I'm at the planning stages of the restoration of my Spitfire 1500, this 
currently involves drinking tea and spending my hard earned on building my 
tool collection. Before I splash out on a load of stuff I'm never going to 
use can I have some input on what the 'must have' tools are for a 
restoration (I intend to go back to bare chassis).

Although I'm a believer in the maxim 'you get what you pay for' I also don't 
want to shell out unnessasarily, so some advice on where it's worth paying 
the extra for and where I can save a bit would also help.

I have the basics (sockets, screwdrivers, pliers/grips, hammers etc) and 
have also invested in a compressor. A mig welder is next on the list, so 
what else should be there ..

Thanks for looking

Jim.

"Jim"  wrote in message 
news:emtIe.600$FG3.594@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> I'm at the planning stages of the restoration of my Spitfire 1500, this 
> currently involves drinking tea and spending my hard earned on building my 
> tool collection. Before I splash out on a load of stuff I'm never going to 
> use can I have some input on what the 'must have' tools are for a 
> restoration (I intend to go back to bare chassis).
>
> Although I'm a believer in the maxim 'you get what you pay for' I also 
> don't want to shell out unnessasarily, so some advice on where it's worth 
> paying the extra for and where I can save a bit would also help.
>
> I have the basics (sockets, screwdrivers, pliers/grips, hammers etc) and 
> have also invested in a compressor. A mig welder is next on the list, so 
> what else should be there ..
>
> Thanks for looking
>
> Jim.


Everybody will have their own views on these things, but the tools used will 
vary very much on what you're doing.

Initial stripdown-
Angle grinder - on any restoration project, seized bits are going to be 
inevitable, and quite often a grinder is the quickest way off removing 
seized parts. Ideally a 4 1/2" or 5" electric one is best for this kind of 
work.
Cut-off saw - Not necessary, but often handy for the tighter corners/finer 
bits a angle grinder can't get to.

Clean up-
Wire brush for angle grinder - Ideally a twisted knot brush, which will 
quickly remove surface rust, exposing clean metal with the minimal amount 
off damage to the remaining good metal.
Needle scaler - Not necessary, but is ideal for removing excess rust from 
thick metal parts (don't use on any thin sheet metal, unless you want to do 
alot off patching!)
Sand Blaster - Certainly the best method for ensuring rust is removed, but 
will quickly highlight any areas where the metal isn't thick enough.
Drill + taps/dies - with the inevitable problem off broken/cut off fastners, 
it will be necessary to drill them out and probably clean up the remaining 
thread (be it a nut or stud) with tap/die.

These are the major tools, but as always you'll find out that various other 
tools will probably be needed along the way.
But to get started, an angle grinder along with normal workshop tools 
(sockets, spanners, etc...) will get you well underway with the stripdown, 
and you purchase the other tools as you go along.

As for where to spend extra on tools, I wouldn't say it's going to be too 
major a problem with the amount off work you'll be doing with them, but it's 
always worth while going to the shop and having a look at the vairous tools 
on offer. Personally I'd recommend going for a trip to your local machine 
mart, as they'll have all the tools you're likely to need.

Just a note, set the Mig welder up for 0.6mm wire when you get it, as it'll 
make welding thin metal far much easier.

"Jim"  wrote in message 
news:emtIe.600$FG3.594@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> I'm at the planning stages of the restoration of my Spitfire 1500, this 
> currently involves drinking tea and spending my hard earned on building my 
> tool collection. Before I splash out on a load of stuff I'm never going to 
> use can I have some input on what the 'must have' tools are for a 
> restoration (I intend to go back to bare chassis).
>
> Although I'm a believer in the maxim 'you get what you pay for' I also 
> don't want to shell out unnessasarily, so some advice on where it's worth 
> paying the extra for and where I can save a bit would also help.
>
> I have the basics (sockets, screwdrivers, pliers/grips, hammers etc) and 
> have also invested in a compressor. A mig welder is next on the list, so 
> what else should be there ..
>
> Thanks for looking
>
> Jim.


Everybody will have their own views on these things, but the tools used will 
vary very much on what you're doing.

Initial stripdown-
Angle grinder - on any restoration project, seized bits are going to be 
inevitable, and quite often a grinder is the quickest way off removing 
seized parts. Ideally a 4 1/2" or 5" electric one is best for this kind of 
work.
Cut-off saw - Not necessary, but often handy for the tighter corners/finer 
bits a angle grinder can't get to.

Clean up-
Wire brush for angle grinder - Ideally a twisted knot brush, which will 
quickly remove surface rust, exposing clean metal with the minimal amount 
off damage to the remaining good metal.
Needle scaler - Not necessary, but is ideal for removing excess rust from 
thick metal parts (don't use on any thin sheet metal, unless you want to do 
alot off patching!)
Sand Blaster - Certainly the best method for ensuring rust is removed, but 
will quickly highlight any areas where the metal isn't thick enough.
Drill + taps/dies - with the inevitable problem off broken/cut off fastners, 
it will be necessary to drill them out and probably clean up the remaining 
thread (be it a nut or stud) with tap/die.

These are the major tools, but as always you'll find out that various other 
tools will probably be needed along the way.
But to get started, an angle grinder along with normal workshop tools 
(sockets, spanners, etc...) will get you well underway with the stripdown, 
and you purchase the other tools as you go along.

As for where to spend extra on tools, I wouldn't say it's going to be too 
major a problem with the amount off work you'll be doing with them, but it's 
always worth while going to the shop and having a look at the vairous tools 
on offer. Personally I'd recommend going for a trip to your local machine 
mart, as they'll have all the tools you're likely to need.

Just a note, set the Mig welder up for 0.6mm wire when you get it, as it'll 
make welding thin metal far much easier.

"Jim"  realised it was Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:44:26 GMT
and decided it was time to write:


>I have the basics (sockets, screwdrivers, pliers/grips, hammers etc) and 
>have also invested in a compressor. A mig welder is next on the list, so 
>what else should be there ..


It all depends on how far you want to go, how far the car is gone and
how much you want to do yourself.

I'd start with a good set of AF spanners and sockets (a Triumph Spitfire
is not much more than a giant Meccano set), some axle stands and an
angle grinder with wire brush (and protective gear!).
If you don't already have a sturdy work bench with a good vice, get one.
It's indispensable for working on subassemblies.
If it's to be a nut & bolt job, invest in a (digital) camera with flash,
a notebook, a wide selection of ziplock bags, stackable plastic boxes
and a marker pen. Photograph major parts from all angles before you take
them apart, put bolts back where they came from until you get to the
part and put assemblies like instruments, brake parts, carbs,
distributor, lights, wiring looms and such in ziplock bags until you get
to them. Put bolts that came from a particular assembly into a bag and
write on the bag where they came from. Put all the bags in the boxes and
write on the boxes what's in them. Meccano sets are enjoyed most when
the parts are sorted systematically. ;-)

Get both a workshop manual and a parts manual - the latter is for
reminding you how everything goes back together. Trust me, you will
forget.

For rebuilding, you'll need a good torque wrench. The workshop manual
will tell you what its range should be.

Even though it's not about restoring, there's a write-up on tools from a
Spitfire owner here: http://triumphspitfire.nl/tools.html - I heartily
agree with the views on tool quality. Do not be tempted to buy cheap
tools. Good tools are more expensive, but most (except Snap-On) are
worth it.

-- 
Y.

'All parts falling off of this car are of
the highest quality British manufacture'

The message 
from "Moray Cuthill"  contains these words:


> Just a note, set the Mig welder up for 0.6mm wire when you get it, as it'll 
> make welding thin metal far much easier. 


And, in my experience, use argon/CO2 mix instead of plain CO2.

-- 
Skipweasel.
Ivor Cutler - "Never knowingly understood."

"Jim"  realised it was Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:44:26 GMT
and decided it was time to write:


>I have the basics (sockets, screwdrivers, pliers/grips, hammers etc) and 
>have also invested in a compressor. A mig welder is next on the list, so 
>what else should be there ..


It all depends on how far you want to go, how far the car is gone and
how much you want to do yourself.

I'd start with a good set of AF spanners and sockets (a Triumph Spitfire
is not much more than a giant Meccano set), some axle stands and an
angle grinder with wire brush (and protective gear!).
If you don't already have a sturdy work bench with a good vice, get one.
It's indispensable for working on subassemblies.
If it's to be a nut & bolt job, invest in a (digital) camera with flash,
a notebook, a wide selection of ziplock bags, stackable plastic boxes
and a marker pen. Photograph major parts from all angles before you take
them apart, put bolts back where they came from until you get to the
part and put assemblies like instruments, brake parts, carbs,
distributor, lights, wiring looms and such in ziplock bags until you get
to them. Put bolts that came from a particular assembly into a bag and
write on the bag where they came from. Put all the bags in the boxes and
write on the boxes what's in them. Meccano sets are enjoyed most when
the parts are sorted systematically. ;-)

Get both a workshop manual and a parts manual - the latter is for
reminding you how everything goes back together. Trust me, you will
forget.

For rebuilding, you'll need a good torque wrench. The workshop manual
will tell you what its range should be.

Even though it's not about restoring, there's a write-up on tools from a
Spitfire owner here: http://triumphspitfire.nl/tools.html - I heartily
agree with the views on tool quality. Do not be tempted to buy cheap
tools. Good tools are more expensive, but most (except Snap-On) are
worth it.

-- 
Y.

'All parts falling off of this car are of
the highest quality British manufacture'

The message 
from "Moray Cuthill"  contains these words:


> Just a note, set the Mig welder up for 0.6mm wire when you get it, as it'll 
> make welding thin metal far much easier. 


And, in my experience, use argon/CO2 mix instead of plain CO2.

-- 
Skipweasel.
Ivor Cutler - "Never knowingly understood."

In article <emtIe.600$FG3.594@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Jim says...

> I'm at the planning stages of the restoration of my Spitfire 1500, this 
> currently involves drinking tea and spending my hard earned on building my 
> tool collection. Before I splash out on a load of stuff I'm never going to 
> use can I have some input on what the 'must have' tools are for a 
> restoration (I intend to go back to bare chassis).
> 
> Although I'm a believer in the maxim 'you get what you pay for' I also don't 
> want to shell out unnessasarily, so some advice on where it's worth paying 
> the extra for and where I can save a bit would also help.
> 
> I have the basics (sockets, screwdrivers, pliers/grips, hammers etc) and 
> have also invested in a compressor. A mig welder is next on the list, so 
> what else should be there ..
> 

Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets and 
screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a push 
Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools. If you don't, you'll 
damage the car, damage parts, damage yourself and end up paying twice 
as much as that expensive 8 13mm socket by the time you've broken 
several saturday market special ones.


OK...

Safety:
Gloves
Overalls
GOGGLES
Welding Mask
Face mask.
Boots.

Tools:
Brake pipe flaring kit.
Full set of taps and dies.
G clamps.
Grinder with both grinding,cutting discs,wire brush attachments and 
polishing mop head.
Valve spring compressor.
DECENT torque wrench.
Impact sockets.
Impact driver
DECENT set of drill bits.
Bench grinder.
Bench drill
Bench Press
Vice.
Pop rivet gun.
Lots of axle stands.
BIG trolley jack.
Strongarm
Scaffolding pole.
Schutz gun
Selection of spray guns.
Orbital sander.
Sanding blocks.
Set of body hammers and blocks.

Large selection of nuts, bolts, screws.

-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article <emtIe.600$FG3.594@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Jim says...

> I'm at the planning stages of the restoration of my Spitfire 1500, this 
> currently involves drinking tea and spending my hard earned on building my 
> tool collection. Before I splash out on a load of stuff I'm never going to 
> use can I have some input on what the 'must have' tools are for a 
> restoration (I intend to go back to bare chassis).
> 
> Although I'm a believer in the maxim 'you get what you pay for' I also don't 
> want to shell out unnessasarily, so some advice on where it's worth paying 
> the extra for and where I can save a bit would also help.
> 
> I have the basics (sockets, screwdrivers, pliers/grips, hammers etc) and 
> have also invested in a compressor. A mig welder is next on the list, so 
> what else should be there ..
> 

Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets and 
screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a push 
Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools. If you don't, you'll 
damage the car, damage parts, damage yourself and end up paying twice 
as much as that expensive 8 13mm socket by the time you've broken 
several saturday market special ones.


OK...

Safety:
Gloves
Overalls
GOGGLES
Welding Mask
Face mask.
Boots.

Tools:
Brake pipe flaring kit.
Full set of taps and dies.
G clamps.
Grinder with both grinding,cutting discs,wire brush attachments and 
polishing mop head.
Valve spring compressor.
DECENT torque wrench.
Impact sockets.
Impact driver
DECENT set of drill bits.
Bench grinder.
Bench drill
Bench Press
Vice.
Pop rivet gun.
Lots of axle stands.
BIG trolley jack.
Strongarm
Scaffolding pole.
Schutz gun
Selection of spray guns.
Orbital sander.
Sanding blocks.
Set of body hammers and blocks.

Large selection of nuts, bolts, screws.

-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 21:54:59 +0100, Conor 
wrote:


>In article <emtIe.600$FG3.594@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Jim says...
>> I'm at the planning stages of the restoration of my Spitfire 1500, this 
>> currently involves drinking tea and spending my hard earned on building my 
>> tool collection. Before I splash out on a load of stuff I'm never going to 
>> use can I have some input on what the 'must have' tools are for a 
>> restoration (I intend to go back to bare chassis).
>> 
>> Although I'm a believer in the maxim 'you get what you pay for' I also don't 
>> want to shell out unnessasarily, so some advice on where it's worth paying 
>> the extra for and where I can save a bit would also help.
>> 
>> I have the basics (sockets, screwdrivers, pliers/grips, hammers etc) and 
>> have also invested in a compressor. A mig welder is next on the list, so 
>> what else should be there ..
>> 
>Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets and 
>screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a push 
>Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools. If you don't, you'll 
>damage the car, damage parts, damage yourself and end up paying twice 
>as much as that expensive 8 13mm socket by the time you've broken 
>several saturday market special ones.
>
>
>OK...
>
>Safety:
>Gloves
>Overalls
>GOGGLES
>Welding Mask
>Face mask.
>Boots.
>
>Tools:
>Brake pipe flaring kit.
>Full set of taps and dies.
>G clamps.
>Grinder with both grinding,cutting discs,wire brush attachments and 
>polishing mop head.
>Valve spring compressor.
>DECENT torque wrench.
>Impact sockets.
>Impact driver
>DECENT set of drill bits.
>Bench grinder.
>Bench drill
>Bench Press
>Vice.
>Pop rivet gun.
>Lots of axle stands.
>BIG trolley jack.
>Strongarm
>Scaffolding pole.
>Schutz gun
>Selection of spray guns.
>Orbital sander.
>Sanding blocks.
>Set of body hammers and blocks.
>
>Large selection of nuts, bolts, screws.


You feel my standard kit of duct tape, superglue and a hammer is
inadequate, then?
-- 

Ian

> Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets and
> screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a push
> Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools.
>

There are many more brands than that which will be more than good enough for
a home mechanic. The halfords pro range is excellent stuff, made by Facom.
(the lifetime guarantee is better than snap-on, they simply change the tool
without arguing, which is more than I can say for my snap-on supplier!)

Snap on and MAC are fine if you like paying extra for the name, as long as
you steer clear of the really cheap and nasty stuff, you should be OK. If
you can find an independent tool van in your area, you will probably find
decent tools at good prices. Try asking at local garages if they know of
one.

On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 21:54:59 +0100, Conor 
wrote:


>In article <emtIe.600$FG3.594@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Jim says...
>> I'm at the planning stages of the restoration of my Spitfire 1500, this 
>> currently involves drinking tea and spending my hard earned on building my 
>> tool collection. Before I splash out on a load of stuff I'm never going to 
>> use can I have some input on what the 'must have' tools are for a 
>> restoration (I intend to go back to bare chassis).
>> 
>> Although I'm a believer in the maxim 'you get what you pay for' I also don't 
>> want to shell out unnessasarily, so some advice on where it's worth paying 
>> the extra for and where I can save a bit would also help.
>> 
>> I have the basics (sockets, screwdrivers, pliers/grips, hammers etc) and 
>> have also invested in a compressor. A mig welder is next on the list, so 
>> what else should be there ..
>> 
>Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets and 
>screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a push 
>Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools. If you don't, you'll 
>damage the car, damage parts, damage yourself and end up paying twice 
>as much as that expensive 8 13mm socket by the time you've broken 
>several saturday market special ones.
>
>
>OK...
>
>Safety:
>Gloves
>Overalls
>GOGGLES
>Welding Mask
>Face mask.
>Boots.
>
>Tools:
>Brake pipe flaring kit.
>Full set of taps and dies.
>G clamps.
>Grinder with both grinding,cutting discs,wire brush attachments and 
>polishing mop head.
>Valve spring compressor.
>DECENT torque wrench.
>Impact sockets.
>Impact driver
>DECENT set of drill bits.
>Bench grinder.
>Bench drill
>Bench Press
>Vice.
>Pop rivet gun.
>Lots of axle stands.
>BIG trolley jack.
>Strongarm
>Scaffolding pole.
>Schutz gun
>Selection of spray guns.
>Orbital sander.
>Sanding blocks.
>Set of body hammers and blocks.
>
>Large selection of nuts, bolts, screws.


You feel my standard kit of duct tape, superglue and a hammer is
inadequate, then?
-- 

Ian

> Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets and
> screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a push
> Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools.
>

There are many more brands than that which will be more than good enough for
a home mechanic. The halfords pro range is excellent stuff, made by Facom.
(the lifetime guarantee is better than snap-on, they simply change the tool
without arguing, which is more than I can say for my snap-on supplier!)

Snap on and MAC are fine if you like paying extra for the name, as long as
you steer clear of the really cheap and nasty stuff, you should be OK. If
you can find an independent tool van in your area, you will probably find
decent tools at good prices. Try asking at local garages if they know of
one.

Ian Dalziel  realised it was Thu, 04 Aug 2005
23:05:56 +0100 and decided it was time to write:


>You feel my standard kit of duct tape, superglue and a hammer is
>inadequate, then?


I'd supplement it with some baling wire and a bigger hammer.

-- 
Y.

'All parts falling off of this car are of
the highest quality British manufacture'

Ian Dalziel  realised it was Thu, 04 Aug 2005
23:05:56 +0100 and decided it was time to write:


>You feel my standard kit of duct tape, superglue and a hammer is
>inadequate, then?


I'd supplement it with some baling wire and a bigger hammer.

-- 
Y.

'All parts falling off of this car are of
the highest quality British manufacture'

Moray Cuthill  wrote in message
news:42f29768@news.greennet.net...
<snip>

> Initial stripdown-
> Angle grinder - on any restoration project, seized bits are going to be
> inevitable, and quite often a grinder is the quickest way off removing
> seized parts. Ideally a 4 1/2" or 5" electric one is best for this kind of
> work.

<snip again>

> Wire brush for angle grinder


Don't forget this is a very noisy tool at close quarters.  Get some good ear
defenders unless you like the idea of a whistle in your ears for hours
afterwards!

Jim

Moray Cuthill  wrote in message
news:42f29768@news.greennet.net...
<snip>

> Initial stripdown-
> Angle grinder - on any restoration project, seized bits are going to be
> inevitable, and quite often a grinder is the quickest way off removing
> seized parts. Ideally a 4 1/2" or 5" electric one is best for this kind of
> work.

<snip again>

> Wire brush for angle grinder


Don't forget this is a very noisy tool at close quarters.  Get some good ear
defenders unless you like the idea of a whistle in your ears for hours
afterwards!

Jim

In article <dcu3oj$o1$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, SimonJ 
says...


> Snap on and MAC are fine if you like paying extra for the name, as long as
> you steer clear of the really cheap and nasty stuff, you should be OK. If
> you can find an independent tool van in your area, you will probably find
> decent tools at good prices. Try asking at local garages if they know of
> one.
> 

Just to add...

Some towns/cities have a second hand tools shop. Usually you can find 
the top names in there for very little money. As it's good kit it still 
represents a good buy.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article <dcu3oj$o1$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, SimonJ 
says...


> Snap on and MAC are fine if you like paying extra for the name, as long as
> you steer clear of the really cheap and nasty stuff, you should be OK. If
> you can find an independent tool van in your area, you will probably find
> decent tools at good prices. Try asking at local garages if they know of
> one.
> 

Just to add...

Some towns/cities have a second hand tools shop. Usually you can find 
the top names in there for very little money. As it's good kit it still 
represents a good buy.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

<uk.rec.cars.maintenance snipped as my newsreader doesn't like it>
Conor wrote:


> Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets and 
> screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a push 
> Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools. If you don't, you'll 
> damage the car, damage parts, damage yourself and end up paying twice 
> as much as that expensive 8 13mm socket by the time you've broken 
> several saturday market special ones.


13mm? Splutter! We're talking about classics here!
And 8 quid a socket? If I could afford that much I'd be paying someone 
else to do the job. Buy secondhand ones at 3 for a quid from 
autojumbles, and if you're lucky you can find the odd decent make among 
them.


> Grinder with both grinding,cutting discs,wire brush attachments and 
> polishing mop head.


The grinder's got to be a variable speed one then. I don't think a 
polishing mop would last long at 10,000rpm. And wire brushes on single 
speed grinders really should be avoided or you spend forever pulling 
bits of wire out of your clothes.

> >You feel my standard kit of duct tape, superglue and a hammer is
> >inadequate, then?
>
> I'd supplement it with some baling wire and a bigger hammer.
>

Not forgetting cable ties, and a bigger hammer still?

"Jim Warren"  wrote in message
news:D2EIe.82984$G8.80088@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

>
> Moray Cuthill  wrote in message
> news:42f29768@news.greennet.net...
> <snip>
> > Initial stripdown-
> > Angle grinder - on any restoration project, seized bits are going to be
> > inevitable, and quite often a grinder is the quickest way off removing
> > seized parts. Ideally a 4 1/2" or 5" electric one is best for this kind
of
> > work.
> <snip again>
> > Wire brush for angle grinder
>
> Don't forget this is a very noisy tool at close quarters.  Get some good
ear
> defenders unless you like the idea of a whistle in your ears for hours
> afterwards!


And good eye protecrion. Saves a trip to hospital to get a sliver of metal
picked out of your eye as I had once. (One of the little ventilation disks
was missing and the little sod found its way in via that).
And I find the auto darkening welding masks a real boon with my attempts at
MIG welding.

"Conor"  wrote in message
news:MPG.1d5c90fa3871a98e98a5ca@news.individual.net...


> Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets and
> screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a push
> Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools.


What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?
You can buy cheap tools of equal quality if you stop buying by name, and buy
by what they're made from.
IME as an engineer, those made from 'Chrome Vanadium' and stamped or marked
as such, are a pretty good guarantee that the tools are of good quality, and
not likely to fail, even under heavy use.
I have a no-name combination spanner set. 10mm-32mm that I paid about 24
for about 2 years ago. Even after heavy use, they still don't show any signs
of wear, and I've even had levers on on some of them.
Mike.

On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:44:26 +0000, Jim wrote:


> I'm at the planning stages of the restoration of my Spitfire 1500, this 
> currently involves drinking tea and spending my hard earned on building my 
> tool collection. Before I splash out on a load of stuff I'm never going to 
> use can I have some input on what the 'must have' tools are for a 
> restoration (I intend to go back to bare chassis).
> 
> Although I'm a believer in the maxim 'you get what you pay for' I also don't 
> want to shell out unnessasarily, so some advice on where it's worth paying 
> the extra for and where I can save a bit would also help.
> 
> I have the basics (sockets, screwdrivers, pliers/grips, hammers etc) and 
> have also invested in a compressor. A mig welder is next on the list, so 
> what else should be there ..




Take Conor's advice - elsewhere - if you wish.  That's fine if you have
deep pockets and it does definitely make life easier.

Old British cars were built to be worked on, they broke down a lot! :-) 
This means you can do pretty much anything without a lot of tools.  I
stripped a mini to the bare bodyshell and rebuilt it years ago while
on the dole with not the greatest tool kit as you may well imagine.  A bit
of thought and ingenuity can go a long way.

> >You feel my standard kit of duct tape, superglue and a hammer is
> >inadequate, then?
>
> I'd supplement it with some baling wire and a bigger hammer.
>

Not forgetting cable ties, and a bigger hammer still?

"Jim Warren"  wrote in message
news:D2EIe.82984$G8.80088@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

>
> Moray Cuthill  wrote in message
> news:42f29768@news.greennet.net...
> <snip>
> > Initial stripdown-
> > Angle grinder - on any restoration project, seized bits are going to be
> > inevitable, and quite often a grinder is the quickest way off removing
> > seized parts. Ideally a 4 1/2" or 5" electric one is best for this kind
of
> > work.
> <snip again>
> > Wire brush for angle grinder
>
> Don't forget this is a very noisy tool at close quarters.  Get some good
ear
> defenders unless you like the idea of a whistle in your ears for hours
> afterwards!


And good eye protecrion. Saves a trip to hospital to get a sliver of metal
picked out of your eye as I had once. (One of the little ventilation disks
was missing and the little sod found its way in via that).
And I find the auto darkening welding masks a real boon with my attempts at
MIG welding.

"Conor"  wrote in message
news:MPG.1d5c90fa3871a98e98a5ca@news.individual.net...


> Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets and
> screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a push
> Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools.


What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?
You can buy cheap tools of equal quality if you stop buying by name, and buy
by what they're made from.
IME as an engineer, those made from 'Chrome Vanadium' and stamped or marked
as such, are a pretty good guarantee that the tools are of good quality, and
not likely to fail, even under heavy use.
I have a no-name combination spanner set. 10mm-32mm that I paid about 24
for about 2 years ago. Even after heavy use, they still don't show any signs
of wear, and I've even had levers on on some of them.
Mike.

On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:44:26 +0000, Jim wrote:


> I'm at the planning stages of the restoration of my Spitfire 1500, this 
> currently involves drinking tea and spending my hard earned on building my 
> tool collection. Before I splash out on a load of stuff I'm never going to 
> use can I have some input on what the 'must have' tools are for a 
> restoration (I intend to go back to bare chassis).
> 
> Although I'm a believer in the maxim 'you get what you pay for' I also don't 
> want to shell out unnessasarily, so some advice on where it's worth paying 
> the extra for and where I can save a bit would also help.
> 
> I have the basics (sockets, screwdrivers, pliers/grips, hammers etc) and 
> have also invested in a compressor. A mig welder is next on the list, so 
> what else should be there ..




Take Conor's advice - elsewhere - if you wish.  That's fine if you have
deep pockets and it does definitely make life easier.

Old British cars were built to be worked on, they broke down a lot! :-) 
This means you can do pretty much anything without a lot of tools.  I
stripped a mini to the bare bodyshell and rebuilt it years ago while
on the dole with not the greatest tool kit as you may well imagine.  A bit
of thought and ingenuity can go a long way.

<snip>


> There are many more brands than that which will be more than good enough 
> for
> a home mechanic. The halfords pro range is excellent stuff, made by Facom.


<snip>

Seconded - I've got a fair bit of Halfords Pro stuff, and have had for 
several years now. I've not broken a single item yet, and most get regular 
use on impact wrenches and occasionally my 3' breaker bar when the impact 
wrench won't cut it!

I'd class myself as a busy home mechanic (always fixing other people's cars 
also) and would buy more tomorrow if I needed any!

Alan.

"Jim"  wrote in message 
news:emtIe.600$FG3.594@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> I'm at the planning stages of the restoration of my Spitfire 1500, this 
> currently involves drinking tea and spending my hard earned on building my 
> tool collection. Before I splash out on a load of stuff I'm never going to 
> use can I have some input on what the 'must have' tools are for a 
> restoration (I intend to go back to bare chassis).
>
> Although I'm a believer in the maxim 'you get what you pay for' I also 
> don't want to shell out unnessasarily, so some advice on where it's worth 
> paying the extra for and where I can save a bit would also help.
>
> I have the basics (sockets, screwdrivers, pliers/grips, hammers etc) and 
> have also invested in a compressor. A mig welder is next on the list, so 
> what else should be there ..
>
> Thanks for looking
>
> Jim.
>


You've got a lot of good answers so far. Make sure you buy a decent MIG, and 
not a "hobby" size machine from halfords - they are made to a price and IME 
usually poor.
Look for a decent machine with a good quality wire feed mechanism, and a 
high "duty cycle" - machines which overheat and cut out after a few minutes 
use are sooooo anoying.
If you can afford it, get one with a "EuroTorch" fitting as this allows the 
welding torch to be unplugged and replaced in seconds, and also gives the 
option to replace the standard one with a better, longer one - saves 
dragging the welder right up to the work all the time.
A longer earth lead is useful also for the same reason.
As another poster said, use Argon/CO2 mix, not plain CO2 - it's easier to 
weld with and produces a far neater, less splattery weld.
I rent cylinders from BOC, rental is about 30 per year, + gas fills at 
aound 25 each from memory. How long a cylinder lasts depends on usage, but 
you should easily get an entire car restoration out of one. BOC call the gas 
"ArgonShield".

Also buy a decent, high lift trolley jack. The cheapo ones only lift to 
about 18" and arn't much use for getting a car up high to work under. Real 
garage jacks have long handles which twist to lower - far better than the 
short handles you have to remove and apply to the valve to lower with. The 
action tends to be very sudden at lowering also usually!

HTH,

Alan.

In article <42f33393$0$24037$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>, Mike 
G says...


> What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?


Years of experience.


> You can buy cheap tools of equal quality if you stop buying by name, and buy
> by what they're made from.


ROFLMAO. Oh dear. Would that be the 13mm socket that can be anything 
from 12.5mm to 13.5mm depending on how worn the stamp is at the time 
it's made?


> IME as an engineer, those made from 'Chrome Vanadium' and stamped or marked
> as such, are a pretty good guarantee that the tools are of good quality, and
> not likely to fail, even under heavy use.


Bullshit TBH. Chrome Vanadium has been stamped on more white metal 
spanners than I care to mention. You can bend them by hand and the 
spanner jaws give up too easily. I think most people who've bought 
cheap spanners marked as such will agree with me. Once it was so bad 
with some sockets that I went through 7 sockets trying to undo ONE 
headbolt on a Rover 2600. Even then, after 7 sockets, it hadn't 
shifted. Went and got a "proper" one and did the job.






-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

<snip>


> There are many more brands than that which will be more than good enough 
> for
> a home mechanic. The halfords pro range is excellent stuff, made by Facom.


<snip>

Seconded - I've got a fair bit of Halfords Pro stuff, and have had for 
several years now. I've not broken a single item yet, and most get regular 
use on impact wrenches and occasionally my 3' breaker bar when the impact 
wrench won't cut it!

I'd class myself as a busy home mechanic (always fixing other people's cars 
also) and would buy more tomorrow if I needed any!

Alan.

"Jim"  wrote in message 
news:emtIe.600$FG3.594@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> I'm at the planning stages of the restoration of my Spitfire 1500, this 
> currently involves drinking tea and spending my hard earned on building my 
> tool collection. Before I splash out on a load of stuff I'm never going to 
> use can I have some input on what the 'must have' tools are for a 
> restoration (I intend to go back to bare chassis).
>
> Although I'm a believer in the maxim 'you get what you pay for' I also 
> don't want to shell out unnessasarily, so some advice on where it's worth 
> paying the extra for and where I can save a bit would also help.
>
> I have the basics (sockets, screwdrivers, pliers/grips, hammers etc) and 
> have also invested in a compressor. A mig welder is next on the list, so 
> what else should be there ..
>
> Thanks for looking
>
> Jim.
>


You've got a lot of good answers so far. Make sure you buy a decent MIG, and 
not a "hobby" size machine from halfords - they are made to a price and IME 
usually poor.
Look for a decent machine with a good quality wire feed mechanism, and a 
high "duty cycle" - machines which overheat and cut out after a few minutes 
use are sooooo anoying.
If you can afford it, get one with a "EuroTorch" fitting as this allows the 
welding torch to be unplugged and replaced in seconds, and also gives the 
option to replace the standard one with a better, longer one - saves 
dragging the welder right up to the work all the time.
A longer earth lead is useful also for the same reason.
As another poster said, use Argon/CO2 mix, not plain CO2 - it's easier to 
weld with and produces a far neater, less splattery weld.
I rent cylinders from BOC, rental is about 30 per year, + gas fills at 
aound 25 each from memory. How long a cylinder lasts depends on usage, but 
you should easily get an entire car restoration out of one. BOC call the gas 
"ArgonShield".

Also buy a decent, high lift trolley jack. The cheapo ones only lift to 
about 18" and arn't much use for getting a car up high to work under. Real 
garage jacks have long handles which twist to lower - far better than the 
short handles you have to remove and apply to the valve to lower with. The 
action tends to be very sudden at lowering also usually!

HTH,

Alan.

In article <42f33393$0$24037$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>, Mike 
G says...


> What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?


Years of experience.


> You can buy cheap tools of equal quality if you stop buying by name, and buy
> by what they're made from.


ROFLMAO. Oh dear. Would that be the 13mm socket that can be anything 
from 12.5mm to 13.5mm depending on how worn the stamp is at the time 
it's made?


> IME as an engineer, those made from 'Chrome Vanadium' and stamped or marked
> as such, are a pretty good guarantee that the tools are of good quality, and
> not likely to fail, even under heavy use.


Bullshit TBH. Chrome Vanadium has been stamped on more white metal 
spanners than I care to mention. You can bend them by hand and the 
spanner jaws give up too easily. I think most people who've bought 
cheap spanners marked as such will agree with me. Once it was so bad 
with some sockets that I went through 7 sockets trying to undo ONE 
headbolt on a Rover 2600. Even then, after 7 sockets, it hadn't 
shifted. Went and got a "proper" one and did the job.






-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

"Jim"  wrote in message 
news:emtIe.600$FG3.594@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> I'm at the planning stages of the restoration of my Spitfire 1500, this 
> currently involves drinking tea and spending my hard earned on building my 
> tool collection. Before I splash out on a load of stuff I'm never going to 
> use can I have some input on what the 'must have' tools are for a 
> restoration (I intend to go back to bare chassis).
>
> Although I'm a believer in the maxim 'you get what you pay for' I also 
> don't want to shell out unnessasarily, so some advice on where it's worth 
> paying the extra for and where I can save a bit would also help.
>
> I have the basics (sockets, screwdrivers, pliers/grips, hammers etc) and 
> have also invested in a compressor. A mig welder is next on the list, so 
> what else should be there ..
>
> Thanks for looking
>
> Jim.


Get yourself some good solid axle stands.  Or dig a pit.

Ron Robinson

Hi guys

Thanks for all the input, some really useful stuff there.

My socket set is from the Draper Expert range, haven't really used it anger 
yet but I would guess it is middle of the range quality wise so should 
suffice for my needs.

The MIG welder I was thinking of is the Clarke 151TE but open to suggestions 
if there is anything better around the same price.

I've put some of the other suggestions on my list - off to Machinemart 
tomorrow, hope my credit card will hold up !!

Cheers

Jim




"Alan"  wrote in message 
news:36IIe.12904$SO4.9326@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...

>
> "Jim"  wrote in message 
> news:emtIe.600$FG3.594@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>> I'm at the planning stages of the restoration of my Spitfire 1500, this 
>> currently involves drinking tea and spending my hard earned on building 
>> my tool collection. Before I splash out on a load of stuff I'm never 
>> going to use can I have some input on what the 'must have' tools are for 
>> a restoration (I intend to go back to bare chassis).
>>
>> Although I'm a believer in the maxim 'you get what you pay for' I also 
>> don't want to shell out unnessasarily, so some advice on where it's worth 
>> paying the extra for and where I can save a bit would also help.
>>
>> I have the basics (sockets, screwdrivers, pliers/grips, hammers etc) and 
>> have also invested in a compressor. A mig welder is next on the list, so 
>> what else should be there ..
>>
>> Thanks for looking
>>
>> Jim.
>>
>
> You've got a lot of good answers so far. Make sure you buy a decent MIG, 
> and not a "hobby" size machine from halfords - they are made to a price 
> and IME usually poor.
> Look for a decent machine with a good quality wire feed mechanism, and a 
> high "duty cycle" - machines which overheat and cut out after a few 
> minutes use are sooooo anoying.
> If you can afford it, get one with a "EuroTorch" fitting as this allows 
> the welding torch to be unplugged and replaced in seconds, and also gives 
> the option to replace the standard one with a better, longer one - saves 
> dragging the welder right up to the work all the time.
> A longer earth lead is useful also for the same reason.
> As another poster said, use Argon/CO2 mix, not plain CO2 - it's easier to 
> weld with and produces a far neater, less splattery weld.
> I rent cylinders from BOC, rental is about 30 per year, + gas fills at 
> aound 25 each from memory. How long a cylinder lasts depends on usage, 
> but you should easily get an entire car restoration out of one. BOC call 
> the gas "ArgonShield".
>
> Also buy a decent, high lift trolley jack. The cheapo ones only lift to 
> about 18" and arn't much use for getting a car up high to work under. Real 
> garage jacks have long handles which twist to lower - far better than the 
> short handles you have to remove and apply to the valve to lower with. The 
> action tends to be very sudden at lowering also usually!
>
> HTH,
>
> Alan.
> 

> > There are many more brands than that which will be more than good enough
> > for
> > a home mechanic. The halfords pro range is excellent stuff, made by
Facom.
>
> <snip>
>
> Seconded - I've got a fair bit of Halfords Pro stuff, and have had for
> several years now. I've not broken a single item yet, and most get regular
> use on impact wrenches and occasionally my 3' breaker bar when the impact
> wrench won't cut it!
>

The only time I managed to break a halfords pro tool was when I was trying
to take a brake calliper off a 17tonne truck.
Managed to snap the end off my halfords breaker bar, so I borrowed I snap-on
breaker bar, and managed to break that in the same place.

Took the halfords breaker bar back, without receipt, and was immediately
given a replacement, no questions asked, no argument.
Took the snap-on bar back, only to be told that the end piece was
'consumable' and not covered by the warranty**. Took several minutes of
arguing to get the part replaced for free.
The snap-on bar was about 5 times the price of the halfords, which was just
as strong, but halfords have a far better warranty.


**It would seem that the snap-on guarantee only cover the parts which aren't
going to break anyway, and the parts which are liable to break are
'consumables', and not covered.

"Jim"  wrote in message 
news:emtIe.600$FG3.594@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> I'm at the planning stages of the restoration of my Spitfire 1500, this 
> currently involves drinking tea and spending my hard earned on building my 
> tool collection. Before I splash out on a load of stuff I'm never going to 
> use can I have some input on what the 'must have' tools are for a 
> restoration (I intend to go back to bare chassis).
>
> Although I'm a believer in the maxim 'you get what you pay for' I also 
> don't want to shell out unnessasarily, so some advice on where it's worth 
> paying the extra for and where I can save a bit would also help.
>
> I have the basics (sockets, screwdrivers, pliers/grips, hammers etc) and 
> have also invested in a compressor. A mig welder is next on the list, so 
> what else should be there ..
>
> Thanks for looking
>
> Jim.


Get yourself some good solid axle stands.  Or dig a pit.

Ron Robinson

Hi guys

Thanks for all the input, some really useful stuff there.

My socket set is from the Draper Expert range, haven't really used it anger 
yet but I would guess it is middle of the range quality wise so should 
suffice for my needs.

The MIG welder I was thinking of is the Clarke 151TE but open to suggestions 
if there is anything better around the same price.

I've put some of the other suggestions on my list - off to Machinemart 
tomorrow, hope my credit card will hold up !!

Cheers

Jim




"Alan"  wrote in message 
news:36IIe.12904$SO4.9326@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...

>
> "Jim"  wrote in message 
> news:emtIe.600$FG3.594@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>> I'm at the planning stages of the restoration of my Spitfire 1500, this 
>> currently involves drinking tea and spending my hard earned on building 
>> my tool collection. Before I splash out on a load of stuff I'm never 
>> going to use can I have some input on what the 'must have' tools are for 
>> a restoration (I intend to go back to bare chassis).
>>
>> Although I'm a believer in the maxim 'you get what you pay for' I also 
>> don't want to shell out unnessasarily, so some advice on where it's worth 
>> paying the extra for and where I can save a bit would also help.
>>
>> I have the basics (sockets, screwdrivers, pliers/grips, hammers etc) and 
>> have also invested in a compressor. A mig welder is next on the list, so 
>> what else should be there ..
>>
>> Thanks for looking
>>
>> Jim.
>>
>
> You've got a lot of good answers so far. Make sure you buy a decent MIG, 
> and not a "hobby" size machine from halfords - they are made to a price 
> and IME usually poor.
> Look for a decent machine with a good quality wire feed mechanism, and a 
> high "duty cycle" - machines which overheat and cut out after a few 
> minutes use are sooooo anoying.
> If you can afford it, get one with a "EuroTorch" fitting as this allows 
> the welding torch to be unplugged and replaced in seconds, and also gives 
> the option to replace the standard one with a better, longer one - saves 
> dragging the welder right up to the work all the time.
> A longer earth lead is useful also for the same reason.
> As another poster said, use Argon/CO2 mix, not plain CO2 - it's easier to 
> weld with and produces a far neater, less splattery weld.
> I rent cylinders from BOC, rental is about 30 per year, + gas fills at 
> aound 25 each from memory. How long a cylinder lasts depends on usage, 
> but you should easily get an entire car restoration out of one. BOC call 
> the gas "ArgonShield".
>
> Also buy a decent, high lift trolley jack. The cheapo ones only lift to 
> about 18" and arn't much use for getting a car up high to work under. Real 
> garage jacks have long handles which twist to lower - far better than the 
> short handles you have to remove and apply to the valve to lower with. The 
> action tends to be very sudden at lowering also usually!
>
> HTH,
>
> Alan.
> 

> > There are many more brands than that which will be more than good enough
> > for
> > a home mechanic. The halfords pro range is excellent stuff, made by
Facom.
>
> <snip>
>
> Seconded - I've got a fair bit of Halfords Pro stuff, and have had for
> several years now. I've not broken a single item yet, and most get regular
> use on impact wrenches and occasionally my 3' breaker bar when the impact
> wrench won't cut it!
>

The only time I managed to break a halfords pro tool was when I was trying
to take a brake calliper off a 17tonne truck.
Managed to snap the end off my halfords breaker bar, so I borrowed I snap-on
breaker bar, and managed to break that in the same place.

Took the halfords breaker bar back, without receipt, and was immediately
given a replacement, no questions asked, no argument.
Took the snap-on bar back, only to be told that the end piece was
'consumable' and not covered by the warranty**. Took several minutes of
arguing to get the part replaced for free.
The snap-on bar was about 5 times the price of the halfords, which was just
as strong, but halfords have a far better warranty.


**It would seem that the snap-on guarantee only cover the parts which aren't
going to break anyway, and the parts which are liable to break are
'consumables', and not covered.

"Conor"  wrote in message
news:MPG.1d5d60e5235bcac398a5e4@news.individual.net...

> In article <42f33393$0$24037$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>, Mike
> G says...
>
> > What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?
>
> Years of experience.


Obviously it didn't teach you anything. You're like all the others who think
that only tools made by well known manufacturers like Facom, Britool,
Snap-on, Presto etc, are good quality tools.
Get wise. You're probably paying more for the name, than any guarantee that
the tool is any better than a no-name tool, possibly made in the far east.

It wouldn't surprise me if many of the tools supplied by the 'better'
manufacturers, were made by the same Co's supplying the bottom end of the
market.
IOW the same tools without the name stamped on.


> > You can buy cheap tools of equal quality if you stop buying by name, and
buy
> > by what they're made from.
>
> ROFLMAO. Oh dear. Would that be the 13mm socket that can be anything
> from 12.5mm to 13.5mm depending on how worn the stamp is at the time
> it's made?


Well if you buy tools from a Saturday market stallholder, what do you
expect?


> > IME as an engineer, those made from 'Chrome Vanadium' and stamped or
marked
> > as such, are a pretty good guarantee that the tools are of good quality,
and
> > not likely to fail, even under heavy use.
>
> Bullshit TBH. Chrome Vanadium has been stamped on more white metal
> spanners than I care to mention. You can bend them by hand and the
> spanner jaws give up too easily.


Where the hell do you buy these tools?
I buy from recognised small tool suppliers, like Buck and Hickman, J&L
Industrial supply, Draper, Sealey, etc.
IME reputable Co's don't stock or sell such poor quality tools.
Even their very cheap drop-forged tools are better than that.
Not that I'm recommending.anyone buy them.

 I think most people who've bought

> cheap spanners marked as such will agree with me.


Marked as such?
Cheap tools are not marked as cheap. I'm talking about well finished tools
marked Chrome Vanadium baught from a reputable stockist, at a low price.
The top 3  combination sets on this page for instance.

http://tinyurl.com/9l9ay

And don't try to tell me they are rubbish, because I have some Kamasa
combination spanners, and they are excellent value, and as strong as other
spanners I have, made by 'better' manufacturers.

You're like others who think that a high price guarantees quality. I have
news for you, it doesn't. I baught an expensive set of hex keys from a
Snap-On van once, when I'd mislaid my own set of Allen hex keys. They were
crap, as was a cross point screwdriver I baught on another occasion. A
cheapy cross point baught from Halfords some years ago is still serviceable.
The Snap-On one finished up in the skip. The Snap-On guy refused to change
it. Obviously because I didn't spend enough money with him. So much for the
lifetime guarantee.

As you have on other occasions, you're spouting advice on a subject you know
very little about.
Mike.

"Jim"  realised it was Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:38:54 GMT
and decided it was time to write:


>off to Machinemart tomorrow


Be careful what you buy at Machinemart - they sell a lot of cheap
Chinese rubbish that'll break or even injure you the first time you use
it.

Been there, done that, burned the T-shirt. :-(

-- 
Y.

'All parts falling off of this car are of
the highest quality British manufacture'

"Jim"  wrote in message
news:yCMIe.12214$FG3.3373@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> Hi guys
>
> Thanks for all the input, some really useful stuff there.
>
> My socket set is from the Draper Expert range, haven't really used it
anger
> yet but I would guess it is middle of the range quality wise so should
> suffice for my needs.
>
> The MIG welder I was thinking of is the Clarke 151TE but open to
suggestions
> if there is anything better around the same price.
>
> I've put some of the other suggestions on my list - off to Machinemart
> tomorrow, hope my credit card will hold up !!


I'm becoming a little wary of Machine Mart. One of their VAT free days
coincided with a day off work so decided to treat myself to a few things.
Bench grinder where one of the grinding wheels 'wobbles'. The large high
lift trolley jack I bought a while ago started slowly sinking not that long
after I bought it.
Other stuff I've been pleased with. Engine hoist. Angle grinders.

On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:41:57 +0100, Conor wrote:


> In article <42f33393$0$24037$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>, Mike 
> G says...
> 
>> What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?
> 
> Years of experience.
> 
>> You can buy cheap tools of equal quality if you stop buying by name, and buy
>> by what they're made from.
> 
> ROFLMAO. Oh dear. Would that be the 13mm socket that can be anything 
> from 12.5mm to 13.5mm depending on how worn the stamp is at the time 
> it's made?


I've seen toolkits like that as well.

My father purchased a Clarke Pro kit from Machine mart, and every socket,
be it a 6 or 12 point one fitted nice and tight and snug. I got one from a
different shop and it was just the same - no variation in the sockets. IME
this is one of the better ways to identify a decent tooling kit.

The message <dd07af$hrm$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
from "SimonJ"  contains these words:


> **It would seem that the snap-on guarantee only cover the parts which aren't
> going to break anyway, and the parts which are liable to break are
> 'consumables', and not covered.


Such is the nature of many guarantees.

-- 
Skipweasel.
Ivor Cutler - "Never knowingly understood."

"Conor"  wrote in message
news:MPG.1d5d60e5235bcac398a5e4@news.individual.net...

> In article <42f33393$0$24037$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>, Mike
> G says...
>
> > What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?
>
> Years of experience.


Obviously it didn't teach you anything. You're like all the others who think
that only tools made by well known manufacturers like Facom, Britool,
Snap-on, Presto etc, are good quality tools.
Get wise. You're probably paying more for the name, than any guarantee that
the tool is any better than a no-name tool, possibly made in the far east.

It wouldn't surprise me if many of the tools supplied by the 'better'
manufacturers, were made by the same Co's supplying the bottom end of the
market.
IOW the same tools without the name stamped on.


> > You can buy cheap tools of equal quality if you stop buying by name, and
buy
> > by what they're made from.
>
> ROFLMAO. Oh dear. Would that be the 13mm socket that can be anything
> from 12.5mm to 13.5mm depending on how worn the stamp is at the time
> it's made?


Well if you buy tools from a Saturday market stallholder, what do you
expect?


> > IME as an engineer, those made from 'Chrome Vanadium' and stamped or
marked
> > as such, are a pretty good guarantee that the tools are of good quality,
and
> > not likely to fail, even under heavy use.
>
> Bullshit TBH. Chrome Vanadium has been stamped on more white metal
> spanners than I care to mention. You can bend them by hand and the
> spanner jaws give up too easily.


Where the hell do you buy these tools?
I buy from recognised small tool suppliers, like Buck and Hickman, J&L
Industrial supply, Draper, Sealey, etc.
IME reputable Co's don't stock or sell such poor quality tools.
Even their very cheap drop-forged tools are better than that.
Not that I'm recommending.anyone buy them.

 I think most people who've bought

> cheap spanners marked as such will agree with me.


Marked as such?
Cheap tools are not marked as cheap. I'm talking about well finished tools
marked Chrome Vanadium baught from a reputable stockist, at a low price.
The top 3  combination sets on this page for instance.

http://tinyurl.com/9l9ay

And don't try to tell me they are rubbish, because I have some Kamasa
combination spanners, and they are excellent value, and as strong as other
spanners I have, made by 'better' manufacturers.

You're like others who think that a high price guarantees quality. I have
news for you, it doesn't. I baught an expensive set of hex keys from a
Snap-On van once, when I'd mislaid my own set of Allen hex keys. They were
crap, as was a cross point screwdriver I baught on another occasion. A
cheapy cross point baught from Halfords some years ago is still serviceable.
The Snap-On one finished up in the skip. The Snap-On guy refused to change
it. Obviously because I didn't spend enough money with him. So much for the
lifetime guarantee.

As you have on other occasions, you're spouting advice on a subject you know
very little about.
Mike.

"Jim"  realised it was Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:38:54 GMT
and decided it was time to write:


>off to Machinemart tomorrow


Be careful what you buy at Machinemart - they sell a lot of cheap
Chinese rubbish that'll break or even injure you the first time you use
it.

Been there, done that, burned the T-shirt. :-(

-- 
Y.

'All parts falling off of this car are of
the highest quality British manufacture'

"Jim"  wrote in message
news:yCMIe.12214$FG3.3373@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> Hi guys
>
> Thanks for all the input, some really useful stuff there.
>
> My socket set is from the Draper Expert range, haven't really used it
anger
> yet but I would guess it is middle of the range quality wise so should
> suffice for my needs.
>
> The MIG welder I was thinking of is the Clarke 151TE but open to
suggestions
> if there is anything better around the same price.
>
> I've put some of the other suggestions on my list - off to Machinemart
> tomorrow, hope my credit card will hold up !!


I'm becoming a little wary of Machine Mart. One of their VAT free days
coincided with a day off work so decided to treat myself to a few things.
Bench grinder where one of the grinding wheels 'wobbles'. The large high
lift trolley jack I bought a while ago started slowly sinking not that long
after I bought it.
Other stuff I've been pleased with. Engine hoist. Angle grinders.

On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:41:57 +0100, Conor wrote:


> In article <42f33393$0$24037$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>, Mike 
> G says...
> 
>> What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?
> 
> Years of experience.
> 
>> You can buy cheap tools of equal quality if you stop buying by name, and buy
>> by what they're made from.
> 
> ROFLMAO. Oh dear. Would that be the 13mm socket that can be anything 
> from 12.5mm to 13.5mm depending on how worn the stamp is at the time 
> it's made?


I've seen toolkits like that as well.

My father purchased a Clarke Pro kit from Machine mart, and every socket,
be it a 6 or 12 point one fitted nice and tight and snug. I got one from a
different shop and it was just the same - no variation in the sockets. IME
this is one of the better ways to identify a decent tooling kit.

The message <dd07af$hrm$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
from "SimonJ"  contains these words:


> **It would seem that the snap-on guarantee only cover the parts which aren't
> going to break anyway, and the parts which are liable to break are
> 'consumables', and not covered.


Such is the nature of many guarantees.

-- 
Skipweasel.
Ivor Cutler - "Never knowingly understood."

> Hi guys
>
> Thanks for all the input, some really useful stuff there.
>
> My socket set is from the Draper Expert range, haven't really used it
anger
> yet but I would guess it is middle of the range quality wise so should
> suffice for my needs.
>
> The MIG welder I was thinking of is the Clarke 151TE but open to
suggestions
> if there is anything better around the same price.
>
> I've put some of the other suggestions on my list - off to Machinemart
> tomorrow, hope my credit card will hold up !!
>

Like others have said, be very selective at machine mart, some of their
stuff is crap.

I definitely wouldn't recommend buying any hand tools there, as they seem to
be pretty cheap and nasty, but some of their bigger equipment is quite good,
I bought a welder there years ago, and its the muts nuts!
Take someone with you who can tell good from bad.

> Hi guys
>
> Thanks for all the input, some really useful stuff there.
>
> My socket set is from the Draper Expert range, haven't really used it
anger
> yet but I would guess it is middle of the range quality wise so should
> suffice for my needs.
>
> The MIG welder I was thinking of is the Clarke 151TE but open to
suggestions
> if there is anything better around the same price.
>
> I've put some of the other suggestions on my list - off to Machinemart
> tomorrow, hope my credit card will hold up !!
>

Like others have said, be very selective at machine mart, some of their
stuff is crap.

I definitely wouldn't recommend buying any hand tools there, as they seem to
be pretty cheap and nasty, but some of their bigger equipment is quite good,
I bought a welder there years ago, and its the muts nuts!
Take someone with you who can tell good from bad.

On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:38:25 +0100, Mike G  wrote:


>
> "Conor"  wrote in message
> news:MPG.1d5c90fa3871a98e98a5ca@news.individual.net...
>
>> Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets and
>> screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a push
>> Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools.
>
> What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?


Braking the cheap ones. Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws that  
remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them by the  
box load.



> You can buy cheap tools of equal quality if you stop buying by name, and  
> buy
> by what they're made from.


It helps if they're made the right size, by the right process & heat  
treated properly as well though


> IME as an engineer, those made from 'Chrome Vanadium' and stamped or  
> marked
> as such, are a pretty good guarantee that the tools are of good quality,  
> and
> not likely to fail, even under heavy use.


As the phrase chrome vanadium covers an awfully large number of different  
alloys one is led to assume you are a heating engineer.


> I have a no-name combination spanner set. 10mm-32mm that I paid about 24
> for about 2 years ago. Even after heavy use, they still don't show any  
> signs
> of wear, and I've even had levers on on some of them.
> Mike.
>




-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:38:25 +0100, Mike G  wrote:


>
> "Conor"  wrote in message
> news:MPG.1d5c90fa3871a98e98a5ca@news.individual.net...
>
>> Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets and
>> screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a push
>> Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools.
>
> What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?


Braking the cheap ones. Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws that  
remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them by the  
box load.



> You can buy cheap tools of equal quality if you stop buying by name, and  
> buy
> by what they're made from.


It helps if they're made the right size, by the right process & heat  
treated properly as well though


> IME as an engineer, those made from 'Chrome Vanadium' and stamped or  
> marked
> as such, are a pretty good guarantee that the tools are of good quality,  
> and
> not likely to fail, even under heavy use.


As the phrase chrome vanadium covers an awfully large number of different  
alloys one is led to assume you are a heating engineer.


> I have a no-name combination spanner set. 10mm-32mm that I paid about 24
> for about 2 years ago. Even after heavy use, they still don't show any  
> signs
> of wear, and I've even had levers on on some of them.
> Mike.
>




-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

"Duncanwood"  wrote in message
news:op.su18qogc4wom51@amy...

> On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:38:25 +0100, Mike G  wrote:
>
> >
> > "Conor"  wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1d5c90fa3871a98e98a5ca@news.individual.net...
> >
> >> Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets and
> >> screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a push
> >> Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools.
> >
> > What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?
>
> Braking the cheap ones. Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws that
> remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them by the
> box load.


I wouldn't even bother to look.
I thaught we were talking about quality tools.
Since when has an adjustable been regarded as a quality tool. It's a tool
for amateurs who haven't got or can't be bothered to buy the correct spanner
for the job.


> > You can buy cheap tools of equal quality if you stop buying by name, and
> > buy
> > by what they're made from.
>
> It helps if they're made the right size, by the right process & heat
> treated properly as well though


Certainly, but how do you know they're not?
Just because they're cheap?
Since when has price been a guarantee of quality?


> > IME as an engineer, those made from 'Chrome Vanadium' and stamped or
> > marked
> > as such, are a pretty good guarantee that the tools are of good quality,
> > and
> > not likely to fail, even under heavy use.
>
> As the phrase chrome vanadium covers an awfully large number of different
> alloys one is led to assume you are a heating engineer.


Then you would be wrong. I am a precision mechanical engineer.
Involved with the design and manufacture of moulds, press tools, and special
purpose machine tools.
I rely on good tools to do my job, so I think I know what I'm talking about.

You are also wrong in making the assumption, that the phrase chrome vanadium
covers an awfully large number of different alloys. It doesn't. An alloy
which is classed as chrome vanadium, will contain a relatively high content
of chromium and vanadium. The precise amount of each has to be within fixed
percentage limits.

If you believe that good quality basic hand tools can't be baught cheaply,
you're wrong. I buy cheap hand tools, not because I can't afford tools made
by the 'better' manufacturers, but because IME they are equally as good
quality as tools costing several times more. If they do get stolen or lost,
it's no great deal. Unlike say Snap-On ones that cost a fortune to buy or
replace.

If you don't believe me. That after working all my life as an engineer I
don't know a good tool from a poor one, fair enough. It's your money and
your loss, not mine if you pay more than you need to for good hand tools.
Mike.

"Duncanwood"  wrote in message
news:op.su18qogc4wom51@amy...

> On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:38:25 +0100, Mike G  wrote:
>
> >
> > "Conor"  wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1d5c90fa3871a98e98a5ca@news.individual.net...
> >
> >> Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets and
> >> screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a push
> >> Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools.
> >
> > What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?
>
> Braking the cheap ones. Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws that
> remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them by the
> box load.


I wouldn't even bother to look.
I thaught we were talking about quality tools.
Since when has an adjustable been regarded as a quality tool. It's a tool
for amateurs who haven't got or can't be bothered to buy the correct spanner
for the job.


> > You can buy cheap tools of equal quality if you stop buying by name, and
> > buy
> > by what they're made from.
>
> It helps if they're made the right size, by the right process & heat
> treated properly as well though


Certainly, but how do you know they're not?
Just because they're cheap?
Since when has price been a guarantee of quality?


> > IME as an engineer, those made from 'Chrome Vanadium' and stamped or
> > marked
> > as such, are a pretty good guarantee that the tools are of good quality,
> > and
> > not likely to fail, even under heavy use.
>
> As the phrase chrome vanadium covers an awfully large number of different
> alloys one is led to assume you are a heating engineer.


Then you would be wrong. I am a precision mechanical engineer.
Involved with the design and manufacture of moulds, press tools, and special
purpose machine tools.
I rely on good tools to do my job, so I think I know what I'm talking about.

You are also wrong in making the assumption, that the phrase chrome vanadium
covers an awfully large number of different alloys. It doesn't. An alloy
which is classed as chrome vanadium, will contain a relatively high content
of chromium and vanadium. The precise amount of each has to be within fixed
percentage limits.

If you believe that good quality basic hand tools can't be baught cheaply,
you're wrong. I buy cheap hand tools, not because I can't afford tools made
by the 'better' manufacturers, but because IME they are equally as good
quality as tools costing several times more. If they do get stolen or lost,
it's no great deal. Unlike say Snap-On ones that cost a fortune to buy or
replace.

If you don't believe me. That after working all my life as an engineer I
don't know a good tool from a poor one, fair enough. It's your money and
your loss, not mine if you pay more than you need to for good hand tools.
Mike.

On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 03:45:56 +0100, Mike G  wrote:


>
> "Duncanwood"  wrote in message
> news:op.su18qogc4wom51@amy...
>> On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:38:25 +0100, Mike G  wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > "Conor"  wrote in message
>> > news:MPG.1d5c90fa3871a98e98a5ca@news.individual.net...
>> >
>> >> Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets  
>> and
>> >> screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a push
>> >> Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools.
>> >
>> > What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?
>>
>> Braking the cheap ones. Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws  
>> that
>> remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them by the
>> box load.
>
> I wouldn't even bother to look.
> I thaught we were talking about quality tools.
> Since when has an adjustable been regarded as a quality tool. It's a tool
> for amateurs who haven't got or can't be bothered to buy the correct  
> spanner
> for the job.
>


That depends on what you're doing, it's a perfectly useable tool & the  
right tool for many situations (almost none in the car maintenance area I  
do agree). & if all CV tools are the same then the same ought to apply to  
adjustable spanners, I mention them solely as a very easily demonstrated  
example.



>> > You can buy cheap tools of equal quality if you stop buying by name,  
>> and
>> > buy
>> > by what they're made from.
>>
>> It helps if they're made the right size, by the right process & heat
>> treated properly as well though
>
> Certainly, but how do you know they're not?
> Just because they're cheap?
> Since when has price been a guarantee of quality?
>


Nope, generally you can tell by inspecting them. & if you can't make  
handtools that conform to the relevant standards of quality that will let  
you stick the standards on your packaging then it's difficult to believe  
they're any good.



>> > IME as an engineer, those made from 'Chrome Vanadium' and stamped or
>> > marked
>> > as such, are a pretty good guarantee that the tools are of good  
>> quality,
>> > and
>> > not likely to fail, even under heavy use.
>>
>> As the phrase chrome vanadium covers an awfully large number of  
>> different
>> alloys one is led to assume you are a heating engineer.
>
> Then you would be wrong. I am a precision mechanical engineer.
> Involved with the design and manufacture of moulds, press tools, and  
> special
> purpose machine tools.
> I rely on good tools to do my job, so I think I know what I'm talking  
> about.
>
> You are also wrong in making the assumption, that the phrase chrome  
> vanadium
> covers an awfully large number of different alloys. It doesn't. An alloy
> which is classed as chrome vanadium, will contain a relatively high  
> content
> of chromium and vanadium. The precise amount of each has to be within  
> fixed
> percentage limits.
>


Go on then, what are the limits for calling something CV?



> If you believe that good quality basic hand tools can't be baught  
> cheaply,
> you're wrong. I buy cheap hand tools, not because I can't afford tools  
> made
> by the 'better' manufacturers, but because IME they are equally as good
> quality as tools costing several times more. If they do get stolen or  
> lost,
> it's no great deal. Unlike say Snap-On ones that cost a fortune to buy or
> replace.
>


Well personally I would agree that you can pay massively over the odds for  
any tools, snapon in particular. But the price difference between the well  
made ones isn't very large.


> If you don't believe me. That after working all my life as an engineer I
> don't know a good tool from a poor one, fair enough. It's your money and
> your loss, not mine if you pay more than you need to for good hand tools.
> Mike.
>



Super, well personally I'd really love to know where to buy #2 pozi bits  
cheap that don't disintegrate on the 30th head at 40NM,

On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 03:45:56 +0100, Mike G  wrote:


>
> "Duncanwood"  wrote in message
> news:op.su18qogc4wom51@amy...
>> On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:38:25 +0100, Mike G  wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > "Conor"  wrote in message
>> > news:MPG.1d5c90fa3871a98e98a5ca@news.individual.net...
>> >
>> >> Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets  
>> and
>> >> screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a push
>> >> Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools.
>> >
>> > What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?
>>
>> Braking the cheap ones. Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws  
>> that
>> remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them by the
>> box load.
>
> I wouldn't even bother to look.
> I thaught we were talking about quality tools.
> Since when has an adjustable been regarded as a quality tool. It's a tool
> for amateurs who haven't got or can't be bothered to buy the correct  
> spanner
> for the job.
>


That depends on what you're doing, it's a perfectly useable tool & the  
right tool for many situations (almost none in the car maintenance area I  
do agree). & if all CV tools are the same then the same ought to apply to  
adjustable spanners, I mention them solely as a very easily demonstrated  
example.



>> > You can buy cheap tools of equal quality if you stop buying by name,  
>> and
>> > buy
>> > by what they're made from.
>>
>> It helps if they're made the right size, by the right process & heat
>> treated properly as well though
>
> Certainly, but how do you know they're not?
> Just because they're cheap?
> Since when has price been a guarantee of quality?
>


Nope, generally you can tell by inspecting them. & if you can't make  
handtools that conform to the relevant standards of quality that will let  
you stick the standards on your packaging then it's difficult to believe  
they're any good.



>> > IME as an engineer, those made from 'Chrome Vanadium' and stamped or
>> > marked
>> > as such, are a pretty good guarantee that the tools are of good  
>> quality,
>> > and
>> > not likely to fail, even under heavy use.
>>
>> As the phrase chrome vanadium covers an awfully large number of  
>> different
>> alloys one is led to assume you are a heating engineer.
>
> Then you would be wrong. I am a precision mechanical engineer.
> Involved with the design and manufacture of moulds, press tools, and  
> special
> purpose machine tools.
> I rely on good tools to do my job, so I think I know what I'm talking  
> about.
>
> You are also wrong in making the assumption, that the phrase chrome  
> vanadium
> covers an awfully large number of different alloys. It doesn't. An alloy
> which is classed as chrome vanadium, will contain a relatively high  
> content
> of chromium and vanadium. The precise amount of each has to be within  
> fixed
> percentage limits.
>


Go on then, what are the limits for calling something CV?



> If you believe that good quality basic hand tools can't be baught  
> cheaply,
> you're wrong. I buy cheap hand tools, not because I can't afford tools  
> made
> by the 'better' manufacturers, but because IME they are equally as good
> quality as tools costing several times more. If they do get stolen or  
> lost,
> it's no great deal. Unlike say Snap-On ones that cost a fortune to buy or
> replace.
>


Well personally I would agree that you can pay massively over the odds for  
any tools, snapon in particular. But the price difference between the well  
made ones isn't very large.


> If you don't believe me. That after working all my life as an engineer I
> don't know a good tool from a poor one, fair enough. It's your money and
> your loss, not mine if you pay more than you need to for good hand tools.
> Mike.
>



Super, well personally I'd really love to know where to buy #2 pozi bits  
cheap that don't disintegrate on the 30th head at 40NM,

"Duncanwood"  wrote in message
news:op.su2xjjsp4wom51@amy...

> On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 03:45:56 +0100, Mike G  wrote:
>
> >
> > "Duncanwood"  wrote in message
> > news:op.su18qogc4wom51@amy...
> >> On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:38:25 +0100, Mike G  wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > "Conor"  wrote in message
> >> > news:MPG.1d5c90fa3871a98e98a5ca@news.individual.net...
> >> >
> >> >> Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets
> >> and
> >> >> screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a
push
> >> >> Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools.
> >> >
> >> > What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?
> >>
> >> Braking the cheap ones. Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws
> >> that
> >> remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them by
the
> >> box load.
> >
> > I wouldn't even bother to look.
> > I thaught we were talking about quality tools.
> > Since when has an adjustable been regarded as a quality tool. It's a
tool
> > for amateurs who haven't got or can't be bothered to buy the correct
> > spanner
> > for the job.

> That depends on what you're doing, it's a perfectly useable tool & the
> right tool for many situations (almost none in the car maintenance area I
> do agree). & if all CV tools are the same then the same ought to apply to
> adjustable spanners, I mention them solely as a very easily demonstrated
> example.


A poor example IMO as an adjustable by it's very design, means that any
great strain is going to damage it, and probably the nut/bolt head into the
bargain. Regardless of the quality of the alloy it's made from.


> > Certainly, but how do you know they're not?
> > Just because they're cheap?
> > Since when has price been a guarantee of quality?
>
> Nope, generally you can tell by inspecting them. & if you can't make
> handtools that conform to the relevant standards of quality that will let
> you stick the standards on your packaging then it's difficult to believe
> they're any good.


That maybe so, but the fact remains that good strong hand tools can be
baught that do not have all the certification you refer to.
Probably cheaply produced in China or one of the other developing far
eastern countries, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are of poor
quality.

>
> > You are also wrong in making the assumption, that the phrase chrome
> > vanadium
> > covers an awfully large number of different alloys. It doesn't. An alloy
> > which is classed as chrome vanadium, will contain a relatively high
> > content
> > of chromium and vanadium. The precise amount of each has to be within
> > fixed
> > percentage limits.
> >
>
> Go on then, what are the limits for calling something CV?


Simple answer. I don't know. I could find out I suppose, but why should I?
If you choose not to believe me, it doesn't particularly concern me.
What I do know, because I buy special steels in my job, is that specific
alloys do have to have quite tight percentages of elements to be classified
in a general category like chrome vanadium. According to the specific
application those percentages may vary, or additional elements may be added,
to alter the alloys characteristics. That for spanners for example, would be
similar whoever manufactured them. There's little point in making chrome
vanadium spanners from a composition that's unsuitable for the job. The
costs would be similar in either case.


> > If you believe that good quality basic hand tools can't be baught
> > cheaply,
> > you're wrong. I buy cheap hand tools, not because I can't afford tools
> > made
> > by the 'better' manufacturers, but because IME they are equally as good
> > quality as tools costing several times more. If they do get stolen or
> > lost,
> > it's no great deal. Unlike say Snap-On ones that cost a fortune to buy
or
> > replace.
> >
>
> Well personally I would agree that you can pay massively over the odds for
> any tools, snapon in particular. But the price difference between the well
> made ones isn't very large.


Only if you assume that the ones costing half the price are not well made,
which IME needn't be the case.


> > If you don't believe me. That after working all my life as an engineer I
> > don't know a good tool from a poor one, fair enough. It's your money and
> > your loss, not mine if you pay more than you need to for good hand
tools.
> > Mike.
>
> Super, well personally I'd really love to know where to buy #2 pozi bits
> cheap that don't disintegrate on the 30th head at 40NM,


My comments and experience are mainly about basic hand tools like spanners,
screwdrivers etc. I would expect good cheap Pozi-drive bits to be available,
but I've no personal knowledge of drive bits as I seldom use them.
I have got some cheap 1/2" impact driver sockets though. 9 IIRC for a set
of 6 or 7, that have stood up to everything I've thrown at them without
breaking. Including one being used with a 3/4" impact driver, on a very
tight crankshaft pulley nut, that my CP 1/2" impact driver couldn't shift.
Mike.

In article <yCMIe.12214$FG3.3373@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Jim 
says...


> My socket set is from the Draper Expert range, haven't really used it anger 
> yet but I would guess it is middle of the range quality wise so should 
> suffice for my needs.
> 

Aye - they're not too shabby.



> I've put some of the other suggestions on my list - off to Machinemart 
> tomorrow, hope my credit card will hold up !!
> 

Shop around - seriously. Cheap axle stands are as good as dear ones for 
example.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article <42f3a85e$0$36371$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>, 
Mike G says...


> > Years of experience.
> 
> Obviously it didn't teach you anything. You're like all the others who think
> that only tools made by well known manufacturers like Facom, Britool,
> Snap-on, Presto etc, are good quality tools.
> Get wise. You're probably paying more for the name, than any guarantee that
> the tool is any better than a no-name tool, possibly made in the far east.
> 

Difference is I was using them 8 hours a day 5 days a week, not just a 
couple of hours on a weekend once in a blue moon.



> It wouldn't surprise me if many of the tools supplied by the 'better'
> manufacturers, were made by the same Co's supplying the bottom end of the
> market.


They're not.

>  I think most people who've bought
> > cheap spanners marked as such will agree with me.
> 
> Marked as such?


Yup. Can send you one in the post if you want.


> You're like others who think that a high price guarantees quality. 


No - which is why I have Sealey impact sockets and a no name 2.99 
strong arm.

You see when you've a little experience, you can tell from the feel of 
them as much as anything whether they're any kop.

Cheap shit hand tools feel exactly like that - cheap. The ratchet 
movements feel gritty and there's no weight in the sockets or spanners.



> I have
> news for you, it doesn't. I baught an expensive set of hex keys from a
> Snap-On van once, when I'd mislaid my own set of Allen hex keys. They were
> crap, as was a cross point screwdriver I baught on another occasion. A
> cheapy cross point baught from Halfords some years ago is still serviceable.
> The Snap-On one finished up in the skip. The Snap-On guy refused to change
> it. Obviously because I didn't spend enough money with him. So much for the
> lifetime guarantee.
> 

And my boxed set of hex keys fell of the back of a van. Not even a name 
on them anywhere. Survived 18 years.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

"Duncanwood"  wrote in message
news:op.su2xjjsp4wom51@amy...

> On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 03:45:56 +0100, Mike G  wrote:
>
> >
> > "Duncanwood"  wrote in message
> > news:op.su18qogc4wom51@amy...
> >> On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:38:25 +0100, Mike G  wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > "Conor"  wrote in message
> >> > news:MPG.1d5c90fa3871a98e98a5ca@news.individual.net...
> >> >
> >> >> Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets
> >> and
> >> >> screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a
push
> >> >> Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools.
> >> >
> >> > What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?
> >>
> >> Braking the cheap ones. Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws
> >> that
> >> remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them by
the
> >> box load.
> >
> > I wouldn't even bother to look.
> > I thaught we were talking about quality tools.
> > Since when has an adjustable been regarded as a quality tool. It's a
tool
> > for amateurs who haven't got or can't be bothered to buy the correct
> > spanner
> > for the job.

> That depends on what you're doing, it's a perfectly useable tool & the
> right tool for many situations (almost none in the car maintenance area I
> do agree). & if all CV tools are the same then the same ought to apply to
> adjustable spanners, I mention them solely as a very easily demonstrated
> example.


A poor example IMO as an adjustable by it's very design, means that any
great strain is going to damage it, and probably the nut/bolt head into the
bargain. Regardless of the quality of the alloy it's made from.


> > Certainly, but how do you know they're not?
> > Just because they're cheap?
> > Since when has price been a guarantee of quality?
>
> Nope, generally you can tell by inspecting them. & if you can't make
> handtools that conform to the relevant standards of quality that will let
> you stick the standards on your packaging then it's difficult to believe
> they're any good.


That maybe so, but the fact remains that good strong hand tools can be
baught that do not have all the certification you refer to.
Probably cheaply produced in China or one of the other developing far
eastern countries, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are of poor
quality.

>
> > You are also wrong in making the assumption, that the phrase chrome
> > vanadium
> > covers an awfully large number of different alloys. It doesn't. An alloy
> > which is classed as chrome vanadium, will contain a relatively high
> > content
> > of chromium and vanadium. The precise amount of each has to be within
> > fixed
> > percentage limits.
> >
>
> Go on then, what are the limits for calling something CV?


Simple answer. I don't know. I could find out I suppose, but why should I?
If you choose not to believe me, it doesn't particularly concern me.
What I do know, because I buy special steels in my job, is that specific
alloys do have to have quite tight percentages of elements to be classified
in a general category like chrome vanadium. According to the specific
application those percentages may vary, or additional elements may be added,
to alter the alloys characteristics. That for spanners for example, would be
similar whoever manufactured them. There's little point in making chrome
vanadium spanners from a composition that's unsuitable for the job. The
costs would be similar in either case.


> > If you believe that good quality basic hand tools can't be baught
> > cheaply,
> > you're wrong. I buy cheap hand tools, not because I can't afford tools
> > made
> > by the 'better' manufacturers, but because IME they are equally as good
> > quality as tools costing several times more. If they do get stolen or
> > lost,
> > it's no great deal. Unlike say Snap-On ones that cost a fortune to buy
or
> > replace.
> >
>
> Well personally I would agree that you can pay massively over the odds for
> any tools, snapon in particular. But the price difference between the well
> made ones isn't very large.


Only if you assume that the ones costing half the price are not well made,
which IME needn't be the case.


> > If you don't believe me. That after working all my life as an engineer I
> > don't know a good tool from a poor one, fair enough. It's your money and
> > your loss, not mine if you pay more than you need to for good hand
tools.
> > Mike.
>
> Super, well personally I'd really love to know where to buy #2 pozi bits
> cheap that don't disintegrate on the 30th head at 40NM,


My comments and experience are mainly about basic hand tools like spanners,
screwdrivers etc. I would expect good cheap Pozi-drive bits to be available,
but I've no personal knowledge of drive bits as I seldom use them.
I have got some cheap 1/2" impact driver sockets though. 9 IIRC for a set
of 6 or 7, that have stood up to everything I've thrown at them without
breaking. Including one being used with a 3/4" impact driver, on a very
tight crankshaft pulley nut, that my CP 1/2" impact driver couldn't shift.
Mike.

In article <yCMIe.12214$FG3.3373@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Jim 
says...


> My socket set is from the Draper Expert range, haven't really used it anger 
> yet but I would guess it is middle of the range quality wise so should 
> suffice for my needs.
> 

Aye - they're not too shabby.



> I've put some of the other suggestions on my list - off to Machinemart 
> tomorrow, hope my credit card will hold up !!
> 

Shop around - seriously. Cheap axle stands are as good as dear ones for 
example.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article <42f3a85e$0$36371$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>, 
Mike G says...


> > Years of experience.
> 
> Obviously it didn't teach you anything. You're like all the others who think
> that only tools made by well known manufacturers like Facom, Britool,
> Snap-on, Presto etc, are good quality tools.
> Get wise. You're probably paying more for the name, than any guarantee that
> the tool is any better than a no-name tool, possibly made in the far east.
> 

Difference is I was using them 8 hours a day 5 days a week, not just a 
couple of hours on a weekend once in a blue moon.



> It wouldn't surprise me if many of the tools supplied by the 'better'
> manufacturers, were made by the same Co's supplying the bottom end of the
> market.


They're not.

>  I think most people who've bought
> > cheap spanners marked as such will agree with me.
> 
> Marked as such?


Yup. Can send you one in the post if you want.


> You're like others who think that a high price guarantees quality. 


No - which is why I have Sealey impact sockets and a no name 2.99 
strong arm.

You see when you've a little experience, you can tell from the feel of 
them as much as anything whether they're any kop.

Cheap shit hand tools feel exactly like that - cheap. The ratchet 
movements feel gritty and there's no weight in the sockets or spanners.



> I have
> news for you, it doesn't. I baught an expensive set of hex keys from a
> Snap-On van once, when I'd mislaid my own set of Allen hex keys. They were
> crap, as was a cross point screwdriver I baught on another occasion. A
> cheapy cross point baught from Halfords some years ago is still serviceable.
> The Snap-On one finished up in the skip. The Snap-On guy refused to change
> it. Obviously because I didn't spend enough money with him. So much for the
> lifetime guarantee.
> 

And my boxed set of hex keys fell of the back of a van. Not even a name 
on them anywhere. Survived 18 years.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article ,
   Conor  wrote:

> Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets and 
> screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a push 
> Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools. If you don't, you'll 
> damage the car, damage parts, damage yourself and end up paying twice 
> as much as that expensive 8 13mm socket by the time you've broken 
> several saturday market special ones.


Many many many years ago, I bought a tool set advertised in Motor Sport. 5
quid a month. 25 quid total. Tools where marked were Spinney. Think a name
used by one of the catalogue companies. Finish poor - not shiny chrome.
But very strong and serviceable tools. I've still got most of them, and
it's a convenient set with the sockets on top and the spanners on hinge
out trays. Nothing has broken, but obviously some have been lost and
replaced.

Top brand tools cost top money. But cheaper ones might be just as strong.

-- 
*Remember: First you pillage, then you burn.  

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
   Conor  wrote:

> Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets and 
> screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a push 
> Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools. If you don't, you'll 
> damage the car, damage parts, damage yourself and end up paying twice 
> as much as that expensive 8 13mm socket by the time you've broken 
> several saturday market special ones.


Many many many years ago, I bought a tool set advertised in Motor Sport. 5
quid a month. 25 quid total. Tools where marked were Spinney. Think a name
used by one of the catalogue companies. Finish poor - not shiny chrome.
But very strong and serviceable tools. I've still got most of them, and
it's a convenient set with the sockets on top and the spanners on hinge
out trays. Nothing has broken, but obviously some have been lost and
replaced.

Top brand tools cost top money. But cheaper ones might be just as strong.

-- 
*Remember: First you pillage, then you burn.  

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Conor"  wrote in message
news:MPG.1d5ee6d5fa99489298a5f0@news.individual.net...

> In article <42f3a85e$0$36371$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
> Mike G says...
>
> > > Years of experience.
> >
> > Obviously it didn't teach you anything. You're like all the others who
think
> > that only tools made by well known manufacturers like Facom, Britool,
> > Snap-on, Presto etc, are good quality tools.
> > Get wise. You're probably paying more for the name, than any guarantee
that
> > the tool is any better than a no-name tool, possibly made in the far
east.
> >
> Difference is I was using them 8 hours a day 5 days a week, not just a
> couple of hours on a weekend once in a blue moon.


One very tight nut is often all it takes to bugger a poor quality spanner.

Tell me. Why do you so often make unsupported statements about a posters
knowledge and experience, in an attempt to justify your argument?
It doesn't make your argument any stronger, just makes you look like a
pratt, especially, as it often does, it turns out that the poster either
knows more, or has more experience on the subject than yourself.

I've been an engineer of one sort or another all my life which I've
mentioned in previous arguments with you. Something you appear to have
forgotten. So overall I've probably had more experience than yourself with
hand tools, seeing as you're now a lorry driver, and have been one for a
good number of years apparently.

No matter. You carry on spouting your often ill advised advice, and those of
us who know better can carry on having a quiet laugh at your expense.
Mike.

In article <op.su18qogc4wom51@amy>,
   Duncanwood  wrote:

> > What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?

> Braking the cheap ones. Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws
> that remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them
> by the box load.


No serious car mechanic uses an adjustable spanner. They're for amateurs
who think they will be of use.

-- 
*I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Conor"  wrote in message
news:MPG.1d5ee6d5fa99489298a5f0@news.individual.net...

> In article <42f3a85e$0$36371$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net>,
> Mike G says...
>
> > > Years of experience.
> >
> > Obviously it didn't teach you anything. You're like all the others who
think
> > that only tools made by well known manufacturers like Facom, Britool,
> > Snap-on, Presto etc, are good quality tools.
> > Get wise. You're probably paying more for the name, than any guarantee
that
> > the tool is any better than a no-name tool, possibly made in the far
east.
> >
> Difference is I was using them 8 hours a day 5 days a week, not just a
> couple of hours on a weekend once in a blue moon.


One very tight nut is often all it takes to bugger a poor quality spanner.

Tell me. Why do you so often make unsupported statements about a posters
knowledge and experience, in an attempt to justify your argument?
It doesn't make your argument any stronger, just makes you look like a
pratt, especially, as it often does, it turns out that the poster either
knows more, or has more experience on the subject than yourself.

I've been an engineer of one sort or another all my life which I've
mentioned in previous arguments with you. Something you appear to have
forgotten. So overall I've probably had more experience than yourself with
hand tools, seeing as you're now a lorry driver, and have been one for a
good number of years apparently.

No matter. You carry on spouting your often ill advised advice, and those of
us who know better can carry on having a quiet laugh at your expense.
Mike.

In article <op.su18qogc4wom51@amy>,
   Duncanwood  wrote:

> > What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?

> Braking the cheap ones. Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws
> that remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them
> by the box load.


No serious car mechanic uses an adjustable spanner. They're for amateurs
who think they will be of use.

-- 
*I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "SimonJ"  saying
something like:


>
>> >You feel my standard kit of duct tape, superglue and a hammer is
>> >inadequate, then?
>>
>> I'd supplement it with some baling wire and a bigger hammer.
>>
>Not forgetting cable ties, and a bigger hammer still?
>

And string. Must have some string. And a set of rusty, broken molies.
-- 

Dave
SE6a

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "SimonJ"  saying
something like:


>**It would seem that the snap-on guarantee only cover the parts which aren't
>going to break anyway, and the parts which are liable to break are
>'consumables', and not covered.


Seems to depend on the van driver. I've twice taken some heavily used
and finally broken Snap-On stuff back and had no problems with straight
replacements. On both occasions, the SO guy I took them to wasn't the
one who got my business in the first place, it being years and hundreds
of miles later.
-- 

Dave
SE6a

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Mike G" 
saying something like:


>Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws that
>> remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them by the
>> box load.
>
>I wouldn't even bother to look.
>I thaught we were talking about quality tools.
>Since when has an adjustable been regarded as a quality tool. It's a tool
>for amateurs who haven't got or can't be bothered to buy the correct spanner
>for the job.


What utter crap. The good adjustable spanner has a place in any toolbox.
-- 

Dave
SE6a

Grimly Curmudgeon  wrote:


> We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
> drugs began to take hold. I remember "Mike G" 
> saying something like:
> 
> >Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws that
> >> remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them by the
> >> box load.
> >
> >I wouldn't even bother to look.
> >I thaught we were talking about quality tools.
> >Since when has an adjustable been regarded as a quality tool. It's a tool
> >for amateurs who haven't got or can't be bothered to buy the correct spanner
> >for the job.
> 
> What utter crap. The good adjustable spanner has a place in any toolbox.


Couldn't agree more. There's loads of jobs I can do on cars and bikes
with only an adjustable spanner and locking wrench.
-- 
Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300 - Alfa 75 TSpark
Alfa 156 2.0 TSpark Lusso - Passat 1.8 Turbo SE -  COSOC KOTL
BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "SimonJ"  saying
something like:


>
>> >You feel my standard kit of duct tape, superglue and a hammer is
>> >inadequate, then?
>>
>> I'd supplement it with some baling wire and a bigger hammer.
>>
>Not forgetting cable ties, and a bigger hammer still?
>

And string. Must have some string. And a set of rusty, broken molies.
-- 

Dave
SE6a

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "SimonJ"  saying
something like:


>**It would seem that the snap-on guarantee only cover the parts which aren't
>going to break anyway, and the parts which are liable to break are
>'consumables', and not covered.


Seems to depend on the van driver. I've twice taken some heavily used
and finally broken Snap-On stuff back and had no problems with straight
replacements. On both occasions, the SO guy I took them to wasn't the
one who got my business in the first place, it being years and hundreds
of miles later.
-- 

Dave
SE6a

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Mike G" 
saying something like:


>Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws that
>> remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them by the
>> box load.
>
>I wouldn't even bother to look.
>I thaught we were talking about quality tools.
>Since when has an adjustable been regarded as a quality tool. It's a tool
>for amateurs who haven't got or can't be bothered to buy the correct spanner
>for the job.


What utter crap. The good adjustable spanner has a place in any toolbox.
-- 

Dave
SE6a

Grimly Curmudgeon  wrote:


> We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
> drugs began to take hold. I remember "Mike G" 
> saying something like:
> 
> >Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws that
> >> remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them by the
> >> box load.
> >
> >I wouldn't even bother to look.
> >I thaught we were talking about quality tools.
> >Since when has an adjustable been regarded as a quality tool. It's a tool
> >for amateurs who haven't got or can't be bothered to buy the correct spanner
> >for the job.
> 
> What utter crap. The good adjustable spanner has a place in any toolbox.


Couldn't agree more. There's loads of jobs I can do on cars and bikes
with only an adjustable spanner and locking wrench.
-- 
Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300 - Alfa 75 TSpark
Alfa 156 2.0 TSpark Lusso - Passat 1.8 Turbo SE -  COSOC KOTL
BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #

"Grimly Curmudgeon"  wrote in message
news:bb0af11inis74elau7qudaubbod57dtph3@4ax.com...

> We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
> drugs began to take hold. I remember "Mike G" 
> saying something like:
>
> >Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws that
> >> remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them by
the
> >> box load.
> >
> >I wouldn't even bother to look.
> >I thaught we were talking about quality tools.
> >Since when has an adjustable been regarded as a quality tool. It's a tool
> >for amateurs who haven't got or can't be bothered to buy the correct
spanner
> >for the job.
>
> What utter crap. The good adjustable spanner has a place in any toolbox.


One has a place in mine.Right at the bottom, beneath all the other tools I
rarely use or have no use for.
Mike.

"SteveH"  wrote in message
news:1h0w0xc.1fdrmc62cv8bgN%steve@italiancar.co.uk...

> Grimly Curmudgeon  wrote:
>
> > We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
> > drugs began to take hold. I remember "Mike G" 
> > saying something like:
> >
> > >Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws that
> > >> remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them by
the
> > >> box load.
> > >
> > >I wouldn't even bother to look.
> > >I thaught we were talking about quality tools.
> > >Since when has an adjustable been regarded as a quality tool. It's a
tool
> > >for amateurs who haven't got or can't be bothered to buy the correct
spanner
> > >for the job.
> >
> > What utter crap. The good adjustable spanner has a place in any toolbox.
>
> Couldn't agree more. There's loads of jobs I can do on cars and bikes
> with only an adjustable spanner and locking wrench.


Maybe, but using the correct size spanner is a better alternative.
In a car or bikes toolkit they are just about acceptable. To use on cars or
bikes at home or in the w/shop, is a definite no-no as far as I'm concerned.
Mike.

"Grimly Curmudgeon"  wrote in message
news:bb0af11inis74elau7qudaubbod57dtph3@4ax.com...

> We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
> drugs began to take hold. I remember "Mike G" 
> saying something like:
>
> >Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws that
> >> remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them by
the
> >> box load.
> >
> >I wouldn't even bother to look.
> >I thaught we were talking about quality tools.
> >Since when has an adjustable been regarded as a quality tool. It's a tool
> >for amateurs who haven't got or can't be bothered to buy the correct
spanner
> >for the job.
>
> What utter crap. The good adjustable spanner has a place in any toolbox.


One has a place in mine.Right at the bottom, beneath all the other tools I
rarely use or have no use for.
Mike.

"SteveH"  wrote in message
news:1h0w0xc.1fdrmc62cv8bgN%steve@italiancar.co.uk...

> Grimly Curmudgeon  wrote:
>
> > We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
> > drugs began to take hold. I remember "Mike G" 
> > saying something like:
> >
> > >Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws that
> > >> remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them by
the
> > >> box load.
> > >
> > >I wouldn't even bother to look.
> > >I thaught we were talking about quality tools.
> > >Since when has an adjustable been regarded as a quality tool. It's a
tool
> > >for amateurs who haven't got or can't be bothered to buy the correct
spanner
> > >for the job.
> >
> > What utter crap. The good adjustable spanner has a place in any toolbox.
>
> Couldn't agree more. There's loads of jobs I can do on cars and bikes
> with only an adjustable spanner and locking wrench.


Maybe, but using the correct size spanner is a better alternative.
In a car or bikes toolkit they are just about acceptable. To use on cars or
bikes at home or in the w/shop, is a definite no-no as far as I'm concerned.
Mike.

On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 19:29:27 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
 wrote:


>>Since when has an adjustable been regarded as a quality tool. It's a tool
>>for amateurs who haven't got or can't be bothered to buy the correct spanner
>>for the job.
>
>What utter crap. The good adjustable spanner has a place in any toolbox.


I agree.  It make me cringe, though, when I see someone using one in
anger, but loading it up from the wrong side.  If you don't know what
I mean, then you're probably one of them.

In article ,
   Grimly Curmudgeon  wrote:

> >I wouldn't even bother to look. I thaught we were talking about quality
> >tools. Since when has an adjustable been regarded as a quality tool.
> >It's a tool for amateurs who haven't got or can't be bothered to buy
> >the correct spanner for the job.

> What utter crap. The good adjustable spanner has a place in any toolbox.


For a car? I have fixed spanners to suit all sizes. Adjustables by nature
are too big and unwieldy for most things, unless at near their maximum.
Avoid.

-- 
*Would a fly without wings be called a walk?

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article <42f506f9$0$14689$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,
   Mike G  wrote:

> > What utter crap. The good adjustable spanner has a place in any
> > toolbox.

> One has a place in mine.Right at the bottom, beneath all the other tools
> I rarely use or have no use for.


I wouldn't even expend the effort to carry one.

-- 
*Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 19:29:27 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
 wrote:


>>Since when has an adjustable been regarded as a quality tool. It's a tool
>>for amateurs who haven't got or can't be bothered to buy the correct spanner
>>for the job.
>
>What utter crap. The good adjustable spanner has a place in any toolbox.


I agree.  It make me cringe, though, when I see someone using one in
anger, but loading it up from the wrong side.  If you don't know what
I mean, then you're probably one of them.

In article ,
   Grimly Curmudgeon  wrote:

> >I wouldn't even bother to look. I thaught we were talking about quality
> >tools. Since when has an adjustable been regarded as a quality tool.
> >It's a tool for amateurs who haven't got or can't be bothered to buy
> >the correct spanner for the job.

> What utter crap. The good adjustable spanner has a place in any toolbox.


For a car? I have fixed spanners to suit all sizes. Adjustables by nature
are too big and unwieldy for most things, unless at near their maximum.
Avoid.

-- 
*Would a fly without wings be called a walk?

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article <42f506f9$0$14689$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,
   Mike G  wrote:

> > What utter crap. The good adjustable spanner has a place in any
> > toolbox.

> One has a place in mine.Right at the bottom, beneath all the other tools
> I rarely use or have no use for.


I wouldn't even expend the effort to carry one.

-- 
*Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)"  wrote in message 
news:4d964a7de4dave@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <op.su18qogc4wom51@amy>,
>   Duncanwood  wrote:
>> > What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?
>
>> Braking the cheap ones. Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws
>> that remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them
>> by the box load.
>
> No serious car mechanic uses an adjustable spanner. They're for amateurs
> who think they will be of use.
>


Stilsons can be useful for dismantling if all else fails.

Ron Robinson

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Mike G" 
saying something like:


>> What utter crap. The good adjustable spanner has a place in any toolbox.
>
>One has a place in mine.Right at the bottom, beneath all the other tools I
>rarely use or have no use for.


You admit it's there, though. :)

Fwiw, I very rarely, if ever, use one on automotive apps, yet I carry
one in every bike or car toolkit I have.

 Where I find them really useful is in plumbing apps, where the myriad
of odd-sized nuts on older installations would have you tearing your
hair out.
-- 

Dave
SE6a

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Dave Plowman (News)"
 saying something like:


>> What utter crap. The good adjustable spanner has a place in any toolbox.
>
>For a car? I have fixed spanners to suit all sizes. Adjustables by nature
>are too big and unwieldy for most things, unless at near their maximum.
>Avoid.


You haven't broken down enough.
-- 

Dave
SE6a

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "R.N. Robinson"
 saying something like:


>>> Braking the cheap ones. Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws
>>> that remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them
>>> by the box load.
>>
>> No serious car mechanic uses an adjustable spanner. They're for amateurs
>> who think they will be of use.
>>
>
>Stilsons can be useful for dismantling if all else fails.


Hammer and chisel, mate. That's all you need. And a gas axe.
-- 

Dave
SE6a

"Dave Plowman (News)"  wrote in message 
news:4d964a7de4dave@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <op.su18qogc4wom51@amy>,
>   Duncanwood  wrote:
>> > What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?
>
>> Braking the cheap ones. Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws
>> that remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them
>> by the box load.
>
> No serious car mechanic uses an adjustable spanner. They're for amateurs
> who think they will be of use.
>


Stilsons can be useful for dismantling if all else fails.

Ron Robinson

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Mike G" 
saying something like:


>> What utter crap. The good adjustable spanner has a place in any toolbox.
>
>One has a place in mine.Right at the bottom, beneath all the other tools I
>rarely use or have no use for.


You admit it's there, though. :)

Fwiw, I very rarely, if ever, use one on automotive apps, yet I carry
one in every bike or car toolkit I have.

 Where I find them really useful is in plumbing apps, where the myriad
of odd-sized nuts on older installations would have you tearing your
hair out.
-- 

Dave
SE6a

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Dave Plowman (News)"
 saying something like:


>> What utter crap. The good adjustable spanner has a place in any toolbox.
>
>For a car? I have fixed spanners to suit all sizes. Adjustables by nature
>are too big and unwieldy for most things, unless at near their maximum.
>Avoid.


You haven't broken down enough.
-- 

Dave
SE6a

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "R.N. Robinson"
 saying something like:


>>> Braking the cheap ones. Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws
>>> that remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them
>>> by the box load.
>>
>> No serious car mechanic uses an adjustable spanner. They're for amateurs
>> who think they will be of use.
>>
>
>Stilsons can be useful for dismantling if all else fails.


Hammer and chisel, mate. That's all you need. And a gas axe.
-- 

Dave
SE6a

In article ,
   Grimly Curmudgeon  wrote:

> >One has a place in mine.Right at the bottom, beneath all the other tools I
> >rarely use or have no use for.

> You admit it's there, though. :)

> Fwiw, I very rarely, if ever, use one on automotive apps, yet I carry
> one in every bike or car toolkit I have.

>  Where I find them really useful is in plumbing apps, where the myriad
> of odd-sized nuts on older installations would have you tearing your
> hair out.


There's not actually that many, but require larger sizes of metric, AF and
BSW that most car types have. And then the 'F' pattern adjustable is
likely to be needed. But over the years I've built up a collection of ex
WD large spanners ideal for traction engines and plumbing. They still turn
up at car boot sales for pennies, since they're not bright and shiny
chrome plated.

-- 
*The longest recorded flightof a chicken is thirteen seconds *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article <dd35k1$gbh$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
   R.N. Robinson  wrote:

> > No serious car mechanic uses an adjustable spanner. They're for
> > amateurs who think they will be of use.

> Stilsons can be useful for dismantling if all else fails.


Oh yus. ;-) But not for re-assembling.

I've got a genuine 3ft long Stilson that I wouldn't be without. Doesn't
live in the car toolbox, though. ;-)

It's in the 'oh fuck - how can I shift that' one.

-- 
*Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article <42f4f55c$0$24039$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>, Mike 
G says...


> Tell me. Why do you so often make unsupported statements about a posters
> knowledge and experience, in an attempt to justify your argument?


Because the content of their post usually warrants it.


> It doesn't make your argument any stronger, just makes you look like a
> pratt, especially, as it often does, it turns out that the poster either
> knows more, or has more experience on the subject than yourself.
> 

How do I know you know you're not lying? Google makes it easy to 
bullshit about technical info.


> I've been an engineer of one sort or another all my life which I've
> mentioned in previous arguments with you. Something you appear to have
> forgotten. So overall I've probably had more experience than yourself with
> hand tools, seeing as you're now a lorry driver, and have been one for a
> good number of years apparently.
> 

And? Not a one trick pony. Unlike you, it seems, I'm capable of doing 
more than one thing at a time. 


> No matter. You carry on spouting your often ill advised advice, and those of
> us who know better can carry on having a quiet laugh at your expense.


Really?

begin  mike_the_wanker.exe

-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article <dd35k1$gbh$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>, R.N. Robinson says...

> 
> "Dave Plowman (News)"  wrote in message 
> news:4d964a7de4dave@davenoise.co.uk...
> > In article <op.su18qogc4wom51@amy>,
> >   Duncanwood  wrote:
> >> > What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?
> >
> >> Braking the cheap ones. Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws
> >> that remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them
> >> by the box load.
> >
> > No serious car mechanic uses an adjustable spanner. They're for amateurs
> > who think they will be of use.
> >
> 
> Stilsons can be useful for dismantling if all else fails.
> 

Stilsons aren't adjustable spanners per se.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article , Grimly 
Curmudgeon says...

> We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
> drugs began to take hold. I remember "SimonJ"  saying
> something like:
> 
> >
> >> >You feel my standard kit of duct tape, superglue and a hammer is
> >> >inadequate, then?
> >>
> >> I'd supplement it with some baling wire and a bigger hammer.
> >>
> >Not forgetting cable ties, and a bigger hammer still?
> >
> And string. Must have some string. And a set of rusty, broken molies.
> 

And baler twine.

-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

> I've got a genuine 3ft long Stilson that I wouldn't be without. Doesn't
> live in the car toolbox, though. ;-)
>
> It's in the 'oh fuck - how can I shift that' one.
>
> -- 
> *Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy *


Are your sigs on a big loop, Dave?  'Cos I remember that one from several
years ago, as I nicked it for a while for my own email sig!

Peter

In article ,
   Grimly Curmudgeon  wrote:

> >One has a place in mine.Right at the bottom, beneath all the other tools I
> >rarely use or have no use for.

> You admit it's there, though. :)

> Fwiw, I very rarely, if ever, use one on automotive apps, yet I carry
> one in every bike or car toolkit I have.

>  Where I find them really useful is in plumbing apps, where the myriad
> of odd-sized nuts on older installations would have you tearing your
> hair out.


There's not actually that many, but require larger sizes of metric, AF and
BSW that most car types have. And then the 'F' pattern adjustable is
likely to be needed. But over the years I've built up a collection of ex
WD large spanners ideal for traction engines and plumbing. They still turn
up at car boot sales for pennies, since they're not bright and shiny
chrome plated.

-- 
*The longest recorded flightof a chicken is thirteen seconds *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article <dd35k1$gbh$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
   R.N. Robinson  wrote:

> > No serious car mechanic uses an adjustable spanner. They're for
> > amateurs who think they will be of use.

> Stilsons can be useful for dismantling if all else fails.


Oh yus. ;-) But not for re-assembling.

I've got a genuine 3ft long Stilson that I wouldn't be without. Doesn't
live in the car toolbox, though. ;-)

It's in the 'oh fuck - how can I shift that' one.

-- 
*Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article <42f4f55c$0$24039$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>, Mike 
G says...


> Tell me. Why do you so often make unsupported statements about a posters
> knowledge and experience, in an attempt to justify your argument?


Because the content of their post usually warrants it.


> It doesn't make your argument any stronger, just makes you look like a
> pratt, especially, as it often does, it turns out that the poster either
> knows more, or has more experience on the subject than yourself.
> 

How do I know you know you're not lying? Google makes it easy to 
bullshit about technical info.


> I've been an engineer of one sort or another all my life which I've
> mentioned in previous arguments with you. Something you appear to have
> forgotten. So overall I've probably had more experience than yourself with
> hand tools, seeing as you're now a lorry driver, and have been one for a
> good number of years apparently.
> 

And? Not a one trick pony. Unlike you, it seems, I'm capable of doing 
more than one thing at a time. 


> No matter. You carry on spouting your often ill advised advice, and those of
> us who know better can carry on having a quiet laugh at your expense.


Really?

begin  mike_the_wanker.exe

-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article <dd35k1$gbh$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>, R.N. Robinson says...

> 
> "Dave Plowman (News)"  wrote in message 
> news:4d964a7de4dave@davenoise.co.uk...
> > In article <op.su18qogc4wom51@amy>,
> >   Duncanwood  wrote:
> >> > What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?
> >
> >> Braking the cheap ones. Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws
> >> that remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them
> >> by the box load.
> >
> > No serious car mechanic uses an adjustable spanner. They're for amateurs
> > who think they will be of use.
> >
> 
> Stilsons can be useful for dismantling if all else fails.
> 

Stilsons aren't adjustable spanners per se.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article , Grimly 
Curmudgeon says...

> We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
> drugs began to take hold. I remember "SimonJ"  saying
> something like:
> 
> >
> >> >You feel my standard kit of duct tape, superglue and a hammer is
> >> >inadequate, then?
> >>
> >> I'd supplement it with some baling wire and a bigger hammer.
> >>
> >Not forgetting cable ties, and a bigger hammer still?
> >
> And string. Must have some string. And a set of rusty, broken molies.
> 

And baler twine.

-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

> I've got a genuine 3ft long Stilson that I wouldn't be without. Doesn't
> live in the car toolbox, though. ;-)
>
> It's in the 'oh fuck - how can I shift that' one.
>
> -- 
> *Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy *


Are your sigs on a big loop, Dave?  'Cos I remember that one from several
years ago, as I nicked it for a while for my own email sig!

Peter

In article <DN9Je.23686$bT4.14707@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>,
   AstraVanMan  wrote:

> > *Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy *

> Are your sigs on a big loop, Dave? 


Yup. Some thousand or so randomly picked by Pluto - my newsreader.


> 'Cos I remember that one from several years ago, as I nicked it for a
> while for my own email sig!


That's where I get them from too.

-- 
*Middle age is when it takes longer to rest than to get tired.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

From: "Dave Plowman (News)" 
Subject: Re: Tools for restoration project
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cars.classic,uk.rec.cars.maintenance
Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 23:10:44 +0100
Message-ID: 
References: <emtIe.600$FG3.594@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>  <42f33393$0$24037$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net> <op.su18qogc4wom51@amy>  <dd35k1$gbh$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>  <DN9Je.23686$bT4.14707@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>
User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) NewsHound/1.42
Organization: None
Lines: 18
NNTP-Posting-Host: 81-178-117-47.dsl.pipex.com
X-Trace: 1123366886 news-text.dial.pipex.com 13701 81.178.117.47:1106
X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net
Path: News.100ProofNews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cw-insnet-peer-00!colt.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsinpeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail
Xref: OS30 uk.rec.cars.classic:9036 uk.rec.cars.maintenance:43958
.
222 43958  article retrieved - body follows
In article <DN9Je.23686$bT4.14707@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>,
   AstraVanMan  wrote:

> > *Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy *

> Are your sigs on a big loop, Dave? 


Yup. Some thousand or so randomly picked by Pluto - my newsreader.


> 'Cos I remember that one from several years ago, as I nicked it for a
> while for my own email sig!


That's where I get them from too.

-- 
*Middle age is when it takes longer to rest than to get tired.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Conor"  wrote in message
news:MPG.1d5f37502c1bf08698a602@news.individual.net...

> In article <42f4f55c$0$24039$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>, Mike
> G says...
>
> > Tell me. Why do you so often make unsupported statements about a posters
> > knowledge and experience, in an attempt to justify your argument?
>
> Because the content of their post usually warrants it.
>
> > It doesn't make your argument any stronger, just makes you look like a
> > pratt, especially, as it often does, it turns out that the poster either
> > knows more, or has more experience on the subject than yourself.
> >
> How do I know you know you're not lying? Google makes it easy to
> bullshit about technical info.


You don't, but if you really knew as much as you think you do, you wouldn't
find it too difficult to differentiate beween those who have real personal
knowledge and those that don't.
It's quite obvious from previous arguments we've had, that you fall into the
latter category, as far as general mechanical knowhow is concerned.

>
> > I've been an engineer of one sort or another all my life which I've
> > mentioned in previous arguments with you. Something you appear to have
> > forgotten. So overall I've probably had more experience than yourself
with
> > hand tools, seeing as you're now a lorry driver, and have been one for a
> > good number of years apparently.
> >
> And? Not a one trick pony. Unlike you, it seems, I'm capable of doing
> more than one thing at a time.


There you go again. Making unsubstantiated assumptions about my
capabilities.
Whether you're correct or not is beside the point. You simply don't know
enough about me to make such an assumption.


> > No matter. You carry on spouting your often ill advised advice, and
those of
> > us who know better can carry on having a quiet laugh at your expense.
>
> Really?


Yes really. You can't fail to have missed the odd snipe at your dogmatic and
argumentative attitude, when you're confronted with evidence that proves you
wrong.

>
> begin  mike_the_wanker.exe


Conor maxim.
When you have a weak argument, start insulting the poster.
Mike.

"Conor"  wrote in message
news:MPG.1d5f37502c1bf08698a602@news.individual.net...

> In article <42f4f55c$0$24039$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>, Mike
> G says...
>
> > Tell me. Why do you so often make unsupported statements about a posters
> > knowledge and experience, in an attempt to justify your argument?
>
> Because the content of their post usually warrants it.
>
> > It doesn't make your argument any stronger, just makes you look like a
> > pratt, especially, as it often does, it turns out that the poster either
> > knows more, or has more experience on the subject than yourself.
> >
> How do I know you know you're not lying? Google makes it easy to
> bullshit about technical info.


You don't, but if you really knew as much as you think you do, you wouldn't
find it too difficult to differentiate beween those who have real personal
knowledge and those that don't.
It's quite obvious from previous arguments we've had, that you fall into the
latter category, as far as general mechanical knowhow is concerned.

>
> > I've been an engineer of one sort or another all my life which I've
> > mentioned in previous arguments with you. Something you appear to have
> > forgotten. So overall I've probably had more experience than yourself
with
> > hand tools, seeing as you're now a lorry driver, and have been one for a
> > good number of years apparently.
> >
> And? Not a one trick pony. Unlike you, it seems, I'm capable of doing
> more than one thing at a time.


There you go again. Making unsubstantiated assumptions about my
capabilities.
Whether you're correct or not is beside the point. You simply don't know
enough about me to make such an assumption.


> > No matter. You carry on spouting your often ill advised advice, and
those of
> > us who know better can carry on having a quiet laugh at your expense.
>
> Really?


Yes really. You can't fail to have missed the odd snipe at your dogmatic and
argumentative attitude, when you're confronted with evidence that proves you
wrong.

>
> begin  mike_the_wanker.exe


Conor maxim.
When you have a weak argument, start insulting the poster.
Mike.

On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 21:23:24 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
 wrote:


> And a gas axe.


AKA the blue nosed spannner.

On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 21:23:24 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
 wrote:


> And a gas axe.


AKA the blue nosed spannner.

Conor wrote:

> In article <42f4f55c$0$24039$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>, Mike 
> G says...

>>No matter. You carry on spouting your often ill advised advice, and those of
>>us who know better can carry on having a quiet laugh at your expense.
> 
> Really?


You yourself mentioned Google Conor. It's a work of seconds to find out 
how many times you've been spectacularly wrong in the past.

John

Conor wrote:

> In article <42f4f55c$0$24039$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>, Mike 
> G says...

>>No matter. You carry on spouting your often ill advised advice, and those of
>>us who know better can carry on having a quiet laugh at your expense.
> 
> Really?


You yourself mentioned Google Conor. It's a work of seconds to find out 
how many times you've been spectacularly wrong in the past.

John

In article <42f55aaf$0$14654$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>, Mike 
G says...


> > And? Not a one trick pony. Unlike you, it seems, I'm capable of doing
> > more than one thing at a time.
> 
> There you go again. Making unsubstantiated assumptions about my
> capabilities.


You've just basically told me in your post.



> Yes really. You can't fail to have missed the odd snipe at your dogmatic and
> argumentative attitude, when you're confronted with evidence that proves you
> wrong.
> >
> > begin  mike_the_wanker.exe
> 
> Conor maxim.
> When you have a weak argument, start insulting the poster.
> Mike.
> 

No, I always insult people.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article , John Greystrong says...

> Conor wrote:
> > In article <42f4f55c$0$24039$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>, Mike 
> > G says...
> 
> >>No matter. You carry on spouting your often ill advised advice, and those of
> >>us who know better can carry on having a quiet laugh at your expense.
> > 
> > Really?
> 
> You yourself mentioned Google Conor. It's a work of seconds to find out 
> how many times you've been spectacularly wrong in the past.
> 

As proved by who? Someone whose gone on to google to look up something 
instead of telling me they're wrong from their own personal knowledge? 
Do you think I honestly care about that? Sure, if they actually know 
what they're on about - yes. But most of the wankers just look it up on 
Google. Sorry - doesn't count if you want to have a dig. 

It's quite funny actually. Alot of the things they've not argued that 
I'm wrong about seem to be strangely hard/impossible to find with a 
search engine.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article <42f55aaf$0$14654$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>, Mike 
G says...


> > And? Not a one trick pony. Unlike you, it seems, I'm capable of doing
> > more than one thing at a time.
> 
> There you go again. Making unsubstantiated assumptions about my
> capabilities.


You've just basically told me in your post.



> Yes really. You can't fail to have missed the odd snipe at your dogmatic and
> argumentative attitude, when you're confronted with evidence that proves you
> wrong.
> >
> > begin  mike_the_wanker.exe
> 
> Conor maxim.
> When you have a weak argument, start insulting the poster.
> Mike.
> 

No, I always insult people.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article , John Greystrong says...

> Conor wrote:
> > In article <42f4f55c$0$24039$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>, Mike 
> > G says...
> 
> >>No matter. You carry on spouting your often ill advised advice, and those of
> >>us who know better can carry on having a quiet laugh at your expense.
> > 
> > Really?
> 
> You yourself mentioned Google Conor. It's a work of seconds to find out 
> how many times you've been spectacularly wrong in the past.
> 

As proved by who? Someone whose gone on to google to look up something 
instead of telling me they're wrong from their own personal knowledge? 
Do you think I honestly care about that? Sure, if they actually know 
what they're on about - yes. But most of the wankers just look it up on 
Google. Sorry - doesn't count if you want to have a dig. 

It's quite funny actually. Alot of the things they've not argued that 
I'm wrong about seem to be strangely hard/impossible to find with a 
search engine.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

>> That depends on what you're doing, it's a perfectly useable tool & the
>> right tool for many situations (almost none in the car maintenance area  
>> I
>> do agree). & if all CV tools are the same then the same ought to apply  
>> to
>> adjustable spanners, I mention them solely as a very easily demonstrated
>> example.
>
> A poor example IMO as an adjustable by it's very design, means that any
> great strain is going to damage it, and probably the nut/bolt head into  
> the
> bargain. Regardless of the quality of the alloy it's made from.
>


That's why I chose it as an example, they show up the difference between a  
well made tool & a badly made one much more obviously. The cheap ones  
can't even cope with brass nuts.



>> > Certainly, but how do you know they're not?
>> > Just because they're cheap?
>> > Since when has price been a guarantee of quality?
>>
>> Nope, generally you can tell by inspecting them. & if you can't make
>> handtools that conform to the relevant standards of quality that will  
>> let
>> you stick the standards on your packaging then it's difficult to believe
>> they're any good.
>
> That maybe so, but the fact remains that good strong hand tools can be
> baught that do not have all the certification you refer to.
> Probably cheaply produced in China or one of the other developing far
> eastern countries, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are of poor
> quality.
>>
>> > You are also wrong in making the assumption, that the phrase chrome
>> > vanadium
>> > covers an awfully large number of different alloys. It doesn't. An  
>> alloy
>> > which is classed as chrome vanadium, will contain a relatively high
>> > content
>> > of chromium and vanadium. The precise amount of each has to be within
>> > fixed
>> > percentage limits.
>> >
>>
>> Go on then, what are the limits for calling something CV?
>
> Simple answer. I don't know. I could find out I suppose, but why should  
> I?
> If you choose not to believe me, it doesn't particularly concern me.
> What I do know, because I buy special steels in my job, is that specific
> alloys do have to have quite tight percentages of elements to be  
> classified
> in a general category like chrome vanadium. According to the specific
> application those percentages may vary, or additional elements may be  
> added,
> to alter the alloys characteristics. That for spanners for example,  
> would be
> similar whoever manufactured them. There's little point in making chrome
> vanadium spanners from a composition that's unsuitable for the job. The
> costs would be similar in either case.
>


There's little point in making them without the edges parallel & smooth  
either but a quick glance in the junk box provides plenty of examples of  
both. There's no definition of what CV has to be, other than some CHrome &  
some Vanadium. The softer you make it the quicker & easier it is to  
manufacture.


>> > If you believe that good quality basic hand tools can't be baught
>> > cheaply,
>> > you're wrong. I buy cheap hand tools, not because I can't afford tools
>> > made
>> > by the 'better' manufacturers, but because IME they are equally as  
>> good
>> > quality as tools costing several times more. If they do get stolen or
>> > lost,
>> > it's no great deal. Unlike say Snap-On ones that cost a fortune to buy
> or
>> > replace.
>> >
>>
>> Well personally I would agree that you can pay massively over the odds  
>> for
>> any tools, snapon in particular. But the price difference between the  
>> well
>> made ones isn't very large.
>
> Only if you assume that the ones costing half the price are not well  
> made,
> which IME needn't be the case.
>


I don't assume they aren't, I've found that sometimes they aren't, wheras  
that's extremely rare with a QA approved manufacturer.


>> > If you don't believe me. That after working all my life as an  
>> engineer I
>> > don't know a good tool from a poor one, fair enough. It's your money  
>> and
>> > your loss, not mine if you pay more than you need to for good hand
> tools.
>> > Mike.
>>
>> Super, well personally I'd really love to know where to buy #2 pozi bits
>> cheap that don't disintegrate on the 30th head at 40NM,
>
> My comments and experience are mainly about basic hand tools like  
> spanners,
> screwdrivers etc. I would expect good cheap Pozi-drive bits to be  
> available,
> but I've no personal knowledge of drive bits as I seldom use them.



They're an expendable item that wears out quickly, the lifespan is  
extremely dependent on the original size & the heat treatment  & alloy,  
the unbranded ones literally last less than a 10th of the time of Stanleys  
or Wera's. Or come to that Tengs, which are more expensive than Stanleys.


> I have got some cheap 1/2" impact driver sockets though. 9 IIRC for a  
> set
> of 6 or 7, that have stood up to everything I've thrown at them without
> breaking. Including one being used with a 3/4" impact driver, on a very
> tight crankshaft pulley nut, that my CP 1/2" impact driver couldn't  
> shift.
> Mike.
>




-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

>> That depends on what you're doing, it's a perfectly useable tool & the
>> right tool for many situations (almost none in the car maintenance area  
>> I
>> do agree). & if all CV tools are the same then the same ought to apply  
>> to
>> adjustable spanners, I mention them solely as a very easily demonstrated
>> example.
>
> A poor example IMO as an adjustable by it's very design, means that any
> great strain is going to damage it, and probably the nut/bolt head into  
> the
> bargain. Regardless of the quality of the alloy it's made from.
>


That's why I chose it as an example, they show up the difference between a  
well made tool & a badly made one much more obviously. The cheap ones  
can't even cope with brass nuts.



>> > Certainly, but how do you know they're not?
>> > Just because they're cheap?
>> > Since when has price been a guarantee of quality?
>>
>> Nope, generally you can tell by inspecting them. & if you can't make
>> handtools that conform to the relevant standards of quality that will  
>> let
>> you stick the standards on your packaging then it's difficult to believe
>> they're any good.
>
> That maybe so, but the fact remains that good strong hand tools can be
> baught that do not have all the certification you refer to.
> Probably cheaply produced in China or one of the other developing far
> eastern countries, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are of poor
> quality.
>>
>> > You are also wrong in making the assumption, that the phrase chrome
>> > vanadium
>> > covers an awfully large number of different alloys. It doesn't. An  
>> alloy
>> > which is classed as chrome vanadium, will contain a relatively high
>> > content
>> > of chromium and vanadium. The precise amount of each has to be within
>> > fixed
>> > percentage limits.
>> >
>>
>> Go on then, what are the limits for calling something CV?
>
> Simple answer. I don't know. I could find out I suppose, but why should  
> I?
> If you choose not to believe me, it doesn't particularly concern me.
> What I do know, because I buy special steels in my job, is that specific
> alloys do have to have quite tight percentages of elements to be  
> classified
> in a general category like chrome vanadium. According to the specific
> application those percentages may vary, or additional elements may be  
> added,
> to alter the alloys characteristics. That for spanners for example,  
> would be
> similar whoever manufactured them. There's little point in making chrome
> vanadium spanners from a composition that's unsuitable for the job. The
> costs would be similar in either case.
>


There's little point in making them without the edges parallel & smooth  
either but a quick glance in the junk box provides plenty of examples of  
both. There's no definition of what CV has to be, other than some CHrome &  
some Vanadium. The softer you make it the quicker & easier it is to  
manufacture.


>> > If you believe that good quality basic hand tools can't be baught
>> > cheaply,
>> > you're wrong. I buy cheap hand tools, not because I can't afford tools
>> > made
>> > by the 'better' manufacturers, but because IME they are equally as  
>> good
>> > quality as tools costing several times more. If they do get stolen or
>> > lost,
>> > it's no great deal. Unlike say Snap-On ones that cost a fortune to buy
> or
>> > replace.
>> >
>>
>> Well personally I would agree that you can pay massively over the odds  
>> for
>> any tools, snapon in particular. But the price difference between the  
>> well
>> made ones isn't very large.
>
> Only if you assume that the ones costing half the price are not well  
> made,
> which IME needn't be the case.
>


I don't assume they aren't, I've found that sometimes they aren't, wheras  
that's extremely rare with a QA approved manufacturer.


>> > If you don't believe me. That after working all my life as an  
>> engineer I
>> > don't know a good tool from a poor one, fair enough. It's your money  
>> and
>> > your loss, not mine if you pay more than you need to for good hand
> tools.
>> > Mike.
>>
>> Super, well personally I'd really love to know where to buy #2 pozi bits
>> cheap that don't disintegrate on the 30th head at 40NM,
>
> My comments and experience are mainly about basic hand tools like  
> spanners,
> screwdrivers etc. I would expect good cheap Pozi-drive bits to be  
> available,
> but I've no personal knowledge of drive bits as I seldom use them.



They're an expendable item that wears out quickly, the lifespan is  
extremely dependent on the original size & the heat treatment  & alloy,  
the unbranded ones literally last less than a 10th of the time of Stanleys  
or Wera's. Or come to that Tengs, which are more expensive than Stanleys.


> I have got some cheap 1/2" impact driver sockets though. 9 IIRC for a  
> set
> of 6 or 7, that have stood up to everything I've thrown at them without
> breaking. Including one being used with a 3/4" impact driver, on a very
> tight crankshaft pulley nut, that my CP 1/2" impact driver couldn't  
> shift.
> Mike.
>




-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 03:45:56 +0100, "Mike G" 
wrote:


>If you don't believe me. That after working all my life as an engineer I
>don't know a good tool from a poor one, fair enough.


Negative count alert!
-- 

Ian

On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 03:45:56 +0100, "Mike G" 
wrote:


>If you don't believe me. That after working all my life as an engineer I
>don't know a good tool from a poor one, fair enough.


Negative count alert!
-- 

Ian

On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 21:18:01 +0100, Guy King 
wrote:


>The message 
>from "Moray Cuthill"  contains these words:
>
>> Just a note, set the Mig welder up for 0.6mm wire when you get it, as it'll 
>> make welding thin metal far much easier. 
>
>And, in my experience, use argon/CO2 mix instead of plain CO2.


I agree it's much better but CO2 is adequate. On a job spread over a
long period the rental on the coogar type bottle becomes significant,
CO2 costs about 10 quid for 2kg and there is no rental after the
bottle is acquired.

I tend to take coogar out for a big job and use it quickly, I then
keep CO2 as a stand by.

I'm just about ready for a self darkening wrap around hood, any
recommendations? 

AJH posting from urcm

On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 06:54:27 GMT, "Jim Warren"
 wrote:


>Don't forget this is a very noisy tool at close quarters.  Get some good ear
>defenders unless you like the idea of a whistle in your ears for hours
>afterwards!


They're good for stopping sparks going down ears as well!

The mistake I always make with grinding is melting my overalls in the
spray of sparks without realising it.

AJH posting from urcm

On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 21:18:01 +0100, Guy King 
wrote:


>The message 
>from "Moray Cuthill"  contains these words:
>
>> Just a note, set the Mig welder up for 0.6mm wire when you get it, as it'll 
>> make welding thin metal far much easier. 
>
>And, in my experience, use argon/CO2 mix instead of plain CO2.


I agree it's much better but CO2 is adequate. On a job spread over a
long period the rental on the coogar type bottle becomes significant,
CO2 costs about 10 quid for 2kg and there is no rental after the
bottle is acquired.

I tend to take coogar out for a big job and use it quickly, I then
keep CO2 as a stand by.

I'm just about ready for a self darkening wrap around hood, any
recommendations? 

AJH posting from urcm

On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 06:54:27 GMT, "Jim Warren"
 wrote:


>Don't forget this is a very noisy tool at close quarters.  Get some good ear
>defenders unless you like the idea of a whistle in your ears for hours
>afterwards!


They're good for stopping sparks going down ears as well!

The mistake I always make with grinding is melting my overalls in the
spray of sparks without realising it.

AJH posting from urcm

"AJH"  wrote in message
news:rjqbf1lp7074uhnjm1n2578cdp91cskpm1@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 06:54:27 GMT, "Jim Warren"
>  wrote:
>
> >Don't forget this is a very noisy tool at close quarters.  Get some good
ear
> >defenders unless you like the idea of a whistle in your ears for hours
> >afterwards!
>
> They're good for stopping sparks going down ears as well!
>
> The mistake I always make with grinding is melting my overalls in the
> spray of sparks without realising it.
>
> AJH posting from urcm


I did once set fire to a some rather extra oily overalls with an angle
grinder once. A rather strange sort of jig followed as I put myself out and
I thought a friend who was watching was going to wet himself.

"AJH"  wrote in message
news:rjqbf1lp7074uhnjm1n2578cdp91cskpm1@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 06:54:27 GMT, "Jim Warren"
>  wrote:
>
> >Don't forget this is a very noisy tool at close quarters.  Get some good
ear
> >defenders unless you like the idea of a whistle in your ears for hours
> >afterwards!
>
> They're good for stopping sparks going down ears as well!
>
> The mistake I always make with grinding is melting my overalls in the
> spray of sparks without realising it.
>
> AJH posting from urcm


I did once set fire to a some rather extra oily overalls with an angle
grinder once. A rather strange sort of jig followed as I put myself out and
I thought a friend who was watching was going to wet himself.

"Conor"  wrote in message
news:MPG.1d5fdf42d38aab7098a60b@news.individual.net...

> In article , John Greystrong says...
> > Conor wrote:
> > > In article <42f4f55c$0$24039$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>,
Mike
> > > G says...
> >
> > >>No matter. You carry on spouting your often ill advised advice, and
those of
> > >>us who know better can carry on having a quiet laugh at your expense.
> > >
> > > Really?
> >
> > You yourself mentioned Google Conor. It's a work of seconds to find out
> > how many times you've been spectacularly wrong in the past.
> >
> As proved by who? Someone whose gone on to google to look up something
> instead of telling me they're wrong from their own personal knowledge?
> Do you think I honestly care about that? Sure, if they actually know
> what they're on about - yes. But most of the wankers just look it up on
> Google. Sorry - doesn't count if you want to have a dig.
>
> It's quite funny actually. Alot of the things they've not argued that
> I'm wrong about seem to be strangely hard/impossible to find with a
> search engine.


That is easily explained. You probably were right.
No one is saying you're wrong all the time.
The problem you have on occasion, is that despite being told or pointed to
overwhelming evidence to the contrary, you'll never concede there's even the
slightest possibility that you might be wrong.
Mike.

"AJH"  wrote in message
news:ccqbf1d2mpg77ilf52qbdob08s45vbc57o@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 21:18:01 +0100, Guy King 
> wrote:
>
> >The message 
> >from "Moray Cuthill"  contains these words:
> >
> >> Just a note, set the Mig welder up for 0.6mm wire when you get it, as
it'll
> >> make welding thin metal far much easier.
> >
> >And, in my experience, use argon/CO2 mix instead of plain CO2.
>
> I agree it's much better but CO2 is adequate. On a job spread over a
> long period the rental on the coogar type bottle becomes significant,
> CO2 costs about 10 quid for 2kg and there is no rental after the
> bottle is acquired.
>
> I tend to take coogar out for a big job and use it quickly, I then
> keep CO2 as a stand by.
>
> I'm just about ready for a self darkening wrap around hood, any
> recommendations?


There's a wide choice on eBay from 34.95 BIN, upwards.
I have one of these which I baught about a year ago.
http://tinyurl.com/d5fls
Still working well.
Mike.

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 10:05:44 +0100, Conor 
wrote:


>In article , John Greystrong says...
>> Conor wrote:
>> > In article <42f4f55c$0$24039$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>, Mike 
>> > G says...
>> 
>> >>No matter. You carry on spouting your often ill advised advice, and those of
>> >>us who know better can carry on having a quiet laugh at your expense.
>> > 
>> > Really?
>> 
>> You yourself mentioned Google Conor. It's a work of seconds to find out 
>> how many times you've been spectacularly wrong in the past.
>> 
>As proved by who? Someone whose gone on to google to look up something 
>instead of telling me they're wrong from their own personal knowledge? 
>Do you think I honestly care about that? Sure, if they actually know 
>what they're on about - yes. But most of the wankers just look it up on 
>Google. Sorry - doesn't count if you want to have a dig. 
>
>It's quite funny actually. Alot of the things they've not argued that 
>I'm wrong about seem to be strangely hard/impossible to find with a 
>search engine.



'Conor wrong' yields about 120000 results!
-- 
R
o
o
n
e
y

"I always knew the entire Green party were nutters" - Ken Livingstone

"Conor"  wrote in message
news:MPG.1d5fdf42d38aab7098a60b@news.individual.net...

> In article , John Greystrong says...
> > Conor wrote:
> > > In article <42f4f55c$0$24039$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>,
Mike
> > > G says...
> >
> > >>No matter. You carry on spouting your often ill advised advice, and
those of
> > >>us who know better can carry on having a quiet laugh at your expense.
> > >
> > > Really?
> >
> > You yourself mentioned Google Conor. It's a work of seconds to find out
> > how many times you've been spectacularly wrong in the past.
> >
> As proved by who? Someone whose gone on to google to look up something
> instead of telling me they're wrong from their own personal knowledge?
> Do you think I honestly care about that? Sure, if they actually know
> what they're on about - yes. But most of the wankers just look it up on
> Google. Sorry - doesn't count if you want to have a dig.
>
> It's quite funny actually. Alot of the things they've not argued that
> I'm wrong about seem to be strangely hard/impossible to find with a
> search engine.


That is easily explained. You probably were right.
No one is saying you're wrong all the time.
The problem you have on occasion, is that despite being told or pointed to
overwhelming evidence to the contrary, you'll never concede there's even the
slightest possibility that you might be wrong.
Mike.

"AJH"  wrote in message
news:ccqbf1d2mpg77ilf52qbdob08s45vbc57o@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 21:18:01 +0100, Guy King 
> wrote:
>
> >The message 
> >from "Moray Cuthill"  contains these words:
> >
> >> Just a note, set the Mig welder up for 0.6mm wire when you get it, as
it'll
> >> make welding thin metal far much easier.
> >
> >And, in my experience, use argon/CO2 mix instead of plain CO2.
>
> I agree it's much better but CO2 is adequate. On a job spread over a
> long period the rental on the coogar type bottle becomes significant,
> CO2 costs about 10 quid for 2kg and there is no rental after the
> bottle is acquired.
>
> I tend to take coogar out for a big job and use it quickly, I then
> keep CO2 as a stand by.
>
> I'm just about ready for a self darkening wrap around hood, any
> recommendations?


There's a wide choice on eBay from 34.95 BIN, upwards.
I have one of these which I baught about a year ago.
http://tinyurl.com/d5fls
Still working well.
Mike.

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 10:05:44 +0100, Conor 
wrote:


>In article , John Greystrong says...
>> Conor wrote:
>> > In article <42f4f55c$0$24039$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>, Mike 
>> > G says...
>> 
>> >>No matter. You carry on spouting your often ill advised advice, and those of
>> >>us who know better can carry on having a quiet laugh at your expense.
>> > 
>> > Really?
>> 
>> You yourself mentioned Google Conor. It's a work of seconds to find out 
>> how many times you've been spectacularly wrong in the past.
>> 
>As proved by who? Someone whose gone on to google to look up something 
>instead of telling me they're wrong from their own personal knowledge? 
>Do you think I honestly care about that? Sure, if they actually know 
>what they're on about - yes. But most of the wankers just look it up on 
>Google. Sorry - doesn't count if you want to have a dig. 
>
>It's quite funny actually. Alot of the things they've not argued that 
>I'm wrong about seem to be strangely hard/impossible to find with a 
>search engine.



'Conor wrong' yields about 120000 results!
-- 
R
o
o
n
e
y

"I always knew the entire Green party were nutters" - Ken Livingstone

"Duncanwood"  wrote in message
news:op.su4t0dqi4wom51@amy...

> >> Go on then, what are the limits for calling something CV?
> >
> > Simple answer. I don't know. I could find out I suppose, but why should
> > I?
> > If you choose not to believe me, it doesn't particularly concern me.
> > What I do know, because I buy special steels in my job, is that specific
> > alloys do have to have quite tight percentages of elements to be
> > classified
> > in a general category like chrome vanadium. According to the specific
> > application those percentages may vary, or additional elements may be
> > added,
> > to alter the alloys characteristics. That for spanners for example,
> > would be
> > similar whoever manufactured them. There's little point in making chrome
> > vanadium spanners from a composition that's unsuitable for the job. The
> > costs would be similar in either case.
> >
>
> There's little point in making them without the edges parallel & smooth
> either but a quick glance in the junk box provides plenty of examples of
> both. There's no definition of what CV has to be, other than some CHrome &
> some Vanadium. The softer you make it the quicker & easier it is to
> manufacture.


The difference in cost would be very little IMO. There's little actual
machining on spanners, and finishing would be virtually the same even if the
material were slightly softer.

I referred to these in an earlier post.
http://tinyurl.com/9l9ay
The top 3 are good cheap tools IME. Marked chrome vanadium.
Kamasa is a well known make, and their CV tools are excellent value IMO.
Especially for the home mechanic who can't justify, or doesn't want to spend
a fortune on a good hand tools.
They are cheaper than any alternatives that have been offered in other
posts, and are the sort of tools I've been referring to.
As for quality, I can vouch for them being strong and accurate, as I already
have many similar Kamasa spanners in my toolkit.

The OP asked for advice on buying tools. He also didn't want to spend more
than necessary for good tools. I believe my reply as far as spanners are
concerned, fulfilled that criteria. If he, or anyone else chooses to ignore
my suggestions, fair enough.
Mike.

On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 18:51:02 +0100, Dave Plowman (News)  
 wrote:


> In article <op.su18qogc4wom51@amy>,
>    Duncanwood  wrote:
>> > What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?
>
>> Braking the cheap ones. Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws
>> that remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them
>> by the box load.
>
> No serious car mechanic uses an adjustable spanner. They're for amateurs
> who think they will be of use.
>




As per the original discussion, it's an obvious example of the difference  
between cheap tools & expensive ones. Although I've come across cheap  
spanners that are less use than a decent AJ.

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 13:19:37 +0100, Mike G  wrote:


>
> "AJH"  wrote in message
> news:ccqbf1d2mpg77ilf52qbdob08s45vbc57o@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 21:18:01 +0100, Guy King 
>> wrote:
>>
>> >The message 
>> >from "Moray Cuthill"  contains these  
>> words:
>> >
>> >> Just a note, set the Mig welder up for 0.6mm wire when you get it, as
> it'll
>> >> make welding thin metal far much easier.
>> >
>> >And, in my experience, use argon/CO2 mix instead of plain CO2.
>>
>> I agree it's much better but CO2 is adequate. On a job spread over a
>> long period the rental on the coogar type bottle becomes significant,
>> CO2 costs about 10 quid for 2kg and there is no rental after the
>> bottle is acquired.
>>
>> I tend to take coogar out for a big job and use it quickly, I then
>> keep CO2 as a stand by.
>>
>> I'm just about ready for a self darkening wrap around hood, any
>> recommendations?
>
> There's a wide choice on eBay from 34.95 BIN, upwards.
> I have one of these which I baught about a year ago.
> http://tinyurl.com/d5fls
> Still working well.
> Mike.
>



They're good aren't they. THe only downside I've found is the flood lights  
I use can trigger them, but for the price it's not worth worrying about.

"Duncanwood"  wrote in message
news:op.su4t0dqi4wom51@amy...

> >> Go on then, what are the limits for calling something CV?
> >
> > Simple answer. I don't know. I could find out I suppose, but why should
> > I?
> > If you choose not to believe me, it doesn't particularly concern me.
> > What I do know, because I buy special steels in my job, is that specific
> > alloys do have to have quite tight percentages of elements to be
> > classified
> > in a general category like chrome vanadium. According to the specific
> > application those percentages may vary, or additional elements may be
> > added,
> > to alter the alloys characteristics. That for spanners for example,
> > would be
> > similar whoever manufactured them. There's little point in making chrome
> > vanadium spanners from a composition that's unsuitable for the job. The
> > costs would be similar in either case.
> >
>
> There's little point in making them without the edges parallel & smooth
> either but a quick glance in the junk box provides plenty of examples of
> both. There's no definition of what CV has to be, other than some CHrome &
> some Vanadium. The softer you make it the quicker & easier it is to
> manufacture.


The difference in cost would be very little IMO. There's little actual
machining on spanners, and finishing would be virtually the same even if the
material were slightly softer.

I referred to these in an earlier post.
http://tinyurl.com/9l9ay
The top 3 are good cheap tools IME. Marked chrome vanadium.
Kamasa is a well known make, and their CV tools are excellent value IMO.
Especially for the home mechanic who can't justify, or doesn't want to spend
a fortune on a good hand tools.
They are cheaper than any alternatives that have been offered in other
posts, and are the sort of tools I've been referring to.
As for quality, I can vouch for them being strong and accurate, as I already
have many similar Kamasa spanners in my toolkit.

The OP asked for advice on buying tools. He also didn't want to spend more
than necessary for good tools. I believe my reply as far as spanners are
concerned, fulfilled that criteria. If he, or anyone else chooses to ignore
my suggestions, fair enough.
Mike.

On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 18:51:02 +0100, Dave Plowman (News)  
 wrote:


> In article <op.su18qogc4wom51@amy>,
>    Duncanwood  wrote:
>> > What makes you think only recognised manufacturers make decent tools?
>
>> Braking the cheap ones. Find me a cheap[ Adjustable spanner with jaws
>> that remain as parallel as a Bahco's under pressure & I can shift them
>> by the box load.
>
> No serious car mechanic uses an adjustable spanner. They're for amateurs
> who think they will be of use.
>




As per the original discussion, it's an obvious example of the difference  
between cheap tools & expensive ones. Although I've come across cheap  
spanners that are less use than a decent AJ.

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 13:19:37 +0100, Mike G  wrote:


>
> "AJH"  wrote in message
> news:ccqbf1d2mpg77ilf52qbdob08s45vbc57o@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 21:18:01 +0100, Guy King 
>> wrote:
>>
>> >The message 
>> >from "Moray Cuthill"  contains these  
>> words:
>> >
>> >> Just a note, set the Mig welder up for 0.6mm wire when you get it, as
> it'll
>> >> make welding thin metal far much easier.
>> >
>> >And, in my experience, use argon/CO2 mix instead of plain CO2.
>>
>> I agree it's much better but CO2 is adequate. On a job spread over a
>> long period the rental on the coogar type bottle becomes significant,
>> CO2 costs about 10 quid for 2kg and there is no rental after the
>> bottle is acquired.
>>
>> I tend to take coogar out for a big job and use it quickly, I then
>> keep CO2 as a stand by.
>>
>> I'm just about ready for a self darkening wrap around hood, any
>> recommendations?
>
> There's a wide choice on eBay from 34.95 BIN, upwards.
> I have one of these which I baught about a year ago.
> http://tinyurl.com/d5fls
> Still working well.
> Mike.
>



They're good aren't they. THe only downside I've found is the flood lights  
I use can trigger them, but for the price it's not worth worrying about.

>
> I did once set fire to a some rather extra oily overalls with an angle
> grinder once. A rather strange sort of jig followed as I put myself out
and
> I thought a friend who was watching was going to wet himself.
>
>

With friends like that..............

>
> I did once set fire to a some rather extra oily overalls with an angle
> grinder once. A rather strange sort of jig followed as I put myself out
and
> I thought a friend who was watching was going to wet himself.
>
>

With friends like that..............

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 15:44:51 +0000 (UTC), "SimonJ"  wrote:


>
>>
>> I did once set fire to a some rather extra oily overalls with an angle
>> grinder once. A rather strange sort of jig followed as I put myself out
>and
>> I thought a friend who was watching was going to wet himself.
>>
>>
>With friends like that..............
>


Well, it's better than one who *wouldn't* piss on you if you were on
fire, surely?

:-D
-- 

Ian

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 15:44:51 +0000 (UTC), "SimonJ"  wrote:


>
>>
>> I did once set fire to a some rather extra oily overalls with an angle
>> grinder once. A rather strange sort of jig followed as I put myself out
>and
>> I thought a friend who was watching was going to wet himself.
>>
>>
>With friends like that..............
>


Well, it's better than one who *wouldn't* piss on you if you were on
fire, surely?

:-D
-- 

Ian

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Duncanwood 
saying something like:


>>> I'm just about ready for a self darkening wrap around hood, any
>>> recommendations?
>>
>> There's a wide choice on eBay from 34.95 BIN, upwards.
>> I have one of these which I baught about a year ago.
>> http://tinyurl.com/d5fls
>> Still working well.
>> Mike.
>>
>
>
>They're good aren't they. THe only downside I've found is the flood lights  
>I use can trigger them, but for the price it's not worth worrying about.


I scored on off ebay some months back and have been using it on and off.
Utterly superb invention; I only wish I'd got one years ago - but years
ago they cost an arm and leg.
-- 

Dave
SE6a

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Duncanwood 
saying something like:


>>> I'm just about ready for a self darkening wrap around hood, any
>>> recommendations?
>>
>> There's a wide choice on eBay from 34.95 BIN, upwards.
>> I have one of these which I baught about a year ago.
>> http://tinyurl.com/d5fls
>> Still working well.
>> Mike.
>>
>
>
>They're good aren't they. THe only downside I've found is the flood lights  
>I use can trigger them, but for the price it's not worth worrying about.


I scored on off ebay some months back and have been using it on and off.
Utterly superb invention; I only wish I'd got one years ago - but years
ago they cost an arm and leg.
-- 

Dave
SE6a

"Paul Rooney"  wrote in message
news:nl0cf1pungt6dtmd3q1f294otujp735bd2@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 10:05:44 +0100, Conor 
> wrote:
> >It's quite funny actually. Alot of the things they've not argued that
> >I'm wrong about seem to be strangely hard/impossible to find with a
> >search engine.
>
>
> 'Conor wrong' yields about 120000 results!


Does that mean he's been wrong 120000 times? :-)
Mike.

"Paul Rooney"  wrote in message
news:nl0cf1pungt6dtmd3q1f294otujp735bd2@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 10:05:44 +0100, Conor 
> wrote:
> >It's quite funny actually. Alot of the things they've not argued that
> >I'm wrong about seem to be strangely hard/impossible to find with a
> >search engine.
>
>
> 'Conor wrong' yields about 120000 results!


Does that mean he's been wrong 120000 times? :-)
Mike.

Hi, I am also in process of restoring a Spitfire 1500 -new inner / outer
wings, boot floor, etc, and the most valuable tools used to date are, a
nibbler to cut sheet metal, and a joggler for splicing bits and bobs of
repairs. A decent set of metal clamps also helps with welding.

Regards, Tom

Hi, I am also in process of restoring a Spitfire 1500 -new inner / outer
wings, boot floor, etc, and the most valuable tools used to date are, a
nibbler to cut sheet metal, and a joggler for splicing bits and bobs of
repairs. A decent set of metal clamps also helps with welding.

Regards, Tom

Mike G wrote:


>>I'm just about ready for a self darkening wrap around hood, any
>>recommendations?

> There's a wide choice on eBay from 34.95 BIN, upwards.
> I have one of these which I baught about a year ago.
> http://tinyurl.com/d5fls


I bought a cheap solar powered one off Ebay a couple of years ago from a 
trader in California which seemed a bit risky, but the exchange rate was 
good and his feedback was clean. It arrived very quickly and is 
brilliant. Cost was about 30 pounds including postage, IIRC.

Mike G wrote:


>>I'm just about ready for a self darkening wrap around hood, any
>>recommendations?

> There's a wide choice on eBay from 34.95 BIN, upwards.
> I have one of these which I baught about a year ago.
> http://tinyurl.com/d5fls


I bought a cheap solar powered one off Ebay a couple of years ago from a 
trader in California which seemed a bit risky, but the exchange rate was 
good and his feedback was clean. It arrived very quickly and is 
brilliant. Cost was about 30 pounds including postage, IIRC.

In article <42f601bc$0$3498$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net>, Mike 
G says...


> There's a wide choice on eBay from 34.95 BIN, upwards.
> I have one of these which I baught about a year ago.
> http://tinyurl.com/d5fls
> Still working well.
> Mike.
> 

They're one of those things that once you've had one, you can never go 
back.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article , Paul Rooney 
says...


> 
> 'Conor wrong' yields about 120000 results!
> 

No, really? Couldn't be the fact you used a common use word or that it 
was repeated in quoted text.

-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article <42f6a882$1_2@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, Tom Sharrocks 
says...

> Hi, I am also in process of restoring a Spitfire 1500 -new inner / outer
> wings, boot floor, etc, and the most valuable tools used to date are, a
> nibbler to cut sheet metal, and a joggler for splicing bits and bobs of
> repairs. A decent set of metal clamps also helps with welding.
> 

Have you tried those small ones shaped like U with a screw through the 
middle that are used when welding in arches etc?

-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

>> 'Conor wrong' yields about 120000 results!
>>
> No, really? Couldn't be the fact you used a common use word or that it
> was repeated in quoted text.


Really? Oh.

-- 
Peter

"You're not a real UKRCMer until you've skilfully employed the use of 
sarcasm."

On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:09:50 +0100, Conor 
wrote:


>In article , Paul Rooney 
>says...
>
>> 
>> 'Conor wrong' yields about 120000 results!
>> 
>No, really? Couldn't be the fact you used a common use word or that it 
>was repeated in quoted text.


Conor's not such a common word.
-- 
R
o
o
n
e
y

"I always knew the entire Green party were nutters" - Ken Livingstone

I have used the aircraft type Kleeco skin pins and clamps with great
success. Makes easy work of situations were clamps  not be used.
Tom

"Conor"  wrote in message
news:MPG.1d61bea412288f6098a61d@news.individual.net...

> In article <42f6a882$1_2@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, Tom Sharrocks
> says...
> > Hi, I am also in process of restoring a Spitfire 1500 -new inner / outer
> > wings, boot floor, etc, and the most valuable tools used to date are, a
> > nibbler to cut sheet metal, and a joggler for splicing bits and bobs of
> > repairs. A decent set of metal clamps also helps with welding.
> >
> Have you tried those small ones shaped like U with a screw through the
> middle that are used when welding in arches etc?
>
> --
> Conor
>
> -You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room
> K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article <42f601bc$0$3498$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net>, Mike 
G says...


> There's a wide choice on eBay from 34.95 BIN, upwards.
> I have one of these which I baught about a year ago.
> http://tinyurl.com/d5fls
> Still working well.
> Mike.
> 

They're one of those things that once you've had one, you can never go 
back.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article , Paul Rooney 
says...


> 
> 'Conor wrong' yields about 120000 results!
> 

No, really? Couldn't be the fact you used a common use word or that it 
was repeated in quoted text.

-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article <42f6a882$1_2@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, Tom Sharrocks 
says...

> Hi, I am also in process of restoring a Spitfire 1500 -new inner / outer
> wings, boot floor, etc, and the most valuable tools used to date are, a
> nibbler to cut sheet metal, and a joggler for splicing bits and bobs of
> repairs. A decent set of metal clamps also helps with welding.
> 

Have you tried those small ones shaped like U with a screw through the 
middle that are used when welding in arches etc?

-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

>> 'Conor wrong' yields about 120000 results!
>>
> No, really? Couldn't be the fact you used a common use word or that it
> was repeated in quoted text.


Really? Oh.

-- 
Peter

"You're not a real UKRCMer until you've skilfully employed the use of 
sarcasm."

On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:09:50 +0100, Conor 
wrote:


>In article , Paul Rooney 
>says...
>
>> 
>> 'Conor wrong' yields about 120000 results!
>> 
>No, really? Couldn't be the fact you used a common use word or that it 
>was repeated in quoted text.


Conor's not such a common word.
-- 
R
o
o
n
e
y

"I always knew the entire Green party were nutters" - Ken Livingstone

I have used the aircraft type Kleeco skin pins and clamps with great
success. Makes easy work of situations were clamps  not be used.
Tom

"Conor"  wrote in message
news:MPG.1d61bea412288f6098a61d@news.individual.net...

> In article <42f6a882$1_2@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, Tom Sharrocks
> says...
> > Hi, I am also in process of restoring a Spitfire 1500 -new inner / outer
> > wings, boot floor, etc, and the most valuable tools used to date are, a
> > nibbler to cut sheet metal, and a joggler for splicing bits and bobs of
> > repairs. A decent set of metal clamps also helps with welding.
> >
> Have you tried those small ones shaped like U with a screw through the
> middle that are used when welding in arches etc?
>
> --
> Conor
>
> -You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room
> K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 00:13:41 +0100, Tom Sharrocks  wrote:


> I have used the aircraft type Kleeco skin pins and clamps with great
> success. Makes easy work of situations were clamps  not be used.
> Tom
>



They're also relatively cheap! Which is unusual for aircraft bits but you  
need so many clicos to hold a wing together they're almost a consumable.

In article <dd35k1$gbh$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>, R.N. Robinson
<URL:mailto:ronrob@frumiousbandersnatch.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:


> Stilsons can be useful for dismantling if all else fails.



But then so can a lump hammer. :-)

-- 
AJL

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 00:13:41 +0100, Tom Sharrocks  wrote:


> I have used the aircraft type Kleeco skin pins and clamps with great
> success. Makes easy work of situations were clamps  not be used.
> Tom
>



They're also relatively cheap! Which is unusual for aircraft bits but you  
need so many clicos to hold a wing together they're almost a consumable.

In article <dd35k1$gbh$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>, R.N. Robinson
<URL:mailto:ronrob@frumiousbandersnatch.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:


> Stilsons can be useful for dismantling if all else fails.



But then so can a lump hammer. :-)

-- 
AJL

In article , Paul Rooney 
says...

> On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:09:50 +0100, Conor 
> wrote:
> 
> >In article , Paul Rooney 
> >says...
> >
> >> 
> >> 'Conor wrong' yields about 120000 results!
> >> 
> >No, really? Couldn't be the fact you used a common use word or that it 
> >was repeated in quoted text.
> 
> Conor's not such a common word.
> 

Really? Its a gaelic name. I'm sure there's plenty of Irish who'd 
disagree with you.

-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article , Andy Luckman 
(AJL Electronics) says...

> In article <dd35k1$gbh$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>, R.N. Robinson
> <URL:mailto:ronrob@frumiousbandersnatch.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > Stilsons can be useful for dismantling if all else fails.
> 
> 
> But then so can a lump hammer. :-)
> 
> 

And gas cutting gear.

-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

Conor (conor.turton@gmail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they 
were saying :


>> Conor's not such a common word.

> Really? Its a gaelic name. I'm sure there's plenty of Irish who'd 
> disagree with you.


Isn't it normally Connor with two "N"s, though?

In article , 
Adrian says...

> Conor (conor.turton@gmail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they 
> were saying :
> 
> >> Conor's not such a common word.
> 
> > Really? Its a gaelic name. I'm sure there's plenty of Irish who'd 
> > disagree with you.
> 
> Isn't it normally Connor with two "N"s, though?
> 

Nope - can be any combination.

-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:09:50 +0100, Conor 
wrote:


>In article , Paul Rooney 
>says...
>
>> 
>> 'Conor wrong' yields about 120000 results!
>> 
>No, really? Couldn't be the fact you used a common use word or that it 
>was repeated in quoted text.


'"Conor Turton" wrong' gives 642 - although oddly enough '"Conor
Turton" pillock' only gets me 15...
;-)
-- 

Ian

In article , Paul Rooney 
says...

> On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:09:50 +0100, Conor 
> wrote:
> 
> >In article , Paul Rooney 
> >says...
> >
> >> 
> >> 'Conor wrong' yields about 120000 results!
> >> 
> >No, really? Couldn't be the fact you used a common use word or that it 
> >was repeated in quoted text.
> 
> Conor's not such a common word.
> 

Really? Its a gaelic name. I'm sure there's plenty of Irish who'd 
disagree with you.

-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article , Andy Luckman 
(AJL Electronics) says...

> In article <dd35k1$gbh$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>, R.N. Robinson
> <URL:mailto:ronrob@frumiousbandersnatch.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > Stilsons can be useful for dismantling if all else fails.
> 
> 
> But then so can a lump hammer. :-)
> 
> 

And gas cutting gear.

-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

Conor (conor.turton@gmail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they 
were saying :


>> Conor's not such a common word.

> Really? Its a gaelic name. I'm sure there's plenty of Irish who'd 
> disagree with you.


Isn't it normally Connor with two "N"s, though?

In article , 
Adrian says...

> Conor (conor.turton@gmail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they 
> were saying :
> 
> >> Conor's not such a common word.
> 
> > Really? Its a gaelic name. I'm sure there's plenty of Irish who'd 
> > disagree with you.
> 
> Isn't it normally Connor with two "N"s, though?
> 

Nope - can be any combination.

-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:09:50 +0100, Conor 
wrote:


>In article , Paul Rooney 
>says...
>
>> 
>> 'Conor wrong' yields about 120000 results!
>> 
>No, really? Couldn't be the fact you used a common use word or that it 
>was repeated in quoted text.


'"Conor Turton" wrong' gives 642 - although oddly enough '"Conor
Turton" pillock' only gets me 15...
;-)
-- 

Ian

In article , Ian Dalziel 
says...

> On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:09:50 +0100, Conor 
> wrote:
> 
> >In article , Paul Rooney 
> >says...
> >
> >> 
> >> 'Conor wrong' yields about 120000 results!
> >> 
> >No, really? Couldn't be the fact you used a common use word or that it 
> >was repeated in quoted text.
> 
> '"Conor Turton" wrong' gives 642 - although oddly enough '"Conor
> Turton" pillock' only gets me 15...



Better using both of my names as they always appear somewhere in my 
posts whether in the headers or the sig file.

-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Adrian 
saying something like:


>Conor (conor.turton@gmail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they 
>were saying :
>
>>> Conor's not such a common word.
>
>> Really? Its a gaelic name. I'm sure there's plenty of Irish who'd 
>> disagree with you.
>
>Isn't it normally Connor with two "N"s, though?


As a surname that's a more common spelling. With one 'n' it's a fairly
common name given name here.
-- 

Dave
SE6a

In article , Ian Dalziel 
says...

> On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:09:50 +0100, Conor 
> wrote:
> 
> >In article , Paul Rooney 
> >says...
> >
> >> 
> >> 'Conor wrong' yields about 120000 results!
> >> 
> >No, really? Couldn't be the fact you used a common use word or that it 
> >was repeated in quoted text.
> 
> '"Conor Turton" wrong' gives 642 - although oddly enough '"Conor
> Turton" pillock' only gets me 15...



Better using both of my names as they always appear somewhere in my 
posts whether in the headers or the sig file.

-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Adrian 
saying something like:


>Conor (conor.turton@gmail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they 
>were saying :
>
>>> Conor's not such a common word.
>
>> Really? Its a gaelic name. I'm sure there's plenty of Irish who'd 
>> disagree with you.
>
>Isn't it normally Connor with two "N"s, though?


As a surname that's a more common spelling. With one 'n' it's a fairly
common name given name here.
-- 

Dave
SE6a

In article <dd0n5t$ng9$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, SimonJ
 writes

>Like others have said, be very selective at machine mart, some of their
>stuff is crap.


I went in there the other day to buy a new 3/8" socket set, but
bizarrely all three sets they had skipped 12mm (i.e. sockets were 10,
11, 13, 14 etc). And they had no flat-drive 3/8" socket sets, all
12-point

I'm off to Halfords...
-- 
Ben Mack
Watchfront Electronics - Bespoke R&D - http://www.watchfront.co.uk/
Watchfront Internet    - ADSL, Colo  - http://www.watchfront.net/
Are you bricking it?   - Firewalls   - http://www.firebrick.co.uk/

In article <dd0n5t$ng9$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, SimonJ
 writes

>Like others have said, be very selective at machine mart, some of their
>stuff is crap.


I went in there the other day to buy a new 3/8" socket set, but
bizarrely all three sets they had skipped 12mm (i.e. sockets were 10,
11, 13, 14 etc). And they had no flat-drive 3/8" socket sets, all
12-point

I'm off to Halfords...
-- 
Ben Mack
Watchfront Electronics - Bespoke R&D - http://www.watchfront.co.uk/
Watchfront Internet    - ADSL, Colo  - http://www.watchfront.net/
Are you bricking it?   - Firewalls   - http://www.firebrick.co.uk/

On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 20:42:16 +0100, "Moray Cuthill"
 wrote:



>
>As for where to spend extra on tools, I wouldn't say it's going to be too 
>major a problem with the amount off work you'll be doing with them, but it's 
>always worth while going to the shop and having a look at the vairous tools 
>on offer. Personally I'd recommend going for a trip to your local machine 
>mart, as they'll have all the tools you're likely to need.
>

Although it's generally true to say that you get what you pay for in
tools, the one exception I have is the el cheapo Nu-Tool angle grinder
that cost about 12. My grinders get some real hammer, but this one has
already lasted as long as the three previous Black & Decker/Bosch models
and at a third of the price! Even comes supplied with spare brushes. My
wife bought this one as an emergency replacement but I'd definitely buy
another.
-- 
Regards,  Chris    (Please take out my car to reply by email)     
----1961 Austin A40 Farina----1966 Triumph Herald Estate---
---1967 Riley Elf---1965 Hillman Minx---1969 Morris Minor--
-1972 Mini Clubman estate--1957 Standard 8--1979 Ford Capri
    ********** Please don't email in HTML! **********

On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 09:36:42 +0000 (UTC), "Periproct"
 wrote:


>
>"Jim Warren"  wrote in message
>news:D2EIe.82984$G8.80088@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>>
>> Moray Cuthill  wrote in message
>> news:42f29768@news.greennet.net...
>> <snip>
>> > Initial stripdown-
>> > Angle grinder - on any restoration project, seized bits are going to be
>> > inevitable, and quite often a grinder is the quickest way off removing
>> > seized parts. Ideally a 4 1/2" or 5" electric one is best for this kind
>of
>> > work.
>> <snip again>
>> > Wire brush for angle grinder
>>
>> Don't forget this is a very noisy tool at close quarters.  Get some good
>ear
>> defenders unless you like the idea of a whistle in your ears for hours
>> afterwards!
>
>And good eye protecrion. Saves a trip to hospital to get a sliver of metal
>picked out of your eye as I had once. (One of the little ventilation disks
>was missing and the little sod found its way in via that).


Ditto. The full-face guard is the best type IMO, keeps the sparks off
the rest of your face too.
-- 
Regards,  Chris    (Please take out my car to reply by email)     
----1961 Austin A40 Farina----1966 Triumph Herald Estate---
---1967 Riley Elf---1965 Hillman Minx---1969 Morris Minor--
-1972 Mini Clubman estate--1957 Standard 8--1979 Ford Capri
    ********** Please don't email in HTML! **********

On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:17:20 +0100, Willy Eckerslyke
 wrote:


><uk.rec.cars.maintenance snipped as my newsreader doesn't like it>
>Conor wrote:
>
>> Lets start by getting one thing straight. If your sockets, ratchets and 
>> screwdrivers are anything other than MAC/Snap-On/Britool or at a push 
>> Halfords Pro range, you need to buy new tools. If you don't, you'll 
>> damage the car, damage parts, damage yourself and end up paying twice 
>> as much as that expensive 8 13mm socket by the time you've broken 
>> several saturday market special ones.
>
>13mm? Splutter! We're talking about classics here!
>And 8 quid a socket? If I could afford that much I'd be paying someone 
>else to do the job. Buy secondhand ones at 3 for a quid from 
>autojumbles, and if you're lucky you can find the odd decent make among 
>them.

10 for a set of sockets from Machine Mart, perfectly good enough for
most jobs. Real heavy duty work gets done by the impact sockets from my
air kit.

>
>> Grinder with both grinding,cutting discs,wire brush attachments and 
>> polishing mop head.
>
>The grinder's got to be a variable speed one then. I don't think a 
>polishing mop would last long at 10,000rpm. And wire brushes on single 
>speed grinders really should be avoided or you spend forever pulling 
>bits of wire out of your clothes.

Nu-Tool to the rescue again! 30 for a variable-speed from the tool
stall at the autojumble.
-- 
Regards,  Chris    (Please take out my car to reply by email)     
----1961 Austin A40 Farina----1966 Triumph Herald Estate---
---1967 Riley Elf---1965 Hillman Minx---1969 Morris Minor--
-1972 Mini Clubman estate--1957 Standard 8--1979 Ford Capri
    ********** Please don't email in HTML! **********

My Nu-tool grinder lasted 1/2 hour, wouldn't touch em again.

--
Regards

Paul Tasker

P.S.
If you use the reply button.
Remove the BLIP

In article <i_fNe.3935$Ht5.340@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
   Paul Tasker  wrote:

> My Nu-tool grinder lasted 1/2 hour, wouldn't touch em again.


These low cost tools are unlikely to be tested, so very early failure with
some is to be expected. However, it's likely the average life is ok for a
tool of this price.

I've got a couple of PP ones from B&Q to avoid changing between grinding
discs and de-rusting wheels, and they've been fine.

-- 
*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks.  

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


> These low cost tools are unlikely to be tested, so very early failure with
> some is to be expected. However, it's likely the average life is ok for a
> tool of this price.
> 
> I've got a couple of PP ones from B&Q to avoid changing between grinding
> discs and de-rusting wheels, and they've been fine.


I bought one of their drills once when I was doing a lot of powered wire 
brushing and didn't want to bugger up the bearings of my Bosch. It 
lasted a few months before the bearings went, as I'd expected. They 
swapped it under the guarantee and I finished the job with its 
replacement making it a good return on the 14quid cost.
When that one died, I pulled it apart for a look. The plastic moulding 
around the bearing was too thin and badly designed for the job so it was 
clearly never going to last long.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Paul Tasker"
 saying something like:


>My Nu-tool grinder lasted 1/2 hour, wouldn't touch em again.


Quality varies greatly, it would seem. I have a NuTool bench grinder
that cost about 30quid 4 years ago. It's done everything I ask of it and
still runs fine. It's got a heavy, solid feel to it, not cheapo crap. I
suspect NuTool rebrand stuff from Eastern Europe and China - in fact
this bench grinder reminds me of something made in East Germany.
-- 

Dave
SE6a