This morning I was going to Woking on a Gatwick to Woking Open Return
(valid for a month) and the RPI guy started saying that the ticket
wasn't valid because it wasn't the date on the ticket.  He didn't seem
to understand that Open Returns are valid for a month.  Then he swiped
both portions of the ticket on his ticket machine and then claimed that
it had been used in the barriers.  Of course, I stated that if it had
been through the barriers then the barrier would have swallowed the
ticket.  Then he said OK and gave me back my ticket.

I can only assume that the SWT inspector was trying to pull a fast one
by claiming that I had used the ticket before.  It was only when I
stated that the ticket would have been swallowed that he realised he
couldn't get away with it.

How can I prove my ticket hasn't been through the barriers if the RPI
says that the SWT ticket machine says it had?  Potentially I could have
been facing a criminal record if I didn't say that the ticket would
have been swallowed.

"Helen Jones"  wrote in message
news:1123055066.685302.169020@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> This morning I was going to Woking on a Gatwick to Woking Open Return
> (valid for a month) and the RPI guy started saying that the ticket
> wasn't valid because it wasn't the date on the ticket.  He didn't seem
> to understand that Open Returns are valid for a month.  Then he swiped
> both portions of the ticket on his ticket machine and then claimed that
> it had been used in the barriers.  Of course, I stated that if it had
> been through the barriers then the barrier would have swallowed the
> ticket.  Then he said OK and gave me back my ticket.
>
> I can only assume that the SWT inspector was trying to pull a fast one
> by claiming that I had used the ticket before.  It was only when I
> stated that the ticket would have been swallowed that he realised he
> couldn't get away with it.
>
> How can I prove my ticket hasn't been through the barriers if the RPI
> says that the SWT ticket machine says it had?  Potentially I could have
> been facing a criminal record if I didn't say that the ticket would
> have been swallowed.
>

There are very few SORs available for journeys entirely within the Network
SouthEast area - normally only SDRs valid only on the date on the ticket,
plus NAB (Network AwayBreak) valid (off-peak) for 5 days for longer
journeys. There are exceptions, particularly for tickets to Gatwick -
presumably the poor guy wasn't familiar with these.

Peter

On 3 Aug 2005 00:44:26 -0700 someone who may be "Helen Jones"
 wrote this:-


>How can I prove my ticket hasn't been through the barriers if the RPI
>says that the SWT ticket machine says it had?  Potentially I could have
>been facing a criminal record if I didn't say that the ticket would
>have been swallowed.


I hope you have also asked the railway company?


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

> presumably the poor guy wasn't familiar with these.


Yes, the poor flummoxed guy who's never checked an SOR from Brighton to
Edinburgh and was trying very hard to be nice and understanding about
it while he consulted the COC for one of the first ticket mentioned?

Helen Jones wrote:


> This morning I was going to Woking on a Gatwick to Woking Open Return
> (valid for a month) and the RPI guy started saying that the ticket
> wasn't valid because it wasn't the date on the ticket.  He didn't seem
> to understand that Open Returns are valid for a month.  Then he swiped
> both portions of the ticket on his ticket machine and then claimed that
> it had been used in the barriers.


He probably also doesn't know how to use one of those readers. They are 
quite difficult to interpret.


> I can only assume that the SWT inspector was trying to pull a fast one
> by claiming that I had used the ticket before.


Doubtful. He was simply poorly trained as are many of the people I have 
to work with.


> How can I prove my ticket hasn't been through the barriers if the RPI
> says that the SWT ticket machine says it had?  Potentially I could have
> been facing a criminal record if I didn't say that the ticket would
> have been swallowed.


You would not be arrested, and you would not have a criminal record as 
the ticket is valid. Don't panic!

If you ever have this issue again, point them to section E of the 
National Fares Manual where right at the beginning (page E2 I think) it 
states quite clearly that both the outward and return journeys are valid 
for one month.

Hope this helps,
-- 
Rob
http://www.uicstock.org.uk/
To reply, remove zudo

I would have thought that the RPIs would be more knowledgeable than the
average guard regarding train tickets since checking tickets is their
entire job and, according to the job adverts, RPIs seem to get more
money than guards.

If they clearly do not know what the ticket is, they should assume the
ticket is valid rather than making accusations.

Helen Jones wrote on Wed, 3 Aug 2005

>I would have thought that the RPIs would be more knowledgeable than the
>average guard regarding train tickets since checking tickets is their
>entire job and, according to the job adverts, RPIs seem to get more
>money than guards.
>
>If they clearly do not know what the ticket is, they should assume the
>ticket is valid rather than making accusations.
>

As much for their own and employer's benefit as for yours.  If they do 
make a false accusation within the hearing of others, perhaps you should 
tell them that it's both untrue and seriously defamatory, and invite 
them to withdraw it.
-- 
Iain Archer            To email, please use Reply-To address

"Iain Archer"  wrote in message 
news:eDT4hMJOEK8CFwxD@individual.net...

> Helen Jones wrote on Wed, 3 Aug 2005
>>I would have thought that the RPIs would be more knowledgeable than the
>>average guard regarding train tickets since checking tickets is their
>>entire job and, according to the job adverts, RPIs seem to get more
>>money than guards.
>>
>>If they clearly do not know what the ticket is, they should assume the
>>ticket is valid rather than making accusations.
>>
> As much for their own and employer's benefit as for yours.  If they do 
> make a false accusation within the hearing of others, perhaps you should 
> tell them that it's both untrue and seriously defamatory, and invite them 
> to withdraw it.
> -- 
> Iain Archer            To email, please use Reply-To

address

Exactly what I was thinking! How dare a Railway Employee accuse you, in 
public, of attempting fraud.  Sounds like a bit of compensation should be 
applied for.

Michael

It always suprises me that SWT recruit RPI's from outside the
organisation. It would make sense to me to promote guards and booking
office staff to RPI's who would have more experience and far greater
experience of ticketing arrangements, and hence reduce events like
this. I should think it would be easier to recruit and train people for
booking offices and guards jobs.

Helen Jones wrote:


> I would have thought that the RPIs would be more knowledgeable than the
> average guard regarding train tickets since checking tickets is their
> entire job and, according to the job adverts, RPIs seem to get more
> money than guards.
> 
> If they clearly do not know what the ticket is, they should assume the
> ticket is valid rather than making accusations.


If they do not know what the ticket is, they should make efforts to find 
out before making *any* judgement. That is what I always teach my trainees.

Write a polite but firm letter to SWT, they will respond to you. Quote 
the date and approximate time (and train if relevant) for them to see 
who was responsible.

HTH,
-- 
Rob
http://www.uicstock.org.uk/
To reply, remove zudo

Definitely worth writing to SWT IMHO:
HOWEVER: it is VERY unlikely you talked to an RPI FWIW:

FWIW, Guards (and probably booking office staff for that matter) earn FAR,
FAR, MORE than 'Revenue assistants' you are likely to encounter on barrier
lines, hence the job is hardly what most would aspire to!
Most 'guards' in my co., earn 10k a year more than even the inspector
managers let alone the barrier staff!
The (very) senior ticket inspectors (RPI or RPI-M) are likely to wear suits
with name badges and show a shiny warrant card/badge before talking to
anyone officially.
(these are the knowledgable ones whom fare dodgers should rightly fear!)
Unfortunately most revenue barriers are staffed by sub contracted security
staff who are IMHO poorly trained in what is a very complex field (ticket
knowledge).

Most 'guards' (train managers etc) are far more knowledgable about tickets
than barrier staff and most junior RPIs for that matter, they are better
trained, better paid and likely to have a lot of experience in dealing with
all sorts of strange types/routes.
Only the very senior 'suited' RPIs are likely to be better informed (and
most of these come from retiring guards anyhow IME!)

Open tickets are valid on both parts for one month, BUT the outward half has
to be shown with the UNUSED return portion (only generally asked for when
presenting an older than today outward portion OBV!) This rule changed 2
years ago and is written on the ''OPEN return'' (std and 1st) page in the
NFM (fares manual).
If the rtn portion is used or not presented, then the outward half is null
and void!
This rule was changed due to *a lot* of 'suspected' used but unmarked
outward halves coming into booking offices for 'refunds' or being used time
and time again during the month, not so possible now with barriers and
better ticket marking equipment!
HTH!
Timbo



>

The guy has 'Revenue Protection' on his badge and he was dressed in
full SWT kit (waistcoat etc.) - so is there a distinction between
'Revenue Protection' and 'Revenue Protection Inspector'? (the latter
being more senior?)

tim wrote:


> This rule was changed due to *a lot* of 'suspected' used but unmarked
> outward halves coming into booking offices for 'refunds' or being used time
> and time again during the month, not so possible now with barriers and
> better ticket marking equipment!


What do you mean by 'better ticket marking equipment'?  Do you mean
better brands of lipstick stamps?  Or better ways of marking tickets on
the magnetic strip on the back?

I thought that only barriers that could write to the magnetic strip
were tube barriers and that for National Rail barriers the strip was
'read only'?  How can a magnetic strip contain all the data for tube
use as well as all the possible National Rail stations you could be
going through?

> This morning I was going to Woking on a Gatwick to Woking Open Return
> (valid for a month) and the RPI guy started saying that the ticket
> wasn't valid because it wasn't the date on the ticket.  He didn't seem
> to understand that Open Returns are valid for a month.  Then he swiped
> both portions of the ticket on his ticket machine and then claimed that
> it had been used in the barriers.  Of course, I stated that if it had
> been through the barriers then the barrier would have swallowed the
> ticket.  Then he said OK and gave me back my ticket.
>
> I can only assume that the SWT inspector was trying to pull a fast one
> by claiming that I had used the ticket before.  It was only when I
> stated that the ticket would have been swallowed that he realised he
> couldn't get away with it.
>
> How can I prove my ticket hasn't been through the barriers if the RPI
> says that the SWT ticket machine says it had?  Potentially I could have
> been facing a criminal record if I didn't say that the ticket would
> have been swallowed.


I travel frequently with a Goldc upgrade to 1st, and I get this all the 
time.... All I do is open my eyes momentaly and say 'Retail Manual, section 
H'. They usually go away then.

Thomas wrote:

> > This morning I was going to Woking on a Gatwick to Woking Open Return
> > (valid for a month) and the RPI guy started saying that the ticket
> > wasn't valid because it wasn't the date on the ticket.  He didn't seem
> > to understand that Open Returns are valid for a month.  Then he swiped
> > both portions of the ticket on his ticket machine and then claimed that
> > it had been used in the barriers.  Of course, I stated that if it had
> > been through the barriers then the barrier would have swallowed the
> > ticket.  Then he said OK and gave me back my ticket.
> >
> > I can only assume that the SWT inspector was trying to pull a fast one
> > by claiming that I had used the ticket before.  It was only when I
> > stated that the ticket would have been swallowed that he realised he
> > couldn't get away with it.
> >
> > How can I prove my ticket hasn't been through the barriers if the RPI
> > says that the SWT ticket machine says it had?  Potentially I could have
> > been facing a criminal record if I didn't say that the ticket would
> > have been swallowed.
>
> I travel frequently with a Goldc upgrade to 1st, and I get this all the
> time.... All I do is open my eyes momentaly and say 'Retail Manual, section
> H'. They usually go away then.


Got this off Nationalrail.co.uk doesn't know if it applies to this

Open Return*: valid one calendar month from ticket date, with no time
restrictions.

* Note: Availability does not apply to journeys within London & the
South East and most local journeys, where Return tickets are only valid
for travel on the date shown.

swanson_56 wrote:


> Got this off Nationalrail.co.uk doesn't know if it applies to this
> 
> Open Return*: valid one calendar month from ticket date, with no time
> restrictions.
> 
> * Note: Availability does not apply to journeys within London & the
> South East and most local journeys, where Return tickets are only valid
> for travel on the date shown.


What that snippet means is that SORs may not be available for most
local journeys and some journeys within the exNSE region. In those
cases, you will be able to buy SDS or SDR tickets, which are valid on
one day only.

But that wasn't the case here - Helen _had_ a SOR, so the Gatwick to
Woking flow is evidently not included in the exceptions as listed
above ... thus, her ticket was valid any time up to a month after date
of issue. NatRail is _not_ saying that the validity of SOR tickets can
change - that would be very difficult to enforce - merely that for
some journeys you simply can't buy them.

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

Sorry, new to all this so my knowledge might be a bit out but saw this
on same site for restrictions when I put in woking - gatwick

STANDARD OPEN
DESCRIPTION Fully flexible Standard class single or return ticket.

TRAIN OPERATOR Most Train Operating Companies

BOOKING DEADLINES Walk-up ticket: can be purchased either in advance or
on day of travel.

DISCOUNTS Child fares and most Railcard discounts apply

REFUNDS Full refund minus cancellation fee of GBP7.50 if processed
online, or if processed at call centre if wholly unused.
If only the outward portion has been used the cost of applicable single
fare less the GBP7.50 or cancellation fee can be claimed.

CHANGES TO TRAVEL PLANS Usually valid by Any Permitted route or
specified geographic route. If route is to be changed, a GBP 5.00
administration fee is charged.

CONDITIONS Single journey must be on the date on the ticket and
completed by the following day. Outward and Return portions of a return
ticket can be made within one calendar month. Reservations are not
essential but are recommended for longer journeys. The outward portion
of a Standard Open Return ticket is valid only in conjunction with the
unused return portion

BREAK OF JOURNEY Valid for break of journey on outward and return
portion of ticket

My interpretation is that the journey must start on the date shown, but
this conflicts with information on TOC websites, so whos right, If this
is wrong shouldnt ATOC do or say something

swanson_56 wrote:


> CONDITIONS Single journey must be on the date on the ticket and
> completed by the following day. Outward and Return portions of a return
> ticket can be made within one calendar month. Reservations are not
> essential but are recommended for longer journeys. The outward portion
> of a Standard Open Return ticket is valid only in conjunction with the
> unused return portion
....
> My interpretation is that the journey must start on the date shown, but
> this conflicts with information on TOC websites, so whos right, If this
> is wrong shouldnt ATOC do or say something


I don't see anything in what you copied from National Rail there that
indicates the journey must start on the date shown.

It says "Single journeys..." but you can ignore that sentence
completely because you've got a return ticket.

The following sentence says that both the outward and return portions
of a return ticket can be used within one month - no mention of when
your journey must start.

-- 
                          Stevie D
    \\\\\       /////     Bringing dating agencies to the
   \\\\\\\__X__///////    common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

On 3 Aug 2005 15:38:06 -0700, "swanson_56" 
wrote:


>CONDITIONS Single journey must be on the date on the ticket and
>completed by the following day. Outward and Return portions of a return
>ticket can be made within one calendar month. Reservations are not
>essential but are recommended for longer journeys. The outward portion
>of a Standard Open Return ticket is valid only in conjunction with the
>unused return portion

<snip>

>My interpretation is that the journey must start on the date shown, but
>this conflicts with information on TOC websites, so whos right, If this
>is wrong shouldnt ATOC do or say something


Only for a Standard Open *Single*.  Read the above very carefully.

Quite why a SOS doesn't have a month validity to allow a journey to be
broken overnight multiple times I'm not sure, but that's what it says,
and I don't think it conflicts with anything per-se.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Neil Williams wrote:

> On 3 Aug 2005 15:38:06 -0700, "swanson_56" 
> wrote:
>
> >CONDITIONS Single journey must be on the date on the ticket and
> >completed by the following day. Outward and Return portions of a return
> >ticket can be made within one calendar month. Reservations are not
> >essential but are recommended for longer journeys. The outward portion
> >of a Standard Open Return ticket is valid only in conjunction with the
> >unused return portion
>
> <snip>
>
> >My interpretation is that the journey must start on the date shown, but
> >this conflicts with information on TOC websites, so whos right, If this
> >is wrong shouldnt ATOC do or say something
>
> Only for a Standard Open *Single*.  Read the above very carefully.
>

As I said I don't know that much, and as you amd my teachers once said
read the whole thing before you anser it, sorry


> Quite why a SOS doesn't have a month validity to allow a journey to be
> broken overnight multiple times I'm not sure, but that's what it says,
> and I don't think it conflicts with anything per-se.
>
> Neil
>
> --
> Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
> When replying please use neil at the above domain
> 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

"The guy has 'Revenue Protection' on his badge and he was dressed in
full SWT kit (waistcoat etc.) - so is there a distinction between
'Revenue Protection' and 'Revenue Protection Inspector'? (the latter
being more senior?)"

The Revenue Protection Assistant and Revenue Protection inspector
uniform is identical on SWT...
Their role is similar too
The only difference would be that the RPI is trained in dealing with
ticket fraud... That is, they can move to prosecution as an option.
The RPA's, IMHO, are of a lower quality... I was employed by SWT as an
RPI for four years... I spent part of that time as a commercial coach
(Peer trainer).
The standard of our RPA's, in some cases, was deplorable...
Most RPA's use their position as a stepping stone to Guard... Guards
are more highly paid within the SWT structure...
Booking office clerks and station staff are on a relative pittance,
£12,000 in 2001... subject to re-structuring... and this was in
London...

So spare a thought for the humble ticket office pleb... well trained,
informative church-mice as they are, when you're tutting and slamming
your money into their trays on Monday...
LOL

Chris

Definitely worth writing to SWT IMHO:
HOWEVER: it is VERY unlikely you talked to an RPI FWIW:

FWIW, Guards (and probably booking office staff for that matter) earn FAR, 
FAR, MORE than 'Revenue assistants' you are likely to encounter on barrier 
lines, hence the job is hardly what most would aspire to!
Most 'guards' in my co., earn 10k a year more than even the inspector 
managers let alone the barrier staff!
The (very) senior ticket inspectors (RPI or RPI-M) are likely to wear suits 
with name badges and show a shiny warrant card/badge before talking to 
anyone officially.
(these are the knowledgable ones whom fare dodgers should rightly fear!)
Unfortunately most revenue barriers are staffed by sub contracted security 
staff who are IMHO poorly trained in what is a very complex field (ticket 
knowledge).

Most 'guards' (train managers etc) are far more knowledgable about tickets 
than barrier staff and most junior RPIs for that matter, they are better 
trained, better paid and likely to have a lot of experience in dealing with 
all sorts of strange types/routes.
Only the very senior 'suited' RPIs are likely to be better informed (and 
most of these come from retiring guards anyhow IME!)

Open tickets are valid on both parts for one month, BUT the outward half has 
to be shown with the UNUSED return portion (only generally asked for when 
presenting an older than today outward portion OBV!) This rule changed 2 
years ago and is written on the ''OPEN return'' (std and 1st) page in the 
NFM (fares manual).
If the rtn portion is used or not presented, then the outward half is null 
and void!
This rule was changed due to *a lot* of 'suspected' used but unmarked 
outward halves coming into booking offices for 'refunds' or being used time 
and time again during the month, not so possible now with barriers and 
better ticket marking equipment!
HTH!
Timbo



> 

a:better ticket marking equipment -specifically the deutsch-bahn type 'zifa' 
ticket markers which note date/headcode and operators individual number on 
the stamp, these prevent reuse by allowing a ticket stamped to be 
'tracked' -ie operator/refund office knows where/when/who stamped it (if 
used correctly of course!) FGW/Virgin use these.
The lipstick markers are used generally only by fixed inspections -ie 
barrier specific staff -as they only show where the ticket was 
inspected/marked, nothing more.

b:magnetic strip can easily contain data for any journey however 
complex -it's quite flexible in that respect, most rail barriers are read 
only, but not all!
Sportis and Aptis ticket issuing equipment can read ticket mag strips too!

c: ''revenue protection'' on a badge would mean to me:
'bod' i.e. general barrier staff, possibly sub contracted (ie non rail 
staff), although I could be wrong!
A full RPI (a management grade member of rail staff typically) will usually 
wear a suit, lurk in the background (with or without name badge visible 
depending on what operations they are carrying out IYKWIM?!) they will show 
a warrant badge and photo i.d. to introduce themselves, and will generally 
ask a few questions then (if they think they have evidence to believe an 
offence has been committed) pull the person aside, get out a notebook and 
caution the person before asking pertinent questions and taking a statement.


Timbo

tim wrote:


> The lipstick markers are used generally only by fixed inspections -ie 
> barrier specific staff -as they only show where the ticket was 
> inspected/marked, nothing more.


In my experience Central use these things on trains as well, or failing 
that just a biro. Ditto WAGN.

Sam

> I thought that only barriers that could write to the magnetic strip
> were tube barriers and that for National Rail barriers the strip was
> 'read only'?  How can a magnetic strip contain all the data for tube
> use as well as all the possible National Rail stations you could be
> going through?


The Universal Gate 2000, by Cubic Transportation Systems, can write to
the mag strip. See:
http://cubic.com/cts/Publications/DataSheets/Ltr/DATA-UG2000-US.pdf

Sam Kemp (sam_kemp@nospam.email.com) said:

> tim wrote:
>
> > The lipstick markers are used generally only by fixed
> > inspections -ie barrier specific staff -as they only
> > show where the ticket was inspected/marked, nothing
> > more.
>
> In my experience Central use these things on trains as
> well, or failing that just a biro. Ditto WAGN.
>
> Sam


I've had about 50/50 stamp/pen on virgin but even where the stamp has 
been used often the headcode and date has been for a different train all 
together!

-- 
Andrew