http://www.sundayherald.com/51261

"The comparative study of 29 operators in 21 European countries found a 
first-class berth on the four-hour and 20-minute journey from London to 
Edinburgh is the most expensive seat of its kind in Europe. At 204 
(142), the GNER service costs almost double the nearest comparable 
journey  from Frankfurt to Munich  which costs 113 (79) on Deutsche 
Bahn, Germanys only national operator. A first-class ticket from Rome 
to Milan, a four-hour 30-minute trip, costs just 67.14 (47)...

"On the plus side, the survey praises the range of services available in 
Britain, such as on-board internet access, the ease of booking a ticket 
online and the way in which train operators market their routes."

> "The comparative study of 29 operators in 21 European countries found a
> first-class berth on the four-hour and 20-minute journey from London to
> Edinburgh is the most expensive seat of its kind in Europe.


Such tosh. Aside from the obvious (first class or not firstclass), and
ignoring quality of first class, London - Edinburgh's about 600km, so
34 cents per km


> At €204 (£142), the GNER service costs almost double the nearest
> comparable journey - from Frankfurt to Munich - which costs €113 (£79)


arround 370km, 30.5cents/km, yet takes 74% longer. I'd say GNER was the
better value.


>  A first-class ticket from Rome
> to Milan, a four-hour 30-minute trip, costs just €67.14 (£47)..


570km, so comparable to GNER, and only 11 centrs/km, however we all
know that italian rail is stupendiously subsidised (and I'd argue that
first class should not be subsidised at any rate).

Coule of notes on trenitalia's site
1) Ticketless booking, print out your email and the guard has the
information on the train to issue your ticket. Impressive, we could do
with that here (most stations don't have a ticket machine, let alone a
fast-ticket collection point)
2) A last-minute fare seemed to be available for €10 first class
Rome-Milan - €1 for youth or senior. Not sure abou the conditions,
but that seems pretty nice (of course if we had that in the UK you
wouldn't have many people buying full price tickets). Again, due to the
enourmous amount of money poured into the system by the taxpayer.

On 14 Aug 2005 19:42:16 -0700, "Paul Weaver" 
wrote:


>570km, so comparable to GNER, and only 11 centrs/km, however we all
>know that italian rail is stupendiously subsidised (and I'd argue that
>first class should not be subsidised at any rate).


Shouldn't it?  That's presumably why it is so offensively expensive in
this country.

I can see a case for the direct cost difference with Standard not
being subsidised, mind.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Paul Weaver  wrote:


>  Again, due to the
> enourmous amount of money poured into the system by the taxpayer.


Pardon me, but I seem to remember that UK's rail system is **very** far
from running only on customer's and inverstors money. I suspect that
through the number of different operators, regulators, authorities etc
etc... the UK taxpayer ends with pouring as many s out of his pocket
than I may be, or an Italian, or whoever European.


-- 
remplacez "lesptt" par "laposte" pour me joindre
substitute "laposte" to "lesptt" to reach me

Stanislas de Kertanguy wrote:

> Paul Weaver  wrote:
> 
> 
>> Again, due to the
>>enourmous amount of money poured into the system by the taxpayer.
> 
> 
> Pardon me, but I seem to remember that UK's rail system is **very** far
> from running only on customer's and inverstors money. I suspect that
> through the number of different operators, regulators, authorities etc
> etc... the UK taxpayer ends with pouring as many s out of his pocket
> than I may be, or an Italian, or whoever European.


Although the operator in question, GNER, does pay a subsidy back to the 
treasury, as well as paying its track access charges & other costs 
associated with running its trains.

Robin

R.C. Payne  wrote:


> Stanislas de Kertanguy wrote:
> > Paul Weaver  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >> Again, due to the
> >>enourmous amount of money poured into the system by the taxpayer.
> > 
> > 
> > Pardon me, but I seem to remember that UK's rail system is **very** far
> > from running only on customer's and inverstors money. I suspect that
> > through the number of different operators, regulators, authorities etc
> > etc... the UK taxpayer ends with pouring as many s out of his pocket
> > than I may be, or an Italian, or whoever European.
> 
> Although the operator in question, GNER, does pay a subsidy back to the
> treasury, as well as paying its track access charges & other costs 
> associated with running its trains.


Yes, but considering the system as a whole... GNER runs a backbone, but
not the whoe railway. I think a train system is a highly intergrated
industry, and sausaging it with the profitable branches and the others
seems a spurious way of counting the s...
-- 
remplacez "lesptt" par "laposte" pour me joindre
substitute "laposte" to "lesptt" to reach me

Paul Weaver  wrote in message
news:1124073736.281498.207390@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> "The comparative study of 29 operators in 21 European countries found a
> first-class berth on the four-hour and 20-minute journey from London to
> Edinburgh is the most expensive seat of its kind in Europe.


Such tosh. Aside from the obvious (first class or not firstclass), and
ignoring quality of first class, London - Edinburgh's about 600km, so
34 cents per km


> At ?204 (142), the GNER service costs almost double the nearest
> comparable journey - from Frankfurt to Munich - which costs ?113 (79)


arround 370km, 30.5cents/km, yet takes 74% longer. I'd say GNER was the
better value.


>  A first-class ticket from Rome
> to Milan, a four-hour 30-minute trip, costs just ?67.14 (47)..


570km, so comparable to GNER, and only 11 centrs/km, however we all
know that italian rail is stupendiously subsidised (and I'd argue that
first class should not be subsidised at any rate).

Coule of notes on trenitalia's site
1) Ticketless booking, print out your email and the guard has the
information on the train to issue your ticket. Impressive, we could do
with that here (most stations don't have a ticket machine, let alone a
fast-ticket collection point)
2) A last-minute fare seemed to be available for ?10 first class
Rome-Milan - ?1 for youth or senior. Not sure abou the conditions,
but that seems pretty nice (of course if we had that in the UK you
wouldn't have many people buying full price tickets). Again, due to the
enourmous amount of money poured into the system by the taxpayer.


It would be interesting to see these figures weighted by punctuality and the
probability of cacellation!

On 14 Aug 2005 19:42:16 -0700, "Paul Weaver" 
wrote:


>2) A last-minute fare seemed to be available for 10 first class
>Rome-Milan - 1 for youth or senior. Not sure abou the conditions,
>but that seems pretty nice (of course if we had that in the UK you
>wouldn't have many people buying full price tickets). Again, due to the
>enourmous amount of money poured into the system by the taxpayer.


Sadly IIRC that's a special offer which is  only valid on Ferragosto
(today!).

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:15:21 +0200, stanislas.dekertanguy@lesptt.net
(Stanislas de Kertanguy) wrote:


>
>Yes, but considering the system as a whole... GNER runs a backbone, but
>not the whoe railway. I think a train system is a highly intergrated
>industry, and sausaging it with the profitable branches and the others
>seems a spurious way of counting the s...


Apples and oranges. You can't consider the UK system as a single
coherent entity because it isn't. Irrespective of how mad that might
be...

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:15:30 +0100, "Tim Christian"
 wrote:


>Such tosh. Aside from the obvious (first class or not firstclass), and
>ignoring quality of first class, London - Edinburgh's about 600km, so
>34 cents per km


GNER's first class, certainly pre-Mallard, is dire.  Not as dire as
the Mk4 standard class, but still worse than most other stock, and
certainly worse than the Mk3.

That aside, I agree the comparisons don't make sense - the pricing
models are totally different.  Average fare actually paid per
passenger journey (or mile) might make more sense, but not just
comparing the two full priced fares.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

> Pardon me, but I seem to remember that UK's rail system is **very** far
> from running only on customer's and inverstors money.


True, but somewhere in the back of my mind I feel that the Itallian
railway gets a much larger subsidy, no figures though...

Cheeky wrote:


> Apples and oranges. You can't consider the UK system as a single
> coherent entity because it isn't. Irrespective of how mad that might
> be...


Shouldn't be an issue really. Although the newspaper article didn't mention
Switzerland, there you are talking about a fully integrated public railway
and public transport system run by umpteen different operators. The
ultimate jewel in the crown covering all public transport throughout the
entire country is the General Abonnement:

http://mct.sbb.ch/mct/en/reisemarkt/abonnemente/ga/general-abo-preise.htm

So basically operators can and do work together with integration and
customer flexibility in mind.

-- 
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:41:16 +0100, Phil Richards
 wrote:


>So basically operators can and do work together with integration and
>customer flexibility in mind.


Indeed.  The Verkehrsverbuende (hence the name - joint tariff
organisation is a reasonable translation) don't only contain one
operator of buses/trains/trams/U-bahn etc.  In Hamburg, for example,
there are all of the following making up a superbly co-ordinated and
organised network:-

S-Bahn (S-Bahn Hamburg GmbH, wholly-owned DB subsidiary)
Heavy rail (DB and a few private contractors)
U-bahn and some buses (Hamburger Hochbahn AG)
Buses (Verkehrsbetriebe Hamburg-Holstein AG)
More buses (Pinneberger Verkehrsgesellschaft mbH)
Yet more buses (Jasper-Reisen)
[I think there is another bus company I've missed with only a few
routes]

Now the network has enlarged somewhat outside the city of Hamburg,
there are no doubt rather more.  Some or all may be nationalised, but
they are separate companies regardless of this.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Neil Williams wrote:


> Indeed.  The Verkehrsverbuende (hence the name - joint tariff
> organisation is a reasonable translation) don't only contain one
> operator of buses/trains/trams/U-bahn etc.  In Hamburg, for example,
> there are all of the following making up a superbly co-ordinated and
> organised network:-
> 
> S-Bahn (S-Bahn Hamburg GmbH, wholly-owned DB subsidiary)
> Heavy rail (DB and a few private contractors)
> U-bahn and some buses (Hamburger Hochbahn AG)
> Buses (Verkehrsbetriebe Hamburg-Holstein AG)
> More buses (Pinneberger Verkehrsgesellschaft mbH)
> Yet more buses (Jasper-Reisen)
> [I think there is another bus company I've missed with only a few
> routes]


Quite so.  Many similarities with Munich, whose MVV was formed around 
the time of the Munich Olympics, modelled more or less on the HVV - 
but with some specific differences - and covered a large rural area 
centered on the Munich urban area.

Except where there was no real choice of operator (Munich City 
operated the U-Bahn, trams and city buses, DB-as-it-then-was for the 
S-Bahn), leaving the MVV more of a co-ordinating role, it was the MVV 
which laid down the (remaining) bus routes and timetables and put them 
out to competitive tender.  It was also the MVV which set the fares, 
and in whose name the tickets were sold.  And the published timetables 
were the composite timetables issued by the MVV twice a year, leaving 
the operators no leeway to keep chopping and changing them as the 
fancy took them.  The individual operators were *NOT PERMITTED* to 
sell their own operator-specific tickets tying a customer to their own 
services: the only available tickets were MVV tickets, fully 
inter-available within their zones of validity.

Neil Williams wrote:


> GNER's first class, certainly pre-Mallard, is dire.


Pardon?

GNER's First Class is quite frankly the best in the country. By far 
IMHO. It's also the best First Class service on any european train I've 
travelled on. The First Class Mallard coaches are a truely supurb 
environment and as for the pre-Mallard Mark 4s - there are only a couple 
of them left in service and even they will be gone very soon.

Philip.

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:40:08 +0100, Philip Hardy
 wrote:


>GNER's First Class is quite frankly the best in the country. By far 
>IMHO. It's also the best First Class service on any european train I've 
>travelled on. 


Surly staff don't help, but...


> The First Class Mallard coaches are a truely supurb 
>environment and as for the pre-Mallard Mark 4s - there are only a couple 
>of them left in service and even they will be gone very soon.


The pre-Mallard coaches are quite possibly the worst mainline "First
Class" I've ever had the misfortune to experience.  Not half as bad as
the awful Standard, though.

I blame GNER entirely for not refurbishing soon enough.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:40:08 +0100, Philip Hardy
 wrote:


>Neil Williams wrote:
>
>> GNER's first class, certainly pre-Mallard, is dire.
>
>Pardon?
>
>GNER's First Class is quite frankly the best in the country. By far 
>IMHO. It's also the best First Class service on any european train I've 
>travelled on. The First Class Mallard coaches are a truely supurb 
>environment and as for the pre-Mallard Mark 4s - there are only a couple 
>of them left in service and even they will be gone very soon.


Can't help but agree here. Even travelling in Weekend First on GNER, the
service is wonderful (no marks to the Train Manager on the service in
question, however, who was rather abrupt as he told us to move from
Coach H to Coach M on a service back from Leeds, despite the fact that
he'd neglected to mention that Weekend First is only in Coach M during
the overly long 'Welcome' announcement).

Compare and contrast with a journey on an ICE3 from Frankfurt Airport to
Nuernberg last month. Pootling through Germany at a top speed of 75mph
(yes, really), non-existent luggage space (I wasn't about to try getting
a suitcase up on the overhead rack!), and the only members of staff we
saw through the entire journey were two Ticket Inspectors (for want of a
better description), who both did a full check. Didn't get any freebies
either, unlike First Class on most of the InterCity TOCs in the UK...

So I can't say I'm particularly impressed with First Class on DB after
that...Also not particularly impressed by the 3 Reservation Fee per
seat, so our 105 SparPreis 50 becamed 117 (84.24)...

Cheers,

Barry

-- 
Barry Salter, barry at southie dot me dot uk
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