Recently, I wanted to travel from Norwwod Junction into the west end,
so I bought a four-zone One Day Travelcard.  I arrived on the platform
at Norwood Junction just in time to see a Victoria train pulling out.

A member of station staff on the platform saw me, and he said I should
take the next train to East Croydon and get a fast train to Victoria
from there.  Now, I was puzzled because I thought East Croydon was in
zone 5, but when I asked the man if it was allowed, he said it was.  I
asked hiom again, and once again he said it was.

Is this right?  What _are_ the rules about going through an extra zone
on a one-day travelcard?  Was this a side-effect of East Croydon
tramlink station being in zones 3, 4 and 5 simultaneously?  Or was
there some other reason?

On 30 Jul 2005 05:56:34 -0700, "paul.ingerson@gmail.com"
 wrote:


>
>Recently, I wanted to travel from Norwwod Junction into the west end,
>so I bought a four-zone One Day Travelcard.  I arrived on the platform
>at Norwood Junction just in time to see a Victoria train pulling out.
>
>A member of station staff on the platform saw me, and he said I should
>take the next train to East Croydon and get a fast train to Victoria
>from there.  Now, I was puzzled because I thought East Croydon was in
>zone 5, but when I asked the man if it was allowed, he said it was.  I
>asked hiom again, and once again he said it was.
>
>Is this right?  What _are_ the rules about going through an extra zone
>on a one-day travelcard?  Was this a side-effect of East Croydon
>tramlink station being in zones 3, 4 and 5 simultaneously?  Or was
>there some other reason?


Hmmm...unless there is a local easement for Travelcards in that part
of the world, which I doubt, the platform guy was wrong. Normally, the
only time you are allowed to travel through a Zone not covered by your
ticket is if there is engineering work or severe disruption and there
is no other reasonable way to travel to your destination.

oxo99@nospam.btinternet.com wrote:

> On 30 Jul 2005 05:56:34 -0700, "paul.ingerson@gmail.com"
>  wrote:
>
> >
> >Recently, I wanted to travel from Norwwod Junction into the west end,
> >so I bought a four-zone One Day Travelcard.  I arrived on the platform
> >at Norwood Junction just in time to see a Victoria train pulling out.
> >
> >A member of station staff on the platform saw me, and he said I should
> >take the next train to East Croydon and get a fast train to Victoria
> >from there.  Now, I was puzzled because I thought East Croydon was in
> >zone 5, but when I asked the man if it was allowed, he said it was.  I
> >asked hiom again, and once again he said it was.
> >
> >Is this right?  What _are_ the rules about going through an extra zone
> >on a one-day travelcard?  Was this a side-effect of East Croydon
> >tramlink station being in zones 3, 4 and 5 simultaneously?  Or was
> >there some other reason?
>
> Hmmm...unless there is a local easement for Travelcards in that part
> of the world, which I doubt, the platform guy was wrong. Normally, the
> only time you are allowed to travel through a Zone not covered by your
> ticket is if there is engineering work or severe disruption and there
> is no other reasonable way to travel to your destination.


I've never heard anything about any permanent easements for Travelcards
on that route, nor anywhere else in London. As oxo99 has said, if there
ever is an easement it'd be limited to times of engineering work or
severe distruption.

The member of staff would appear to be wrong, pure and simple. Perhaps
it's a common thing for  Norwood station users to take their chances
and go via East Croydon (and I'm sure that few do), but it would not be
a valid journey, and would thus leave you open to a penalty fare (or
even prosecution, although that'd be unlikely).

Norwood Junction station is managed by Southern, so you could always
contact their customer services people and alert them to their
erroneous member of staff. They may well send a memo round to staff
reminding them of the zonal validity of Travelcards.

http://www.southernrailway.com/contact_us/contact_us.shtml

Could it be a valid route for normal tickets - ie not travel cards?

It is not a valid route, however it is often the quickest route,
especially in times of disruption. The member of staff in question
should really have thought to ask which ticket you had purchased prior
to suggesting that particular routing.

On 30 Jul 2005 07:45:55 -0700, dtren@my-deja.com wrote:


>Could it be a valid route for normal tickets - ie not travel cards?


Nope. The journey is not on a direct train; the route is more than 3
miles longer than the shortest; London Terminals is a routeing point
for Norwood Jn, so there are no mapped routes; and there is no
specific easement allowing it.

asdf wrote:

> On 30 Jul 2005 07:45:55 -0700, dtren@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >Could it be a valid route for normal tickets - ie not travel cards?
>
> Nope. The journey is not on a direct train; the route is more than 3
> miles longer than the shortest; London Terminals is a routeing point
> for Norwood Jn, so there are no mapped routes; and there is no
> specific easement allowing it.


An authoratative answer, bravo! I'm too stupid to work out things like
that.

I've read some of the past debates regarding the NFM with amusement.

I sometimes wonder that if one was to adopt the cloak of NFM-speak, yet
replace the correct information with false stuff it'd be possible to
get away with a lot,  simply by blinding any ticket inspector with
(false) routeing science. This probably wouldn't work in places where
guards are on the trains, but I wonder if a some of the revenue
protection inspectors (I'm particularly thinking of any employees of a
third party company such as Securicor) would bother to argue with you.

paul.ingerson@gmail.com wrote:

> 
> Recently, I wanted to travel from Norwwod Junction into the west end,
> so I bought a four-zone One Day Travelcard.  I arrived on the platform
> at Norwood Junction just in time to see a Victoria train pulling out.
> 
> A member of station staff on the platform saw me, and he said I should
> take the next train to East Croydon and get a fast train to Victoria
> from there.  Now, I was puzzled because I thought East Croydon was in
> zone 5, but when I asked the man if it was allowed, he said it was.  I
> asked hiom again, and once again he said it was.
> 
> Is this right?  What _are_ the rules about going through an extra zone
> on a one-day travelcard?  Was this a side-effect of East Croydon
> tramlink station being in zones 3, 4 and 5 simultaneously?  Or was
> there some other reason?



Norwood Junction is my local station and I have been using it for about
30 years. I have certainly, in the past, received similar advice from
platform staff; whether it is legally correct or not I don't know, but
it appears to be custom and practice.

-- 
John Ray, London UK.

"John Ray"  wrote in message
news:42EBCC34.2634@REMOVETHISBITdsl.pipex.com...

> paul.ingerson@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > Recently, I wanted to travel from Norwwod Junction into the west end,
> > so I bought a four-zone One Day Travelcard.  I arrived on the platform
> > at Norwood Junction just in time to see a Victoria train pulling out.
> >
> > A member of station staff on the platform saw me, and he said I should
> > take the next train to East Croydon and get a fast train to Victoria
> > from there.  Now, I was puzzled because I thought East Croydon was in
> > zone 5, but when I asked the man if it was allowed, he said it was.  I
> > asked hiom again, and once again he said it was.
> >
> Norwood Junction is my local station and I have been using it for about
> 30 years. I have certainly, in the past, received similar advice from
> platform staff; whether it is legally correct or not I don't know, but
> it appears to be custom and practice.
>

In the dim and distant past (at least until 1967, but I am not sure if it
continued after that) there were regular 'roundabout' trains which came down
from London Bridge to Norwodd Junction via Forest Hill, then took the spur
to Selhurst, and returned to London Bridge via Streatham Common and Tulse
Hill. Since the spur was closed to passenger trains, passengers from Norwood
Junction to Streatham Common, etc, have to travel via East Croydon, West
Croydon, Tulse Hill or Balham. I wonder whether the 'custom and practice'
arose from that closure.

Peter

Peter Masson wrote:

> >
> In the dim and distant past (at least until 1967, but I am not sure if it
> continued after that) there were regular 'roundabout' trains which came down
> from London Bridge to Norwodd Junction via Forest Hill, then took the spur
> to Selhurst, and returned to London Bridge via Streatham Common and Tulse
> Hill. Since the spur was closed to passenger trains, passengers from Norwood
> Junction to Streatham Common, etc, have to travel via East Croydon, West
> Croydon, Tulse Hill or Balham. I wonder whether the 'custom and practice'
> arose from that closure.


You could very well be right. I had wondered about that myself, but
wasn't sure of the precise details of the routeing.

-- 
John Ray, London UK.

As someone who lived in Streatham & went to school near North Dulwich
station from 1961 until 1966, I can tell you that there was a service,
headcode 90, which went London Bridge - Peckham Rye - Tulse Hill -
Streatham Common - Selhurst - Forest Hill - London Bridge. The reverse
direction had headcode 09. These were usually 4-SUBs. Headcodes 94/49
went/returned via Crystal Palace.

Later on, during 1968 and 1969 I used to visit my mate in Norbury and
found that a half hourly Sunday service consisted of (still green and
very new looking) single BR standard 2-EPBs which went London Bridge -
Tulse Hill - Streatham Common - Selhurst - Norwood Junction - Crystal
Palace - West Norwood - Tulse Hill - London Bridge (then back round the
other way). I can't remember the headcodes.

John Ray wrote:

> Peter Masson wrote:
> > >
> > In the dim and distant past (at least until 1967, but I am not sure if it
> > continued after that) there were regular 'roundabout' trains which came down
> > from London Bridge to Norwodd Junction via Forest Hill, then took the spur
> > to Selhurst, and returned to London Bridge via Streatham Common and Tulse
> > Hill. Since the spur was closed to passenger trains, passengers from Norwood
> > Junction to Streatham Common, etc, have to travel via East Croydon, West
> > Croydon, Tulse Hill or Balham. I wonder whether the 'custom and practice'
> > arose from that closure.
>
> You could very well be right. I had wondered about that myself, but
> wasn't sure of the precise details of the routeing.




Around the early 1980s (don't know if it was regular or an engineering
diversion) I got a train that went from Norwood Junction to Victoria
directly via West Croydon and Wimbledon.  I was going to Sutton Common
and expecting to have to change, but didn't.

The train started from London Bridge advertised as ending at Sutton (as
they often do now) but continued from Sutton to Wimbledon, Tooting,
Balham, Victoria.

For years, the diagrams don't haven't shown this to be even vaguely
possible, and it would require a major redrawing of the diagrams
(unlike adding a spur to Selhurst), to show that the lines from Tooting
and Mitcham Junction join before they split again to Streatham and
Balham.

My 1975 London's Railways is pretty much the same as current diagrams
in that area, so I suspect it may have been a weekend diversion.

Thanks to everyone who answered my question.

paul.ingerson@gmail.com wrote:


> Recently, I wanted to travel from Norwwod Junction into the west end,
> so I bought a four-zone One Day Travelcard.  I arrived on the platform
> at Norwood Junction just in time to see a Victoria train pulling out.
> 
> A member of station staff on the platform saw me, and he said I should
> take the next train to East Croydon and get a fast train to Victoria
> from there.  Now, I was puzzled because I thought East Croydon was in
> zone 5, but when I asked the man if it was allowed, he said it was.  I
> asked hiom again, and once again he said it was.


He was talking rubbish.

East Croydon is, as far as trains are concerned, in zone 5. The fact
that it is in zone 4(5,6) for buses and trams is neither here nor
there, as you weren't on a bus or a tram [1].

Between Norwood Junction and East Croydon, you are unlikely to get
your ticket checked. At East Croydon, you don't need to pass through
the barriers to change platforms, so you are unlikely to get your
ticket checked.

But from East Croydon to Victoria, you might well get your ticket
checked [2] - and if you get a fast train, they will know that you
have come from East Croydon, so have not had a valid ticket, so should
charge you a penalty fare.

[1] Although some would beg to differ if you were on a 455!

[2] Unlikely but far from impossible. I certainly wouldn't want to bet
a penalty fare on it!

-- 
                          Stevie D
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