Greetings

When I first travelled from Glasgow to London by train was in the very
late 1960s or very early 1970s.  I clearly remember that the train
(Diesel) went through Kilmarnock and Dumfries, rather than taking the
present route.

Does anyone knoif this was likely just a diversion, or was this ever
the regular route between Glasgow and Carlisle?

All the best,
Me

Unknown, Even to myself wrote:

> Greetings
>
> When I first travelled from Glasgow to London by train was in the very
> late 1960s or very early 1970s.  I clearly remember that the train
> (Diesel) went through Kilmarnock and Dumfries, rather than taking the
> present route.
>
> Does anyone knoif this was likely just a diversion, or was this ever
> the regular route between Glasgow and Carlisle?
>
> All the best,
> Me


This sounds like the "Midland Route (?)"
(Glasgow-Kilmarnock-Carlisle-Leeds-London St Pancras), although this
was latterly shortened to Glasgow - Nottingham, I seem to remember.
However, there were also occasional diversions via Kilmarnock while
there was engineering work on the WCML.

BrianN

Unknown, Even to myself wrote:

> Greetings
>
> When I first travelled from Glasgow to London by train was in the very
> late 1960s or very early 1970s.  I clearly remember that the train
> (Diesel) went through Kilmarnock and Dumfries, rather than taking the
> present route.
>
> Does anyone knoif this was likely just a diversion, or was this ever
> the regular route between Glasgow and Carlisle?
>
> All the best,
> Me


This sounds like the "Midland Route (?)"
(Glasgow-Kilmarnock-Carlisle-Leeds-London St Pancras), although this
was latterly shortened to Glasgow - Nottingham, I seem to remember.
However, there were also occasional diversions via Kilmarnock while
there was engineering work on the WCML.

BrianN

"Unknown, Even to myself"  wrote in message 
news:pan.2005.08.08.23.16.44.821317@inowhere.x.com...

> Greetings
>
> When I first travelled from Glasgow to London by train was in the very
> late 1960s or very early 1970s.  I clearly remember that the train
> (Diesel) went through Kilmarnock and Dumfries, rather than taking the
> present route.
>
> Does anyone knoif this was likely just a diversion, or was this ever
> the regular route between Glasgow and Carlisle?
>
> All the best,
> Me
>


If it was on a Sunday, then it was probably a diversion. Around the 1970's I 
returned from Glasgow to Bolton via the same route which then followed the 
S&C changing at Blackburn.

KW

As well as the occasional diversions via Kilmarnock, there were also one or
two Glasgow  to Euston services which went this way. There was a regular
sleeper which operated for many years plus a Class 50 worked day time
service in the 1970s probably following the withdrawal of the through
service to St Pancras.

In the early 1960s there was a summer Saturday Glasgow Central to Euston
relief which was scheduled to come this way because of capacity problems on
the line through Lockerbie. This was the highlight of the day for the
Dumfries spotters of which I was one. It was a heavy train, about 16 coaches
of which 8 were the  stock of the Monday to Friday "Caledonian" and carried
the name and destination boards on these carriages. Until the Class 40s
started to appear on this train the loco was invariably a Coronation class
pacific.

The loco was usually from Crewe North, but there were also appearances from
Camden, Carlisle Upperby, and Edge Hill locos. Strangely, I don't ever
remember seeing a Polmadie loco on this train - it was always used to return
locos to the south.

I hope this is of some interest - I realise that it is a very long time ago.

Roy.
..
 wrote in message
news:1123553356.903840.231270@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> Unknown, Even to myself wrote:
> > Greetings
> >
> > When I first travelled from Glasgow to London by train was in the very
> > late 1960s or very early 1970s.  I clearly remember that the train
> > (Diesel) went through Kilmarnock and Dumfries, rather than taking the
> > present route.
> >
> > Does anyone knoif this was likely just a diversion, or was this ever
> > the regular route between Glasgow and Carlisle?
> >
> > All the best,
> > Me
>
> This sounds like the "Midland Route (?)"
> (Glasgow-Kilmarnock-Carlisle-Leeds-London St Pancras), although this
> was latterly shortened to Glasgow - Nottingham, I seem to remember.
> However, there were also occasional diversions via Kilmarnock while
> there was engineering work on the WCML.
>
> BrianN
>

"Jubilee"  wrote in message
news:d_YJe.85159$G8.81274@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> As well as the occasional diversions via Kilmarnock, there were also one
> or
> two Glasgow  to Euston services which went this way. There was a regular
> sleeper which operated for many years plus a Class 50 worked day time
> service in the 1970s probably following the withdrawal of the through
> service to St Pancras.
>
> In the early 1960s there was a summer Saturday Glasgow Central to Euston
> relief which was scheduled to come this way because of capacity problems
> on
> the line through Lockerbie. This was the highlight of the day for the
> Dumfries spotters of which I was one. It was a heavy train, about 16
> coaches
> of which 8 were the  stock of the Monday to Friday "Caledonian" and
> carried
> the name and destination boards on these carriages. Until the Class 40s
> started to appear on this train the loco was invariably a Coronation class
> pacific.
>
> The loco was usually from Crewe North, but there were also appearances
> from
> Camden, Carlisle Upperby, and Edge Hill locos. Strangely, I don't ever
> remember seeing a Polmadie loco on this train - it was always used to
> return
> locos to the south.
>
> I hope this is of some interest - I realise that it is a very long time
> ago.
>


Yes it is of interest Roy,
        From the days when Boat trains used to "turn Left" at Carlisle...

and

Kingmoor was full of "Britannias"............Magic!

KW.

The GSWR route was used extensively as a diversionary route during the
West Coast Main Line electrification, so that's the most likely answer
to your question, but it was the booked route for a few through trains
for quite a long time afterwards, notably 2 of the 3 daily Nottingham -
Glasgow trains from 1977-82 (after which they were diverted away from
the Settle & Carlisle line to run via Manchester & Preston), the Euston
- Stranraer daytime & sleeper trains (the last through trains to
survive) and a single Glasgow - Euston train each way (which I believe
lasted until the late 1980s).  The latter two services always swapped
electric for diesel (and vice versa) at Carlisle.  Nowadays I'm not
sure whether the Pendelinos are cleared for dragging via Kilmarnock or
not, so the likelyhood of loco haulage on the route is pretty low....

"Unknown, Even to myself"  wrote in message
news:pan.2005.08.08.23.16.44.821317@inowhere.x.com...

> Greetings
>
> When I first travelled from Glasgow to London by train was in the very
> late 1960s or very early 1970s.  I clearly remember that the train
> (Diesel) went through Kilmarnock and Dumfries, rather than taking the
> present route.
>
> Does anyone knoif this was likely just a diversion, or was this ever
> the regular route between Glasgow and Carlisle?
>

As others have pointed out, there was a day and a night train to and from
Euston by that route in that period. This even continued for a time after
electrification, when a 07xx Glasgow - Euston ran via Dumfries and changed
engines at Carlisle, with a return working at, IIRC, 1545 from Euston.

While the Beattock route was being electrified it was closed for much of the
daylight hours, with all trains diverted via Dumfries - the Midland Scot ran
complete to Glasgow via Dumfries, with the Edinburgh portion being detached
at Glasgow Central. During this period there were trains timed at 110
minutes Glasgow - Carlisle via Dumfries, booked for double-heading with two
Class 50s.

Peter

> When I first travelled from Glasgow to London by train was in the very
> late 1960s or very early 1970s.  I clearly remember that the train
> (Diesel) went through Kilmarnock and Dumfries, rather than taking the
> present route.
>
> Does anyone knoif this was likely just a diversion, or was this ever
> the regular route between Glasgow and Carlisle?


On my my community website I have photo's taken during the 60's & 70's at 
Stewarton (situated between Kilmarnock & Barrhead on the GSWR),

London bound Class 45 or 46 on the Thames Clyde express.
http://tinyurl.com/dkacr

Glasgow Central bound Class 40
http://tinyurl.com/9lxe6

all from
http://www.stewarton.org/railway.htm

regards
Mark

I think this clearly shows how the utility of the railways has been
destroyed in the last thirty years or so.

I know the East Coast / Midland & GSW / West Coast could be regarded as
duplication, but in fact they were nothing of the sort.

How do you do Nottingham to Kilmarnock in any sort of comfort - let
alone through coaches now? or Leicester to Carlisle - or even
Manchester to Plymouth (northbound at least)

The insular "its efficient for the railways so it must be good - bloody
hell where have all the passengers gone???" mentality is well and truly
in control these days and that is why so many of us drive. We would
like the choice - but except for direct London trains there often isn't
much option.

GMac wrote:

> Nowadays I'm not sure whether the Pendelinos are cleared for dragging
> via Kilmarnock or not, so the likelyhood of loco haulage on the route
> is pretty low....


There was Class 390 regauging work going on in Glasgow a couple of
Sundays ago, which meant East Kilbride and Kilmarnock services were
diverted via Polmadie and the Larkfield Curve while work went on
at the Nithsdale Road bridge, and the local paper last week had a
Council notice of waiting restrictions over the next 18 months related
to the rebuild of the road bridge at Crossmyloof.

(I think all that means "if they're not they *will* be".)
-- 
Paul Robertson (class303fan@zzzbtopenworld.com)
Glasgow (remove zzz from above to reply)

On 9 Aug 2005 08:21:15 -0700, frankie@t-bird.freeserve.co.uk wrote in
, seen in
uk.railway:

[...]

> How do you do Nottingham to Kilmarnock in any sort of comfort - let
> alone through coaches now? or Leicester to Carlisle - or even
> Manchester to Plymouth (northbound at least)


Why is it that people on this group assume that just because *they*
dislike current stock, everyone else automatically does too?

Me, I'm quite happy to do 170 Nottingham - Manchester P, 175
Manchester P - Preston, Pendothingy  Preston - Carlisle and whatever
turns up thence. 
And, judging by the number of people I see using trains during my
travels, so are a heck of a lot of other people.

Mind you, it appears the views of the majority of passengers are
utterly worthless as far as some of the loudest posters here are
concerned. 

-- 
Ross, Lincoln, UK

We're *not* afraid
http://www.werenotafraid.com

frankie@t-bird.freeserve.co.uk wrote:


> How do you do Nottingham to Kilmarnock in any sort of comfort - let
> alone through coaches now? or Leicester to Carlisle - or even
> Manchester to Plymouth (northbound at least)


What would you estimate was the average number of passengers wanting to
travel from Nottingham to Kilmarnock?  Or Leicester to Carlisle?

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 00:16:44 +0100, Unknown, Even to myself wrote:


> Greetings
> 
> When I first travelled from Glasgow to London by train was in the very
> late 1960s or very early 1970s.  I clearly remember that the train
> (Diesel) went through Kilmarnock and Dumfries, rather than taking the
> present route.
> 
> Does anyone knoif this was likely just a diversion, or was this ever
> the regular route between Glasgow and Carlisle?
> 
> All the best,
> Me

Thanks for all the answers.

I think I might just have hit upon some unusual trains several times.  But
in the late 1970s to mid 1980s, I often travelled South of a Sunday.

Once, I can remember was a sleeper, and I am fairly sure I also did a
Sunday.

I also did a few journeys around the time of electrification (I remember
the cardboard cut-out 87s that were stored below Glasgow Central before
being brought out to publicise electification.

Much later, I also went part round the Cathcart Circle on the way to
London, certainly through Maxwell Park and probably Pollockshaws East, but
I cannot remember more.  What could have been going on?

Me

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:02:26 +0100, Unknown, Even to myself wrote:


>> Me
> Thanks for all the answers.

Sorry, missed something.

The journeys I had in mind were all from Central to Euston, not St.
Pancras.

Me

"Unknown, Even to myself"  wrote >

> Much later, I also went part round the Cathcart Circle on the way to
> London, certainly through Maxwell Park and probably Pollockshaws East, but
> I cannot remember more.  What could have been going on?
>

WCML blocked between Glasgow Central and Newton - this would be the obvious
diversion.

AIUI there have also been cases, presumably because of a block between
Newton and Uddingston, when WCML trains have gone round the Hamilton Circle,
through Motherwell the wrong way, and then through Holytown and Wishaw to
rejoin the WCML at Law Junction.

Peter

My point, Ross, was not that there used to be Nottingham to Kilmarnock
trains -but that there were St Pancras to Glasgow trains etc with main
line train facilities on routes additional to the present skeletal
fastest lines.

These also called at many locations enroute so that the convoluted
change here change there requirement of the same journey today simply
was not necessary and the maximisation of journey opportunities was
available with the minimum of inconvenience for the passenger.

Even last year it was a joy to have MkIIIs between St Pancras and
Piccadilly - and a decent service between Stockport and Leicester as a
result. I know this was an SRA aberration, but it was a service that
was just beginning to show that there is a need for such true cross
country travel in decent stock when it was snatched back again.

I think that despite their poor technical performance that it has been
established that so far as public consumption is concerned the Coradia
spec is what long distance underfloor trains should be about.

Wouldn't one of those going Glasgow Central - Dumfries - Leeds -
Sheffield and Midland Main Line meet various long distance and regional
travel needs in comfort and at speed - where permiited - along its
route - except that the current franchising system gives no incentive
for anyone to think of growing markets in this industry. A 156 from
Central to Newcastle just doesn't cut into that type of marketing and
is really route rationalisation wearing another hat.

On 10 Aug 2005 03:57:25 -0700, frankie@t-bird.freeserve.co.uk wrote in
, seen in
uk.railway:


> My point, Ross, was 


....that you dislike the trains and services currently provided, and
that they are therefore automatically rubbish not just for you but for
everyone. 

The fact is that whilst you may not like the trains as provided, and I
may not like the trains as provided, plenty of other people find them
perfectly acceptable, so to say 

>How do you do Nottingham to Kilmarnock in any sort of comfort" 

is suggesting that the people who do consider the services comfortable
- and there are plenty of them to judge by the loadings -  have
something wrong with them.


The point I was making is that there are plenty of people here who
think that only they are the arbiters of world opinion, and that
anyone who disagrees is talking out of their arsehole - and those
people are wrong. 

-- 
Ross, Lincoln, UK

We're *not* afraid
http://www.werenotafraid.com