Do Revenue Inspectors have the same power of arrest as ordinary people
(as defined in Section 24A of Serious Organised Crime and Police Act
2005), or do they have a special power above that to arrest people for
failing to provide a valid ticket?

I believe they have the standard power of arrest as any other person.
This was the case of the security manager at the supermarket I used to
work at.

Failing to provide a valid ticket is not a criminal offence per se and 
therefore NOT arrestable, by an rpi or otherwise!
(leaving a station after having travelled and being given the opportunity to 
pay at any point however IS a criminal act under the theft act and is 
therefore arrestable).
Rpis have the power of arrest for criminal offences only (ie those which 
have a max prison sentence of 5 years or more) just as 'citizens' do. (not 
that any UK resident is a citizen anyway as we are all AFAIAA 'subjects' of 
HM EIIR etc)!
The difference an rpi has is: his/her warrant card which allows them to 
'interview under caution' those whom they suspect of commiting a civil or 
criminal act and reporting this to the relevant authority/department who 
will then consider the 'evidence' given to them and see if this is worth 
persuing through the courts or otherwise.


Timbo

Yes they do. I once I saw one arrest some oik who though travelling
without a ticket was the done thing.

Neill

"Joe Patrick"  wrote in message 
news:1123066519.072230.231240@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Do Revenue Inspectors have the same power of arrest as ordinary people
> (as defined in Section 24A of Serious Organised Crime and Police Act
> 2005), or do they have a special power above that to arrest people for
> failing to provide a valid ticket?
>

Don't know.

KW

On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:34:01 +0100, "tim"
 wrote:

snip


>Rpis have the power of arrest for criminal offences only (ie those which 
>have a max prison sentence of 5 years or more) just as 'citizens' do. (not 
>that any UK resident is a citizen anyway as we are all AFAIAA 'subjects' of 
>HM EIIR etc)!


snip

It quite clearly says "British Citizen" on my passport.


-- 
 
Regards

Mike

mikedotroebuckatgmxdotnet

Don't most railway employees have a power of arrest too ?

(A specific one, not an any person power.)

The Powers of Arrest are covered in the Common Law Act 1969.

I believe Fare Dodgers could be arrest for Fraud. No precise legal definition of fraud exists; many of the offences referred to as fraud are covered by the Theft Acts of 1968 and 1978. Generally, the term is used to describe such acts as deception, bribery, forgery, extortion, corruption, theft, conspiracy, embezzlement, misappropriation, false representation, concealment of material facts and collusion. For practical purposes fraud may be defined as the use of deception with the intention of obtaining an advantage, avoiding an obligation or causing loss to another party.

Causing loss to another party would be the loss of revenue.

Mike Roebuck wrote on Wed, 3 Aug 2005

>On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:34:01 +0100, "tim"
> wrote:
>
>snip
>
>>Rpis have the power of arrest for criminal offences only (ie those which
>>have a max prison sentence of 5 years or more) just as 'citizens' do. (not
>>that any UK resident is a citizen anyway as we are all AFAIAA 'subjects' of
>>HM EIIR etc)!
>
>snip
>
>It quite clearly says "British Citizen" on my passport.


As it does in the British Nationality Act 1981.

Additionally, there's no necessary relation between residence and 
citizenship, nor apparently (PACE s.24) between either of them and the 
ability to make a citizen's arrest.
-- 
Iain Archer            To email, please use Reply-To address

Capture Boy wrote:

> The Powers of Arrest are covered in the Common Law Act 1969.


And they have been updated by Section 110 Serious Organised Crime and
Police Act 2005
24A     	Arrest without warrant: other persons

  	    (1) A person other than a constable may arrest without a
warrant-



      (a) anyone who is in the act of committing an indictable offence;



      (b) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be
committing an indictable offence.

  	    (2) Where an indictable offence has been committed, a person
other than a constable may arrest without a warrant-



      (a) anyone who is guilty of the offence;



      (b) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be
guilty of it.

  	    (3) But the power of summary arrest conferred by subsection (1)
or (2) is exercisable only if-



      (a) the person making the arrest has reasonable grounds for
believing that for any of the reasons mentioned in subsection (4) it is
necessary to arrest the person in question; and



      (b) it appears to the person making the arrest that it is not
reasonably practicable for a constable to make it instead.

  	    (4) The reasons are to prevent the person in question-



      (a) causing physical injury to himself or any other person;



      (b) suffering physical injury;



      (c) causing loss of or damage to property; or



      (d) making off before a constable can assume responsibility for
him."

"Capture Boy"  wrote in message 
news:dcqjj3$7fa$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
The Powers of Arrest are covered in the Common Law Act 1969.

I believe Fare Dodgers could be arrest for Fraud. No precise legal 
definition of fraud exists; many of the offences referred to as fraud are 
covered by the Theft Acts of 1968 and 1978. Generally, the term is used to 
describe such acts as deception, bribery, forgery, extortion, corruption, 
theft, conspiracy, embezzlement, misappropriation, false representation, 
concealment of material facts and collusion. For practical purposes fraud 
may be defined as the use of deception with the intention of obtaining an 
advantage, avoiding an obligation or causing loss to another party.

Causing loss to another party would be the loss of revenue.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Doesn't the "other party" in deception have to be a person and not a 
corporate entity?

KW

"Joe Patrick"  wrote in message 
news:1123088415.280541.163090@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Capture Boy wrote:
>> The Powers of Arrest are covered in the Common Law Act 1969.
>
> And they have been updated by Section 110 Serious Organised Crime and
> Police Act 2005
> 24A     Arrest without warrant: other persons
>
>      (1) A person other than a constable may arrest without a
> warrant-
>
>
>
>      (a) anyone who is in the act of committing an indictable offence;
>
>
>
>      (b) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be
> committing an indictable offence.
>
>      (2) Where an indictable offence has been committed, a person
> other than a constable may arrest without a warrant-
>
>
>
>      (a) anyone who is guilty of the offence;
>
>
>
>      (b) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be
> guilty of it.
>
>      (3) But the power of summary arrest conferred by subsection (1)
> or (2) is exercisable only if-
>
>
>
>      (a) the person making the arrest has reasonable grounds for
> believing that for any of the reasons mentioned in subsection (4) it is
> necessary to arrest the person in question; and
>
>
>
>      (b) it appears to the person making the arrest that it is not
> reasonably practicable for a constable to make it instead.
>
>      (4) The reasons are to prevent the person in question-
>
>
>
>      (a) causing physical injury to himself or any other person;
>
>
>
>      (b) suffering physical injury;
>
>
>
>      (c) causing loss of or damage to property; or
>
>
>
>      (d) making off before a constable can assume responsibility for
> him."
>
>
>

We have been here before and discussed this.

>

PRODUCTION OF TICKETS AND PAYMENT OF FARES



Regulation of Railways Act 1889



Section 5(1)



Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a 
railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket 
showing that his fare is paid or pay his fare for the place whence he 
started, or give the officer or servant his name and address; and in the 
case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not 
exceeding (level 2 on the standard scale).



Section 5(2)



If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver 
up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses (or 
fails), on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give 
his name and address, any officer of the company ...... may detain him until 
he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged 
by due course of law.



The law provides that every passenger must, on demand, produce a ticket to 
indicate that his or her fare has been paid.



OR



Must pay the fare or excess fare due.



OR



Must upon request of an officer or servant of the Board, give his or her 
name and address.

The exact amount must be specified, or if you do not know where he travelled 
from it will suffice to say words to the effect, "if you tell me where you 
travelled from and where you are going, I will tell you the fare due".



Failure to do ALL THREE allows an Inspector to arrest the passenger and 
detain him until he can be dealt with by the Magistrates or otherwise dealt 
with in accordance with the law. This power used to apply also to a 
constable, but as such powers are now available to them under the general 
arrest conditions of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, the specific 
power of arrest within this act for Police was repealed, and now only 
applies to Railway staff.

On 3 Aug 2005 03:55:19 -0700, "Joe Patrick"
 wrote:


>Do Revenue Inspectors have the same power of arrest as ordinary people
>(as defined in Section 24A of Serious Organised Crime and Police Act
>2005),

ITYM s.24 of PACE as amended by the SOCP Act 2005 ? A quick read of
bits of the Bill/Act suggests that SOCPA only addresses those matters
which are loosely defined in its title; what happens WRT railway fare
evasion would appear to be covered by pre-existing legislation.


> or do they have a special power above that to arrest people for
>failing to provide a valid ticket?

I doubt it, but they have the same power of arrest as anyone else if
they encounter someone who is committing an arrestable offence. IMU
there is no power of arrest for merely failing to provide a valid
ticket but what will get you arrested (i.e. prevented from freely
leaving) is failing to provide your name and address when required. If
OTOH they have corroborative evidence (from e.g. a colleague who has
followed a suspect) that a person has been dishonest and has either
attempted to obtain, or has received, some kind of benefit by that
dishonesty then specifically railway laws can be forgotten about and
suspects are in most cases liable to arrest for theft/fraud offences
(in the same way that a store detective actually performs an arrest in
terms of general law).
-- 
                                                             _______
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |\\   //|
 | Charles Ellson: charles@e11son.demon.co.uk        |      | \\ // |
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |  > <  |
                                                            | // \\ |
                                              Alba gu brath |//___\\|

> Regulation of Railways Act 1889
> Section 5


Just what I've been looking for, thanks very much! I'm surprised
they're still using laws that are over 115 years old.

> I doubt it, but they have the same power of arrest as anyone else if
> they encounter someone who is committing an arrestable offence. IMU
> there is no power of arrest for merely failing to provide a valid
> ticket but what will get you arrested.


Indeed, because AFAIAA, not having a ticket is not an indictable, nor
an arrestable offence.

> This power used to apply also to a
> constable, but as such powers are now available to them under the general
> arrest conditions of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, the specific
> power of arrest within this act for Police was repealed, and now only
> applies to Railway staff.


I don't suppose you know if this applies to Police Community Support
Officers with the BTP, do you?

"Joe Patrick"  wrote in message 
news:1123096302.932436.175570@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>> This power used to apply also to a
>> constable, but as such powers are now available to them under the general
>> arrest conditions of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, the 
>> specific
>> power of arrest within this act for Police was repealed, and now only
>> applies to Railway staff.
>
> I don't suppose you know if this applies to Police Community Support
> Officers with the BTP, do you?
>

Are they Railway Staff, I don't think so.

Joe Patrick wrote:

>>Regulation of Railways Act 1889
>>Section 5
> 
> Just what I've been looking for, thanks very much! I'm surprised
> they're still using laws that are over 115 years old.


Last time I looked in the back of the Highway Code there was still some 
references to the 1835 Highways Act.

"Mark Morton"  wrote > >

> > Just what I've been looking for, thanks very much! I'm surprised
> > they're still using laws that are over 115 years old.
>
> Last time I looked in the back of the Highway Code there was still some
> references to the 1835 Highways Act.


AIUI there has recently been new legislation, but until a few years ago
magistrates' power to 'bind over to keep the peace' derived from the
Justices of the Peace Act 1361.

Peter

In article , Charles Ellson 
 writes

>>Do Revenue Inspectors have the same power of arrest as ordinary people
>>(as defined in Section 24A of Serious Organised Crime and Police Act
>>2005),
>ITYM s.24 of PACE as amended by the SOCP Act 2005 ?

Correct.

>A quick read of
>bits of the Bill/Act suggests that SOCPA only addresses those matters
>which are loosely defined in its title; what happens WRT railway fare
>evasion would appear to be covered by pre-existing legislation.


Schedule 7 of SCOPA repeals various things. Among them is:

3 Section 17 of the Railway Regulation Act 1842 (punishment of persons 
guilty of misconduct) shall cease to have effect.

5 (1) The Railways Clauses Consolidation Act 1845 is amended as follows.
   (2) Section 104 (detention of offenders) shall cease to have effect.
   (3) Section 154 (transient offenders) shall cease to have effect.

Schedule 17 then repeals them.

-- 
Clive D.W. Feather                       | Home: 
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work)             | Web:  <http://www.davros.org>
Fax: +44 870 051 9937                    | Work: 
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In article , Joe 
Patrick  writes

>> Regulation of Railways Act 1889
>> Section 5
>Just what I've been looking for, thanks very much! I'm surprised
>they're still using laws that are over 115 years old.


Why not? The law requiring free elections is 730 years old, but we still 
use it. The law stating that only a court can order compensation for 
(civil) wrongs is 8 years older than that!

And, of course, the requirement for trial by jury is 781 years old.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

-- 
Clive D.W. Feather                       | Home: 
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work)             | Web:  <http://www.davros.org>
Fax: +44 870 051 9937                    | Work: 
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

yyOn 3 Aug 2005 12:06:39 -0700, "Joe Patrick"
 wrote:


>> Regulation of Railways Act 1889
>> Section 5
>
>Just what I've been looking for, thanks very much! I'm surprised
>they're still using laws that are over 115 years old.


Why not ? If the general nature of an offence doesn't change then
there's no need to pass a new Act. The jurisdictions in the UK are
Common Law jurisdictions with a fair number of basic offences (e.g.
murder, or in Scotland theft) using laws developed over hundreds of
years without being greatly touched by statutes.
-- 
                                                             _______
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |\\   //|
 | Charles Ellson: charles@e11son.demon.co.uk        |      | \\ // |
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |  > <  |
                                                            | // \\ |
                                              Alba gu brath |//___\\|

yyOn Wed, 3 Aug 2005 20:39:57 +0000 (UTC), "Peter Masson"
 wrote:


>
>"Mark Morton"  wrote > >
>> > Just what I've been looking for, thanks very much! I'm surprised
>> > they're still using laws that are over 115 years old.
>>
>> Last time I looked in the back of the Highway Code there was still some
>> references to the 1835 Highways Act.
>
>AIUI there has recently been new legislation, but until a few years ago
>magistrates' power to 'bind over to keep the peace' derived from the
>Justices of the Peace Act 1361.
>

According to the CPS website the Act is still in use for that purpose.
The oldest English statute in force dates from 1267, see:-
<http://www.swarb.co.uk/acts/1267StatuteofMarlborough_.shtml>
if you're desperate to read it.
-- 
                                                             _______
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |\\   //|
 | Charles Ellson: charles@e11son.demon.co.uk        |      | \\ // |
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |  > <  |
                                                            | // \\ |
                                              Alba gu brath |//___\\|

yyOn Wed, 3 Aug 2005 20:39:19 +0100, "4sub"  wrote:


>
>"Joe Patrick"  wrote in message 
>news:1123096302.932436.175570@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> This power used to apply also to a
>>> constable, but as such powers are now available to them under the general
>>> arrest conditions of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, the 
>>> specific
>>> power of arrest within this act for Police was repealed, and now only
>>> applies to Railway staff.
>>
>> I don't suppose you know if this applies to Police Community Support
>> Officers with the BTP, do you?
>>
>Are they Railway Staff, I don't think so. 
>

The BTP are one of the last active remnants from British Railways and
IMU remain "railway staff" WRT railway byelaws. Don't forget that the
general powers of railway police are derived from transport, not
police, legislation.
-- 
                                                             _______
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |\\   //|
 | Charles Ellson: charles@e11son.demon.co.uk        |      | \\ // |
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |  > <  |
                                                            | // \\ |
                                              Alba gu brath |//___\\|

On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 21:37:14 +0100, "Clive D. W. Feather"
 wrote:


>In article , Charles Ellson 
> writes
>>>Do Revenue Inspectors have the same power of arrest as ordinary people
>>>(as defined in Section 24A of Serious Organised Crime and Police Act
>>>2005),
>>ITYM s.24 of PACE as amended by the SOCP Act 2005 ?
>
>Correct.
>
>>A quick read of
>>bits of the Bill/Act suggests that SOCPA only addresses those matters
>>which are loosely defined in its title; what happens WRT railway fare
>>evasion would appear to be covered by pre-existing legislation.
>
>Schedule 7 of SCOPA repeals various things. Among them is:
>
>3 Section 17 of the Railway Regulation Act 1842 (punishment of persons 
>guilty of misconduct) shall cease to have effect.
>

The Criminal Justice Bill of 2002-2003 has a fuller description of
"punishment of railway employees guilty of misconduct..." so ordinary
fare evaders look like they are another matter.


>5 (1) The Railways Clauses Consolidation Act 1845 is amended as follows.
>   (2) Section 104 (detention of offenders) shall cease to have effect.

S.I.366 of 2002 (Bitton Railway Order) describes that section as
"Refusal to quit carriage at destination." as do other recent S.I.s,
although again neither description would seem to encompass fare
evaders as such.


>   (3) Section 154 (transient offenders) 

Offenders with no fixed abode ?


> shall cease to have effect.
>
>Schedule 17 then repeals them.


It looks like SOCPA is following the modern trend of statutes whose
titles suggest they do one thing while the "small print" does
something else.
-- 
                                                             _______
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |\\   //|
 | Charles Ellson: charles@e11son.demon.co.uk        |      | \\ // |
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |  > <  |
                                                            | // \\ |
                                              Alba gu brath |//___\\|