As discussed, Z1-6 travelcards were being accepted without any problems
at all on both Hex and Connect services today, due to LUL Engineering
work.

I used by NR Gold Card Z1-6 and had no trouble at all.

The fact these were valid didn't stop the HEx ticket machines and
ticket office at Heathrow selling tickets at the usual rate, or a
member of Hex staff advising the full fares to a tourist when they
asked how much it was to London. The person in question, even shared a
joke about the rip off with his colleague afterwards, obviously well
aware the travelcards are valid today.

Confusingly, the Paddington Departure screens also displayed the usual
"Travelcards NOT valid on this Train" message.

And yes, LHR still full of overweight American tourists with far too
much luggage, complaining about everything. I nearly had a go at the
woman who was reluctantly put on Hex for the transfer to T4 and said to
her partner, "What is this *thing*?", "Isn't there a better way to
T4?", and "Why were we not told T4 was miles away?"

regards
HN28

That American was probably one of those who thinks that if you cannot
drive anywhere, it's not worth going to! Having said that, if you've
seen what passes for public transport in large parts of the States
(although not everywhere, by any means) you'd agree!

Would it have been worth reporting those HEx staff to management for
ripping off customers and then laughing about it?

billetelic_ferroequinologist@hotmail.com wrote:

>
> Would it have been worth reporting those HEx staff to management for
> ripping off customers and then laughing about it?


The deal is that HEx will take LU customers who have paid the Z1-6
Travelcard fare, and undoubtedly this will be at LU expense.  If people
were going to use HEx anyway, then both HEx and LU would want them to
pay the normal fare, and it can't be a ripoff to pay a normal fare.
There are plenty of other examples of the same passengers on a train or
a plane paying different fares.

However, I shall be interested when I visit Heathrow tomorrow to see
what advice is offered to passengers heading for the Piccadilly Line.
-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On 6 Aug 2005 13:14:16 -0700, hn28_signal@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

Suitable responses, perhaps:


> "What is this *thing*?"

"This thing is a passenger train. Think of it as a stretch Limo, only
longer."


> "Isn't there a better way to T4?"

"You *can* fly to it, but you have to start from somewhere else."


> "Why were we not told T4 was miles away?"

"Because it isn't."

-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632870.html
(33 103 at Southampton Central, 13 May 1985)

hn28_signal@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
<snip>

> And yes, LHR still full of overweight American tourists with far too
> much luggage, complaining about everything. I nearly had a go at the
> woman who was reluctantly put on Hex for the transfer to T4 and said to
> her partner, "What is this *thing*?", "Isn't there a better way to
> T4?", and "Why were we not told T4 was miles away?"


Are you sure?  No red-blooded Yank would use the passive voice.

"Why didn't they tell us T4 was miles away?" is more like it.

Unfortunately, the poster who implied that the passenger in question had 
never seen a train may have been right.  Now, if this woman had flown 
out of Denver, she probably would have had to take a train to her 
departure concourse, and she would have been clear on the concept and 
thus totally cool about Hex.  It was her loss;  the train tunnel at 
Denver International is decorated with little propellors sticking out of 
the walls.

Louis Krupp
Not overweight, but otherwise American.

On 6 Aug 2005 13:14:16 -0700, hn28_signal@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


>As discussed, Z1-6 travelcards were being accepted without any problems
>at all on both Hex and Connect services today, due to LUL Engineering
>work.


I had a ride on Connect (from Padd) and was told I shouldn't have
done, but because I'd pointed out my planned journey to him rather
than just showing a Travelcard he'd "let me off".  Nice units, but it
looks like the staff training is lacking.  (No problem with the guy
himself - he was very pleasant - but he obviously hadn't been properly
informed).

I now see why they can't issue Travelcards as they have very small
hand-held ticket machines.  Why no SPORTIS/Avantix, one wonders?


>Confusingly, the Paddington Departure screens also displayed the usual
>"Travelcards NOT valid on this Train" message.


I saw that.  Disgraceful, and there were not even posters saying
otherwise.

TBH, I'm of the opinion that putting the Tube passengers on HEx was
probably a bad thing.  Connect would have made a lot more sense, as
it's not the "full service" so wouldn't bring as many fares arguments.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 01:59:57 GMT, Chris Tolley 
wrote:


>"This thing is a passenger train. Think of it as a stretch Limo, only
>longer."


Probably a suitable response.  The Connect units are spartan but
reasonably comfortable, and as usual with German high standards of
build quality, but the HEx units are (and look) very nice indeed.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Richard J. wrote:


> However, I shall be interested when I visit Heathrow tomorrow to see
> what advice is offered to passengers heading for the Piccadilly
> Line.


LU were doing a good job of advising prospective customers what to do,
i.e. buy a Travelcard at the LU station and then use it on HEx or
Connect.

Heathrow Connect decided, after the LU leaflets were printed with the
normal 30-minute service timings, to cut the service to one an hour for
most of Sunday. For some reason they were running the down service on
the fast line, stopping at Ealing, Southall and Hayes.  The up service I
caught used the up slow through Hayes, then the up fast through Southall
and Ealing, then back to the up slow.  Together with slack platform work
at Heathrow, this didn't do much for HEx/Connect punctuality today (and
probably not FGW's either).

My Freedom Pass was accepted except by one very aggressive guard, or
whatever they're called, on Connect who said "I know what I'm talking
about" and that he'd checked with his supervisor and that Travelcards
were not accepted on Connect to the airport, only on HEx.  I pointed out
that it said precisely the opposite on all TfL literature.  I reported
the incident to LU and the HEx/Connect desk at the airport.
-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Neil Williams wrote:

> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 01:59:57 GMT, Chris Tolley 
> wrote:
>
>> "This thing is a passenger train. Think of it as a stretch Limo,
>> only longer."
>
> Probably a suitable response.  The Connect units are spartan but
> reasonably comfortable, and as usual with German high standards of
> build quality, but the HEx units are (and look) very nice indeed.


Spartan?  Oh, you mean they don't have a bloody TV showing adverts and
news. But I found the Class 360's ride on Connect better than the 332 on
HEx and the air conditioning was better too.  If only they'd switch the
PA off ...
-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 23:01:43 GMT, "Richard J."
 wrote:


>My Freedom Pass was accepted except by one very aggressive guard, or
>whatever they're called, on Connect who said "I know what I'm talking
>about" and that he'd checked with his supervisor and that Travelcards
>were not accepted on Connect to the airport, only on HEx.  I pointed out
>that it said precisely the opposite on all TfL literature.  


All the promotional literature I encountered said that Travelcards
were valid on HEx from London, and Connect from *Hayes and
Harlington*.  While that is not normal railway practice, perhaps the
old chestnut of "you need to get off at the changeover station" was
rearing its ugly head, with HEx/Connect not falling under normal
railway rules.

I think I may have encountered the same one - but he was perfectly
civil with me and "let me off" - probably depends on how you make the
approach...

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 23:14:15 GMT, "Richard J."
 wrote:


>Spartan?  Oh, you mean they don't have a bloody TV showing adverts and
>news.


No, just the hard seats, 2+3 seating and lots of white plastic.  Not a
*problem* as such, just more basic than the stylish mood-lit HEx
interior with the soft, generously spaced seating in 2+2 formation.


> But I found the Class 360's ride on Connect better than the 332 on
>HEx and the air conditioning was better too. 


The units themselves are of the highest build quality I have ever seen
in the UK.  Given this, I'd be not in the least bit disappointed if
every stock order in the future came from Siemens.

The *only* things I'd criticise about Desiros that don't appear to be
the end user's fault (e.g. PA programming) are:-
- Windows adjacent to doors are a bit narrow (which isn't necessary
because of plug doors).
- The use of flipdot displays in this day and age.  They won't last,
as they never do.  Why not yellow LED like everyone else uses?


> If only they'd switch the
>PA off ...


Quite.  Is it *really* necessary to say "You're stuffed now", or words
to that effect, to those who have no tickets?  At *every* stop?

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Neil Williams wrote:


> > If only they'd switch the
> >PA off ...
>
> Quite.  Is it *really* necessary to say "You're stuffed now", or words
> to that effect, to those who have no tickets?  At *every* stop?



Seconded, thirded, whatever.


Henry Law ranted about close spaced stations on West Coastway stoppers
which I don't find to be an issue - but Hex Connect is bloody awful.
That 30 second or so pause between every announcement is the worst.
Just as you think the thing has shut up it goes off again. Would not be
so bad if they got it all over with in one hit at each shack.

Is there not some research that is supposed to show that people shut
off and do not listen when bombarded with too much off this ?


--
Nick

Welcome to ripoff Britain folks.

Over the weekend at Paddington unwitting passengers for Heathrow were
still being sold £14 singles certainly at the ticket machines. NOWHERE
were there any signs warning that a 1-6 zone Travelcard at £6 would
suffice. I think that this is tantamount to deliberate and blatant
theft.

On Sunday I warned a few tourists not to purchase a £14 ticket when a
£6 ticket would do. They were extremelly grateful. Its a lot of money
to save for a family.

Why doesn't the BAA concentrate on its forte of running overpriced
hypermarkets with the sideline of providing airport services, rather
than also trying to run a few equally expensive rail services with
aggressive staff?

CJB.

P.S. I've stopped travelling with Connect - the air con. is too cold, I
can't travel in peace and quiet with all those damned inane LOUD
announcements, and the RPI's are overly aggressive. Oh and the damned
trains always stop miles up the platform at Hayes so everyone has to
run up the platform to board the damned thing. Even Thames used to run
a better service than this one.

On 8 Aug 2005 01:18:55 -0700, D7666 wrote in
, seen in
uk.railway:

[Excessive PA use] 

> Is there not some research that is supposed to show that people shut
> off and do not listen when bombarded with too much off this ?


Dunno about formal research, but back in BR days we were always told
that you had 45 seconds maximum to grab and retain pax attention
during a PA announcement (the "45 second rule") and even then pax
would switch off if you went on too long, regardless of the content of
the announcement. 
PA announcements should be Accurate, Brief and Concise.

Which is why the stupid scripted announcements you hear on IC-TOCs
(such as GNER's never-ending list of invalid tickets) are pointless -
few people pay the slightest attention.


Presumably BR must have done some research to enable them to tell us
about the "45 second rule".

-- 
Ross, Lincoln, UK

We're *not* afraid
http://www.werenotafraid.com

> Henry Law ranted about close spaced stations on West Coastway stoppers
> which I don't find to be an issue - but Hex Connect is bloody awful.
> That 30 second or so pause between every announcement is the worst.
> Just as you think the thing has shut up it goes off again. Would not be
> so bad if they got it all over with in one hit at each shack.

> Is there not some research that is supposed to show that people shut
> off and do not listen when bombarded with too much off this ?


Unfortunately this seems to be the Siemens standard for all their units
including the SWT Desiros. It is highly irritating.

David

Neil Williams wrote:

> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 23:01:43 GMT, "Richard J."
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>My Freedom Pass was accepted except by one very aggressive guard, or
>>whatever they're called, on Connect who said "I know what I'm talking
>>about" and that he'd checked with his supervisor and that Travelcards
>>were not accepted on Connect to the airport, only on HEx.  I pointed out
>>that it said precisely the opposite on all TfL literature.  
> 
> 
> All the promotional literature I encountered said that Travelcards
> were valid on HEx from London, and Connect from *Hayes and
> Harlington*.  While that is not normal railway practice, perhaps the
> old chestnut of "you need to get off at the changeover station" was
> rearing its ugly head, with HEx/Connect not falling under normal
> railway rules.
> 
> I think I may have encountered the same one - but he was perfectly
> civil with me and "let me off" - probably depends on how you make the
> approach...
> 
> Neil
> 


I *might* be missing something (having never travelled on Heathrow 
Connect) but I thought Travelcards were valid on the Paddington to Hayes 
and Harlington section under normal circumstances? If not, then the 
residents of Hanwell etc don't have a great deal of choice when it comes 
to Travelcard travel!

Cheers,

Steve M

gwr4090 wrote:


>>Henry Law ranted about close spaced stations on West Coastway stoppers
>>which I don't find to be an issue - but Hex Connect is bloody awful.
>>That 30 second or so pause between every announcement is the worst.
>>Just as you think the thing has shut up it goes off again. Would not be
>>so bad if they got it all over with in one hit at each shack.
> 
> 
>>Is there not some research that is supposed to show that people shut
>>off and do not listen when bombarded with too much off this ?
> 
> 
> Unfortunately this seems to be the Siemens standard for all their units
> including the SWT Desiros. It is highly irritating.
> 
> David
> 


This happens on Southern Electrostars from time to time as well. 
However, it seems pretty random as to when you're going to get the huge 
barrage of announcements one after the other - are these controlled by a 
human?

On leaving Clapham Junction on the 1329 to East Grinstead on Saturday, 
we had:

"This is the Southern Electrostar service to xxxx"
"We will be calling at..."
"The next station is..."
"Please remember to keep all your belongings with you etc"
"This train is fitted with smoke detectors in the toilets. Please etc"
"If you are travelling in 1st Class, Please make sure you have a 1st 
class ticket... (or we'll fine you)"
"We are now approaching East Croydon"

I think there was another one too but either way AAARRRGGHHH!!!

Cheers,

Steve M

Neil Williams wrote:

> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 23:01:43 GMT, "Richard J."
>  wrote:
>
>> My Freedom Pass was accepted except by one very aggressive guard,
>> or whatever they're called, on Connect who said "I know what I'm
>> talking about" and that he'd checked with his supervisor and that
>> Travelcards were not accepted on Connect to the airport, only on
>> HEx.  I pointed out that it said precisely the opposite on all TfL
>> literature.
>
> All the promotional literature I encountered said that Travelcards
> were valid on HEx from London, and Connect from *Hayes and
> Harlington*.


What promotional literature was that?  The LU leaflets I saw either
mentioned HEx and Connect without specifying start points or referred to
Connect from Ealing Broadway.


> While that is not normal railway practice, perhaps the
> old chestnut of "you need to get off at the changeover station" was
> rearing its ugly head, with HEx/Connect not falling under normal
> railway rules.
>
> I think I may have encountered the same one - but he was perfectly
> civil with me and "let me off" - probably depends on how you make
> the approach...


Agreed, but I had to be fairly aggressive to get him to back off from
trying to charge an innocent holidaymaker on her way to the airport.
-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 21:02:27 +0100, Steve M 
wrote:


>I *might* be missing something (having never travelled on Heathrow 
>Connect) but I thought Travelcards were valid on the Paddington to Hayes 
>and Harlington section under normal circumstances? 


Yes, they are.  The situation in question was travel through from
London via Connect to Heathrow 123, which might be considered
differently under the circumstances, especially as you're not really
supposed to travel from London to Heathrow 123 via the Connect at all,
as it's not advertised for such travel.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Neil Williams wrote:

> On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 21:02:27 +0100, Steve M
>  wrote:
>
>> I *might* be missing something (having never travelled on Heathrow
>> Connect) but I thought Travelcards were valid on the Paddington to
>> Hayes and Harlington section under normal circumstances?
>
> Yes, they are.  The situation in question was travel through from
> London via Connect to Heathrow 123, which might be considered
> differently under the circumstances, especially as you're not really
> supposed to travel from London to Heathrow 123 via the Connect at
> all, as it's not advertised for such travel.


Well, yes, the departure screens at Paddington say its destination is
Hayes & Harlington (though it shows the operator as Heathrow Connect).
But the train shows "Heathrow Airport" on the rear display facing the
concourse, and when you get on board both the internal displays and the
PA announce the destination as Heathrow Airport.  FGWL also show it as
going to the airport in their online timetable (and show the operator as
FGWL).  So "not advertised for such travel" is not quite fair.
-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 22:39:57 GMT, wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
Williams) wrote:



>Yes, they are.  The situation in question was travel through from
>London via Connect to Heathrow 123, which might be considered
>differently under the circumstances, especially as you're not really
>supposed to travel from London to Heathrow 123 via the Connect at all,
>as it's not advertised for such travel.


Not supposed to travel from London to Heathrow by Connect? Isn't there
a London-Heathrow fare available specifically for travel on Connect?

In message , at 
03:24:05 on Mon, 8 Aug 2005, CJB  
remarked:

>Why doesn't the BAA concentrate on its forte of running overpriced
>hypermarkets with the sideline of providing airport services, rather
>than also trying to run a few equally expensive rail services with
>aggressive staff?


The trains are required to reduce the number of road journeys to the 
airport, in order to comply with planning restrictions. The price is 
sufficient for the trains to break even, while being cheaper than a taxi 
and less hassle (as a kiss-and-ride at Paddington) than a kiss-and-ride 
at Heathrow.

The tube, although much cheaper, has failed to get that class of 
traveller off the roads, so the HEx is the answer. If it's not aimed at 
your market, ignore it, as I'm sure you probably also ignore the front 
half of most aircraft.
-- 
Roland Perry

"Steve M"  wrote in message 
news:3lpsfoF13sjuoU1@individual.net...

> gwr4090 wrote:
>
>>>Henry Law ranted about close spaced stations on West Coastway stoppers
>>>which I don't find to be an issue - but Hex Connect is bloody awful.
>>>That 30 second or so pause between every announcement is the worst.
>>>Just as you think the thing has shut up it goes off again. Would not be
>>>so bad if they got it all over with in one hit at each shack.
>>
>>
>>>Is there not some research that is supposed to show that people shut
>>>off and do not listen when bombarded with too much off this ?
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately this seems to be the Siemens standard for all their units
>> including the SWT Desiros. It is highly irritating.
>>
>> David
>>
>
> This happens on Southern Electrostars from time to time as well. However, 
> it seems pretty random as to when you're going to get the huge barrage of 
> announcements one after the other - are these controlled by a human?
>
> On leaving Clapham Junction on the 1329 to East Grinstead on Saturday, we 
> had:
>
> "This is the Southern Electrostar service to xxxx"
> "We will be calling at..."
> "The next station is..."
> "Please remember to keep all your belongings with you etc"
> "This train is fitted with smoke detectors in the toilets. Please etc"
> "If you are travelling in 1st Class, Please make sure you have a 1st class 
> ticket... (or we'll fine you)"
> "We are now approaching East Croydon"


I just love the way it syncs with the scrolling message on the
display (well it does on SWT) :-(

tim

On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:16:03 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)"
 wrote:


>I just love the way it syncs with the scrolling message on the
>display (well it does on SWT) :-(


That's what causes the annoying pauses.  It's quicker to say it than
scroll it, it would seem.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

"asdf" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message 
news:30pff1luvk76p9mibv40n5vl4r3c9ud7hb@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 22:39:57 GMT, wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
> Williams) wrote:
>
>
>>Yes, they are.  The situation in question was travel through from
>>London via Connect to Heathrow 123, which might be considered
>>differently under the circumstances, especially as you're not really
>>supposed to travel from London to Heathrow 123 via the Connect at all,
>>as it's not advertised for such travel.
>
> Not supposed to travel from London to Heathrow by Connect? Isn't there
> a London-Heathrow fare available specifically for travel on Connect?


dunno, last time this was discussed I don't recall an answer.

tim

tim (moved to sweden) wrote:


> > Not supposed to travel from London to Heathrow by Connect? Isn't there
> > a London-Heathrow fare available specifically for travel on Connect?
>
> dunno, last time this was discussed I don't recall an answer.
>


From
http://atoc.org/traveltrade/manuals/raillinks/sectionaairportlinks.pdf

********************************
Destination: Heathrow Airport
Interchange station: Hayes & Harlington
Local rail service calling at Ealing Broadway, West Ealing,
Hanwell, Southall, Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow
Terminals 1-2-3
FARES
For routes which are not valid via London, through fares are shown in
section C of the NFM.
For fares to/from London Terminals, use Heathrow Express fares.
For other flows and routes valid via London, through tickets may be
issued by adding the add-on amounts to all fares shown in Section C of
the NFM to Hayes & Harlington.

Add-on amounts
Adult single £12.00, Child single £6.00
Adult return £24.00, Child return £12.00
Fares are also available in the reverse direction.
********************************

The add-ons are best avoided, as a single from Hayes & Harlington to
Heathrow is only 6 pounds.  A single from London Terminals to Hayes &
Harlington is 3.50 so presumably you can pay a 6 pounds supplement to
go from Hayes & Harlington to Heathrow, a total of 9.50 which is
cheaper than Heathrow Express UNLESS Heathrow Connect do not observe
the standard National Rail rule of being able to combine two tickets.

http://www.heathrowconnect.com/default.aspx?pageid=44

states that a single from London Paddington to Heathrow via Heathrow
Connect is 9.50.