Hi

I was wondering if anyone knew what they are going to do with the
section of the CTRL built over the old Gravesend west branch after the
CTRL service migrates to St Pancras in 2007.

wrote in message
news:1123241845.217618.35410@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Hi
>
> I was wondering if anyone knew what they are going to do with the
> section of the CTRL built over the old Gravesend west branch after the
> CTRL service migrates to St Pancras in 2007.
>

I can't see it being retained, even for emergency use. However, it may
remain in railway ownership long term. AIUI the power feed from Springhead
CEGB substation to the Network Rail substation at Fawkham Junction runs
along the railway.

Peter

Interesting... If you recall the NDSR tried to get it a couple of years
ago but were turned down on the basis of the CTRL. In they were to
'straighten the bend back into the old southfleet station which is
behind a heap of spoil under the road bridge it would be useable.
Imagine that, a doule track preserved line with 25kv o/h capability.
and access to BR.

In fact, thinking further, how will stock go to/from North Pole once
its severed?

keith@wassell.net wrote:

> In fact, thinking further, how will stock go to/from North Pole once
> its severed?


It won't, as Stratford is being built.

-- 
Cheers for now,

John from Harrow, Middx

remove spamnocars to reply

keith@wassell.net wrote:

> In fact, thinking further, how will stock go to/from North Pole once
> its severed?


Until NP closes and everything goes to Temple Mills - anybosy know when
that is scheduled to happen ? - a new link has been built from
St.Pancras to the North London line as part of the current
re-development of the greater KX area. From there it is the route used
today by the units on hire to GNER - Camden, Gospel Oak, Willesden HL
and then reverse at fomer North Pole Jn.

[dcvjg8$bpp$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com]
Peter Masson  a crit :


>> I was wondering if anyone knew what they are going to do with the
>> section of the CTRL built over the old Gravesend west branch after the
>> CTRL service migrates to St Pancras in 2007.
>>
> I can't see it being retained, even for emergency use.


What about the possibility of Eurostar service to/from London Heathrow? 
Would this be done via the NLL? Or is this proposal scrapped and long 
forgotten, without any chance whatsoever of this to ever run?

"Jean-Francois Dancre"  wrote in message 
news:42f371cf$0$30180$626a14ce@news.free.fr...

> [dcvjg8$bpp$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com]
> Peter Masson  a crit :
>
>>> I was wondering if anyone knew what they are going to do with the
>>> section of the CTRL built over the old Gravesend west branch after the
>>> CTRL service migrates to St Pancras in 2007.
>>>
>> I can't see it being retained, even for emergency use.
>
> What about the possibility of Eurostar service to/from London Heathrow? 
> Would this be done via the NLL? Or is this proposal scrapped and long 
> forgotten, without any chance whatsoever of this to ever run?
>

The original idea for this was abandoned some years ago.
Brian

Peter Masson wrote:

>  wrote in message
> news:1123241845.217618.35410@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Hi
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone knew what they are going to do with the
> > section of the CTRL built over the old Gravesend west branch after the
> > CTRL service migrates to St Pancras in 2007.
> >
> I can't see it being retained, even for emergency use. However, it may
> remain in railway ownership long term. AIUI the power feed from Springhead
> CEGB substation to the Network Rail substation at Fawkham Junction runs
> along the railway.
>
> Peter


Slightly O/T but what routes would be used in the event of the closure
of part of the CTRL?

I presume that if CTRL1 was closed then trains could be routed up on
Southern
Region tracks from Folkestone to Southfleet and then onto CTRL2?

What if the CTRL2 from Southfleet to St. Pancras had to be closed,
where would the E* be routed then?

"Mizter T"  wrote

>
> Slightly O/T but what routes would be used in the event of the closure
> of part of the CTRL?
>

For a short-term closure I would expect E* to terminate at Ashford, or
Ebbsfleet if they could get there, and forward passengers on IKF trains on
the classic routes. ecs would run via the classic routes, WLL and NLL. If
there was a prolonged closure E* might run to St Pancras via the classic
routes, WLL and NLL.

I can't see any point in keeping Pepper Hill to Fawkham Junction. If trains
can get to Pepper Hill they are likely to be able to get to Ebbsfleet where
security/immigration facilities will be available, though it would be a bit
of a climbdown for E* passengers to have to trek across to Northfleet and
then get into Central London on a Networker up the Dartford Loop in the
peak.

Peter

"Peter Masson"  wrote in message 
news:dd05kp$93q$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

>
> "Mizter T"  wrote
>>
>> Slightly O/T but what routes would be used in the event of the closure
>> of part of the CTRL?
>>
> For a short-term closure I would expect E* to terminate at Ashford, or
> Ebbsfleet if they could get there, and forward passengers on IKF trains on
> the classic routes. ecs would run via the classic routes, WLL and NLL. If
> there was a prolonged closure E* might run to St Pancras via the classic
> routes, WLL and NLL.
>
> I can't see any point in keeping Pepper Hill to Fawkham Junction. If 
> trains
> can get to Pepper Hill they are likely to be able to get to Ebbsfleet 
> where
> security/immigration facilities will be available, though it would be a 
> bit
> of a climbdown for E* passengers to have to trek across to Northfleet and
> then get into Central London on a Networker up the Dartford Loop in the
> peak.
>
> Peter
>


Wasn't freight to be routed via CTRL as well? Wouldn't it be useful for 
that?

For the sake of such a short piece of line and in light of recent events, to 
close it again would be incredibly short sighted. If nothing else, CTRL 
domestics could use it to get into London in the event of a blockage at 
Ebbsfleet or in the Thames tunnel.


Dave

Peter Masson wrote:


> there was a prolonged closure E* might run to St Pancras via the classic
> routes, WLL and NLL.


Except, as I asked in the other thread on 373s, the 373s themselves are
going to lose their 750 V DC capability, so noe of that will be
possible.


--
Nick

"D7666"  wrote in message
news:1123321454.605024.61240@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> Peter Masson wrote:
>
> > there was a prolonged closure E* might run to St Pancras via the classic
> > routes, WLL and NLL.
>
> Except, as I asked in the other thread on 373s, the 373s themselves are
> going to lose their 750 V DC capability, so noe of that will be
> possible.
>
>
> --
> Nick
>

That's odd, why are E* ecs workings still sent via Tonbridge for route
knowledge retention purposes?
If E* trains for some reason have to terminate at Ashford or any other
intermediate station the last thing E* will allow is for their "airline on
wheels" passengers to be exposed to those nasty classic railway trains. They
will immediately be transferred to road transport a far cheaper alternative.
This has already been done when E* could get no further than Folkestone or
Ashford.
MJW

"M.J.Whitson"  wrote in message 
news:dd2lo7$6bv$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...

>
> "D7666"  wrote in message
> news:1123321454.605024.61240@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Peter Masson wrote:
>>
>> > there was a prolonged closure E* might run to St Pancras via the 
>> > classic
>> > routes, WLL and NLL.
>>
>> Except, as I asked in the other thread on 373s, the 373s themselves are
>> going to lose their 750 V DC capability, so noe of that will be
>> possible.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nick
>>
> That's odd, why are E* ecs workings still sent via Tonbridge for route
> knowledge retention purposes?
> If E* trains for some reason have to terminate at Ashford or any other
> intermediate station the last thing E* will allow is for their "airline on
> wheels" passengers to be exposed to those nasty classic railway trains. 
> They
> will immediately be transferred to road transport a far cheaper 
> alternative.
> This has already been done when E* could get no further than Folkestone or
> Ashford.
> MJW
>
>

They're still sent via the Maidstone/Tonbridge routes to maintain drivers' 
route knowledge, which will have to continue until CTRL2 is completed in 
2007. Perhaps one of the drivers who posts regularily here could say how 
often route knowledge has to be refreshed to allow a driver to continue to 
sign the route?
Brian

BH Williams wrote:


> 2007. Perhaps one of the drivers who posts regularily here could say how
> often route knowledge has to be refreshed to allow a driver to continue to
> sign the route?



No doubt I shall be machine gunned down in flames for this but AFAIK
the normal UK rule seems to be 6 months.

Not being rail staff I have to rely on others to update on these
matters, but I think it has been long standing at 6 months - and
Thameslink were quoting this to the public about their crews after the
recent CTRL works blockade that lasted over this period thus they had
to route refresh.

EPS may of course be different although for UK metals I do not see why
they would be.


--
Nick

D7666 wrote:

> BH Williams wrote:
> 
> 
>>2007. Perhaps one of the drivers who posts regularily here could say how
>>often route knowledge has to be refreshed to allow a driver to continue to
>>sign the route?
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt I shall be machine gunned down in flames for this but AFAIK
> the normal UK rule seems to be 6 months.
> 
> Not being rail staff I have to rely on others to update on these
> matters, but I think it has been long standing at 6 months - and
> Thameslink were quoting this to the public about their crews after the
> recent CTRL works blockade that lasted over this period thus they had
> to route refresh.
> 
> EPS may of course be different although for UK metals I do not see why
> they would be.
> 
> 
> --
> Nick
> 

It WILL be kept as an alternate back-up route. Just think how much was 
spent on it and the Shortlands box!

Chris

Chris Fribbins wrote:


> It WILL be kept as an alternate back-up route. Just think how much was
> spent on it and the Shortlands box!




Not if the third rail DC equipment is removed from 373s it won't.


Or do you know for certain this is being kept ?


The Shortlands box was never part of passenger route upgrade anyway,
that one was freight driven.


--
Nick

"M.J.Whitson"  wrote

>> That's odd, why are E* ecs workings still sent via Tonbridge 
>> for route
>> knowledge retention purposes?
>> If E* trains for some reason have to terminate at Ashford or 
>> any other
>> intermediate station the last thing E* will allow is for their 
>> "airline on
>> wheels" passengers to be exposed to those nasty classic 
>> railway trains. They
>> will immediately be transferred to road transport a far 
>> cheaper alternative.
>> This has already been done when E* could get no further than 
>> Folkestone or
>> Ashford.


"BH Williams"  wrote

> They're still sent via the Maidstone/Tonbridge routes to 
> maintain drivers' route knowledge, which will have to continue 
> until CTRL2 is completed in 2007. Perhaps one of the drivers 
> who posts regularily here could say how often route knowledge 
> has to be refreshed to allow a driver to continue to sign the 
> route?


I think it's 6 months. If I become aware of a gap of more than 6 
months, I can ask for a refresher, but in all probability, 
because we are scheduled on our roster to do the occasional 
roadlearning day, that shouldn't arise as a problem. We no longer 
bother with the old CTR2, as we're not allowed down there without 
an inspector.
Nev

D7666 wrote

>
> The Shortlands box was never part of passenger route upgrade anyway,
> that one was freight driven.


Sorry, you're wrong on that one Nick, the Shortlands project was built
to have a grade seperated junction such that the Eurostars could get a
better run into London from the Chatham lines (which they travel on
from Swanley) without having to thread their way across onto the
southern pair of lines amongst the suburban traffic. Freight was not a
consideration.

The Fawkham Junction link to Pepper Hill will be retained to allow for
the diversion of the CTRL DS stock into the Southern terminii in the
event of a blockage of section 2. Also it will be vital for maintenance
access to get engineering trains on and off the route. Also if CTRL
freight ever happens, it will also be an advantage.

I've not heard that the 373s will lose their 750V DC capability, but
once section 2 is complete, ther is no need for it. However, on a
number of occasions, 373s still operate on the DC routes when section 1
suffers from a technical glitch - a good get out of jail card.

Richard

RBCatlow@aol.com wrote:


> Sorry, you're wrong on that one Nick,

> Freight was not a
> consideration.


I shall have to take this up with the project manager on it (one of
your former colleagues) who I am pretty sure told me it was freight
driven - but for the same sort of reasons - to relieve the need to
thread freight across passenger routes.

Also, I can't understand why if it were a Eurostar driven project was
the work not started under after CTRL had been agreed. Eurostars were
already known to be  not going that way any more, but freight will.


> I've not heard that the 373s will lose their 750V DC capability, but
> once section 2 is complete, ther is no need for it.


Nor had I until I asked the question in here, as a spin off to this
thread.

It was answered that DC only 373 has been reported in Modern Railways,
so I took my response from that.

--
Nick

D7666 wrote:

> RBCatlow@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Sorry, you're wrong on that one Nick,
>
> > Freight was not a
> > consideration.
>
> I shall have to take this up with the project manager on it (one of
> your former colleagues) who I am pretty sure told me it was freight
> driven - but for the same sort of reasons - to relieve the need to
> thread freight across passenger routes.
>
> Also, I can't understand why if it were a Eurostar driven project was
> the work not started under after CTRL had been agreed. Eurostars were
> already known to be  not going that way any more, but freight will.
>
> > I've not heard that the 373s will lose their 750V DC capability, but
> > once section 2 is complete, ther is no need for it.
>
> Nor had I until I asked the question in here, as a spin off to this
> thread.
>
> It was answered that DC only 373 has been reported in Modern Railways,
> so I took my response from that.
>
> --
> Nick


Nick,

I must agree with the original poster. A colleague of mine was the guy
who designed it for NR - its prime function was to eliminate
conflicting movements when the Eurostars moved to CTRL1 from the
"traditional" route via Tonbridge.

jonathan wrote:

> D7666 wrote:
> > RBCatlow@aol.com wrote:

> I must agree with the original poster. A colleague of mine was the guy
> who designed it for NR - its prime function was to eliminate
> conflicting movements when the Eurostars moved to CTRL1 from the
> "traditional" route via Tonbridge.


OK I stand corrected then.

But did they really build that multi million £ junction *just* for the
interim period from opening of CTRL1 until opening of CTRL2 ?

--
Nick

"D7666"  wrote

(Shortlands diveunder)

But did they really build that multi million  junction *just* for the
interim period from opening of CTRL1 until opening of CTRL2 ?

It will remain useful. Kent House is the preferred route for trains into
Victoria from Chatham and beyond (although there will be fewer of these when
CTRL-DS starts), while Channel Tunnel freight will continue to run via
Maidstone East and Catford because of gauge restrictions through Penge
Tunnel (and other tunnels on the Tonbridge route).

Peter

As I said - that was its prime function. Now thats its in place I
assume that it will prove "useful" for all sorts of other traffic.

To the best of my knowledge - and I am quite happy to be corrected -
the first "public" train to use the new curve was the Hertfordshire
Railtours "CEP Salute" which ran towards the end of April 2003 - I
can't remember the exact date. There was some jubilation on the train
from the track bashes when we were raouted that way

In message  on 10 Aug
2005 00:37:12 -0700 in uk.railway, "D7666"  tapped out on the
keyboard:


> 
> But did they really build that multi million  junction *just* for the
> interim period from opening of CTRL1 until opening of CTRL2 ?


That's what they said on the literature they gave out to local residents at the
time (I used to live in Beckenham).

--
John Youles   Norwich   England   UK

Interestingly, where the link line branches off between Farningham Road
and Longfield stations, for at least the first short stretch, it is
positioned on a new track bed. The single-arch bridge which formerly
carried the Gravesend West branch is parallel with a much more modern
bridge which carries the double track. As a result, the original arched
bridge is overgrown and has had some form of barricade built on top.

"The InterCity"  wrote in message
news:1123696209.804126.205660@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Interestingly, where the link line branches off between Farningham Road
> and Longfield stations, for at least the first short stretch, it is
> positioned on a new track bed. The single-arch bridge which formerly
> carried the Gravesend West branch is parallel with a much more modern
> bridge which carries the double track. As a result, the original arched
> bridge is overgrown and has had some form of barricade built on top.
>

This was done to ease the curve were the new line leaves the Chatham Main
line at Fawkham Junction. The original idea was to remove the original
bridge, but residents just west of the bridge persuaded TPTB to retain it as
a noise barrier.

Peter

"jonathan" wrote


> To the best of my knowledge - and I am quite happy to be corrected -
> the first "public" train to use the new curve was the Hertfordshire
> Railtours "CEP Salute" which ran towards the end of April 2003 - I
> can't remember the exact date. There was some jubilation on the train
> from the track bashes when we were raouted that way


Perhaps right about the jubilation, but wrong about it being the first
public train.  I was on that tour (27th April) but had recorded in my
notebook that I travelled over the new line in both directions the previous
day.  (I'm not claiming that was the first day.)