>seats there. Or, maybe it was the only coach with a table for 4 people
>to sit around, etc. As a lot of my travel is during the week, it's
>perhaps a problem I encounter less.


There needs to be a flag for it in the NRS.  Perhaps once GNER goes
no-smoking (they're the last, aren't they?) the smoking flag could be
re-used?

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:39:01 +0100, "Chris Wilson"
 wrote:


>Standard ... when I travel on GNER it tends to be on named trains, The
>Yorkshire Pullman, The Flying Scotsman and so forth so there may be a
>difference in service levels between those and GNERs non named services.
>Certainly if I pay I full price open return (standard) I together with the
>others who have forked out a months mortgage payment for the privilege are
>seated in the carriage adjoining the catering carriage whereas folks who
>have bought cheaper tickets are seated elsewhere. The staff being very good
>at policing this arrangement.


Ah, that's what BR used to call "Silver Standard".  I think GNER are
the only ones to be bothered about it - VT tried something similar
with their 3-class "Gold/Purple/Blue Zones", but it was an abject
failure.

As you state, the idea of it was basically to offer First Class
service in a Standard vehicle for those travelling off-peak on Open
tickets.  It's a bit pointless in the peak, as everyone is.

VT's version was a bit different in that, instead of providing First
Class service at a Standard seat, they allowed Standard pax to sit in
First Class but without the at-seat service.  The main controversy
wasn't this part, but that Virgin Value First tickets and the likes
were not true First Class, which wasn't always made clear.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:45:26 +0100, this_address_is_for_spam@yahoo.com
(chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h
offy) wrote:


>In a way, I'm surprised it''s offered in standard.


As am I, but I guess they already had the trolleys (they're not new)
and it might bring in an extra couple of quid over the spare staff
standing in the buffet having a chat.

That they only took it through Standard, and not a load of
complimentaries to First, is a bit cheeky if understandable from a
purely capitalist angle.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

"Neil Williams"  wrote

>
> There needs to be a flag for it in the NRS.  Perhaps once GNER goes
> no-smoking (they're the last, aren't they?) the smoking flag could be
> re-used?
>

AIUI smoking is also permitted in the lounge cars of the Scotrail sleepers.
I haven't seen an announcement that this is going to change, but it is
irrelevant for reservation purposes.

Peter

"Peter Masson"  wrote in message 
news:ddtfk8$g3g$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

>
> "Neil Williams"  wrote
>>
>> There needs to be a flag for it in the NRS.  Perhaps once GNER goes
>> no-smoking (they're the last, aren't they?) the smoking flag could be
>> re-used?
>>
> AIUI smoking is also permitted in the lounge cars of the Scotrail 
> sleepers.
> I haven't seen an announcement that this is going to change, but it is
> irrelevant for reservation purposes.


It will have to change once the Scottish Executive bans smoking in public 
places. My belief is that this is the real reason GNER have brought in their 
ban, though of course they claim it is due to customer pressure. IMHO that's 
just the usual GNER spin, otherwise (logically) they'd have banned smoking 
when the Mallard upgrades started, rather than just when they are about to 
finish.

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:43:04 +0000 (UTC), "Peter Masson"
 wrote:


>I haven't seen an announcement that this is going to change, 


It is.

http://www.firstgroup.com/scotrail/content/caledoniansleeper/index.php

"Please note that from 9 October 2005, a no-smoking policy operates on
all Caledonian Sleeper services (including Lounge Cars)."

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

> It will have to change once the Scottish Executive bans smoking in public
> places. My belief is that this is the real reason GNER have brought in
their
> ban, though of course they claim it is due to customer pressure. IMHO
that's
> just the usual GNER spin,


It is the real reason, and your right, it is the usual GNER spin.

otherwise (logically) they'd have banned smoking

> when the Mallard upgrades started, rather than just when they are about to
> finish.
>


If I remember correctly the existing Mallards will go for a deep clean once
the ban comes in. Also the plan is Coach B on the Mallards will become the
quiet coach.


-- 
http://europeanrailways.fotopic.net/
Any views or opinions expressed and presented are not those of the author
and do not represent those of his employers, they belong to the voices in
his head.

Neil Williams wrote:


> Ah, that's what BR used to call "Silver Standard".  I think GNER are
> the only ones to be bothered about it - VT tried something similar
> with their 3-class "Gold/Purple/Blue Zones", but it was an abject
> failure.


GNER "Standard Plus" was scrapped some time ago - early last year I *think*.

Philip.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:06:21 +0100, Chris Wilson  wrote:

>  "Neil Williams"  wrote in message
>  news:43010c10.5182492@news.tesco.net...
> > On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:03:09 +0100, "Chris Wilson"
> >  wrote:
> >
> > >They also provide at seat service for second class in some circumstances.
> >
> > So do VT.
> 
>  On a bendydildo? Paid an absolute fortune a while ago on an open return to
>  get from London to Manchester first thing in the morning ... seat booked on
>  the outward journey, no service, no free coffee, no "Bacon toastie sir?"
>  from a smartly uniformed polite steward (dedicated to the carriage as per
>  GNER), my reserved seat was in a carriage that was open to every Tom, Dick
>  and Harry who'd picked up a cheap ticket at the last minute making it loud
>  and crowded, no possibility of getting *any* work done, heck couldn't even
>  read a book, let alone look out of the window, when I did pluck up the
>  courage to navigate to the "shop" I was charged the earth for a half cup of
>  coffee in a plastic cup ... usual comments about no working toilets and the
>  all pervading smell of shit throughout the train.


How strange.  Every coffee on Virgin, I get charged 1.30, just the same as on
GNER.  Mind you, GNER's earth must be bigger and I wasn't wearing my "I don't
like your trains (I don't) and I'm a mug who paid four times as much as the
plebs around me SO TREAT ME LIKE I'M IMPORTANT DAMMIT" t-shirt.

Sadly, I suspected I've been well and truly 'professor'ed.

"Mark Hynes"  wrote in message
news:slrndgn0mq.1l8b.mmh@riffraff.plig.net...

> On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:06:21 +0100, Chris Wilson 
wrote:
> >  "Neil Williams"  wrote in message
> >  news:43010c10.5182492@news.tesco.net...
....

> How strange.  Every coffee on Virgin, I get charged 1.30, just the same as
on
> GNER.  Mind you, GNER's earth must be bigger and I wasn't wearing my "I
don't
> like your trains (I don't) and I'm a mug who paid four times as much as
the
> plebs


I have a good expense acount ;-)


> around me SO TREAT ME LIKE I'M IMPORTANT DAMMIT" t-shirt.


But don't we all feel like that, all the time?


> Sadly, I suspected I've been well and truly 'professor'ed.


Sorry I'm only an occasional visitor hereabouts, you'll have to explain that
one.

-- 

All the best,

Chris Wilson

That's cwilson at britwar with a dot uk and dot co on the end. (Reply
address is blackholed)

http://www.the-dormouse.org - The Dormouse Line Model Railway