A thought that came to me as I passed through Shortlands this evening.
Obviously trains that are fast from Bromley South to Victoria can
either run via Catford or via Herne Hill. Is there any rhyme or reason
to which services take which route? ISTR that Eurostar runs via Herne
Hill wherever possible, and freight takes the Catford loop (though I
have certainly been both ways on Eurostar), but what about SET's
services? Presumably they must be timetabled to run one way or the
other, though obviously there's no way of knowing from the timetable.

This is particularly interesting given the lineside fire in Penge that
closed the Herne Hill route until 6 this evening. I presume there was
enough capacity to run a full service via Catford (minus the Orpington
locals), so why don't all the fast trains run that way so we could have
4tph at West Dulwich? <g>

If Peter Masson is around I'm sure he will know the answer. Sorry if
I'm boring those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about!

Rupert Candy wrote:

The actual rhymes and reasons as to which trains are booked go which
way I have no idea, except to say the two routes are and always have
been alternatives lines, with one group booked one way and one grouped
booked the other.

I do not think there is a method of determining route from times in
timetables - maybe you can from the headcodes but I for sure am way out
of touch with those things these days.

ISTR PSUL used to summarise trains after the rebuilt layout came into
effect but no longer does so :

http://www.psul4all.free-online.co.uk/summer05.htm

regarding, correctly, none of the movements through the juction as
being unusual.

Maybe a search through ther older PSUL lists :

http://www.psul4all.free-online.co.uk/intro.htm

may lead to a hint.

--
Nick

"Rupert Candy"  wrote in message
news:1123105589.596841.12390@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> A thought that came to me as I passed through Shortlands this evening.
> Obviously trains that are fast from Bromley South to Victoria can
> either run via Catford or via Herne Hill. Is there any rhyme or reason
> to which services take which route? ISTR that Eurostar runs via Herne
> Hill wherever possible, and freight takes the Catford loop (though I
> have certainly been both ways on Eurostar), but what about SET's
> services? Presumably they must be timetabled to run one way or the
> other, though obviously there's no way of knowing from the timetable.
>
> This is particularly interesting given the lineside fire in Penge that
> closed the Herne Hill route until 6 this evening. I presume there was
> enough capacity to run a full service via Catford (minus the Orpington
> locals), so why don't all the fast trains run that way so we could have
> 4tph at West Dulwich? <g>
>

The Kent House route is 3-4 minutes faster than the Catford route, much to
my annoyance, because most of the Faversham trains which call at Longfield
are routed via Catford, while, off-peak, the Kent Coast fasts, and the
Maidstone route trains are routed via Kent House. There is no such
consistency in the peaks. The NR timetable still gives headcodes for SET -
among the relevant ones are:
50 Ramsgate via Kent House and Chatham
51 Ramsgate via Catford and Chatham
30 Dover Priory via Kent House and Chatham
31 Dover Priory via Catford and Chatham
92 Faversham via Catford
94 Maidstone/Ashford via Kent House
96 Maidstone/Ashford via Catford
97 Blackfriars - Maidstone/Ashford via Catford
20 Rochester via Kent House
21 Blackfriars - Rochester via Kent House
22 Rochester via Catford
23 Blackfriars - Rochester via Catford

The signaller can switch trains between the two routes, regardless of booked
route, and apparently without telling the driver apart from the feathers at
the junction signal. The headcodes don't seem to distinguish between trains
that use the new diveunder at Shortlands, and those that use the old flat
junction, nor between those routed via Cambria, Canterbury Road, and Brixton
junctions and those that take the Atlantic Lines over the top of Brixton
station. In the up direction the latter usually seem to be routed on the low
level line via Stewarts Lane.

Although there seemed to be a lot of delays and some cancellations on
Tuesday evening after the fire, on Wednesday there did seem to be just about
a full service, though with dfelays when fasts were cauht up behind
Blackfriars - Sevenoaks stoppers.

AIUI the train service specification for the Kent Integrated Franchise will
provide 4tph as far as Beckenham Junction, and in the peaks as far as
Bellingham

Peter

Peter Masson wrote:

Thanks both for comprehensive answers!


> The signaller can switch trains between the two routes, regardless of booked
> route, and apparently without telling the driver apart from the feathers at
> the junction signal.


That's what I was wondering to myself - but then thought "Surely they
must be booked to go one way or another, else how would they be able to
sort out the pathing and plan the timetable?"

[I also recall the IKF document suggesting 4tph between Beckenham Jn
and Victoria, presumably taking up what are currently Eurostar paths.]

"Rupert Candy"  wrote in message
news:1123105589.596841.12390@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

>
> Obviously trains that are fast from Bromley South
> to Victoria can either run via Catford or via Herne Hill.
> Is there any rhyme or reason
> to which services take which route?


The Herne Hill route is faster, so presumably every fast train will go that
way unless it needs to use the Catford route to overtake a stopping service
on the Herne Hill route. So the timetable for stopping services through
Herne Hill will indirectly tell you which way a given fast train will be
booked. Fast trains can be switched by signmalmen to or from the Catford
route if they or the stopping trains are running late.

-- 
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7069/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

"Rupert Candy"  wrote


> That's what I was wondering to myself - but then thought "Surely they
> must be booked to go one way or another, else how would they be able to
> sort out the pathing and plan the timetable?"
>

They are indeed booked one route or the other, and the headcode is set
accordingly, but as John Rowland makes clear, they can be switched if
something is running out of course. The extreme case was the up Night Ferry
in the 1960s. It was booked to depart Dover Marine at 0720 and run via
Canterbury East, Chatham, Sole Street, and Catford, due Victoria 0910. More
often than not it used a path at about 0810, via Headcorn, Knockholt and
Kent House, arriving Victoria around 0938. I don't know whether this
alternative path was actually printed in the WTT, but if it didn't appear on
the Chatham line at Bickley Junction within two or three minutes of 0840 it
was a very good bet it would come down the Tonbridge spur at about 0920.

Peter

In article <dcsrf1$gbn$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,
   Peter Masson  wrote:

> The signaller can switch trains between the two routes, regardless of
> booked route, and apparently without telling the driver apart from the
> feathers at the junction signal. The headcodes don't seem to distinguish
> between trains that use the new diveunder at Shortlands, and those that
> use the old flat junction, nor between those routed via Cambria,
> Canterbury Road, and Brixton junctions and those that take the Atlantic
> Lines over the top of Brixton station. In the up direction the latter
> usually seem to be routed on the low level line via Stewarts Lane.


When I was relief station manager at Victoria, nearly forty years ago, this
was always quoted as one of the places where a driver would take whichever
signal he was offered - presuming that it was not a train booked to call at
intermediate stations.

-- 
David Wild using RISC OS on broadband

"David H Wild"  wrote

>
> When I was relief station manager at Victoria, nearly forty years ago,
this
> was always quoted as one of the places where a driver would take whichever
> signal he was offered - presuming that it was not a train booked to call
at
> intermediate stations.
>

On one of its last runs the Golden Arrow was routed towards Swanley (then
presumably via Maidstone East, or possibly back to No. 1 Boat Train Route at
Sevenoaks via Bat & Ball), instead of being given the feather over the
Tonbridge spur. The train stopped just beyond Bickley Junction, so the
driver could call up Chislehurst Junction box to ask where he was going.

Another example of the use of numerous alternative routes in Kent was the
Margate to Kentish Town excursion that was derailed at Eltham Well Hall. The
driver had apparently stopped somewhere east of Gillingham to ask what his
route was.

Peter

"Rupert Candy"  wrote:


>A thought that came to me as I passed through Shortlands this evening.
>Obviously trains that are fast from Bromley South to Victoria can
>either run via Catford or via Herne Hill. Is there any rhyme or reason
>to which services take which route?


In my experience the fast services to/from Ramsgate/Dover via Chatham
usually take the Herne Hill route and the stoppers to/from Faversham
usually take the Catford route.  This is certainly true of the
peak-time trains I usually commute on, maybe the off-peak services are
different though.

Roy
-- 
"Money is a sign of poverty" - old Culture proverb

Much of the headcode stuff I had worked out, but the timetable shows 54
for the Victoria to Faversham on Sundays, which would seem to imply the
Kent House route, although the journey time is still the same as via
Catford on weekdays.

I haven't been on one on a Sunday to check this.  But now that there is
a stopping Sunday service on the Catford line (rather than one or two
stations kept open and served by the longer distance trains) maybe they
do go via Kent House and are timetabled to take longer just because
it's Sunday?

"MIG"  wrote in message
news:1123198436.781162.94630@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Much of the headcode stuff I had worked out, but the timetable shows 54
> for the Victoria to Faversham on Sundays, which would seem to imply the
> Kent House route, although the journey time is still the same as via
> Catford on weekdays.
>
> I haven't been on one on a Sunday to check this.  But now that there is
> a stopping Sunday service on the Catford line (rather than one or two
> stations kept open and served by the longer distance trains) maybe they
> do go via Kent House and are timetabled to take longer just because
> it's Sunday?
>

I suspect they keep the same advertised times for the hourly trains on
Sundays as for one of the two weekday trains per hour to make it a little
easier for staff and passengers to remember the times. As for the route they
use on Sundays, it's more a case of whichever route Network Rail isn't
digging up. The up Faversham trains on Sundays have headcode 92 (via
Catford), apart from the first two in the morning which are headcode 55 -
presumably these run ecs from Ramsgate before coming in to public service at
Faversham.

Peter

On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:11:30 +0000 (UTC), "Peter Masson"
 wrote:


>
>"Rupert Candy"  wrote
>
>> That's what I was wondering to myself - but then thought "Surely they
>> must be booked to go one way or another, else how would they be able to
>> sort out the pathing and plan the timetable?"
>>
>They are indeed booked one route or the other, and the headcode is set
>accordingly, but as John Rowland makes clear, they can be switched if
>something is running out of course. 


In the 1980s, I worked Hoverspeed trains, which, although they had
fixed paths, could, and often did, go whichever way was free.

For an account of such a trip, see

http://billnot.com/br/dayinthelife.html
-- 
Bill Hayles
http://www.rossrail.com
md@rossrail.com

John Rowland wrote:


> The Herne Hill route is faster, so presumably every fast train will go that
> way unless it needs to use the Catford route to overtake a stopping service
> on the Herne Hill route.


Not the only criteria.

Booked platforms at Victoria can determine route if for some reason
either close in doing a FL <> SL switch or further out doing a Atlantic
line < > Chatham line switch at Voltaire Road or Sheperds Lane would
result in a pathing conflict. These days the timetable is so finely
balanced it can be an issue.

--
Nick

Bill Hayles wrote:

> In the 1980s, I worked Hoverspeed trains, which, although they had
> fixed paths, could, and often did, go whichever way was free.
>
> For an account of such a trip, see
>
> http://billnot.com/br/dayinthelife.html
> -- 



Pretty much the same now with Eurostar it seems.