Both have a population of around 0.25 million yet the West Midlands RUS
proposes closure of the service.

The reasons seems to have little to do with viability but the need to
save units for elsewhere.

The last time I checked, Wellington - Walsall (off-peak) was a two
diagram service provided for by two single class 153s.

Are we really to believe that the saving of one class 153 diagram is
going to make the difference for congested services elsewhere? Meeting
for their demand all comes down to one dogbox? Seats for all or
crowding in the corridors unless we save that one diagram. What a train
this must be.

OK assuming super dogbox has other work to do such as substituting for
a Brum - Coventry local when the previous service had been cancelled
(happened last year, see Guiness book of Records), why can't the
existing Walsall - Birmingham trains just extend to Wolverhampton?
After all, the whole route is electrified.

This would also provide for new journey opportunities from North B'ham
to Wolverhampton.

Providing a bustitution is not without cost and what are the real
savings of ending this service? How many stations will close (0)? How
much track can be closed down (0)? Maybe one crew diagram and is that
really more expensive than hiring a bus in?

Or, more likely, this is just the thin end of the wedge.

allan tracy  wrote:


> Both have a population of around 0.25 million yet the West Midlands RUS
> proposes closure of the service.


It was reported in the Birmingahm Post last week that the various
Councils/transport bodies are trying to overturn the closure of this
service.They have around a year before the service is due to end, so
there may be hope yet.
Alan.


-- 
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.
http://www.dvatc.co.uk - Off-road cycling in the North Midlands.

>
> It was reported in the Birmingahm Post last week that the various
> Councils/transport bodies are trying to overturn the closure of this
> service.They have around a year before the service is due to end, so
> there may be hope yet.


This is good news.

I suspect this service was chosen for bustitution because it could then
be used as a benchmark to justify more of the same thing between (many)
other smaller places.

Also, like most reopenings nowadays, the service was probably
introduced under the Serpell ammendment. This means the closure will
not be subject to a formal public enquiry.

I could imagine an enquiry now. It would be hard to show hardship from
closure due to the lack of passengers, but at least the SRA and the TOC
would have to admit they failed to market and sell a train service
between two centres of 0.25 million population, less than eight miles
apart and when the competing bus service takes four times as long.

It's a bit like falling in a vat of beer and failing to get p****d.

As I said in another post, the SRA dont have an effing clue as to what
to to and what not to do.

Better call Trinny & Susanah!

In article ,
   allan tracy  wrote:

> > It was reported in the Birmingahm Post last week that the various
> > Councils/transport bodies are trying to overturn the closure of this
> > service.They have around a year before the service is due to end, so
> > there may be hope yet.

> This is good news.

> I suspect this service was chosen for bustitution because it could then
> be used as a benchmark to justify more of the same thing between (many)
> other smaller places.


I'm sure that it was chosen for closure because nobody used it. I think
that there were four other people when I travelled on it - and I wasn't
paying.


> Also, like most reopenings nowadays, the service was probably
> introduced under the Serpell ammendment. This means the closure will
> not be subject to a formal public enquiry.

> I could imagine an enquiry now. It would be hard to show hardship from
> closure due to the lack of passengers, but at least the SRA and the TOC
> would have to admit they failed to market and sell a train service
> between two centres of 0.25 million population, less than eight miles
> apart and when the competing bus service takes four times as long.


But the other bus services are very much more frequent, and serve other
places en route. There are, probably, very few people wanting to go from
Wolverhampton station to Walsall station with a service that would never be
more frequent than once an hour.

-- 
David Wild using RISC OS on broadband

On 7 Aug 2005 12:31:02 -0700, allan tracy wrote:


> the SRA and the TOC would have to admit they failed to market and sell
> a train service between two centres of 0.25 million population, less
> than eight miles apart and when the competing bus service takes four
> times as long.


I think these days, people are looking much more for "turn up and go"
services than for "wait for a while, even though you'll be at your
destination sooner". This service would be much easier to sell if it
were every 20 or 30 minutes, rather than every 60.

-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632825.html
(33 010 at London Waterloo, 14 Mar 1981)

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 23:55:24 GMT, Chris Tolley 
wrote:


>I think these days, people are looking much more for "turn up and go"
>services than for "wait for a while, even though you'll be at your
>destination sooner". This service would be much easier to sell if it
>were every 20 or 30 minutes, rather than every 60.


Agreed.  Given an assumption (that isn't always, but is often,
correct) that people will need to travel at arbitrary times that won't
always fit the timetable, this means that an hourly service taking 20
minutes can effectively take between 20 and 79 minutes, while a
10-minute frequency taking 40 minutes can take between 40 and 50
minutes, a slightly more acceptable average to many.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

allan tracy wrote:

> >
> > It was reported in the Birmingahm Post last week that the various
> > Councils/transport bodies are trying to overturn the closure of this
> > service.They have around a year before the service is due to end, so
> > there may be hope yet.
>
>


"Also, like most reopenings nowadays, the service was probably
introduced under the Serpell ammendment. This means the closure will
 not be subject to a formal public enquiry."

The _Speller_ Amendment , I think.

Andy Kirkham

> Providing a bustitution is not without cost and what are the real
> savings of ending this service? How many stations will close (0)? How
> much track can be closed down (0)? Maybe one crew diagram and is that
> really more expensive than hiring a bus in?
>
> Or, more likely, this is just the thin end of the wedge.


Looking today at NRES, the following news item appears:--

Engineering work will take place between Wolverhampton and Walsall on Sunday 
14 August 2005--Due to engineering work services from Wolverhampton to 
Walsall will not run, customers are advised to travel on TWM 529 bus 
services.

So now we have a cancelled bustitution service, because rail works are 
planned...Uhhhhhhh!!!!

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 12:07:42 GMT, turbo wrote in
<iWHJe.84600$G8.38375@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, seen in uk.railway:

> 
> Looking today at NRES, the following news item appears:--
> 
> Engineering work will take place between Wolverhampton and Walsall on Sunday 
> 14 August 2005--Due to engineering work services from Wolverhampton to 
> Walsall will not run, customers are advised to travel on TWM 529 bus 
> services.
> 
> So now we have a cancelled bustitution service, because rail works are 
> planned...Uhhhhhhh!!!! 


Do we? Where do we have a cancelled bustitution, then? 

Clue: the Walsall - Wolves is still a train until the end of the
current timetable. 

And it'll still only carry three twirlies and a dog on each trip,
regardless of all the hot air being spouted about how important a link
it is.

-- 
Ross, Lincoln, UK

We're *not* afraid
http://www.werenotafraid.com

>>
>> Looking today at NRES, the following news item appears:--
>>
>> Engineering work will take place between Wolverhampton and Walsall on 
>> Sunday
>> 14 August 2005--Due to engineering work services from Wolverhampton to
>> Walsall will not run, customers are advised to travel on TWM 529 bus
>> services.
>>
>> So now we have a cancelled bustitution service, because rail works are
>> planned...Uhhhhhhh!!!!
>
> Do we? Where do we have a cancelled bustitution, then?
>
> Clue: the Walsall - Wolves is still a train until the end of the
> current timetable.
>
> And it'll still only carry three twirlies and a dog on each trip,
> regardless of all the hot air being spouted about how important a link
> it is.
>
>

As far as I am aware the Walsall - Wolverhampton ( direct , ie not via 
Birmingham) is a bustitution and has been for some time. Now it looks like 
railworks means the  railservicebustitution bus is also Caped on those days, 
and passengers are directed to TWM Travel West Midlands 529 service.
I regularly try this service , last friday was the last time, but having 
found yet again it was catch a coach on the forecourt, I didn't bother and 
went by rail via Birmingham. Its some years since wolves -walsall was a 
dogbox even...
as to how important a link it is, the question of reliability, and timings . 
Even Wolves-Euston would fade into insignificance it it got cancelled, 
coachstituted, or never ran every day for a year.

> Clue: the Walsall - Wolves is still a train until the end of the
> current timetable.


True. But if you know the A454 at all you will know the bustitute will
be anything but the "express" promised.


> And it'll still only carry three twirlies and a dog on each trip,
> regardless of all the hot air being spouted about how important a link
> it is.


However if appropriate intermediate stops had been created and CT done
the marketing a bit more aggressively thing may well have been
different.

Even today much of the railway industry continues with the mindset that
it is alway easier to pull a service than develop an underutilised one.

Are you sure you use this service regularly including last Friday?

It was definately a train on friday, and has been on Monday to Fridays
since the timetable change in June.

Strange thing was when it was bustituted M-Sat from January to June it
was still a train on Sundays and as can be seen from this poster dated
March

http://tonyhunter2814.fotopic.net/p12625420.html

the "catch the 529 when we do engineering works" has been going on for
months.

All services on the Walsall Line including the Wolverhampton seem to
have been very reliable of late which is a remarkable turnaround from
the last 12 months

Tony
<annual season ticket holder for this line>

On 8 Aug 2005 07:00:17 -0700, 1501 wrote in
, seen in
uk.railway:

[....]

> > And it'll still only carry three twirlies and a dog on each trip,
> > regardless of all the hot air being spouted about how important a link
> > it is.
> 
> However if appropriate intermediate stops had been created 


Oh, come off it. This is 21st century Britain, not a country which
gives a damn about providing a service.

The days of speculative reopenings have long gone, for all we wish it
was otherwise.



> and CT done the marketing a bit more aggressively thing may 
> well have been different.


How the heck do you market a once-hourly service which is paralleled
by buses running every few minutes, buses which also happen to
directly serve far more useful places than the railway could ever hope
to on that route?

Frankly, you can't.

 

> Even today much of the railway industry continues with the mindset that
> it is alway easier to pull a service than develop an underutilised one.


In this case they're simply being realistic, as most people are
sensible enough to realise.

-- 
Ross, Lincoln, UK

We're *not* afraid
http://www.werenotafraid.com

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 13:58:10 GMT, turbo wrote in
<SxJJe.84649$G8.83689@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, seen in uk.railway:

[...]

> >> So now we have a cancelled bustitution service, because rail works are
> >> planned...Uhhhhhhh!!!!
> >
> > Do we? Where do we have a cancelled bustitution, then?
> >
> > Clue: the Walsall - Wolves is still a train until the end of the
> > current timetable.
> >
> > And it'll still only carry three twirlies and a dog on each trip,
> > regardless of all the hot air being spouted about how important a link
> > it is.
> >
> As far as I am aware the Walsall - Wolverhampton ( direct , ie not via 
> Birmingham) is a bustitution and has been for some time. 


As Tony from Hednesford has pointed out, your awareness is wrong.



> Now it looks like 
> railworks means the  railservicebustitution bus is also Caped on those days, 


Only to you, it seems.



> I regularly try this service , last friday was the last time, but having 
> found yet again it was catch a coach on the forecourt, 


I'm too far away to argue that specific journey; Tony feels otherwise.
Are you sure that it wasn't only one journey cancelled, rather than
the entire service that day?



> as to how important a link it is, the question of reliability, and timings . 
> Even Wolves-Euston would fade into insignificance it it got cancelled, 
> coachstituted, or never ran every day for a year.


There's a wee difference between Wolves - Walsall and Wolves - Euston:
as well you know, there's no entrenched, viable and much more frequent
public transport alternative between Wolves and Euston. 

There very definitely is such an alternative between Wolves & Walsall,
and that alternative is *used* - which is why Wolves - Walsall became
a viable option for bustitution in the first place: so few people
actually used it from its re-introduction in '97 that it was a viable
service to withdraw, far more so than the Trent Valley locals, the
Stoke - Stafford shuttle and the Nuneaton - Coventry workings which
were also bustituted at the same time.

-- 
Ross, Lincoln, UK

We're *not* afraid
http://www.werenotafraid.com

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 13:58:10 GMT, turbo wrote:


> As far as I am aware the Walsall - Wolverhampton ( direct , ie not via 
> Birmingham) is a bustitution and has been for some time.


I was on it today. 150 019 (with a middle coach whose engine kept
cutting out).

The service runs from Wellington to Walsall, and uses 2 units. the other
one today was one of the ex-Anglia 150/2's.

There were about a dozen people on it.
-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p10589964.html
(47 803 at Rowsley, 17 Jun 2004)

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 23:01:41 GMT, Chris Tolley wrote:

> On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 13:58:10 GMT, turbo wrote:
>> As far as I am aware the Walsall - Wolverhampton ( direct , ie not via 
>> Birmingham) is a bustitution and has been for some time.

> I was on it today. 150 019 (with a middle coach whose engine kept
> cutting out). The service runs from Wellington to Walsall, and uses 2
> units. the other one today was one of the ex-Anglia 150/2's. There
> were about a dozen people on it.


I intended to add first time, but forgot: one of the reasons that the
train runs lightly loaded to Walsall must be the announcement that is
made as it arrives at Wolverhampton from the West: "Would passengers for
all destinations other than Walsall please change at Wolverhampton."
-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9633048.html
(47 725 at London Kings Cross, 29 May 1999)

> > However if appropriate intermediate stops had been created
>
> Oh, come off it. This is 21st century Britain, not a country which
> gives a damn about providing a service.


Other stations have been created within the West Midlands conurbation.
NR or it predecessor presumably using local authority funding.

>
> The days of speculative reopenings have long gone, for all we wish it
> was otherwise.
>
> > and CT done the marketing a bit more aggressively thing may
> > well have been different.
>
> How the heck do you market a once-hourly service which is paralleled
> by buses running every few minutes, buses which also happen to
> directly serve far more useful places than the railway could ever hope
> to on that route?
>
> Frankly, you can't.
>

We must agree to disagree. Accepted the infrequency left a lot to be
desired but the journey time beats the pants off the 529. Have you even
driven the A454 betwixt W-ton & Walsall at peak times. Fun. . . NOT!

>
> > Even today much of the railway industry continues with the mindset that
> > it is alway easier to pull a service than develop an underutilised one.
>
> In this case they're simply being realistic, as most people are
> sensible enough to realise.


Pray tell me what CT did to truely advertise this service. When it was
introduced between Wellington and Walsall very little advertising
appeared on Shropshire stations or in Shropshire papers to
announce/promote the service.

On 10 Aug 2005 04:07:51 -0700, 1501 wrote in
, seen in
uk.railway:


> > > However if appropriate intermediate stops had been created
> >
> > Oh, come off it. This is 21st century Britain, not a country which
> > gives a damn about providing a service.
> 
> Other stations have been created within the West Midlands conurbation.
> NR or it predecessor presumably using local authority funding.


Not since privatisation they haven't, with the sole exception of
Rugeley Town which was itself a *heavily* delayed pre-privatisation
proposal.

There have been no post-privatisation re-openings in the West Midlands
conurbation; indeed the privatisation era in the area has actually
been notable for the number of rail proposals being dropped.

The Walsall - Wolverhampton service was a post-privatisation
introduction and gets to live under the post-privatisation "policies".
Which in turn means opening intermediate stations is a RossRail
proposal: dreamworld.

Like I say:

> > The days of speculative reopenings have long gone, for all we wish it
> > was otherwise.


> > > and CT done the marketing a bit more aggressively thing may
> > > well have been different.
> >
> > How the heck do you market a once-hourly service which is paralleled
> > by buses running every few minutes, buses which also happen to
> > directly serve far more useful places than the railway could ever hope
> > to on that route?
> >
> > Frankly, you can't.
> >
> We must agree to disagree. Accepted the infrequency left a lot to be
> desired but the journey time beats the pants off the 529. Have you even
> driven the A454 betwixt W-ton & Walsall at peak times. Fun. . . NOT!


I've travelled the 529 between Walsall and Wolves in peak time as well
as off-peak. Frankly I doubt that even with intermediate stations an
hourly frequency could ever have produced a viable service. 

Every 20 minutes or better, with intermediate stops, yes, I agree that
would possibly be viable - but that was *never* going to happen. 



> > > Even today much of the railway industry continues with the mindset that
> > > it is alway easier to pull a service than develop an underutilised one.
> >
> > In this case they're simply being realistic, as most people are
> > sensible enough to realise.
> 
> Pray tell me what CT did to truely advertise this service. 


Sweet FA, same as the railway does and did to advertise anything
involving local services. You get mentions in the local media and
that's it, just as for any other local service. And that dates back to
BR, for all people like to pretend otherwise.

The Hednesford Line Sunday services are a good example: there was no
publicity at all (and I bet you've never even heard of the service),
but they carried people. Despite the lack of advertising services like
that are successful enough *if* there's a need.

Had there been a need for that service, the Walsall - Wolves would
have gained the passengers despite the lack of publicity, just as the
Sunday Hednesford line services did.


Come to that, bar the same free publicity in the local press that the
Walsall - Wolves service got, ISTR that there was naff-all serious BR
publicity for the Walsall - Hednesford reopening back in '89. 
I certainly don't recall Walsall - Hednesford opening with a pricing
offer of 10p singles (the fares charged when the last services ran),
unlike Walsall - Wolves.
And I *really* don't recall that lack of publicity having any negative
effect on loadings, certainly not in the way you're claiming it did on
Walsall - Wolves.


I think you've already decided that the railway is wrong regardless of
the facts and you're not going to accept that it's not as simplistic
as you like to think it is, so you're right: we agree to disagree and
the thread ends here. 

-- 
Ross, Lincoln, UK

We're *not* afraid
http://www.werenotafraid.com

The service was advertised at The Walsall end of the route, Bescot
Stadium still has a poster up that was originally put up when the
shuttle was axed and replaced by the service to Wellington which has
the headline "Walsall is now better connected" which tells you about
all the wonderful things you can do in Telford!

Noe it looks like it will probably be finishing, unless Walsall MBC,
Wolverhampton MBC & Centro can make enough fuss it is getting plenty of
free advertising in the news pages of local papers and anyone who reads
these must be aweare by now that it runs.

Tony