It appears stations Ore - Winchelsea inclusive will be reduced to
effectively 'Parliamentary' status come December, with one early morning
working, a late night service, and another during the day which gives too
much time in Hastings for a shopping trip, but not long enough for a full
working day (arrives 9.36, departs 17.08). Surely one for the 'Closures
Manager' who doesn't exist?

Does Ore really attract little custom? I recall that some of the peak
Hastings - London trains did/do start back from Ore. I suppose most locals
use the bus for the short trip into Hastings.

Draft timetables at

http://www.southernrailway.com/contact_us/surveys.shtml

Will Pevensey Bay and Normans Bay still get infrequent calls from the
Hastings portion of 'via Lewes' London trains? I imagine these stations must
also be on the radar of the non-appointed Closures Manager.

Chris

"Chris Read"  wrote in message 
news:dctpk7$364$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

>
> It appears stations Ore - Winchelsea inclusive will be reduced to
> effectively 'Parliamentary' status come December, with one early morning
> working, a late night service, and another during the day which gives too
> much time in Hastings for a shopping trip, but not long enough for a full
> working day (arrives 9.36, departs 17.08). Surely one for the 'Closures
> Manager' who doesn't exist?
>
> Does Ore really attract little custom? I recall that some of the peak
> Hastings - London trains did/do start back from Ore. I suppose most locals
> use the bus for the short trip into Hastings.


I am suprised Ore is being considered for closure. Looking at the figures at 
http://www.sra.gov.uk/pubs2/performance_statistics/stat_usage/stat_usage.exc 
the number of station entries at each station on this line is

RYE          101279
HAM STREET    22655
ORE            9117
APPLEDORE      6961
THREE OAKS     2330
WINCHELSEA     2298
DOLEHAM         608

So I don't understand why Appledore is getting a moderately useful peak only 
service while Ore gets a completely useless three trains.

I can't see any real point to this anyway, it is not as if there are 125mph 
expresses to be fitted in on the line. The changes to the service only 
reduce the journey Ashford - Hastings from 46 to 40 minutes and this is 
unlikely to make any real difference to anybody.

My suspicion is that they have no intention of closing Ore and the idea is 
for there to be a large protest about Ore, after which they announce Ore 
will have a full service after all and hopefully no-one will notice the 
other three stations closing because of the fuss about Ore.

Personally what I would do is close Doleham completely, serve Three Oaks and 
Winchelsea peak only and stop all trains at the other stations.

Peter Smyth

Chris Read wrote:

> It appears stations Ore - Winchelsea inclusive will be reduced to
> effectively 'Parliamentary' status come December, with one early morning
> working, a late night service, and another during the day which gives too
> much time in Hastings for a shopping trip, but not long enough for a full
> working day (arrives 9.36, departs 17.08). Surely one for the 'Closures
> Manager' who doesn't exist?
> 
> Does Ore really attract little custom? I recall that some of the peak
> Hastings - London trains did/do start back from Ore. I suppose most locals
> use the bus for the short trip into Hastings.


Well, whenever I've been on the train between Hastings and Ore there has 
been a reasonable loading which probably justifies more than just a 
token service.

The main problem with the service is that it cuts out that part of the 
world for people who want to walk around Romney Marsh and experience the 
countryside in that lovely part of East Sussex/Kent. I see Appledore 
still just about retains a service, but I suspect that is more because 
the station is used as a passing loop than anything.

The problem with Doleham and Winchelsea is that the stations are miles 
from anywhere - Doleham doesn't really serve anywhere in particular and 
Winchelsea town is about a mile away up a very steep hill. Appledore is 
similar - it's impossible to walk between the station and the village 
without risking your neck on a winding country road (done it twice!).

The thought of being able to get from Ashford to Brighton in less than 2 
hours is quite appealing, though!

-- 
Jonathan Stott
Canterbury Weather: http://www.canterburyweather.co.uk/
Reverse my e-mail address to reply by e-mail

Chris Read wrote:

> It appears stations Ore - Winchelsea inclusive will be reduced to
> effectively 'Parliamentary' status come December, with one early morning
> working, a late night service, and another during the day which gives too
> much time in Hastings for a shopping trip, but not long enough for a full
> working day (arrives 9.36, departs 17.08). Surely one for the 'Closures
> Manager' who doesn't exist?
> 
> Does Ore really attract little custom? I recall that some of the peak
> Hastings - London trains did/do start back from Ore. I suppose most locals
> use the bus for the short trip into Hastings.
> 
> Draft timetables at
> 
> http://www.southernrailway.com/contact_us/surveys.shtml
> 
> Will Pevensey Bay and Normans Bay still get infrequent calls from the
> Hastings portion of 'via Lewes' London trains? I imagine these stations must
> also be on the radar of the non-appointed Closures Manager.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


I used to live in Rye so often travelled to Hastings by train. I 
remember as a kid (10 years or more ago now) NEVER stopping at Doleham 
and not always at Three Oaks either. Ore is a surprise there; rarely 
have I been on a train that hasn't had at least one person board/alight 
there even in the middle of winter! I suppose shaving those few minutes 
off widens the time bracket for freight to use the line or other 
specials (which are still quite frequent on that line). More than once 
I've been sat on a train in Rye or Ore station being delayed waiting for 
a class 66 to clear the single track so a benefit could be found there!

J-Me

Chris Read wrote:


> Does Ore really attract little custom? I recall that some of the peak
> Hastings - London trains did/do start back from Ore. I suppose most locals
> use the bus for the short trip into Hastings.


I think you will find that although Ore is dropped by most of the
Ashford services it does in fact get an hourly service to and from
Brighton, by one of the electrics that currently run ECS to Ore to
reverse at present?
Going back many years when Ore still had a Ticket Office I recollect
that the bulk of sales were in fact for the coastway route?

Andy A.

"Peter Smyth"  wrote in message 
news:dctsgg$nl3$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...

> Personally what I would do is close Doleham completely, serve Three Oaks 
> and Winchelsea peak only and stop all trains at the other stations.


Seems reasonable. I've certainly used Appledore - a useful railhead for 
Tenterden, Lydd and New Romney.

Judging by the way Ore station seems to get trashed by the locals on an 
hourly basis I'd close it and make 'em walk to Hastings.

wrote:


> I think you will find that although Ore is dropped by most of the
> Ashford services it does in fact get an hourly service to and from
> Brighton, by one of the electrics that currently run ECS to Ore to
> reverse at present?


Ah I see. That would make sense. Thanks for the correction.

Chris

Peter Smyth wrote:

>
> My suspicion is that they have no intention of closing Ore and the idea is
> for there to be a large protest about Ore, after which they announce Ore
> will have a full service after all and hopefully no-one will notice the
> other three stations closing because of the fuss about Ore.




Absolutely.  Propose something outrageous and then appear to "listen"
and go back on one little bit of it, while getting away with the rest.
A bit like the IKF proposal for all trains from the Ladywell line to go
to Cannon Street in the peaks.  A totally fake proposal, which they
appeared to relent on, while getting away with their core proposal of
cutting the Ashford to Tonbridge service etc.

"Chris Read"  wrote:


>
> It appears stations Ore - Winchelsea inclusive will be reduced to
> effectively 'Parliamentary' status come December, with one early morning
> working, a late night service, and another during the day which gives too
> much time in Hastings for a shopping trip, but not long enough for a full
> working day (arrives 9.36, departs 17.08). Surely one for the 'Closures
> Manager' who doesn't exist?


Bad practice to reply to your own post, so apologies.

Took a trip from Rye to Hastings, and on to Cannon Street, this afternoon.

No custom at Winchelsea or Doleham, but two off and five on at Three Oaks,
none of whom looked like enthusiasts. So on this entirely unscientific
basis, that's five people who may be lost to the railways if this proposal
goes ahead.

Chris

DERWENT Re: Brighton - Ashford express, implications
 Thu, 4 Aug 2005 21:06:20 +0100, "Peter Smyth"
 




>Personally what I would do is close Doleham completely, serve Three Oaks and 
>Winchelsea peak only and stop all trains at the other stations.
>


Just run all services as stops on request.



PRAR
-- 
<http://www.i.am/prar/> and <http://prar.fotopic.net/>
As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it. --Dick Cavett
Please reply to the newsgroup. That is why it exists.
NB Anti-spam measures in force
 - If you must email me use the Reply to address and not prar@deadspam.com

DERWENT Re: Brighton - Ashford express, implications
 Thu, 04 Aug 2005 21:17:19 +0100, Jonathan Stott  

>
>The problem with Doleham and Winchelsea is that the stations are miles 
>from anywhere - Doleham doesn't really serve anywhere in particular and 
>Winchelsea town is about a mile away up a very steep hill. Appledore is 
>similar - it's impossible to walk between the station and the village 
>without risking your neck on a winding country road (done it twice!).
>


Appledore serves the very nice hotel/pub by the station. maybe it only
warrants a Sunday service - like Berney Arms.

PRAR
-- 
<http://www.i.am/prar/> and <http://prar.fotopic.net/>
As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it. --Dick Cavett
Please reply to the newsgroup. That is why it exists.
NB Anti-spam measures in force
 - If you must email me use the Reply to address and not prar@deadspam.com

"Chris Read"  wrote

>
> No custom at Winchelsea or Doleham, but two off and five on at Three Oaks,
> none of whom looked like enthusiasts. So on this entirely unscientific
> basis, that's five people who may be lost to the railways if this proposal
> goes ahead.
>

How many might be gained to the railways if the through journey from Ashford
and Rye to Lewes and Brighton is fast enough for the train to be a realistic
alternative to driving?

Peter

Chris Read wrote:

>  wrote:
>
> > I think you will find that although Ore is dropped by most of the
> > Ashford services it does in fact get an hourly service to and from
> > Brighton, by one of the electrics that currently run ECS to Ore to
> > reverse at present?
>
> Ah I see. That would make sense. Thanks for the correction.


Andy beat me to it, Ore gets this service in compensation, and I'd
suggest it just might be a more useful one to local commuters and
shoppers than the Ashfords.

In the present timetable, the Brighton - Hastings service already runs
to Ore empty - there and return - as the turnback point (or, at least,
that is what the presetn CWN says is supposed to happen) - so there are
no additional pathing constraints.

--
Nick

"Peter Masson"  wrote in message 
news:dd0ij9$r8$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

>
> "Chris Read"  wrote
>>
>> No custom at Winchelsea or Doleham, but two off and five on at Three 
>> Oaks,
>> none of whom looked like enthusiasts. So on this entirely unscientific
>> basis, that's five people who may be lost to the railways if this 
>> proposal
>> goes ahead.
>>
> How many might be gained to the railways if the through journey from 
> Ashford
> and Rye to Lewes and Brighton is fast enough for the train to be a 
> realistic
> alternative to driving?


Having a fast service from Ashford to Brighton and serving some or all of 
the smaller stations between Ashford and Hastings are not mutually exclusive 
though. The time saved by missing out these stations is only 6 minutes which 
isn't going to make much of a difference if someone is deciding whether to 
drive or take the train.

Peter Smyth

>"Peter Masson"  wrote:

>
> "Chris Read"  wrote
> >
> > No custom at Winchelsea or Doleham, but two off and five on at Three
Oaks,
> > none of whom looked like enthusiasts. So on this entirely unscientific
> > basis, that's five people who may be lost to the railways if this
proposal
> > goes ahead.
> >
> How many might be gained to the railways if the through journey from
Ashford
> and Rye to Lewes and Brighton is fast enough for the train to be a
realistic
> alternative to driving?


So if Three Oaks, Doleham and Winchelsea are such an obstacle to this
'express' service, why not just close them? That's not a position I'd
necessarily agree with, but it is honest.

What's dishonest is going through the farce of providing an unusable service
to three stations, at the expense of the taxpayer. IIRC, all three stations
are in the marginal parliamentary constituency of Hastings and Rye, so no
civil servant will have the balls to recommend total closure.

I suspect we'll see a lot more of this over the next couple of years, as
various 'strategic reviews' hint at line and station closures, but 'Parly'
services remain because nobody (Minister, civil servant or TOC) wishes to be
seen wielding the axe.  Or does anyone believe that this Government, totally
obsessed with focus groups and the media, really have the stomach for the
greatest retrenchment in the rail network since Beeching?

Chris

On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 21:49:57 +0000 (UTC), "Chris Read"
 wrote:


>So if Three Oaks, Doleham and Winchelsea are such an obstacle to this
>'express' service, why not just close them? That's not a position I'd
>necessarily agree with, but it is honest.


Agreed.  However, what you'd then have is an all-stations stopping
service, albeit a quicker one.

That may be a cynical view, but it is just possible that retaining
these stations with a piss-poor service is actually a good marketing
tool for the main service!

It is poor, however, that the Parliamentary service provided isn't
suitable for London commuters, which is what I'd suspect the majority
market might be.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Neil Williams wrote:


> suitable for London commuters, which is what I'd suspect the majority
> market might be.



In locations where the rail station is some way from the settlement -
which certainly applies on this line - once the commuter gets in
his/her car rather than walk, they are more likely to drive to a nearby
railhead with a better service which, if you are commuting to London,
may for simplicity have a through no-change service, and not
necessarily to the nearest rail station. I'd suspect London commuers
drive to Headcorn Staplehurst or somewhere like that and probably have
always done so. Commuters to Ashford or Hastings well who knows.

T
his is one of the factors that kept west of Salisbury going, commuters
from Wiltshire, Somerset and Dorset once having got in their car, found
it better to head for Tisbury or Gillingham etc than to Frome or Castle
Cary, even if the latter were closer.



--
Nick

PRAR wrote:


> Appledore serves the very nice hotel/pub by the station. maybe it only
> warrants a Sunday service - like Berney Arms.


Indeed! All rural stations should have a pub attached, especially ones 
which I want to finish a day's walking at ;)

Ones which spring to mind aroundabouts are Wye, Appledore and Amberley :)

-- 
Jonathan Stott
Canterbury Weather: http://www.canterburyweather.co.uk/
Reverse my e-mail address to reply by e-mail

PRAR wrote:

> DERWENT Re: Brighton - Ashford express, implications
>  Thu, 4 Aug 2005 21:06:20 +0100, "Peter Smyth"
> 
>
>
>
> >Personally what I would do is close Doleham completely, serve Three Oaks and
> >Winchelsea peak only and stop all trains at the other stations.
> >
>
> Just run all services as stops on request.
>
>
>
> PRAR


The Request Stop idea was in fact trialled for 12 months (about 10
years ago I think). A number of issues arose and the trains reverted to
calling all stations the following year.
One of the problems was the sighting distances of the platforms to the
Drivers. (Coming up to Three Oaks from the Doleham direction the road
bridge all but blocks the view of the platform. In most other places
the curvature of the line and tree growth make it almost as bad).

Andy A.

"Peter Masson"  wrote in message
news:dd0ij9$r8$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

>
> "Chris Read"  wrote
> >
> > No custom at Winchelsea or Doleham, but two off and five on at Three
Oaks,
> > none of whom looked like enthusiasts. So on this entirely unscientific
> > basis, that's five people who may be lost to the railways if this
proposal
> > goes ahead.
> >
> How many might be gained to the railways if the through journey from
Ashford
> and Rye to Lewes and Brighton is fast enough for the train to be a
realistic
> alternative to driving?
>
> Peter
>
>

Unless the Polegate loop is restored there is little chance of the train
being an alternative to Ashford - Brighton journeys . Being dragged in and
out of Eastbourne adds 25 mins at least to the train journey and the
elimination of this obstacle is as likely as the sun rising in the west
tomorrow.
MJW

M.J.Whitson wrote:


> Unless the Polegate loop is restored


Why would you wish to stop serving the only large settlement between
Brighton and Hastings and deprive it of a through service to Ashford.

Drawing crow flies lines on maps just because a former railway existed
is total nonsense.

I suspect the presence of Eastbourne where it is between the two is one
of the reasons the service is being introduced - it adds catchment
area.

--
Nick

andyarmitage125@hotmail.com wrote:


> The Request Stop idea was in fact trialled for 12 months (about 10
> years ago I think). A number of issues arose and the trains reverted to
> calling all stations the following year.
> One of the problems was the sighting distances of the platforms to the
> Drivers. (Coming up to Three Oaks from the Doleham direction the road
> bridge all but blocks the view of the platform. In most other places
> the curvature of the line and tree growth make it almost as bad).


So what would be complicated about installing a push-button on the
platform, to illumiate an indicator a suitable distance down the line?
Incorporate a ten-minute time delay for switching the light off, and
issue instructions that any train running ten or more minutes late must
stop (or pass the platform slowly enough to stop).

Like most things, someone would have had to pay for it, and with
anticipated savings of only around three minutes between Hastings and
Rye no-one was that eager to pursue matters such as this, it was just
easier to go back to making the trains call all stations again. The
line has always been a long way down the list of priorities in most
things. Even the basics such as station lighting only came
comparitively recently to Three Oaks and Doleham. Up to then the only
lighting was a small oil lamp in a metal cage at each end of the
platforms to assist Drivers finding the platforms at night, I believe
the remnants of the cages still exist? After dark the Guard would often
wait until any passengers had got on the path up to the road before
leaving, as the train lights were the only illumination. (Even when it
came to things like providing staff for snow clearing at points it came
second from bottom on the priority list in the South East area!).

"D7666"  wrote in message 
news:1123360029.382870.161660@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> M.J.Whitson wrote:
>
>> Unless the Polegate loop is restored
>
> Why would you wish to stop serving the only large settlement between
> Brighton and Hastings and deprive it of a through service to Ashford.


Because someone seems to think that a through Ashford to Brighton
service is required and to achive it requires some station closures
(in everything but name).  Surely not serving one station by some
trains is better than not serving many stations by all trains.

Of course if there's no need for the A to B service in the first place,
then problem solved.

tim

Chris Read wrote:

> It appears stations Ore - Winchelsea inclusive will be reduced to
> effectively 'Parliamentary' status come December, with one early morning
> working, a late night service, and another during the day which gives too
> much time in Hastings for a shopping trip, but not long enough for a full
> working day (arrives 9.36, departs 17.08). Surely one for the 'Closures
> Manager' who doesn't exist?
> 
> Does Ore really attract little custom? I recall that some of the peak
> Hastings - London trains did/do start back from Ore. I suppose most locals
> use the bus for the short trip into Hastings.
> 
> Draft timetables at
> 
> http://www.southernrailway.com/contact_us/surveys.shtml
> 
> Will Pevensey Bay and Normans Bay still get infrequent calls from the
> Hastings portion of 'via Lewes' London trains? I imagine these stations must
> also be on the radar of the non-appointed Closures Manager.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 


I'm curious ... this may be a really stupid question but are there 
enough Turbostar 171's to run this journey? Also with them only 
consisting of 2 coaches wouldn't there be times when passenger numbers 
exceed their capacities, especially between Hastings and Brighton?

J-Me

> I'm curious ... this may be a really stupid question but are there
> enough Turbostar 171's to run this journey?


In theory, yes. Five units are required. Four to run Ashford-Brighton,
the fifth to operate the morning and evening shuttles between Ashford
and Rye.
Leaving three for Uckfield line duties, and one on maintenance.


> Also with them only consisting of 2 coaches wouldn't there be times when
> passenger numbers exceed their capacities, especially between Hastings and
> Brighton?
>
> J-Me


In the peak hours and during summer off peak quite possibly. There has
been some suggestion that the 2 car units may be strengthened at some
stage to 3-cars, although this has still to be confirmed.

Andy A.

Although described as an 'express' the only time savings appear to be 6
minutes across the Marsh and  4 minutes off Brighton-Lewes.  The time
savings on the Marsh are (it seems) to be made by cutting numerous
stops in that strange and beautiful corner of England.   If they really
are going to cut these stops wouldnt that rather undermine the work of
the The Marshlink Line Development Officer.
( http://www.southernrailway.com/pdfs/newsletters/marshsummer.pdf )?

How are the savings on the Lewes-Brighton section to be acheived?  If
the xx:34 is really going to replace the xx:24 from Brighton does this
mean the whole East Coastway timetable is to be reworked?