Spotted this photo while looking for something else and couldn't help notice 
how blunt the front end is, especially for something designed to run at 
140mph in tunnels.

http://railfoto.fotopic.net/p9602956.html


Is that the final design and if so, are there any more pics/details in the 
public domain?


Dave

Dave wrote:

> Spotted this photo while looking for something else and couldn't help notice
> how blunt the front end is, especially for something designed to run at
> 140mph in tunnels.
>
> http://railfoto.fotopic.net/p9602956.html
>
>
> Is that the final design and if so, are there any more pics/details in the
> public domain?
>
>
> Dave




I remember asking a similar question within a thread fairly recently.
It was later explained to me that the train in the picture is merely a
'shell' to demonstrate the technology being used in the new fleets of
trains. One hopes that the actual train will be more aesthetically
pleasing.

> Spotted this photo while looking for something else and couldn't help 
> notice
> how blunt the front end is, especially for something designed to run at 
> 140mph in tunnels.
>
> http://railfoto.fotopic.net/p9602956.html
>
>
> Is that the final design and if so, are there any more pics/details in the 
> public domain?
>

Sketchy details of 'A' Train on Hitachi site here:- 
http://www.hitachi-rail.com/products/rv/a_train/a_train_features.html

turbo wrote:

>> Spotted this photo while looking for something else and couldn't
>> help notice how blunt the front end is, especially for something
>> designed to run at 140mph in tunnels.
>>
>> http://railfoto.fotopic.net/p9602956.html
>>
>>
>> Is that the final design and if so, are there any more
>> pics/details in the public domain?
>>
> Sketchy details of 'A' Train on Hitachi site here:-
> http://www.hitachi-rail.com/products/rv/a_train/a_train_features.html


I think the "A-train" is Hitachi's generic name for their current EMU
family. Their press release about the CTRL contract includes a picture
showing a much more aerodynamic front.  See
http://www.hitachi-rail.com/rail_now/hot_topics/hot_topics_2004/ctrl.html
(Scroll down for pic)

-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On 30 Jul 2005 10:08:03 -0700, "The InterCity"
 wrote:


>I remember asking a similar question within a thread fairly recently.
>It was later explained to me that the train in the picture is merely a
>'shell' to demonstrate the technology being used in the new fleets of
>trains. One hopes that the actual train will be more aesthetically
>pleasing.


It does appear to me that it is nicely rounded at the top and both
sides, which should do a reasonable job of directing air around the
train in a tunnel rather than just over the top as a traditional
streamlined nose probably would.

I don't believe the intention is for 140mph running in tunnels,
incidentally, BICBW.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

In article , Neil Williams <wensleydale
@pacersplace.org.uk> writes

>On 30 Jul 2005 10:08:03 -0700, "The InterCity"
> wrote:
>
>>I remember asking a similar question within a thread fairly recently.
>>It was later explained to me that the train in the picture is merely a
>>'shell' to demonstrate the technology being used in the new fleets of
>>trains. One hopes that the actual train will be more aesthetically
>>pleasing.
>
>It does appear to me that it is nicely rounded at the top and both
>sides, which should do a reasonable job of directing air around the
>train in a tunnel rather than just over the top as a traditional
>streamlined nose probably would.
>
>I don't believe the intention is for 140mph running in tunnels,
>incidentally, BICBW.
>
>Neil
>

220kph = 137mph (or thereabouts) for tunnels
-- 
John Alexander, <><

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:34:37 +0100, John  wrote:


>220kph = 137mph (or thereabouts) for tunnels


I stand corrected.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Richard J.  wrote in message
news:ZDRGe.79863$G8.68786@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> turbo wrote:
> >> Spotted this photo while looking for something else and couldn't
> >> help notice how blunt the front end is, especially for something
> >> designed to run at 140mph in tunnels.
> >>
> >> http://railfoto.fotopic.net/p9602956.html
> >>
> >>
> >> Is that the final design and if so, are there any more
> >> pics/details in the public domain?
> >>
> > Sketchy details of 'A' Train on Hitachi site here:-
> > http://www.hitachi-rail.com/products/rv/a_train/a_train_features.html
>
> I think the "A-train" is Hitachi's generic name for their current EMU
> family. Their press release about the CTRL contract includes a picture
> showing a much more aerodynamic front.  See
> http://www.hitachi-rail.com/rail_now/hot_topics/hot_topics_2004/ctrl.html
> (Scroll down for pic)
>


Isn't part of the reason for the wedge shaped front ends typified by HSTs
and similar is to direct the air up and over to prevent windows of passing
trains being pushed in?

"Tim Christian"  wrote in message 
news:42ec8adb$0$91498$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...

>
> Richard J.  wrote in message
> news:ZDRGe.79863$G8.68786@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>> turbo wrote:
>> >> Spotted this photo while looking for something else and couldn't
>> >> help notice how blunt the front end is, especially for something
>> >> designed to run at 140mph in tunnels.
>> >>
>> >> http://railfoto.fotopic.net/p9602956.html
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Is that the final design and if so, are there any more
>> >> pics/details in the public domain?
>> >>
>> > Sketchy details of 'A' Train on Hitachi site here:-
>> > http://www.hitachi-rail.com/products/rv/a_train/a_train_features.html
>>
>> I think the "A-train" is Hitachi's generic name for their current EMU
>> family. Their press release about the CTRL contract includes a picture
>> showing a much more aerodynamic front.  See
>> http://www.hitachi-rail.com/rail_now/hot_topics/hot_topics_2004/ctrl.html
>> (Scroll down for pic)
>>
>
> Isn't part of the reason for the wedge shaped front ends typified by HSTs
> and similar is to direct the air up and over to prevent windows of passing
> trains being pushed in?
>


I remember reading at the time that Alst(h)om had done a lot of research 
into the optimum shape for high speed running in the Channel Tunnel and that 
the Eurostar shape we have today was the result of that. How does the bore 
of the London tunnels compare?

Dave

In article , Dave 
writes

>
>"Tim Christian"  wrote in message 
>news:42ec8adb$0$91498$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
>>
>> Richard J.  wrote in message
>> news:ZDRGe.79863$G8.68786@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>>> turbo wrote:
>>> >> Spotted this photo while looking for something else and couldn't
>>> >> help notice how blunt the front end is, especially for something
>>> >> designed to run at 140mph in tunnels.
>>> >>
>>> >> http://railfoto.fotopic.net/p9602956.html
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Is that the final design and if so, are there any more
>>> >> pics/details in the public domain?
>>> >>
>>> > Sketchy details of 'A' Train on Hitachi site here:-
>>> > http://www.hitachi-rail.com/products/rv/a_train/a_train_features.html
>>>
>>> I think the "A-train" is Hitachi's generic name for their current EMU
>>> family. Their press release about the CTRL contract includes a picture
>>> showing a much more aerodynamic front.  See
>>> http://www.hitachi-rail.com/rail_now/hot_topics/hot_topics_2004/ctrl.html
>>> (Scroll down for pic)
>>>
>>
>> Isn't part of the reason for the wedge shaped front ends typified by HSTs
>> and similar is to direct the air up and over to prevent windows of passing
>> trains being pushed in?
>>
>
>I remember reading at the time that Alst(h)om had done a lot of research 
>into the optimum shape for high speed running in the Channel Tunnel and that 
>the Eurostar shape we have today was the result of that. How does the bore 
>of the London tunnels compare?
>
>Dave 
>
>

The bore is slightly smaller than the Chunnel and there are not the
pressure reliefs into the service tunnel. However there are vent shafts
which will help.

-- 
John Alexander, <><

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

"The InterCity"  wrote:

>I remember asking a similar question within a thread fairly recently.
>It was later explained to me that the train in the picture is merely a
>'shell' to demonstrate the technology being used in the new fleets of
>trains. One hopes that the actual train will be more aesthetically
>pleasing.



Oh! for the BR Design Panel (1950s/60s) to be reconvened.

"Richard J."  wrote:


>I think the "A-train" is Hitachi's generic name for their current EMU
>family. Their press release about the CTRL contract includes a picture
>showing a much more aerodynamic front.  See
>http://www.hitachi-rail.com/rail_now/hot_topics/hot_topics_2004/ctrl.html
>(Scroll down for pic)



That looks very good.  Thanks for posting the link.

"Dave"  wrote:


>I remember reading at the time that Alst(h)om had done a lot of research 
>into the optimum shape for high speed running in the Channel Tunnel and that 
>the Eurostar shape we have today was the result of that.



The shape of the Eurostar was achieved by a British industrial design
firm who were given the basic dimensions and overall shape of a TGV to
work from.  They had to make a shape that looked distinctive while
retaining the underlying TGV structure, narrowed and lowered for the
UK loading gauge of course.

The shape is defined rather more by those basic dimensions and TGV
shape than by any requirements specific to the Channel Tunnel.  In
fact the Channel Tunnel bit is probably of no great importance,
because the TGV was already designed to traverse the tunnels on the
LGV routes, and the cross section of the Channel Tunnel is so large as
to have very little influence on the aerodynamics of the train.

That's because the size of the Channel Tunnel was determined by the
kinematic envelope of the lorry and double deck car shuttle trains.
If you look at the massive difference in size between those shuttles
and the Brush Bo-Bo-Bo locos that pull them, it immediately becomes
apparent that the cross section of the Channel Tunnel is very much
larger than the locos, and the even smaller Eurostars.

Tony Polson wrote:

> Oh! for the BR Design Panel (1950s/60s) to be reconvened.




Indeed, British Rail had no problems producing some fine locomotive
designs. However, it was their station building policy which was
worrying, during the struggle to attain the 'modern' image. Still, the
latter has not really improved.

"The InterCity"  wrote:

>Tony Polson wrote:
>> Oh! for the BR Design Panel (1950s/60s) to be reconvened.
>
>Indeed, British Rail had no problems producing some fine locomotive
>designs. However, it was their station building policy which was
>worrying, during the struggle to attain the 'modern' image. Still, the
>latter has not really improved.


True.

"Tony Polson"  wrote in message 
news:jngqe1di4bdji2sgk09mgvso9gd0sl8enl@4ax.com...

> "Richard J."  wrote:
>
>>I think the "A-train" is Hitachi's generic name for their current EMU
>>family. Their press release about the CTRL contract includes a picture
>>showing a much more aerodynamic front.  See
>>http://www.hitachi-rail.com/rail_now/hot_topics/hot_topics_2004/ctrl.html
>>(Scroll down for pic)
>
>
> That looks very good.  Thanks for posting the link.
>
>


Just noticed this pic on the CTRL site: 
http://www.ctrl.co.uk/photos/galleryimage.asp?ID=2193

If you know the geography, you can see that a Eurostar is taking the 
London-bound connection to the classic lines, while a 4 car EMU is heading 
out of town from St Pancras.

Notice how the EMU has a stubby front, just like the picture I started this 
thread with. Picture is dated 8th of June 2005.


Dave

Dave wrote:

> "Tony Polson"  wrote in message
> news:jngqe1di4bdji2sgk09mgvso9gd0sl8enl@4ax.com...
>> "Richard J."  wrote:
>>
>>> I think the "A-train" is Hitachi's generic name for their current
>>> EMU family. Their press release about the CTRL contract includes
>>> a picture showing a much more aerodynamic front.  See
>>>

http://www.hitachi-rail.com/rail_now/hot_topics/hot_topics_2004/ctrl.html

>>> (Scroll down for pic)
>>
>>
>> That looks very good.  Thanks for posting the link.
>>
>>
>
> Just noticed this pic on the CTRL site:
> http://www.ctrl.co.uk/photos/galleryimage.asp?ID=2193
>
> If you know the geography, you can see that a Eurostar is taking the
> London-bound connection to the classic lines, while a 4 car EMU is
> heading out of town from St Pancras.
>
> Notice how the EMU has a stubby front, just like the picture I
> started this thread with. Picture is dated 8th of June 2005.


So what?  That's just a crude artist's impression, produced for a
company that is only indirectly involved with the CTRL DS stock.
-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

>>
>> Notice how the EMU has a stubby front, just like the picture I
>> started this thread with. Picture is dated 8th of June 2005.
>
> So what?  That's just a crude artist's impression, produced for a
> company that is only indirectly involved with the CTRL DS stock.
> -- 
> Richard J.
> (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)
>


The style is the same as all the other CTRL non-computer illustrations I 
have seen, going right back to Thurock Viaduct and Ashford International in 
a school geography magazine circa 1992. All of them have been spot-on for 
what now exists or is gradually coming together...

In article , The
InterCity  wrote:


> Dave wrote:
> > Spotted this photo while looking for something else and couldn't help notice
> > how blunt the front end is, especially for something designed to run at
> > 140mph in tunnels.
> >
> > http://railfoto.fotopic.net/p9602956.html
> >
> > Is that the final design and if so, are there any more pics/details in the
> > public domain?
> 
> I remember asking a similar question within a thread fairly recently.
> It was later explained to me that the train in the picture is merely a
> 'shell' to demonstrate the technology being used in the new fleets of
> trains. One hopes that the actual train will be more aesthetically
> pleasing.


Well I rather like it.  It does seem to have rather a lot of glass and
I can't believe it would meet the energy absorption requirements for
100+mph MUs that Voyager, Pendolino and Adelante are designed for.  The
design referred to in a different part of the thread seems much more
likely.

Sam

Sam