One of those silly niggling questions as my 5 year old son said he saw
a steam train on the dc lines as we drove near Cardiff Road in Watford.
He was getting mixed up with the Met line but got me thinking. The dc
lines were not electrified at first I seem to remember but engineering
trains must have been steam and goods trains to Rickmansworth until
closure would have been steam also.
So the last steam loco might have been right at the very end of steam
at Willesden Junc shed.

Kevin

kajr@mwfree.net wrote:

> One of those silly niggling questions as my 5 year old son said he saw
> a steam train on the dc lines as we drove near Cardiff Road in Watford.
> He was getting mixed up with the Met line but got me thinking. The dc
> lines were not electrified at first I seem to remember but engineering
> trains must have been steam and goods trains to Rickmansworth until
> closure would have been steam also.
> So the last steam loco might have been right at the very end of steam
> at Willesden Junc shed.


The 'New' lines were electric from he start, apart from the existing
Rickmansworth and Croxley branches.

You've raised an interesting point, though, as the lines were at one
time mostly equipped with trainstops at stop signals, so presumably
locos with tripcocks would be needed.  Midland division locos for the
Moorgate services were so fitted, but were there any tripcock locos on
the ex-LNW lines?

I don't think that the actual branches to Rickmansworth and Croxley
were signalled with trainstops, but a steam hauled train would have to
traverse such lines to get to the branches.

In the book 'Harrow to Watford' by Vic Mitchell and Keith Smith, there
are a few pictures of 41901 and 41909 on the Rickmansworth Line from
Watford, admittedly on special workings after the line had closed to
passengers. I've also seen somewhere a picture of what I think was a 4F
on an Engineers Train somewhere on the 'Croxley Triangle'.

Andy A.

Chippy wrote:

> kajr@mwfree.net wrote:
>> One of those silly niggling questions as my 5 year old son said he
>> saw a steam train on the dc lines as we drove near Cardiff Road in
>> Watford. He was getting mixed up with the Met line but got me
>> thinking. The dc lines were not electrified at first I seem to
>> remember but engineering trains must have been steam and goods
>> trains to Rickmansworth until closure would have been steam also.
>> So the last steam loco might have been right at the very end of steam
>> at Willesden Junc shed.
>
> The 'New' lines were electric from he start, apart from the existing
> Rickmansworth and Croxley branches.
>

<snip>

They were certainly planned as electric lines, but the first service trains
over them were steam.
The following quotes come from Peter G. Scott's book  "The London &
Birmingham Railway through Harrow  1837-1987" published by the London
Borough of Harrow.

The first section of the new line to be ready for traffic was that between
Willesden Junction and Harrow & Wealdstone. <There then follows a report of
the opening from the 3 June 1912 issue of The Daily Graphic>.
The steam service over the New Line to Harrow and Eealdstone  ran on
weekdays only with trains from Broad Street or Willesden Junction and some
irregular trips from Euston.
On 10th February 1913, the Harrow & Wealdstone - Watford Junction section of
the New Line was ready to receive its steam train service, provided by two
coach push and pull units.
It was not until 1913 that the LNWR was ready to place the contracts for the
electrification of the New Line and the rest of the North Western Electric
network.
The Great War inevitably delayed the electrification programme, but on 10th
May 1915 the Queens Park (West Kilburn) - Willesden Junction section of the
New Line was opened to traffic with a daily service of Bakerloo Line trains.
Electrification onwards from Willesden Junction to Watford Junction took
place on 16 April 1917.
On 19 July 1922, the full electric service commenced between Euston, Broad
Street and Watford Junction, and the steam train service over the New Line
was withdrawn.

<end of quotes>

Cheers for now,

John from Harrow, Middx

remove spamnocars to reply

In article <dE1Ke.975$CM.407@newsfe7-win.ntli.net>, John Shelley
 writes

>Chippy wrote:
>> kajr@mwfree.net wrote:
>>> One of those silly niggling questions as my 5 year old son said he
>>> saw a steam train on the dc lines as we drove near Cardiff Road in
>>> Watford. He was getting mixed up with the Met line but got me
>>> thinking. The dc lines were not electrified at first I seem to
>>> remember but engineering trains must have been steam and goods
>>> trains to Rickmansworth until closure would have been steam also.
>>> So the last steam loco might have been right at the very end of steam
>>> at Willesden Junc shed.


Ballast trains were usually work by a black five from Willesden, and I'm
fairly sure this continued more or less until Willesden closed to steam.
Occasionally a sulzer type 2 would appear instead from about 1962
onwards.

>>
>> The 'New' lines were electric from he start, apart from the existing
>> Rickmansworth and Croxley branches.
>>
><snip>
>
>They were certainly planned as electric lines, but the first service trains
>over them were steam.
>The following quotes come from Peter G. Scott's book  "The London &
>Birmingham Railway through Harrow  1837-1987" published by the London
>Borough of Harrow.
>
>The first section of the new line to be ready for traffic was that between
>Willesden Junction and Harrow & Wealdstone. <There then follows a report of
>the opening from the 3 June 1912 issue of The Daily Graphic>.
>The steam service over the New Line to Harrow and Eealdstone  ran on
>weekdays only with trains from Broad Street or Willesden Junction and some
>irregular trips from Euston.
>On 10th February 1913, the Harrow & Wealdstone - Watford Junction section of
>the New Line was ready to receive its steam train service, provided by two
>coach push and pull units.
>It was not until 1913 that the LNWR was ready to place the contracts for the
>electrification of the New Line and the rest of the North Western Electric
>network.
>The Great War inevitably delayed the electrification programme, but on 10th
>May 1915 the Queens Park (West Kilburn) - Willesden Junction section of the
>New Line was opened to traffic with a daily service of Bakerloo Line trains.
>Electrification onwards from Willesden Junction to Watford Junction took
>place on 16 April 1917.
>On 19 July 1922, the full electric service commenced between Euston, Broad
>Street and Watford Junction, and the steam train service over the New Line
>was withdrawn.


That's a bit misleading. In fact the line was fully electrified from
16th April 1919. The Bakerloo line operated right up to Watford from
July that year. Steam trains joined the main line at the north end of
Kensal Green Tunnel. What happened in 1922 was that the latter
connection was removed, when the new tunnels at Primrose hill were
completed, and steam passenger trains could no longer work from Euston.
A special train was run on 7th July 1922 to celebrate that fact. The
public changeover to all electric operation was on the 10th July.


>


-- 
Jim A

On 9 Aug 2005 01:40:11 -0700, "Chippy"  wrote:

<snip>

>The 'New' lines were electric from he start, apart from the existing
>Rickmansworth and Croxley branches.
>
>You've raised an interesting point, though, as the lines were at one
>time mostly equipped with trainstops at stop signals, so presumably
>locos with tripcocks would be needed.  Midland division locos for the
>Moorgate services were so fitted, but were there any tripcock locos on
>the ex-LNW lines?

AFAIR the DC line rule book merely required the cab to be
double-manned in the absence of trip equipment (whether due to failure
or non-provision) taking the forms of accompaniment by a pilotman when
working wrong line or the guard moving to the front of the train if a
failure occurred during normal running. A steam loco was naturally
double-manned so no problem there (the DC line not having the same
tunnel problems as the Widened Lines) but after the introduction of
OPO things got more complicated especially if the following train was
one of the LU nuisances.
<snip>
-- 
                                                             _______
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |\\   //|
 | Charles Ellson: charles@e11son.demon.co.uk        |      | \\ // |
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |  > <  |
                                                            | // \\ |
                                              Alba gu brath |//___\\|

Charles Ellson wrote:


> AFAIR the DC line rule book merely required the cab to be
> double-manned in the absence of trip equipment


Actually, I'd meant to post an update on thios.  Clive Feather has the
answer on his page at
http://www.davros.org/rail/signalling/lmsr/newlinerules.html where he
has the rules for the New Lines signalling.

It includes:

82. When it is necessary for a steam passenger train to travel over any
portion of the electrified line where colour light automatic signalling
is in operation, the speed of such trains must in no case exceed 25
MILES per hour. The speed of a freight or ballast train must not exceed
15 MILES per hour.

In article , 
Chippy wrote:


> Actually, I'd meant to post an update on thios.  Clive Feather has the
> answer on his page at
> http://www.davros.org/rail/signalling/lmsr/newlinerules.html where he
> has the rules for the New Lines signalling.
> 
> It includes:
> 
> 82. When it is necessary for a steam passenger train to travel over any
> portion of the electrified line where colour light automatic signalling
> is in operation, the speed of such trains must in no case exceed 25
> MILES per hour. The speed of a freight or ballast train must not exceed
> 15 MILES per hour.


AFAIK the same rule applied to LNER goods trains from Finsbury Park on 
what became the Northern Line extensions (some parts of which never had 
electric trains), and probably also on the Central Line north of Newbury 
Park.

--  

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford

Jock Mackirdy wrote:


> AFAIK the same rule applied to LNER goods trains from Finsbury Park on
> what became the Northern Line extensions (some parts of which never had
> electric trains), and probably also on the Central Line north of Newbury
> Park.


I find that surprising, as the LNER steam locos (and the diesels that
replaced them) were tripcock fitted.

In article , Chippy 
wrote:

> Jock Mackirdy wrote:
> 
> > AFAIK the same rule applied to LNER goods trains from Finsbury Park on
> > what became the Northern Line extensions (some parts of which never had
> > electric trains), and probably also on the Central Line north of Newbury
> > Park.
> 
> I find that surprising, as the LNER steam locos (and the diesels that
> replaced them) were tripcock fitted.


I bow to your superior knowledge (and reach for Rails Through The Clay, 
which probably says the same as you).

-- 

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford