Hope someone can help clarify this confusing matter

I'm returning on an Open ticket with GNER on Monday.  On the return
journey, I travelled from Kings Cross to Peterborough on Friday, where
I have broken my journey.

My Open ticket is valid to Doncaster.  The train I want to get on
Monday (with colleauges on) is first stop York.  However, I already
have a monthly season ticket from York to Newcastle.

I know different conditions apply if you are travelling using both a
rail ticket and a season ticket.  In this case, my Open ticket is valid
to Doncaster (where the train does not call) and my season ticket
starts from York.

So, when I goto Peterborough on Monday can I ask for a single from
Doncaster to York and use the three tickets (Peterborough to Doncaster,
Doncaster to York and York to Newcastle season) for the journey.  If I
recall, if using the above combination, the train does not have to stop
at a mid-point (Doncaster) as long as I have tickets to cover the
entire journey.

Any help would be gratefully received.

"Oxford Blue"  wrote

>
> So, when I goto Peterborough on Monday can I ask for a single from
> Doncaster to York and use the three tickets (Peterborough to Doncaster,
> Doncaster to York and York to Newcastle season) for the journey.  If I
> recall, if using the above combination, the train does not have to stop
> at a mid-point (Doncaster) as long as I have tickets to cover the
> entire journey.
>

AIUI the train has to stop at teh station where you change from one ticket
to another, unless you're changing between an ordinary ticket and a season
ticket there. So you'd be OK if your season ticket was from Doncaster, but
not changing between two singles there. But can't you excess your Kings
Cross - Doncaster return half to York?

Peter

Peter Masson wrote:

> "Oxford Blue"  wrote
> >
> > So, when I goto Peterborough on Monday can I ask for a single from
> > Doncaster to York and use the three tickets (Peterborough to Doncaster,
> > Doncaster to York and York to Newcastle season) for the journey.  If I
> > recall, if using the above combination, the train does not have to stop
> > at a mid-point (Doncaster) as long as I have tickets to cover the
> > entire journey.
> >
> AIUI the train has to stop at teh station where you change from one ticket
> to another, unless you're changing between an ordinary ticket and a season
> ticket there. So you'd be OK if your season ticket was from Doncaster, but
> not changing between two singles there. But can't you excess your Kings
> Cross - Doncaster return half to York?


That's a thought - but since I broke my return journey at Peterborough,
can I still effectively ask for the return half to be excessed to York,
at Peterborough ticket office?

Yes, you would need to get the ticket excessed to York.

But as this is your return journey you must be using the RTN portion of
a Doncaster-London ticket. I recall someone here saying you couldn't
excess the RTN portion of a ticket to beyond your original starting
point (in this case Doncaster), but I am not sure if is correct or not.

The implication was that you can extend a ticket further beyond your
original destination but not beyond your originating station.

But can anyone confirm if that's true or not?

"Oxford Blue"  wrote in message 
news:1123338300.344260.271350@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> Peter Masson wrote:
>> "Oxford Blue"  wrote
>> >
>> > So, when I goto Peterborough on Monday can I ask for a single from
>> > Doncaster to York and use the three tickets (Peterborough to Doncaster,
>> > Doncaster to York and York to Newcastle season) for the journey.  If I
>> > recall, if using the above combination, the train does not have to stop
>> > at a mid-point (Doncaster) as long as I have tickets to cover the
>> > entire journey.
>> >
>> AIUI the train has to stop at teh station where you change from one 
>> ticket
>> to another, unless you're changing between an ordinary ticket and a 
>> season
>> ticket there. So you'd be OK if your season ticket was from Doncaster, 
>> but
>> not changing between two singles there. But can't you excess your Kings
>> Cross - Doncaster return half to York?
>
> That's a thought - but since I broke my return journey at Peterborough,
> can I still effectively ask for the return half to be excessed to York,
> at Peterborough ticket office?
>


The easiest thing would be just get ont he train with the ticket to 
doncaster, IF you get your ticket checked just explain you are now returnign 
the York, and wish to purchase a single form doncaster to York, which the 
guard will sell you. I always understood you can combine tickets as long as 
the TOC operated  services from the station you are combining the tickets 
at. i.e if you had a single from london to Huntingdon and a single from 
Huntingdon to Peterborough, it would not be valid on a GNER service from 
Kings cross to Peterbrough,  however a single from London to Stevenage and a 
Stevenage to Peterborough Single on a service that was not stopping at 
Stevenage WAS valid. Have you check the NCC?

Lee

REDSKINS wrote:

> The easiest thing would be just get ont he train with the ticket to 
> doncaster, IF you get your ticket checked just explain you are now returnign 
> the York, and wish to purchase a single form doncaster to York, which the 
> guard will sell you. I always understood you can combine tickets as long as 
> the TOC operated  services from the station you are combining the tickets 
> at.


No, that's not correct (although I don't know if that used to be the 
case though).  You can only swap from two tickets (non-seasons) if the 
train stops at the relevant station.


> i.e if you had a single from london to Huntingdon and a single from 
> Huntingdon to Peterborough, it would not be valid on a GNER service from 
> Kings cross to Peterbrough,  

Correct.

> however a single from London to Stevenage and a 
> Stevenage to Peterborough Single on a service that was not stopping at 
> Stevenage WAS valid.


Not valid.  The train has to stop at Stevenage for you to be able to 
swap tickets.

"Mark Morton"  wrote in message 
news:3lkh1aFvoa35U1@individual.net...

> REDSKINS wrote:
>> The easiest thing would be just get ont he train with the ticket to 
>> doncaster, IF you get your ticket checked just explain you are now 
>> returnign the York, and wish to purchase a single form doncaster to York, 
>> which the guard will sell you. I always understood you can combine 
>> tickets as long as the TOC operated  services from the station you are 
>> combining the tickets at.
>
> No, that's not correct (although I don't know if that used to be the case 
> though).  You can only swap from two tickets (non-seasons) if the train 
> stops at the relevant station.
>
>> i.e if you had a single from london to Huntingdon and a single from 
>> Huntingdon to Peterborough, it would not be valid on a GNER service from 
>> Kings cross to Peterbrough,
>
> Correct.
>
>> however a single from London to Stevenage and a Stevenage to Peterborough 
>> Single on a service that was not stopping at Stevenage WAS valid.
>
> Not valid.  The train has to stop at Stevenage for you to be able to swap 
> tickets.


cut from the NCC.
17. A combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets to travel on one train journey as long as 
together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

  1.. they are zonal tickets;
  2.. the train you are on calls at the station where you change from one 
ticket to another; or
  3.. one of the tickets is a season ticket, which for this purpose does not 
include season tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger 
transport executive or local authority, and the other ticket(s) is/are not. 
You must comply with any restriction of use to a particular Train Company's 
trains shown on the tickets (see Condition 10).
If you do not comply with these conditions you will be treated as having 
joined the train without a valid ticket and Condition 7 or 8 (whichever is 
relevant) will apply either to the journey, or from the last station where 
the train called at which your tickets were valid to travel on the same 
train.



My apolgies, it used to be that as long as the TOC had services form the 
station you were combining them at it was valid, So what would happen if you 
had a London to stevenage and a stevenage to peterborough ticket and 
travelled on a fast WAGN kings cross to peterbrough service, first stop St 
Neots, This would be crazy as the TOC gets revenue from both tickets and 
hence should be allowed to combine them on there services. understandably if 
you were trying to use a GNER service and combining tickets at Huntingdon as 
GNER dont get any revenue from either ticket sale.

The worrying thing is that no-one can answer the question of whether an
excess is possible, because no-one seems to understands excess fares
fully.

It appears not to be available on the ATOC website (it says to consult
"retail manual section 1") which I cannot find, and I guess they wish
to keep secret.

The OP would need an excess to do what he wants to do, but the question
is: can such an excess be purchased?

In message <tf7Je.13123$9K3.7337@newsfe7-win.ntli.net>, at 18:24:25 on 
Sat, 6 Aug 2005, REDSKINS  remarked:

>The easiest thing would be just get ont he train with the ticket to
>doncaster, IF you get your ticket checked just explain you are now returnign
>the York, and wish to purchase a single form doncaster to York, which the
>guard will sell you.


Previous anecdotes suggest that GNER will take the official line and 
charge you for a Peterborough to York single.


>I always understood you can combine tickets as long as
>the TOC operated  services from the station you are combining the tickets
>at. i.e if you had a single from london to Huntingdon and a single from
>Huntingdon to Peterborough, it would not be valid on a GNER service from
>Kings cross to Peterbrough,  however a single from London to Stevenage and a
>Stevenage to Peterborough Single on a service that was not stopping at
>Stevenage WAS valid.


Your understanding is out of date. The train must either stop at the 
station concerned, or one ticket must be a season [1]. The OP's season 
ticket from York is a red herring, as we are discussing a 
Peterborough/York journey.

The rule you describe is what I think the *previous* scheme was, before 
he current rule was introduced. I don't know exactly when, but maybe 3-4 
years ago?

Perhaps he should reschedule his trip and catch a train that stops at 
Doncaster.

[1] And no requirement for the ToC to service the station - so a London 
to Huntingdon season plus a Huntingdon to Peterborough single would be 
OK on a GNER.
-- 
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:


> Previous anecdotes suggest that GNER will take the official line and
> charge you for a Peterborough to York single.


Yes you're right, GNER are very strict on tickets.


> Perhaps he should reschedule his trip and catch a train that stops at
> Doncaster.
>


If he can't excess the ticket that is what he will have to do. Looking
at the GNER TT (
http://gner.co.uk/GNER/Traintimes/CurrentTimetable/Weekdays_North_1.htm
) there should be some alternatives.

(Note that there are Virgin Trains from Doncaster to York at 07.49,
08.25, 09.23, 10.17 taking approx 22 minutes)

REDSKINS wrote:

> So what would happen if you
> had a London to stevenage and a stevenage to peterborough ticket and
> travelled on a fast WAGN kings cross to peterbrough service, first stop St
> Neots, This would be crazy as the TOC gets revenue from both tickets and
> hence should be allowed to combine them on there services.


Strictly speaking they can be charged SOS London to St Neots! Which is
very harsh, but that's the rules unfortunately.

It's designed to discourage people buying combinations of tickets to
make journeys cheaper. It doesn't discourage me though - I'll find
trains that do call!

Combinations of tickets can be cheaper because longer distance
passengers are penalised with higher fares.

Wouldn't Oxford Blue's ticket be valid on the wording of the NCoC- 17.
A COMBINATION of tickets
You may use TWO OR MORE TICKETS to travel on ONE TRAIN JOURNEY as long
as
together they COVER THE ENTIRE JOURNEY and one of the FOLLOWING
APPLIES:

1.. they are zonal tickets;
  2.. the train you are on calls at the station where you change from
one
ticket to another; or
  3.. one of the tickets is a SEASON TICKET, which for this purpose
does not
include season tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger

transport executive or local authority, and the other ticket(s) is/are
not.
You must comply with any restriction of use to a particular Train
Company's
trains shown on the tickets (see Condition 10).
If you do not comply with these conditions you will be treated as
having
joined the train without a valid ticket and Condition 7 or 8 (whichever
is
relevant) will apply either to the journey, or from the last station
where
the train called at which your tickets were valid to travel on the same

train.

He is using a combination of more than two tickets. He is travelling on
one train journey- Peterborugh to Newcastle. He has tickets that cover
the entire journey. And one of those following apply he has a season
ticket.

Can someone explain if that is not valid?

joy54joy@gmail.com wrote:

> Wouldn't Oxford Blue's ticket be valid on the wording of the NCoC- 17.
> A COMBINATION of tickets
> You may use TWO OR MORE TICKETS to travel on ONE TRAIN JOURNEY as long
> as
> together they COVER THE ENTIRE JOURNEY and one of the FOLLOWING
> APPLIES:
> 
> 1.. they are zonal tickets;
>   2.. the train you are on calls at the station where you change from
> one
> ticket to another; or
>   3.. one of the tickets is a SEASON TICKET, which for this purpose
> does not
> include season tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger
> 
> transport executive or local authority, and the other ticket(s) is/are
> not.
> You must comply with any restriction of use to a particular Train
> Company's
> trains shown on the tickets (see Condition 10).
> If you do not comply with these conditions you will be treated as
> having
> joined the train without a valid ticket and Condition 7 or 8 (whichever
> is
> relevant) will apply either to the journey, or from the last station
> where
> the train called at which your tickets were valid to travel on the same
> 
> train.
> 
> He is using a combination of more than two tickets. He is travelling on
> one train journey- Peterborugh to Newcastle. He has tickets that cover
> the entire journey. And one of those following apply he has a season
> ticket.
> 
> Can someone explain if that is not valid?


That's a very good point.  One of his three tickets is a season ticket. 
    Therefore he should be fine (although his entire journey may be 
ruined by the argument he'll have to have with the GNER gripper!).

In message <in8Je.17212$Aw4.15375@newsfe5-win.ntli.net>, at 19:41:02 on 
Sat, 6 Aug 2005, REDSKINS  remarked:

>So what would happen if you
>had a London to stevenage and a stevenage to peterborough ticket and
>travelled on a fast WAGN kings cross to peterbrough service, first stop St
>Neots, This would be crazy as the TOC gets revenue from both tickets and
>hence should be allowed to combine them on there services.


In that case both WAGN and GNER will be getting some revenue from the 
tickets, but it's not allowed to travel on either of their trains 
(unless they stop at Stevenage).

But take the current rule and someone with a London-Huntingdon season 
who buys a Huntingdon-Peterborough single. Almost all the revenue will 
go to WAGN, I expect, and yet they can get a GNER! Under the old rule 
they couldn't have done as GNER don't service Huntingdon.
-- 
Roland Perry

In message , at 
13:57:24 on Sat, 6 Aug 2005, joy54joy@gmail.com remarked:

>Wouldn't Oxford Blue's ticket be valid on the wording of the NCoC- 17.
>A COMBINATION of tickets
>You may use TWO OR MORE TICKETS to travel on ONE TRAIN JOURNEY as long
>as
>together they COVER THE ENTIRE JOURNEY and one of the FOLLOWING
>APPLIES:
>
>1.. they are zonal tickets;
>  2.. the train you are on calls at the station where you change from
>one
>ticket to another; or
>  3.. one of the tickets is a SEASON TICKET, which for this purpose
>does not
>include season tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger


OK, on the basis that the rule says "Two or more" (I hadn't fully 
comprehended that before) then he should be alright. But he should buy 
the Doncaster-York ticket at Peterborough, rather than on the train, to 
be on the safe side.
-- 
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

> In message , at
> 13:57:24 on Sat, 6 Aug 2005, joy54joy@gmail.com remarked:
> >Wouldn't Oxford Blue's ticket be valid on the wording of the NCoC- 17.
> >A COMBINATION of tickets
> >You may use TWO OR MORE TICKETS to travel on ONE TRAIN JOURNEY as long
> >as
> >together they COVER THE ENTIRE JOURNEY and one of the FOLLOWING
> >APPLIES:
> >
> >1.. they are zonal tickets;
> >  2.. the train you are on calls at the station where you change from
> >one
> >ticket to another; or
> >  3.. one of the tickets is a SEASON TICKET, which for this purpose
> >does not
> >include season tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger
>
> OK, on the basis that the rule says "Two or more" (I hadn't fully
> comprehended that before) then he should be alright. But he should buy
> the Doncaster-York ticket at Peterborough, rather than on the train, to
> be on the safe side.


Thanks to all of those who replied.  Ideally, I wanted to join the
08:44 train at Peterborough non-stop to York tomorrow as I have to meet
colleagues on board.  Should I therefore buy a single from Doncaster to
York at Peterborough, and then am I likely to be ok on board if I
explain my situation?  As you say, GNER are very strict on ticketing!

In message , at 
04:34:50 on Sun, 7 Aug 2005, Oxford Blue  
remarked:

>deally, I wanted to join the
>08:44 train at Peterborough non-stop to York tomorrow as I have to meet
>colleagues on board.  Should I therefore buy a single from Doncaster to
>York at Peterborough, and then am I likely to be ok on board if I
>explain my situation?  As you say, GNER are very strict on ticketing!


What I would do is print out the relevant section of the rules (sorry, 
no url immediately to hand) which says that it's a combination of "two 
or more tickets... one a season", and then go to the Travel Centre [not 
ticket office] part of Peterborough station and ask them to confirm it 
will be OK. I have found them to be very helpful, when they've agreed 
with me (but unhelpful when they haven't...)

You can then buy the necessary ticket, probably from them, but also from 
the ticket desk or a nearby machine. So when you meet a gripper you have 
both the printed evidence, and the advice of the Travel Centre to go on.
-- 
Roland Perry

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 12:57:48 +0100, Roland Perry 
wrote:


>What I would do is print out the relevant section of the rules (sorry, 
>no url immediately to hand) which says that it's a combination of "two 
>or more tickets... one a season", and then go to the Travel Centre [not 
>ticket office] part of Peterborough station and ask them to confirm it 
>will be OK. I have found them to be very helpful, when they've agreed 
>with me (but unhelpful when they haven't...)


Either that, or they'll have the rules changed in their favour.

A disgraceful organisation with no respect for the system under which
they are supposed to operate.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

In message , at 12:38:24 on Sun, 7 Aug 
2005, Neil Williams  remarked:

>>What I would do is print out the relevant section of the rules (sorry,
>>no url immediately to hand) which says that it's a combination of "two
>>or more tickets... one a season", and then go to the Travel Centre [not
>>ticket office] part of Peterborough station and ask them to confirm it
>>will be OK. I have found them to be very helpful, when they've agreed
>>with me (but unhelpful when they haven't...)
>
>Either that, or they'll have the rules changed in their favour.
>
>A disgraceful organisation with no respect for the system under which
>they are supposed to operate.


If they do it again, then hopefully it will be done in sufficient glare 
of publicity that people will notice.
-- 
Roland Perry

Neil Williams wrote:

> Either that, or they'll have the rules changed in their favour.


I think that is the most likely eventuality to be honest. Although
legally I am not sure how they can get away with it.

On a strict interpretation of the rules, one could have (for example),
a London to Welwyn season, and Welwyn to Huntingdon, Huntingdon to
Retford, Retford to Thirsk, Thirsk to Morpeth, Morpeth to Chathil,
Chathil to Drem and Drem to Edinburgh tickets, and use them on, say,
the Highland Chieftain.(OK this example is extreme and probably useless
but does illustrate the point).

"Yorkie" wrote


> one could have (for example), ...
> Chathil to Drem ... tickets,


I've often wondered whether a ticket from Chathill to Drem would provide a
way of saving money on a journey between (say) Alnmouth and Edinburgh.  Has
anyone tried it?  Does such a ticket exist?

John Salmon wrote:

> "Yorkie" wrote
> 
>>one could have (for example), ...
>>Chathil to Drem ... tickets,
> 
> I've often wondered whether a ticket from Chathill to Drem would provide a
> way of saving money on a journey between (say) Alnmouth and Edinburgh.  Has
> anyone tried it?  Does such a ticket exist?


Chathill-Drem Saver Return: 44.00
Alnmouth-Edinburgh Save Return: 25.20

Bit of a difference!

"Mark Morton" wrote


> Chathill-Drem Saver Return: 44.00
> Alnmouth-Edinburgh Save Return: 25.20
>
> Bit of a difference!


Thanks.  I wonder if they've ever sold the 44 ticket!