I have noticed that coach drivers seem reluctant to allow people to
take food and drink on even very long-distance bustitutions, e.g. the
2 hour plus London-Milton Keynes late night runs, one of which I had
the misfortune to use last night due to missing the last train after a
slight miscalculation.

Other than because they can't be bothered cleaning their coaches
afterwards, or because the railway can't be bothered paying them the
appropriate cleaning fee to do so (I'm guessing the latter is more
likely), why is this?  While I can understand them not wanting greasy
burgers etc, what's wrong with a cup of coffee?

In any case, there were no signs indicating this at Euston last night,
and many people[1] had to dispose of their food before boarding.  Not
good customer service.  If there is a change to the rules from the
normal situation, there should be large, prominent posters on the
approach to the platform, and visible from the departure boards which
people would have to pass to purchase said food from the station
facilities.

Notably, passenger information was also completely lacking.

[1] Not including me, as I've wised up to this now and tend to smuggle
anything I might want (in this case a bottle of Coke) on in my bag.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 11:32:40 GMT someone who may be
wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams) wrote this:-


>In any case, there were no signs indicating this at Euston last night,
>and many people[1] had to dispose of their food before boarding.  Not
>good customer service.


If the railways were interested in good customer service then they
would operate trains instead of buses.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 13:31:47 +0100, David Hansen
 wrote:


>If the railways were interested in good customer service then they
>would operate trains instead of buses.


They need to conduct their engineering work at some point, so I do not
criticise them for operating buses in this situation.  The actual
operation of the buses seems to leave a lot to be desired, however.

IMO, this is to do with the fact that National Express are operating
these replacements instead of Fraser Eagle, who seem to have improved
their operations quite a bit of late.

Actual Silverlink staff were notable by their absence.  There may have
been one at their ticket/operations office down on the suburban
platforms, but that's not particularly relevant to a bus operation
departing from the roadway of platform 1.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

"Neil Williams"  wrote in message 
news:42f5f055.1525904@news.tesco.net...

>I have noticed that coach drivers seem reluctant to allow people to
> take food and drink on even very long-distance bustitutions, e.g. the
> 2 hour plus London-Milton Keynes late night runs, one of which I had
> the misfortune to use last night due to missing the last train after a
> slight miscalculation.


No food or drink is a normal limitation on Busses.

My understanding is that it is illegal for a driver to allow passengers to 
consume alcoholic drinks while on a bus.

However food and soft drinks i would assume are down to the company 
operating the buses policy on food and drink, soemthing that they and train 
operators are entitled to impose.

The obvious difference between a bus and a train is that a bus/coach rarley 
has anywhere for you to safely sit your food and drink and to catch crumbs.

if a bus comes back with seats covered in chocolate and cheese whats the 
chances of the driver keping thier job?

Niall

David Hansen wrote:

> 
>>In any case, there were no signs indicating this at Euston last night,
>>and many people[1] had to dispose of their food before boarding.  Not
>>good customer service.
> 
> If the railways were interested in good customer service then they
> would operate trains instead of buses.


I was looking at a rough comparison of fares... London - MK return by 
coach is 9.80 [1]. A Standard Day Return by train is 28.90. (CDR is 
12 or 17 presumably depending on Virgin or Silverlink).

So, assuming you chose to pay a premium to travel by train in the first 
place, would a refund be in order I wonder !

Maybe you can eat on the coach if you pay a weekend first supplement.

[1] this was travelling at "peak" times, but it seemed to be 9.80 from 
the website regardless of what time I chose to travel.

>
> if a bus comes back with seats covered in chocolate and cheese whats the 
> chances of the driver keping thier job?
>

About the same as a train driver or conductors job....don't see any 
connection at all sorry...

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 13:47:25 +0000 (UTC), "Niall Wallace"
 wrote:


>My understanding is that it is illegal for a driver to allow passengers to 
>consume alcoholic drinks while on a bus.

Correct.

>However food and soft drinks i would assume are down to the company 
>operating the buses policy on food and drink, soemthing that they and train 
>operators are entitled to impose.
>
>The obvious difference between a bus and a train is that a bus/coach rarley 
>has anywhere for you to safely sit your food and drink and to catch crumbs.


Nor does a Class 150 Sprinter, or indeed just about any other local
stock.  The silly little shelf on the SS 321s doesn't count.


>if a bus comes back with seats covered in chocolate and cheese whats the 
>chances of the driver keping thier job?


A valid point.  However, this should be negotiated between the train
and bus operator on contracting for the hire, perhaps including an
additional charge for cleaning if appropriate.

While I understand a ban on greasy food (and sometimes wish there
would be such a ban on short distance trains like there used to be on
Merseyrail) I don't think it is reasonable to ban drinks from 2-hour
journeys, by train or by coach.  ITYF that National Express used to
sell such things on board, and still don't object to carry-ons today.

All of which does not negate the point that it isn't well-enough
publicised if there is a ban.  As one can at present take whatever
food or drink one wishes on a train, it is reasonable for one to
assume that the same applies to a replacement bus.  If it doesn't,
it's sensible to have this publicised near the eateries where people
might purchase such items within a station, or at the very least at
the entrance to the station where none are available for purchase
inside.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:11:54 GMT, turbo wrote in
<KEoJe.84055$G8.74009@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, seen in uk.railway:


> > if a bus comes back with seats covered in chocolate and cheese whats the 
> > chances of the driver keping thier job?
> >
> About the same as a train driver or conductors job....don't see any 
> connection at all sorry... 


Coach drivers are generally required to clean their "own" coaches at
the end of a duty. Train drivers and conductors ain't.

Moreover, a coach company is far more likely to take action against a
driver who doesn't enforce the company policy on taking foodstuffs on
board than a railway company ever is, especially if that driver then
leaves the mess for someone else to clean up or (worse still) just
leaves the vehicle in an ever-worsening state. [1]

(Coach drivers are pretty much three a penny; traincrews cost more to
train and employ and are worth keeping, so employers attitudes towards
the latter are very different to those towards the former.)

So, there is indeed a connection.


[1] Yes, we all know some bus and coach companies don't give a toss,
but there's an exception to prove every rule.

-- 
Ross, Lincoln, UK

We're *not* afraid
http://www.werenotafraid.com

"matt"  wrote in message 
news:dd53gm$ggg$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

>
> Maybe you can eat on the coach if you pay a weekend first supplement.


It should be Free Food and Dancing Girls on a weekend first supplement.

KW

wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams) wrote in
news:42f61bc8.12648627@news.tesco.net: 


> While I understand a ban on greasy food (and sometimes wish there
> would be such a ban on short distance trains like there used to be on
> Merseyrail) I don't think it is reasonable to ban drinks from 2-hour
> journeys, by train or by coach.  ITYF that National Express used to
> sell such things on board, and still don't object to carry-ons today.


I'm not sure I would agree that 2 hours is too long to go without food. 
Given that fewer and fewer people consider it worth the bother to remove 
their own litter, I can understand the attitude of coach companies. If they 
stand to make money out of selling refreshments though, their attitude may 
be more flexible. I've always thought it slightly ridiculous on short-haul 
flights, often much less than an hour, where the obligatory pass of the 
refreshment trolley has to be completed with indecent haste, commencing 
shortly after take-off, before belt-up time for landing.

Rick.

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 12:42:49 GMT someone who may be
wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams) wrote this:-


>>If the railways were interested in good customer service then they
>>would operate trains instead of buses.
>
>They need to conduct their engineering work at some point,


Of course, but that does not necessarily mean they should operate
buses instead of trains.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 17:16:43 +0100, Rick Hughes 
wrote:


>I'm not sure I would agree that 2 hours is too long to go without food. 


Two hours in the summer months *is* too long to expect people to go
without a (non-alcoholic) drink, however, especially given the usual
lack of working air-conditioning on coaches used on replacement work.

The amount people drink tends to vary.  I personally get dehydrated
very easily - while at home or in work I consume orange squash by the
pint, so to speak.

Perhaps coffee was a poor example as it dehydrates, mind...


>Given that fewer and fewer people consider it worth the bother to remove 
>their own litter, I can understand the attitude of coach companies. 


I can understand it, but I also see that this is a rather major change
from the usual travelling "terms and conditions" of the train, where
food and drink of all kinds is permitted, and as such something that
could really do with being publicised better.  Such as a big sign in
front of Euston Burger King on this occasion, it being the only such
establishment open, and the establishment from which most people I saw
had obtained it.

Notably, when alcohol is banned from trains due to police request
(normally during football and the likes), this is normally very well
publicised with several posters per station.  I have seen posters
pointing out that there is no food/drink on replacement buses, but far
fewer of them, and normally in smaller text.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

In message , at 14:36:15 on Sun, 7 Aug 
2005, Neil Williams  remarked:

>>My understanding is that it is illegal for a driver to allow passengers to
>>consume alcoholic drinks while on a bus.
>
>Correct.


I must get out more. What law is this, and is it fairly new?
-- 
Roland Perry

In message , at 17:16:43 
on Sun, 7 Aug 2005, Rick Hughes  remarked:

>Given that fewer and fewer people consider it worth the bother to remove
>their own litter


Which might well be connected with the fact that you can fewer and fewer 
places to dispose of it.
-- 
Roland Perry

Ken Ward wrote:

> "matt"  wrote in message
> news:dd53gm$ggg$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>
>> Maybe you can eat on the coach if you pay a weekend first supplement.
>
> It should be Free Food and Dancing Girls on a weekend first
> supplement.


Can unlimited drink be added to that?

>Niall Wallace wrote:
>>My understanding is that it is illegal for a driver to allow passengers to 
>>consume alcoholic drinks while on a bus.


Neil Williams wrote:

>Correct.


Is it?

The Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol) Act 1995 prohibits the
possession of alcohol on the way to matches on football special
coaches and trains (and makes it an offence to be drunk on them), but
I'm not aware of any specific prohibition on Public Service Vehicles
generally.

Individual companies can, of course, have their own rules on this.

-- 
Neil Sunderland
Braunton, Devon

Please observe the Reply-To address

Roland Perry wrote:

> In message , at 14:36:15 on Sun, 7
> Aug 2005, Neil Williams  remarked:
>>> My understanding is that it is illegal for a driver to allow
>>> passengers to consume alcoholic drinks while on a bus.
>>
>> Correct.
>
> I must get out more. What law is this, and is it fairly new?


It's been around for a couple of decades or so and was introduced thank to a
small minority of post-pubescent children who felt the need to drink
themselves to a point of excessive bravado and join combat with another such
group under the pretence of watching football.

"Neil Williams"  wrote in message 
news:42f5f055.1525904@news.tesco.net...



> [1] Not including me, as I've wised up to this now and tend to smuggle
> anything I might want (in this case a bottle of Coke) on in my bag.


Even if it wasn't (hidden) how can a driver refuse to allow a 'packeted'
item of food on board.  You could have just done your shopping!

tim

"Neil Williams"  wrote in message 
news:42f61bc8.12648627@news.tesco.net...

> Nor does a Class 150 Sprinter, or indeed just about any other local
> stock.  The silly little shelf on the SS 321s doesn't count.


Yes but the chances of a Class 150 taking a sharp right at the traffic 
lights is much less than your average Volvo B10

Niall

"Neil Sunderland"  wrote in message 
news:84kcf1l3i4g0em8jutdvdbmth515euhq6a@4ax.com...

> >Niall Wallace wrote:
>>>My understanding is that it is illegal for a driver to allow passengers 
>>>to
>>>consume alcoholic drinks while on a bus.
>
> Neil Williams wrote:
>>Correct.
>
> Is it?
>
> The Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol) Act 1995 prohibits the
> possession of alcohol on the way to matches on football special
> coaches and trains (and makes it an offence to be drunk on them), but
> I'm not aware of any specific prohibition on Public Service Vehicles
> generally.
>
> Individual companies can, of course, have their own rules on this.


I was informed of this one hungover morning by a mate whoes girlfriends dad 
owns a coach company.

Niall

"Neil Williams"  wrote in message 
news:42f6390e.20143504@news.tesco.net...
<SNIP>

> Notably, when alcohol is banned from trains due to police request
> (normally during football and the likes), this is normally very well
> publicised with several posters per station.  I have seen posters
> pointing out that there is no food/drink on replacement buses, but far
> fewer of them, and normally in smaller text.


I was once forced to leave a bottle of Grouse in the ticket office at Wigan 
North Western, I was on my way to the NEC but there was a Rugby maych on 
somewhere to the south.

It was still there when I got back around 8:00pm!

Good old BR.

KW

"Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
news:cGOMfWXAsk9CFApW@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk...

> In message , at 14:36:15 on Sun, 7 Aug 
> 2005, Neil Williams  remarked:
>>>My understanding is that it is illegal for a driver to allow passengers 
>>>to
>>>consume alcoholic drinks while on a bus.
>>
>>Correct.
>
> I must get out more. What law is this, and is it fairly new?



Around about 1966 it was legal in England but not in Scotland as the 
"weekend special coach" fron Accrington to Aviemore used to make sure the 
booze was put away after Carlisle.

I believe it was introduced in England later.

KW

In message <trtJe.11689$n97.5873@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, at 19:39:05 on 
Sun, 7 Aug 2005, Ken Ward  remarked:

>>>>My understanding is that it is illegal for a driver to allow passengers
>>>>to
>>>>consume alcoholic drinks while on a bus.
>>>
>>>Correct.
>>
>> I must get out more. What law is this, and is it fairly new?
>
>Around about 1966 it was legal in England but not in Scotland as the
>"weekend special coach" fron Accrington to Aviemore used to make sure the
>booze was put away after Carlisle.
>
>I believe it was introduced in England later.


Well, I've heard some odd things in my time, and have quickly picked up 
on things in the USA (where it's illegal in-car to have opened beer 
cans, or anything stronger not safely hidden inside a paper bag, in many 
states), and some UK restrictions on drinking alcohol in the street or 
at certain sport events; but I've never before heard of any restrictions 
on buses.
-- 
Roland Perry

>Neil Sunderland wrote:
>> The Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol) Act 1995 prohibits the
>> possession of alcohol on the way to matches on football special
>> coaches and trains (and makes it an offence to be drunk on them), but
>> I'm not aware of any specific prohibition on Public Service Vehicles
>> generally.
>>
>> Individual companies can, of course, have their own rules on this.
>

Niall Wallace wrote:

>I was informed of this one hungover morning by a mate whoes girlfriends dad 
>owns a coach company.


Informed of what? That you can drink alcohol on buses, or that you
can't?

-- 
Neil Sunderland
Braunton, Devon

Please observe the Reply-To address

"Neil Sunderland"  wrote in message 
news:mmpcf11390ctt2n1doa89c5g0ku2cn4sig@4ax.com...

> >Neil Sunderland wrote:
>>> The Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol) Act 1995 prohibits the
>>> possession of alcohol on the way to matches on football special
>>> coaches and trains (and makes it an offence to be drunk on them), but
>>> I'm not aware of any specific prohibition on Public Service Vehicles
>>> generally.
>>>
>>> Individual companies can, of course, have their own rules on this.
>>
> Niall Wallace wrote:
>>I was informed of this one hungover morning by a mate whoes girlfriends 
>>dad
>>owns a coach company.
>
> Informed of what? That you can drink alcohol on buses, or that you
> can't?


Of my original comment on alcohol being banned on busses, though i did 
totally fail to include my original statemnt in the post :-(

Roland Perry wrote:


>... but I've never before heard of any restrictions on buses.


Maybe Tony sneaked it into the 2006 Railways Act while we weren't looking.

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 18:55:12 +0100, Roland Perry 
wrote:


>I must get out more. What law is this, and is it fairly new?


I don't know specifically, but I have been told by a few people that
having an open container of alcohol in a moving road vehicle was
illegal.  Including, as I recall, a railway poster stating that
alcohol wasn't permitted on replacement buses.

Anyone?

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 13:49:10 +0000 (UTC), matt wrote:


> So, assuming you chose to pay a premium to travel by train in the first 
> place, would a refund be in order I wonder !


You are not alone in wondering.
-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9683845.html
(158 872 at Llanelli, 3 Jul 1999)

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 16:24:12 +0100, Ross wrote:

> Moreover, a coach company is far more likely to take action against a
> driver who doesn't enforce the company policy on taking foodstuffs on
> board than a railway company ever is


I appreciate the argument, but the counter argument is that any rail
replacement bus is not a service operated by that company according to
its normal rules, but actually a sub-contracted railway service, and
therefore railway rules should be applicable.

-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632918.html
(40 067 at Chester, 29 Sep 1979)

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 17:16:43 +0100, Rick Hughes wrote:


> I'm not sure I would agree that 2 hours is too long to go without food.


It may be if that is actually *a further* 2 hours. 

In addition, some people have to eat at or close to regular times each
day, for medical reasons.

-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9683749.html
(142 052 at Manchester Victoria, 10 Jul 2000)

Chris Tolley wrote:


> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 16:24:12 +0100, Ross wrote:
> 
>>Moreover, a coach company is far more likely to take action against a
>>driver who doesn't enforce the company policy on taking foodstuffs on
>>board than a railway company ever is
> 
> 
> I appreciate the argument, but the counter argument is that any rail
> replacement bus is not a service operated by that company according to
> its normal rules, but actually a sub-contracted railway service, and
> therefore railway rules should be applicable.
> 


The odd thing is, I don't remember bustitutions at all in "the old 
days". I do remember diversions and delays caused by single-line 
running. (I even remember overcrowding, but then I also remember relief 
trains). I'm sure it did happen, but the first total closure I remember 
was the Metrolink conversion of the Bury and Altrincham lines.

Did it happen in the past ?  How did they do the WCML electrification, 
for example ?

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 23:02:47 +0000 (UTC), matt wrote:


> The odd thing is, I don't remember bustitutions at all in "the old 
> days". Did it happen in the past ?  

Oh yes, but it was rather rarer. My first one must have been in 1975 or
so, with a replacement bus going from Stockport to Wilmslow because of
weekend engineering. Not only were buses rarer back then, but they also
tended to be on shorter runs. When Stockport was completely blockaded a
couple of years back, I was astonished at the distances that buses were
taking people.


> How did they do the WCML electrification, for example ?

Before my time, but I think it was trains into Marylebone.
-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9633088.html
(50 046 at Salisbury, Nov 1988)

Chris Tolley wrote:


>
> > How did they do the WCML electrification, for example ?
> Before my time, but I think it was trains into Marylebone.


A combination of Marylebone and Kensington Olympia while Euston was
done.  However, it was mostly late evening and sleeper trains that were
thus diverted.  Manchester had the Blue Pullman from St Pancras to
Central while the work went on, and the Wolverhampton Low Level to
Paddington service took the strain off the West Midlands.

Of course, as the work centered around electrification, the trains that
were affected were diesel (and, in the north, steam) services, which
were easier to divert.

When the electrification went north of Preston trains went via the
Settle & Carlisle and/or the GSW, with buses to intermediate stations.

Also, at that time if a four-track section had one pair of tracks
closed the other pair were available.  That isn't so nowadays, there
being a general requirement to have one track between an operating line
and a site of work.  Single line working would therefore be required to
run a service in many instances, and it is questionable if a
replacement bus service doesn't provide a better option.

In message , at 20:45:42 on Sun, 7 Aug 
2005, Neil Williams  remarked:

>>I must get out more. What law is this, and is it fairly new?
>
>I don't know specifically, but I have been told by a few people that
>having an open container of alcohol in a moving road vehicle was
>illegal.


That's the law in many American states, and people often seem to 
mentally "import" American laws to the UK.


>Including, as I recall, a railway poster stating that
>alcohol wasn't permitted on replacement buses.


I'd be interested to know about rail replacement buses, and normal 
service buses. Many of the latter prohibit all food and drink, but 
that's a different issue.
-- 
Roland Perry

On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:20:29 +0100, Roland Perry 
wrote:


>That's the law in many American states, and people often seem to 
>mentally "import" American laws to the UK.


I'm beginning to think that I was misinformed in this way.

Does anyone know if National Express, in the days of drinks trolleys,
used to sell alcohol?


>I'd be interested to know about rail replacement buses, and normal 
>service buses. Many of the latter prohibit all food and drink, but 
>that's a different issue.


Indeed.  It isn't one I like[1], but it is more understandable.

[1] Bus journeys typically take longer than car journeys.  It is in a
way compensation to be able to relax, have a coffee and read the paper
on the bus on the way to work.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

I just looked at the website for a local tour company, all they list as
prohibitions are: smoking, pets, playing radio/cassette.

http://www.skillsholidays.co.uk/terms/index_16.html

National Express have a much more comprehensive prohibitions list
(including alcohol) but permit:

        8.2 Food and Drinks: Customers are welcome to bring on board the
        coach hot drinks, provided they are fitted with a safety lid to
        avoid spillage, cold non alcoholic drinks and cold food.

http://www.nationalexpress.com/utilities/conditions.cfm
-- 
Roland Perry

"Chippy"  writes:


> Also, at that time if a four-track section had one pair of tracks
> closed the other pair were available.  That isn't so nowadays, there
> being a general requirement to have one track between an operating line
> and a site of work.


Is the new system really much safer than the old? Have the safety
wallahs produced a convincing case for the extra expense and
inconvenience as a result of all their new rules?

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:51:17 GMT, Chris Tolley wrote in
<etuk03eepwiy$.5gaxhl43lwxn$.dlg@40tude.net>, seen in uk.railway:

> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 16:24:12 +0100, Ross wrote:

> > Moreover, a coach company is far more likely to take action against a
> > driver who doesn't enforce the company policy on taking foodstuffs on
> > board than a railway company ever is
> 
> I appreciate the argument, but the counter argument is that any rail
> replacement bus is not a service operated by that company according to
> its normal rules, but actually a sub-contracted railway service, and
> therefore railway rules should be applicable.


I agree with this - but I bet the coach companies wouldn't, and even
if the contract said it did, they wouldn't tell their drivers about it
- and they'd still discipline just the same.

The railway can be unprofessional as Hell at times in its staff
relations and indeed in the provision of information to staff, but MX
is that the bus/coach industry makes the railway look like utter
perfection. Which says very little for the bus & coach industry.

-- 
Ross, Lincoln, UK

We're *not* afraid
http://www.werenotafraid.com

"Chris Tolley"  wrote in message
news:9jeu11shseo0$.1b9n4xvfdjj78.dlg@40tude.net...

> On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 23:02:47 +0000 (UTC), matt wrote:
>
> > The odd thing is, I don't remember bustitutions at all in "the old
> > days". Did it happen in the past ?
> Oh yes, but it was rather rarer. My first one must have been in 1975 or
> so, with a replacement bus going from Stockport to Wilmslow because of
> weekend engineering. Not only were buses rarer back then, but they also
> tended to be on shorter runs. When Stockport was completely blockaded a
> couple of years back, I was astonished at the distances that buses were
> taking people.
>
> > How did they do the WCML electrification, for example ?
> Before my time, but I think it was trains into Marylebone.


The first rail replacement bus I can remember travelling on was on a LMR
rail rover in 1966, when I travelled from Liverpool to Derby on a Sunday.
They were connecting up the new Harecastle Tunnel, so the old one had closed
the day before (echoes of the radio play 'The Last train through the
Harecastle Tunnel') and the new one wasn't due to open till the Monday
morning. We were bustituted Kidsgrove to Stoke.

I remember seeing buses on 'Railway Emergency Service' around Chislehurst in
1957-59 while the Bickley Junction to Swanley line was being quadrupled.

Peter

"Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
news:FmaKXjGTow9CFAoU@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk...

>I just looked at the website for a local tour company, all they list as
> prohibitions are: smoking, pets, playing radio/cassette.
>
> http://www.skillsholidays.co.uk/terms/index_16.html
>
> National Express have a much more comprehensive prohibitions list
> (including alcohol) but permit:
>
>        8.2 Food and Drinks: Customers are welcome to bring on board the
>        coach hot drinks, provided they are fitted with a safety lid to
>        avoid spillage, cold non alcoholic drinks and cold food.
>
> http://www.nationalexpress.com/utilities/conditions.cfm
> -- 
> Roland Perry


Just looked at Scottish CityLinks Conditions of carraige at
http://www.citylink.co.uk/conditionscarr.htm

 48. Alcoholic drinks. Passengers are not permitted by law to take alcoholic 
drinks onto coaches for the purpose of consuming them on board, nor to drink 
such drinks on the coach or to remain on the coach when in the opinion of 
the driver they are under the influence of alcoholic drink.

52. Food. Passengers are not allowed to take onto our coaches any hot food 
eg. chips, take-away meals etc. We are entitled to refuse access to any 
passenger with hot food.

53. Hot Drinks are allowed on board the coach if they are in a cup or 
container with a secure lid. They may not be consumed in the front passenger 
seats of the coach.

Niall

"Ross"  wrote in message 
news:4ukef150mkahhv4qpjajuvjutfnl37vvho@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:51:17 GMT, Chris Tolley wrote in
> <etuk03eepwiy$.5gaxhl43lwxn$.dlg@40tude.net>, seen in uk.railway:
>> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 16:24:12 +0100, Ross wrote:
>
>> > Moreover, a coach company is far more likely to take action against a
>> > driver who doesn't enforce the company policy on taking foodstuffs on
>> > board than a railway company ever is
>>
>> I appreciate the argument, but the counter argument is that any rail
>> replacement bus is not a service operated by that company according to
>> its normal rules, but actually a sub-contracted railway service, and
>> therefore railway rules should be applicable.
>
> I agree with this - but I bet the coach companies wouldn't, and even
> if the contract said it did, they wouldn't tell their drivers about it
> - and they'd still discipline just the same.
>
> The railway can be unprofessional as Hell at times in its staff
> relations and indeed in the provision of information to staff, but MX
> is that the bus/coach industry makes the railway look like utter
> perfection. Which says very little for the bus & coach industry.
>


Being a sub-contracted service doesn't mean the bus/coach companies terms of 
carriage are suddenly dropped in favour of the rail companies.

When a company hires a bus company to transport their staff somewhere they 
hire the bus on the terms of the bus operator (which may have been 
negotiated price wise) is there any difference between that and a train 
company hiring busses to replace their trains? I think not.
The bus companies can still reject the request for service, after all its 
the train company thats needing the busses not the bus company needing the 
passengers.

Niall

In message <dd8brj$p33$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, at 
19:29:55 on Mon, 8 Aug 2005, Niall Wallace  
remarked:

>Just looked at Scottish CityLinks Conditions of carraige at
>http://www.citylink.co.uk/conditionscarr.htm
>
> 48. Alcoholic drinks. Passengers are not permitted by law to take alcoholic
>drinks onto coaches for the purpose of consuming them on board


But we are no nearer to any suggestions as to what "law" this is.
-- 
Roland Perry

On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 21:19:48 +0100, Roland Perry 
wrote:


>In message <dd8brj$p33$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, at 
>19:29:55 on Mon, 8 Aug 2005, Niall Wallace  
>remarked:
>>Just looked at Scottish CityLinks Conditions of carraige at
>>http://www.citylink.co.uk/conditionscarr.htm
>>
>> 48. Alcoholic drinks. Passengers are not permitted by law to take alcoholic
>>drinks onto coaches for the purpose of consuming them on board
>
>But we are no nearer to any suggestions as to what "law" this is.


I'm fairly certain I've been on (hired) coaches in England which have
had signs up near the door claiming there is a law against drinking
alcohol onboard, but not citing which exact law.

Sounds like another reason to travel by train...
-- 
Arthur Figgis                Surrey, UK

On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:36:03 +0000 (UTC), "Niall Wallace"
 wrote:


>When a company hires a bus company to transport their staff somewhere they 
>hire the bus on the terms of the bus operator (which may have been 
>negotiated price wise) is there any difference between that and a train 
>company hiring busses to replace their trains? I think not.
>The bus companies can still reject the request for service, after all its 
>the train company thats needing the busses not the bus company needing the 
>passengers.


Of course they *can* refuse the request, but it would not make good
business sense to do so.  What would make sense would be to allow food
and drink but at an additional cleaning charge.  Mind you, the issue
could be that the railway have been offered this but won't pay!

That said, the above is typical of the "we know best" attitude of bus
and coach companies and some (but not all) of their drivers, which is
similar to but typically worse than the railway.

The best one I had was on a replacement bus from MK to London some
time ago.  It was a double-decker coach, and I boarded, with a cup of
coffee as there were no signs saying otherwise, and sat at the front
upstairs.  Before departure, I could hear that the driver was having a
heated argument with a National Express[1] steward about that "idiot"
(obviously me) sitting at the front upstairs with coffee even though
he (I) should know better.  Note that he had not asked me not to take
the coffee on board, nor was there any sign to that effect.

It was almost a shame that he didn't confront me as it would perhaps
have been worth having to wait for the next bus to make an idiot of
him.  He didn't get a thankyou when I got off, though.

[1] I have noticed that the standards of staffing, coaches and general
operations is far poorer under the Silverlink National Express
contract than the VT Fraser Eagle one.  The latter was extremely
professional after the year or so of weekend bustitution, and they
even *gave out free* food and drink on board on occasions, never mind
ban it.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:36:03 +0000 (UTC), Niall Wallace wrote:

> Being a sub-contracted service doesn't mean the bus/coach companies
> terms of carriage are suddenly dropped in favour of the rail
> companies. 


Au contraire - according to the NCoC: 

61. Carriage by road vehicles
Where relevant, these Conditions apply to the carriage of passengers and
their property in road vehicles which a Train Company owns or which are
operated by any other party on its behalf unless notice is given to show
that different conditions apply. For these purposes, the term 'train'
includes any road vehicle owned or operated by a Train Company or on its
behalf.
-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9683636.html
(Class 101 and 108 units at Chester, Jun 1985)

In article , Arthur Figgis 
 writes

>>> 48. Alcoholic drinks. Passengers are not permitted by law to take alcoholic
>>>drinks onto coaches for the purpose of consuming them on board
>>
>>But we are no nearer to any suggestions as to what "law" this is.
>
>I'm fairly certain I've been on (hired) coaches in England which have
>had signs up near the door claiming there is a law against drinking
>alcohol onboard, but not citing which exact law.
>
>Sounds like another reason to travel by train...


It's beginning to sound to me like a clause of that grand old law we 
have been known to fall back on in fire safety when the Fire Precautions 
Act 1971 (about to disappear) fails us - the Bluff and Persuasion Act.
-- 
Sue
The Sir Nigel Gresley Locomotive Preservation Trust is now at
http://www.sirnigelgresley.co.uk
Including - 00 gauge Hornby and Bachmann models for sale.

In message <1666zdzheiwl3$.1lzlwk94jtiej$.dlg@40tude.net>, at 23:11:28 
on Mon, 8 Aug 2005, Chris Tolley  remarked:

>> Being a sub-contracted service doesn't mean the bus/coach companies
>> terms of carriage are suddenly dropped in favour of the rail
>> companies.
>
>Au contraire - according to the NCoC:
>
>61. Carriage by road vehicles
>Where relevant, these Conditions apply to the carriage of passengers and
>their property in road vehicles which a Train Company owns or which are
>operated by any other party on its behalf unless notice is given to show
>that different conditions apply. For these purposes, the term 'train'
>includes any road vehicle owned or operated by a Train Company or on its
>behalf.


So does that include having an automatic licence to sell alcohol on 
board?

-- 
Roland Perry

In message , at 22:54:22 on 
Mon, 8 Aug 2005, Arthur Figgis  remarked:

>I'm fairly certain I've been on (hired) coaches in England which have
>had signs up near the door claiming there is a law against drinking
>alcohol onboard, but not citing which exact law.


It wouldn't be that difficult, would it?

There are plenty of people who [1] say "I can't tell you that because of 
Data Protection (Act)", but when I see claims that something is 
"unlawful", and where there's no mention of what law, and no 
common-sense law I've ever heard of which might apply, I immediately get 
suspicious.

[1] Normally spuriously, but at least they quote which law they 
incorrectly think applies.
-- 
Roland Perry

Chris Tolley wrote:


>> Being a sub-contracted service doesn't mean the bus/coach companies
>> terms of carriage are suddenly dropped in favour of the rail
>> companies. 
> 
> Au contraire - according to the NCoC: 
> 
> 61. Carriage by road vehicles
> Where relevant, these Conditions apply to the carriage of passengers and
> their property in road vehicles which a Train Company owns or which are
> operated by any other party on its behalf unless notice is given to show
> that different conditions apply. For these purposes, the term 'train'
> includes any road vehicle owned or operated by a Train Company or on its
> behalf.


So in that case rail conditions of carriage applies when replacement buses
are in operation. The train companies make it quite clear in notices that
cycles (and prams?) may not be carried but I very much doubt any mention as
to the consumption of food and drink would be made.

So basically the bus/coach drivers are wrong in trying to enforce a
something that doesn't apply in the contract the passengers have entered
into when buying their rail ticket.

-- 
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:40:18 +0100, Phil Richards
 wrote:


>Chris Tolley wrote:
>
>>> Being a sub-contracted service doesn't mean the bus/coach companies
>>> terms of carriage are suddenly dropped in favour of the rail
>>> companies. 
>> 
>> Au contraire - according to the NCoC: 
>> 
>> 61. Carriage by road vehicles
>> Where relevant, these Conditions apply to the carriage of passengers and
>> their property in road vehicles which a Train Company owns or which are
>> operated by any other party on its behalf unless notice is given to show
>> that different conditions apply. For these purposes, the term 'train'
>> includes any road vehicle owned or operated by a Train Company or on its
>> behalf.
>
>So in that case rail conditions of carriage applies when replacement buses
>are in operation. The train companies make it quite clear in notices that
>cycles (and prams?) may not be carried but I very much doubt any mention as
>to the consumption of food and drink would be made.
>
>So basically the bus/coach drivers are wrong in trying to enforce a
>something that doesn't apply in the contract the passengers have entered
>into when buying their rail ticket.


But there's nothing in the NCoC specifically giving you the right to
consume food and drink during your journey.

In message , at 17:08:28 on 
Tue, 9 Aug 2005, asdf <invalid@invalid.invalid> remarked:

>>So basically the bus/coach drivers are wrong in trying to enforce a
>>something that doesn't apply in the contract the passengers have entered
>>into when buying their rail ticket.
>
>But there's nothing in the NCoC specifically giving you the right to
>consume food and drink during your journey.


But compare that to the bus company CoC, which does ban [most of] it. 
The silence must mean it's OK. It'd also be a bit contradictory having a 
buffet car selling food and drink!
-- 
Roland Perry

On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:55:41 +0100, Roland Perry 
wrote:


>But compare that to the bus company CoC, which does ban [most of] it. 
>The silence must mean it's OK. It'd also be a bit contradictory having a 
>buffet car selling food and drink!


Besides which, a lot of the way the law and other such rules work in
this country is based on the premise that if it doesn't say you can't,
you probably can.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

"Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
news:qQoh6PIXsF+CFAnr@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk...

>>61. Carriage by road vehicles
>>Where relevant, these Conditions apply to the carriage of passengers and
>>their property in road vehicles which a Train Company owns or which are
>>operated by any other party on its behalf unless notice is given to show
>>that different conditions apply. For these purposes, the term 'train'
>>includes any road vehicle owned or operated by a Train Company or on its
>>behalf.
>
> So does that include having an automatic licence to sell alcohol on board?


Its a train under the terms of the train ticket... but legally its still a 
bus.

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 18:04:49 GMT, wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
Williams) wrote:


>On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:55:41 +0100, Roland Perry 
>wrote:
>
>>But compare that to the bus company CoC, which does ban [most of] it. 
>>The silence must mean it's OK. It'd also be a bit contradictory having a 
>>buffet car selling food and drink!
>
>Besides which, a lot of the way the law and other such rules work in
>this country is based on the premise that if it doesn't say you can't,
>you probably can.


Right, but that still doesn't make the right to eat and drink part of
"the contract the passengers have entered into when buying their rail
ticket".

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:38:01 +0100, asdf <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:


>Right, but that still doesn't make the right to eat and drink part of
>"the contract the passengers have entered into when buying their rail
>ticket".


No, and I never said it did, but it does make it reasonable for
passengers to assume that it is permitted, as it isn't an unreasonable
activity, nothing says you can't *and* it is normally permitted on
trains.

Given that just about all publicity for replacement buses states that
cycles and non-folding prams are not permitted, one would deduce from
this that everything else normally permitted on trains is.  If not,
this should be stated explicitly, if only for good customer service.

I have seen publicity, but only once, not at all at Euston, and not as
prominent as it needed to be to save people wasting money by
purchasing food from a station takeaway for the explicit purpose of
consumption on board, for example.  That a number of people were
turned away from the coach in question, all carrying food and drink of
some description, suggests to me that I am not alone in the above.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:34:03 +0100, Roland Perry 
wrote:


>In message , at 22:54:22 on 
>Mon, 8 Aug 2005, Arthur Figgis  remarked:
>>I'm fairly certain I've been on (hired) coaches in England which have
>>had signs up near the door claiming there is a law against drinking
>>alcohol onboard, but not citing which exact law.
>
>It wouldn't be that difficult, would it?


No, asusming the law really exists! 


>There are plenty of people who [1] say "I can't tell you that because of 
>Data Protection (Act)", but when I see claims that something is 
>"unlawful", and where there's no mention of what law, and no 
>common-sense law I've ever heard of which might apply, I immediately get 
>suspicious.


I'm waiting for someone to post suggesting that because there is no
"Eating and Drinking on Coaches is Explicity Allowed by Parliament
Act", it must by default not be permitted... 


>[1] Normally spuriously, but at least they quote which law they 
>incorrectly think applies.


There is also the option of just inventing something which sounds like
it could exist (see almost newspaper covereage of EU law).
-- 
Arthur Figgis                Surrey, UK

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:27:55 GMT, wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
Williams) wrote:


>On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:38:01 +0100, asdf <invalid@invalid.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>Right, but that still doesn't make the right to eat and drink part of
>>"the contract the passengers have entered into when buying their rail
>>ticket".
>
>No, and I never said it did,


But an earlier poster did - it seems the point of this thread has
drifted.


>Given that just about all publicity for replacement buses states that
>cycles and non-folding prams are not permitted, one would deduce from
>this that everything else normally permitted on trains is.  If not,
>this should be stated explicitly, if only for good customer service.


Agreed - it is most discourteous of them not to mention it.

Arthur Figgis  wrote in 
news:mg7if1pss9oq936s5d5lm67gvur528p4lo@4ax.com:

[ snip ]

> 
> No, asusming the law really exists! 
> 

[ snip ]

Will this law do? AF doesn't say whether he was going to a sporting event.

Section 1 (1) of the Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol) Act 1985, as 
amended by the Public Order Act 1986, prohibits the carriage of alcohol on 
a PCV that is being used for the principal purpose of carrying passengers 
for the whole or part of a journey to or from a designated sporting event.

Roland Perry wrote:


>> Including, as I recall, a railway poster stating that
>> alcohol wasn't permitted on replacement buses.
> 
> I'd be interested to know about rail replacement buses, and normal 
> service buses. Many of the latter prohibit all food and drink, but 
> that's a different issue.


Alcohol may _not_ be consumed on _any_ bus or coach in the UK, whether
a service bus, a chartered coach, a privately owned minibus or any
other variation. If it's got more than 9 seats, no booze.

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

Sue McNaughton wrote:


> It's beginning to sound to me like a clause of that grand old law we 
> have been known to fall back on in fire safety when the Fire Precautions 
> Act 1971 (about to disappear) fails us - the Bluff and Persuasion Act.


Coastliner and Harrogate & District bus companies both state that it
is illegal for passengers to consume alcoholic drinks on any bus.

When I was at university, we were told that it is illegal for
passengers to consume alcoholic drinks in any minibus.

If it _is_ bluff and persuasion, it's pretty damn pervasive.

There is a law. I don't know the exact name of it, I don't know the
reference, but I have seen far too much corroborative evidence to deny
that it exists.

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

Stevie D  wrote:


> Sue McNaughton wrote:
> 
> > It's beginning to sound to me like a clause of that grand old law we
> > have been known to fall back on in fire safety when the Fire Precautions
> > Act 1971 (about to disappear) fails us - the Bluff and Persuasion Act.
> 
> Coastliner and Harrogate & District bus companies both state that it
> is illegal for passengers to consume alcoholic drinks on any bus.
> 
> When I was at university, we were told that it is illegal for
> passengers to consume alcoholic drinks in any minibus.
> 
> If it _is_ bluff and persuasion, it's pretty damn pervasive.


It's never persuaded me, though if I take a can of something on a bus,
I'll be discreet. There are similar policies in the US, and again, it
didn't really bother me.

-- 
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
pictures at homepage.mac.com/davidhornecomposer

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:09:13 +0100, Stevie D
 wrote:


>Alcohol may _not_ be consumed on _any_ bus or coach in the UK, whether
>a service bus, a chartered coach, a privately owned minibus or any
>other variation. If it's got more than 9 seats, no booze.


Which I've heard as well.  But *what law states this*?

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Niall Wallace wrote:

>Just looked at Scottish CityLinks Conditions of carraige at
>http://www.citylink.co.uk/conditionscarr.htm
>
> 48. Alcoholic drinks. Passengers are not permitted by law to take alcoholic 
>drinks onto coaches for the purpose of consuming them on board, nor to drink 
>such drinks on the coach or to remain on the coach when in the opinion of 
>the driver they are under the influence of alcoholic drink.


Things are different in Scotland: that's covered by Section 92 of the
Licensing (Scotland) Act 1976 and Section 70 of the Criminal Justice
(Scotland) Act 1980.

-- 
Neil Sunderland
Braunton, Devon

Please observe the Reply-To address

Stevie D wrote:

>Alcohol may _not_ be consumed on _any_ bus or coach in the UK, whether
>a service bus, a chartered coach, a privately owned minibus or any
>other variation. If it's got more than 9 seats, no booze.


And your evidence for that assertion is...?

At least one company seems happy to provide it:
<http://www.tellingsgoldenmiller.co.uk/coach.htm>

"CORPORATE HOSPITALITY - GOLD SERVICE COACHES
[...]
All refreshments are chosen from our splendid menus and served on
china with appropriate cutlery and glassware. Drinks are available
from the well stocked bar."

-- 
Neil Sunderland
Braunton, Devon

Please observe the Reply-To address

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:09:13 +0100 someone who may be Stevie D
 wrote this:-


>Alcohol may _not_ be consumed on _any_ bus or coach in the UK, whether
>a service bus, a chartered coach, a privately owned minibus or any
>other variation. If it's got more than 9 seats, no booze.


The question asked in this thread is, which law(s) state this?

So far the question remains unanswered.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

asdf wrote:


>>Given that just about all publicity for replacement buses states that
>>cycles and non-folding prams are not permitted, one would deduce from
>>this that everything else normally permitted on trains is.  If not,
>>this should be stated explicitly, if only for good customer service.
> 
> Agreed - it is most discourteous of them not to mention it.


And therefore wrong for the driver(s) to turn away passengers seen carrying
food and drink onboard the buses. What it needs next time is for someone to
challenge them about the matter with a follow up letter addressed to both
the appropriate bus and train companies.

-- 
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

In message <42f92bc3$0$13699$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>, at 
22:18:43 on Tue, 9 Aug 2005, Peter Wright <Overground@?.?.invalid> 
remarked:

>Will this law do? AF doesn't say whether he was going to a sporting event.
>
>Section 1 (1) of the Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol) Act 1985, as
>amended by the Public Order Act 1986, prohibits the carriage of alcohol on
>a PCV that is being used for the principal purpose of carrying passengers
>for the whole or part of a journey to or from a designated sporting event.


Yes, that one is known about. What's odd is no-one seems to have heard 
of a law when there isn't a sporting event involved - and yet numerous 
transport companies make generic claims about "laws".

I was in a DIY barn yesterday, and they had a sign about not selling 
knives to youngsters (I can't remember the age) but it mentioned the law 
involved (Offensive Weapons Act). It's not that hard, if the law really 
exists.
-- 
Roland Perry

In message , at 00:09:13 on 
Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Stevie D  remarked:

>Alcohol may _not_ be consumed on _any_ bus or coach in the UK, whether
>a service bus, a chartered coach, a privately owned minibus or any
>other variation. If it's got more than 9 seats, no booze.


But what law is this, and when was it introduced?
-- 
Roland Perry

In article , Roland 
Perry  writes

>>Just looked at Scottish CityLinks Conditions of carraige at
>>http://www.citylink.co.uk/conditionscarr.htm
>>
>> 48. Alcoholic drinks. Passengers are not permitted by law to take alcoholic
>>drinks onto coaches for the purpose of consuming them on board
>
>But we are no nearer to any suggestions as to what "law" this is.


A search of the on-line legislation found nothing suggestive.

One tour company's web site claims European law forbids alcohol and 
smoking on coaches. A search failed to find any such Directive.

-- 
Clive D.W. Feather                       | Home: 
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work)             | Web:  <http://www.davros.org>
Fax: +44 870 051 9937                    | Work: 
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In message <Df$EZUsdVj+CFwS4@romana.davros.org>, at 18:11:57 on Wed, 10 
Aug 2005, Clive D. W. Feather  remarked:

>>But we are no nearer to any suggestions as to what "law" this is.
>
>A search of the on-line legislation found nothing suggestive.


I have spent quite a while trying to track anything down by online 
searches (perhaps ten times as long as I'd normally expect to get a 
result) and have drawn a blank.

I'm beginning to think it's the "no booze on football coaches" law, but 
[wrongly] applied to all coaches because the companies see it as a 
useful smokescreen.
-- 
Roland Perry

>Neil Sunderland"  wrote in message 
>news:f97jf1d94acb8lkmg1qvq1r5rah529qsqo@4ax.com...
> Niall Wallace wrote:
>>Just looked at Scottish CityLinks Conditions of carraige at
>>http://www.citylink.co.uk/conditionscarr.htm
>>
>> 48. Alcoholic drinks. Passengers are not permitted by law to take 
>> alcoholic
>>drinks onto coaches for the purpose of consuming them on board, nor to 
>>drink
>>such drinks on the coach or to remain on the coach when in the opinion of
>>the driver they are under the influence of alcoholic drink.
>
> Things are different in Scotland: that's covered by Section 92 of the
> Licensing (Scotland) Act 1976 and Section 70 of the Criminal Justice
> (Scotland) Act 1980.


Yes which means we have found the original law i was reffering to!

Niall

>> Niall Wallace wrote:
>>>Just looked at Scottish CityLinks Conditions of carraige
>>> 48. Alcoholic drinks. Passengers are not permitted by law to take alcoholic 
>>>drinks onto coaches for the purpose of consuming them on board, nor to drink 
>>>such drinks on the coach or to remain on the coach when in the opinion of 
>>>the driver they are under the influence of alcoholic drink.

>Neil Sunderland wrote:
>> Things are different in Scotland: that's covered by Section 92 of the
>> Licensing (Scotland) Act 1976 and Section 70 of the Criminal Justice
>> (Scotland) Act 1980.


Niall Wallace wrote:

>Yes which means we have found the original law i was reffering to!


But no-one has established whether either of those Acts actually
prohibit all alcohol on all buses, though.

The only useful thing I can find online is on a cached copy of a
discussion on the Livingston FC Fans website:

"Section 70 of Part V of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1980
states:
....Intoxicating liquor must not be carried on coaches travelling to or
from designated grounds. Operators will draw hirers attention to the
requirements of the law, and drivers shall, as far as reasonably
practical, supervise boarding passengers and check that they are not
obviously carrying intoxicating alcohol. Drivers will not be expected
to carry out baggage or body searches, nor will they be expected to
confiscate alcohol or to remove passengers without police
assistance....."

That's probably not too dissimilar to what's in the Sporting Events
(Control of Alcohol) Act 1995. Perhaps someone in uk.transport.buses
might know?

-- 
Neil Sunderland
Braunton, Devon

Please observe the Reply-To address

>> Niall Wallace wrote:
>>>Just looked at Scottish CityLinks Conditions of carraige
>>> 48. Alcoholic drinks. Passengers are not permitted by law to take alcoholic 
>>>drinks onto coaches for the purpose of consuming them on board, nor to drink 
>>>such drinks on the coach or to remain on the coach when in the opinion of 
>>>the driver they are under the influence of alcoholic drink.

>Neil Sunderland wrote:
>> Things are different in Scotland: that's covered by Section 92 of the
>> Licensing (Scotland) Act 1976 and Section 70 of the Criminal Justice
>> (Scotland) Act 1980.


Niall Wallace wrote:

>Yes which means we have found the original law i was reffering to!


But no-one has established whether either of those Acts actually
prohibit all alcohol on all buses, though.

The only useful thing I can find online is on a cached copy of a
discussion on the Livingston FC Fans website:

"Section 70 of Part V of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1980
states:
....Intoxicating liquor must not be carried on coaches travelling to or
from designated grounds. Operators will draw hirers attention to the
requirements of the law, and drivers shall, as far as reasonably
practical, supervise boarding passengers and check that they are not
obviously carrying intoxicating alcohol. Drivers will not be expected
to carry out baggage or body searches, nor will they be expected to
confiscate alcohol or to remove passengers without police
assistance....."

That's probably not too dissimilar to what's in the Sporting Events
(Control of Alcohol) Act 1995. Perhaps someone in uk.transport.buses
might know?

-- 
Neil Sunderland
Braunton, Devon

Please observe the Reply-To address

In message , Neil Sunderland 
 writes

>Stevie D wrote:
>>Alcohol may _not_ be consumed on _any_ bus or coach in the UK, whether
>>a service bus, a chartered coach, a privately owned minibus or any
>>other variation. If it's got more than 9 seats, no booze.
>
>And your evidence for that assertion is...?
>
>At least one company seems happy to provide it:
><http://www.tellingsgoldenmiller.co.uk/coach.htm>
>
>"CORPORATE HOSPITALITY - GOLD SERVICE COACHES
>[...]
>All refreshments are chosen from our splendid menus and served on
>china with appropriate cutlery and glassware. Drinks are available
>from the well stocked bar."


Although note from the same company's website:

"b. Where the hire is to a sporting event, the hirer should be aware of 
the legal requirements relating to alcohol, contained in the Sporting 
Events (Control of Alcohol) Regulations 1995, and the conditions of 
entry to race courses as laid down by the Race Course Association Ltd. 
The company will provide details of these restrictions on request."

For what it's worth, during more than a decade of work on coaches, in 
the UK and in mainland Europe I have heard quoted many times that " 
alcohol on coaches is against the law".

The only time I've ever heard an act quoted was when I was training as a 
Blue Badge Guide in 1993, that act being the Sporting Events (Control of 
Alcohol) Act 1985, which has already been quoted in this thread.   Even 
then we were told that it really only applied to football matches, not 
other sporting events, although as this was not defined in the Act, even 
then I failed to see how this could be the case.

That said, any company (or operator) can - as a matter of policy - ban 
alcohol on its vehicles.   Everyone I've ever worked for does exactly 
that and - given some of the things I've seen happen when it's not been 
enforced - I can only regard it as a Good Thing, backed up by a law or 
not.
-- 
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message <CTrhVRNBVM$CFwqJ@bluebadge.demon.co.uk>, at 16:50:25 on Fri, 
12 Aug 2005, Ian Jelf  remarked:

>The only time I've ever heard an act quoted was when I was training as 
>a Blue Badge Guide in 1993, that act being the Sporting Events (Control 
>of Alcohol) Act 1985, which has already been quoted in this thread. 
>Even then we were told that it really only applied to football matches, 
>not other sporting events, although as this was not defined in the Act, 
>even then I failed to see how this could be the case.


The Act will say that the exact kinds of sporting events attracting a 
ban will be specified by the Secretary of State in secondary legislation 
(an SI).

I've done some more searching (initially to try and find such an SI), 
and have found several interesting documents on the VOSA website, which 
include references to a huge array of legislation related to PSVs.

http://www.vosa.gov.uk  then search for "alcohol".

All it mentions is the sporting trips and (for Scotland only) 
"Contravention of Section 92 of the Licensing (Scotland) Act 1976 and
Section 70 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1980."
-- 
Roland Perry