I only seem to post complaints on this group which must apologise for. I
travel an awful lot by rail and I usually enjoy the experience, except today
where I had an probleVirgin.

This is just to clarify Virgin's conditions of carriage and the NCOC . The
basic story is: joined a train at an unstaffed station,.the guard didn't
bother to sell me a ticket, changed trains with only a few minutes for the
connection onto a Virgin, where the guard didn't want to know and he charged
me the full fare. As far as I can see, the NCOC allows me to try to buy a
ticket from the guard where the station where I started my journey didn't
have a ticket office, so I started my journey at an unstaffed station, even
though I changed trains I was still making the same journey I was entitled
to a discount ticket from the Virgin guard.

I suppose this all boils down to the definition the word "journeyh" in the
ncoc, does it mean the whole trip from start to end station and all the
changes in between, if so then my complaint is valid, or is each train ride
between changes a journey, which just seems daft.

I've filled in the online  complaint form on the Virgin website, details of
the complaint follow below. In this case the difference in fare is only 30p,
but it could be significantly higher and there is a principal at stake. Plus
I like a good arguement.

Regards,

Rob W.
------------------------------------------
Details of Virgin complaint.

I was overcharged this morning o the 7:12 Sheffield to Leeds service.

I travelled from Darnall to Sheffield on the 6:53 Northern service. The
guard did not attempt to sell me a ticket. I had a few minutes in Sheffield
before boarding the 0712. I explained the situation to the guard on this
service and he insisted I paid the full fare. I was told that I could (i)
have gone to find the guard on the northern service. This is good in
principal but I was travelling with luggage and a bicycle that I did not
want to leave unatended in the current security climate or (ii) I should
have used Sheffield ticket office, which would have meant me missing the
connection.

I've checked the national conditions of carriage this morning, it states
that I will be charged full single or return fare unless "you could not buy
a ticket because there was no ticket office at the station where you started
your journey", which is the case because I started my Journey in Darnall not
Sheffield. If I had started my Journey in Sheffield, I would have asked for
a return from Sheffield to Leeds in which case the guard would have been
justified in charging me the full fare. In this case I didn't so I was
overcharged.

Realistically, the first oppertunitiy I had to buy a ticket during my
journey this morning was from the guard on the 7:12 service, a fact which he
refused to accept.

I was charged 9.20 for a Darnall - Leeds return via any permitted route.
The fare I should have been charged was 8.90. As I was expected to pay this
immediatly this morning I expect the same speed in the refund.

Ticket numbers for the journey are:

07379 3408 3208 70

Regards

Rob W
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

robw wrote:


> I've filled in the online  complaint form on the Virgin website, details of
> the complaint follow below. In this case the difference in fare is only 30p,
> but it could be significantly higher and there is a principal at stake. Plus
> I like a good arguement.


This is about 30p? If you used that as principal, as you suggest, in 10 
years you might have 50p. Don't you have better uses for your time?
-- 
Michael Hoffman

robw wrote:


> probleVirgin.


Is that one of those useful Virgin-specific uk.r terms, like 'tiolet'?

=P

>This is about 30p? If you used that as principal, as you suggest, in 10
>years you might have 50p. Don't you have better uses for your time?



As was stated, it was not about 30p.  It's about turning in plenty of
time at your local station to buy the full ticket, knowing that you
have a tight change later.  Is it all one journey or are you expected
to miss your connection because your local station wasn't staffed?

It's a more complicated issue if you have a season ticket covering the
first part of your journey but wanted to get the extension in advance,
because a PTT isn't really appropriate.

robw wrote:

<snip tale of being charged full fare on second leg of journey>

Interesting. Until a few lines before the end I was thinking "No, he's
in the wrong, should have gone and found the guard on the first train"
- but the point about leaving luggage unattended in the current climate
- when endless station announcements exhort us not to - is a fair
point. I've always felt a bit unhappy that the onus is on me to seek
out the guard in these cases, especially here in SWT-land where he
could be 12 coaches away, but to suggest that I take heavy bags through
the train along with me (and a bicycle, in Rob's case) seems
ridiculous.

There would appear to be two pragmatic ways to deal with this issue:

1. Instruct guards in this situation to issue the discounted fare.

2. Change the rules such that if the TOC is unwilling either to operate
ticket barriers or to send guards through the train to collect revenue,
it loses the right to that revenue.

Steve Adams

"Steve"  wrote:

>
>I've always felt a bit unhappy that the onus is on me to seek
>out the guard in these cases, especially here in SWT-land where he
>could be 12 coaches away



I didn't know SWT operated 13-coach trains.

"Rupert Candy"  wrote in message
news:1122632082.736006.293760@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> robw wrote:
>
> > probleVirgin.
>
> Is that one of those useful Virgin-specific uk.r terms, like 'tiolet'?
>
> =P
>


No, it's a symptom of a keyboard wearing out on a Dell D600, if I type too
hard anyhere near the little controller stick thing the laptop thinks it's a
mous click and moves the cursor to where the pointer is. I'm amazed how
legible some of the things I write actually are.

Rob W

"Tony Polson"  wrote in message 
news:3j8ke118feod0ashsl7l9ur84rticctucm@4ax.com...

> "Steve"  wrote:
>>
>>I've always felt a bit unhappy that the onus is on me to seek
>>out the guard in these cases, especially here in SWT-land where he
>>could be 12 coaches away
>
>
> I didn't know SWT operated 13-coach trains.


Consider the case of a passenger who is at the very front of the train and 
the guard who is at the very back of the train. If the train has 12 
carriages, the passenger has to walk 12 carriage-lengths to reach the guard. 
I think that's what Steve was meaning.

"Martin Underwood"  wrote:


>"Tony Polson"  wrote in message 
>news:3j8ke118feod0ashsl7l9ur84rticctucm@4ax.com...
>> "Steve"  wrote:
>>>
>>>I've always felt a bit unhappy that the onus is on me to seek
>>>out the guard in these cases, especially here in SWT-land where he
>>>could be 12 coaches away
>>
>>
>> I didn't know SWT operated 13-coach trains.
>
>Consider the case of a passenger who is at the very front of the train and 
>the guard who is at the very back of the train. If the train has 12 
>carriages, the passenger has to walk 12 carriage-lengths to reach the guard. 
>I think that's what Steve was meaning. 



Do you know anyone who suffers from Asperger's Syndrome?  

A close relative, perhaps?

> Michael Hoffman wrote:

> This is about 30p? If you used that as principal, as you suggest, in 10
> years you might have 50p. Don't you have better uses for your time?
> -- 


This is not about making money for me, this is about being ripped off and
having my rights as a rail passenger and as a customer ignored by a
corporate like Virgin. This is also about the culture in the rail industry
that every passenger is trying it on, we're not. As long as it costs Virgin
more than 30p to deal with my complaint I will have achieved something.

robw wrote:

> "Rupert Candy"  wrote in message
> news:1122632082.736006.293760@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > robw wrote:
> >
> > > probleVirgin.
> >
> > Is that one of those useful Virgin-specific uk.r terms, like 'tiolet'?
> >
> > =P
> >
>
> No, it's a symptom of a keyboard wearing out on a Dell D600, if I type too
> hard anyhere near the little controller stick thing the laptop thinks it's a
> mous click and moves the cursor to where the pointer is. I'm amazed how
> legible some of the things I write actually are.


sorry, I couldn't resist that one...

Tony Polson wrote:


> Do you know anyone who suffers from Asperger's Syndrome?  
> 
> A close relative, perhaps?


What on earth are you going on about?

Tony Polson wrote:


>>Consider the case of a passenger who is at the very front of the train and
>>the guard who is at the very back of the train. If the train has 12
>>carriages, the passenger has to walk 12 carriage-lengths to reach the
>>guard. I think that's what Steve was meaning.
> 
> 
> Do you know anyone who suffers from Asperger's Syndrome?
> 
> A close relative, perhaps?


Do we now close this thread under the local variant of Godwin's Law?

Unless Charlie Hulme objects, I propose it should be named in his honour.
(Message-ID <db0d65$1ba$1@godfrey.mcc.ac.uk>)

robw (rob.w@squeal.org.uk) said:

> I only seem to post complaints on this group which must
> apologise for. I travel an awful lot by rail and I
> usually enjoy the experience, except today where I had an
> probleVirgin.
>


I once went Slateford -> Haymarket (staffed) -> Fife and didn't get 
gripped on the three minute hop between Slateford and Haymarket. The 
person on the way to Fife questioned why I didn't have a ticket, but 
completely understood that it would have been stupid to go up to the 
ticket barriers, pay the barrier guy, go to the machine as the barrier 
guys don't issue tickets *from* Haymarket, pay the machine and return to 
the platform possibly having missed the connection.

Accordingly he sold me a railcard discounted CDR.


-- 
Andrew

"robw"  wrote in message 
news:11ejspd58bne46e@corp.supernews.com...

>I only seem to post complaints on this group which must apologise for. I
> travel an awful lot by rail and I usually enjoy the experience, except 
> today
> where I had an probleVirgin.
>
> This is just to clarify Virgin's conditions of carriage and the NCOC . The
> basic story is: joined a train at an unstaffed station,.the guard didn't
> bother to sell me a ticket, changed trains with only a few minutes for the
> connection onto a Virgin, where the guard didn't want to know and he 
> charged
> me the full fare. As far as I can see, the NCOC allows me to try to buy a
> ticket from the guard where the station where I started my journey didn't
> have a ticket office, so I started my journey at an unstaffed station, 
> even
> though I changed trains I was still making the same journey I was entitled
> to a discount ticket from the Virgin guard.
>
> I suppose this all boils down to the definition the word "journeyh" in the
> ncoc, does it mean the whole trip from start to end station and all the
> changes in between, if so then my complaint is valid, or is each train 
> ride
> between changes a journey, which just seems daft.


A journey is the whole trip. I had this arguement with a guard on a 
Manchester - Euston train. He had announced that he would not sell reduced 
price tickets. I said to him that he had to if I had started my journey from 
an unstaffed halt and had been unable to buy the ticket on the previous 
train. He said that I should, therefore, have bought my ticket at the 
staffed station where I boarded the train, even if it meant missing it and 
haveing to catch the one after. I then got off the train and therefore could 
not continue the arguement (I actually had a ticket, but like the poster, I 
wanted to sort the matter out).

When I got home, I consulted the National Conditions of Carriage. There is 
no requirement to do what the guard suggested and VT MUST sell you a reduced 
price ticket if you are travelling from an unstaffed station and could not 
obtain the ticket on the previous train.

Virgin do not have authority to vary these rules.

Peter Fox

Peter Fox wrote:


> When I got home, I consulted the National Conditions of Carriage. There is 
> no requirement to do what the guard suggested and VT MUST sell you a reduced 
> price ticket if you are travelling from an unstaffed station and could not 
> obtain the ticket on the previous train.
> 
> Virgin do not have authority to vary these rules.


So anyone can get a reduced fare ticket on the train from Manchester
to London simply by saying they started their journey on a Northern
train from Ardwick.

Charlie

"Charlie Hulme"  wrote in message 
news:VVtGe.7780$Aw4.4541@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...

> Peter Fox wrote:
>
>> When I got home, I consulted the National Conditions of Carriage. There 
>> is no requirement to do what the guard suggested and VT MUST sell you a 
>> reduced price ticket if you are travelling from an unstaffed station and 
>> could not obtain the ticket on the previous train.
>>
>> Virgin do not have authority to vary these rules.
>
> So anyone can get a reduced fare ticket on the train from Manchester
> to London simply by saying they started their journey on a Northern
> train from Ardwick.
>
> Charlie
>

Yes, if they can find one that stops there.

Peter

In message , at 10:13:16 on Fri, 29 
Jul 2005, robw  remarked:

>As far as I can see, the NCOC allows me to try to buy a
>ticket from the guard where the station where I started my journey didn't
>have a ticket office, so I started my journey at an unstaffed station, even
>though I changed trains I was still making the same journey I was entitled
>to a discount ticket from the Virgin guard.
>
>I suppose this all boils down to the definition the word "journeyh" in the
>ncoc, does it mean the whole trip from start to end station and all the
>changes in between, if so then my complaint is valid, or is each train ride
>between changes a journey, which just seems daft.


The railway industry needs to be consistent about these things.

In an earlier discussion (about two months ago) the consensus was that 
if I was travelling from KX Thameslink to Luton, and then changing onto 
an MML to Nottingham, all on one ticket, that this was one journey.

On the other hand, about five years ago a man was convicted of fare 
dodging when he failed to break his journey at Reading to buy a ticket 
"at the first opportunity", when travelling from somewhere like Earley 
to Paddington via Reading.
-- 
Roland Perry

Adam Funk  wrote:


>Tony Polson wrote:
>
>>>Consider the case of a passenger who is at the very front of the train and
>>>the guard who is at the very back of the train. If the train has 12
>>>carriages, the passenger has to walk 12 carriage-lengths to reach the
>>>guard. I think that's what Steve was meaning.
>> 
>> 
>> Do you know anyone who suffers from Asperger's Syndrome?
>> 
>> A close relative, perhaps?
>
>Do we now close this thread under the local variant of Godwin's Law?
>
>Unless Charlie Hulme objects, I propose it should be named in his honour.
>(Message-ID <db0d65$1ba$1@godfrey.mcc.ac.uk>)



Do I sense a certain irritation because some self-serving arbitrary
rule is not being followed?

Tony Polson wrote:

> "Martin Underwood"  wrote:
>
>> "Tony Polson"  wrote in message
>> news:3j8ke118feod0ashsl7l9ur84rticctucm@4ax.com...
>>> "Steve"  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've always felt a bit unhappy that the onus is on me to seek
>>>> out the guard in these cases, especially here in SWT-land where
>>>> he could be 12 coaches away
>>>
>>>
>>> I didn't know SWT operated 13-coach trains.
>>
>> Consider the case of a passenger who is at the very front of the
>> train and the guard who is at the very back of the train. If the
>> train has 12 carriages, the passenger has to walk 12
>> carriage-lengths to reach the guard. I think that's what Steve was
>> meaning.
>
>
> Do you know anyone who suffers from Asperger's Syndrome?
>
> A close relative, perhaps?


Is that meant to be an insult?  If so, it seems a particularly
distasteful one.  It reminds me of the way the word "spastic" was
misused to such an extent that the relevant charity was forced to change
its name to Scope.

-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

"Richard J."  wrote:

>
>Is that meant to be an insult? 



Only if you choose to see it as one.

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:44:21 GMT, Charlie Hulme
 wrote:


>So anyone can get a reduced fare ticket on the train from Manchester
>to London simply by saying they started their journey on a Northern
>train from Ardwick.


Oh no! How terrible that would be!

Besides, it would only work if there had been a very recent arrival at
Manchester from Ardwick.

"Tony Polson"  wrote in message
news:sc6le1dpg5tthd6dq9dqvspn76r3msg6o5@4ax.com...

> "Richard J."  wrote:
>>
>>Is that meant to be an insult?
>
>
> Only if you choose to see it as one.


It was directed at me and I certainly interpreted it as an insult - and I
don't know what I did to provoke it.

As it happens during the 20 years I've been working, I've worked with two
people who had Aspergers. Both had very poor social skills (behind their
backs, people referred to them as "weird" or "strange"); they were walking
lookup tables of technical information (one had memorised all the national
and international dialling codes and could translate between code and place;
the other could tell you all the makes and models of cars that were ever
fitted with any given dashboard instrument); if you asked them a technical
question, they would answer it (at length!) and then go on to answer all the 
other related questions that you could have asked.

I hope Tony isn't suggesting that I share any of those character traits. I'm
sure he wouldn't be that offensive.

But Earley has a ticket office, so it's not quite the same thing. It's not
an offence to travel without a ticket; it is an offence to attempt to avoid
payment.

However, as a former Guard myself, there is no doubt in my mind that Virgin
is in the wrong here. The Guard on the paytrain didn't or couldn't get
through the train in time which is not the customer's fault. It is not
reasonable to expect the customer to miss his connection because the railway
has failed to issue a ticket on the first train. People do try things on,
but a bit of common sense seems to be needed here; a reasonable reason for
ticketless travel has been given and the full range of discounted tickets
should have been sold by the Virgin Guard.

Dave

"Roland Perry"  wrote in message
news:vXyQbdjtdo6CFA3E@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk...

> In message , at 10:13:16 on Fri, 29
> Jul 2005, robw  remarked:
> >As far as I can see, the NCOC allows me to try to buy a
> >ticket from the guard where the station where I started my journey didn't
> >have a ticket office, so I started my journey at an unstaffed station,
even
> >though I changed trains I was still making the same journey I was
entitled
> >to a discount ticket from the Virgin guard.
> >
> >I suppose this all boils down to the definition the word "journeyh" in
the
> >ncoc, does it mean the whole trip from start to end station and all the
> >changes in between, if so then my complaint is valid, or is each train
ride
> >between changes a journey, which just seems daft.
>
> The railway industry needs to be consistent about these things.
>
> In an earlier discussion (about two months ago) the consensus was that
> if I was travelling from KX Thameslink to Luton, and then changing onto
> an MML to Nottingham, all on one ticket, that this was one journey.
>
> On the other hand, about five years ago a man was convicted of fare
> dodging when he failed to break his journey at Reading to buy a ticket
> "at the first opportunity", when travelling from somewhere like Earley
> to Paddington via Reading.
> -- 
> Roland Perry

> This is just to clarify Virgin's conditions of carriage and the NCOC . The
> basic story is: joined a train at an unstaffed station,.the guard didn't
> bother to sell me a ticket, changed trains with only a few minutes for the
> connection onto a Virgin, where the guard didn't want to know and he charged
> me the full fare. As far as I can see, the NCOC allows me to try to buy a
> ticket from the guard where the station where I started my journey didn't
> have a ticket office, so I started my journey at an unstaffed station, even
> though I changed trains I was still making the same journey I was entitled
> to a discount ticket from the Virgin guard.


I had a similar problem a while ago with MML. I was travelling from
Hinckley to Sheffield on a Friday evening, Hinckley ticket office
closes at 1pm so I couldn't buy a ticket before I started my journey
and there was no oppurtunity to buy one on the train from Hinckley.
Normally I'd have chance at Leicester but train from Hinckley was about
20 mins late so I only just made my connection.

Wallet and railcard out ready before MML's RPO entered the coach and I
explained my situation but she charged me the full standard fare, after
seething for a while I asked for her name when she next passed through,
and presumably she advised the train manager as he came to speak to me
and agreed with her action. Apparently I should've gone and bought my
ticket, missed the train, waited around in the cold for almost an hour
at Leicester, got to Sheffield late and missed the last bus, etc.
Wonderful to see the railways being convenient and customer focussed.

I wrote a letter the following week and the reply stated that although
their staff had acted correctly they were sending £10 RTV's as a
gesture of goodwill (slightly more than the extra it cost me).

asdf wrote:


> On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:44:21 GMT, Charlie Hulme
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>So anyone can get a reduced fare ticket on the train from Manchester
>>to London simply by saying they started their journey on a Northern
>>train from Ardwick.
> 
> 
> Oh no! How terrible that would be!
> 
> Besides, it would only work if there had been a very recent arrival at
> Manchester from Ardwick.


Define 'very recent' ... this is just a variation on the 'how long
should you allow to buy a ticket' thread.

Charlie

CJ Bennett wrote:


> I wrote a letter the following week and the reply stated that although
> their staff had acted correctly they were sending 10 RTV's as a
> gesture of goodwill (slightly more than the extra it cost me).


What an eccentric thing to do. If the staff acted correctly then
why is a 'gesture of goodwill' required?

Charlie

>>Do you know anyone who suffers from Asperger's Syndrome?
>>
>>A close relative, perhaps?
> 
> 
> Is that meant to be an insult?  If so, it seems a particularly
> distasteful one.  It reminds me of the way the word "spastic" was
> misused to such an extent that the relevant charity was forced to change
> its name to Scope.


You must be new here - I agree with you, but it seems the lads
will have their joke whatever you or I may say.

Charlie

Martin Underwood wrote:


> It was directed at me and I certainly interpreted it as an insult - and I
> don't know what I did to provoke it.


I suspect he was annoyed because he was trying to be a clever dick and 
you pointed out the error in his logic.

Alan

In message <dce78c$kgb$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, at 22:35:41 on Fri, 29 
Jul 2005, Dave Watts  remarked:

>But Earley has a ticket office, so it's not quite the same thing. It's not
>an offence to travel without a ticket; it is an offence to attempt to avoid
>payment.


It was accepted in the case I mentioned that, wherever it was he 
boarded, there hadn't been an opportunity to buy a ticket.


>However, as a former Guard myself, there is no doubt in my mind that Virgin
>is in the wrong here. The Guard on the paytrain didn't or couldn't get
>through the train in time which is not the customer's fault. It is not
>reasonable to expect the customer to miss his connection because the railway
>has failed to issue a ticket on the first train.


That was what, iirc, the Reading case revolved around, and the passenger 
lost the case.


>People do try things on,
>but a bit of common sense seems to be needed here; a reasonable reason for
>ticketless travel has been given and the full range of discounted tickets
>should have been sold by the Virgin Guard.

I agree.

>"Roland Perry"  wrote in message
>news:vXyQbdjtdo6CFA3E@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk...
>> In message , at 10:13:16 on Fri, 29
>> Jul 2005, robw  remarked:
>> >As far as I can see, the NCOC allows me to try to buy a
>> >ticket from the guard where the station where I started my journey didn't
>> >have a ticket office, so I started my journey at an unstaffed station,
>even
>> >though I changed trains I was still making the same journey I was
>entitled
>> >to a discount ticket from the Virgin guard.
>> >
>> >I suppose this all boils down to the definition the word "journeyh" in
>the
>> >ncoc, does it mean the whole trip from start to end station and all the
>> >changes in between, if so then my complaint is valid, or is each train
>ride
>> >between changes a journey, which just seems daft.
>>
>> The railway industry needs to be consistent about these things.
>>
>> In an earlier discussion (about two months ago) the consensus was that
>> if I was travelling from KX Thameslink to Luton, and then changing onto
>> an MML to Nottingham, all on one ticket, that this was one journey.
>>
>> On the other hand, about five years ago a man was convicted of fare
>> dodging when he failed to break his journey at Reading to buy a ticket
>> "at the first opportunity", when travelling from somewhere like Earley
>> to Paddington via Reading.
>> --
>> Roland Perry
>
>


-- 
Roland Perry

In message <_vxGe.16553$Fx3.5219@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>, at 21:49:46 on 
Fri, 29 Jul 2005, Charlie Hulme  remarked:

>> I wrote a letter the following week and the reply stated that although
>> their staff had acted correctly they were sending 10 RTV's as a
>> gesture of goodwill (slightly more than the extra it cost me).
>
>What an eccentric thing to do. If the staff acted correctly then
>why is a 'gesture of goodwill' required?


Presumably because higher management recognised that "the law is an ass" 
in the particular circumstances described.
-- 
Roland Perry

CJ Bennett wrote:

> Apparently I should've gone and bought my
> ticket, missed the train, waited around in the cold for almost an hour
> at Leicester, got to Sheffield late and missed the last bus, etc.
> Wonderful to see the railways being convenient and customer focussed.


What if, by forcing you to buy a ticket at an interchange station, you 
miss the last train of the day or the only train of the day or you would 
have to wait for an inordinate amount of time before the next train?

I'm thinking something like Burton-upon-Trent to London, changing at 
Tamworth where there can be a 7 hour wait between trains to London 
(thanks Virgin!).

-- 
Jonathan Stott
Canterbury Weather: http://www.canterburyweather.co.uk/
Reverse my e-mail address to reply by e-mail

"CJ Bennett"  wrote in message 
news:1122673563.257501.318650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

> This is just to clarify Virgin's conditions of carriage and the NCOC . The
> basic story is: joined a train at an unstaffed station,.the guard didn't
> bother to sell me a ticket, changed trains with only a few minutes for the
> connection onto a Virgin, where the guard didn't want to know and he 
> charged
> me the full fare. As far as I can see, the NCOC allows me to try to buy a
> ticket from the guard where the station where I started my journey didn't
> have a ticket office, so I started my journey at an unstaffed station, 
> even
> though I changed trains I was still making the same journey I was entitled
> to a discount ticket from the Virgin guard.


I had a similar problem a while ago with MML. I was travelling from
Hinckley to Sheffield on a Friday evening, Hinckley ticket office
closes at 1pm so I couldn't buy a ticket before I started my journey
and there was no oppurtunity to buy one on the train from Hinckley.
Normally I'd have chance at Leicester but train from Hinckley was about
20 mins late so I only just made my connection.

Wallet and railcard out ready before MML's RPO entered the coach and I
explained my situation but she charged me the full standard fare, after
seething for a while I asked for her name when she next passed through,
and presumably she advised the train manager as he came to speak to me
and agreed with her action. Apparently I should've gone and bought my
ticket, missed the train, waited around in the cold for almost an hour
at Leicester, got to Sheffield late and missed the last bus, etc.
Wonderful to see the railways being convenient and customer focussed.

I wrote a letter the following week and the reply stated that although
their staff had acted correctly they were sending 10 RTV's as a
gesture of goodwill (slightly more than the extra it cost me).
They clearly did not act correctly according to the conditions of carriage.

Peter Fox

In message <dcfaod$k43$1@oheron.kent.ac.uk>, at 08:38:23 on Sat, 30 Jul 
2005, Jonathan Stott  remarked:

>I'm thinking something like Burton-upon-Trent to London, changing at 
>Tamworth where there can be a 7 hour wait between trains to London 
>(thanks Virgin!).


Is that a 7 hour wait for any train, or just for a Virgin one?

-- 
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

>> I'm thinking something like Burton-upon-Trent to London, changing at 
>> Tamworth where there can be a 7 hour wait between trains to London 
>> (thanks Virgin!).
> 
> Is that a 7 hour wait for any train, or just for a Virgin one?


For the next direct train to London. If you missed it, you'd have to get 
back on the train and go to Birmingham and change there or double back 
and change at Derby.

-- 
Jonathan Stott
Canterbury Weather: http://www.canterburyweather.co.uk/
Reverse my e-mail address to reply by e-mail

"robw"  wrote in message
news:11ekeb47sh5vt11@corp.supernews.com...

> > Michael Hoffman wrote:
>
> > This is about 30p? If you used that as principal, as you suggest, in 10
> > years you might have 50p. Don't you have better uses for your time?
> > --
>
> This is not about making money for me, this is about being ripped off and
> having my rights as a rail passenger and as a customer ignored by a
> corporate like Virgin. This is also about the culture in the rail industry
> that every passenger is trying it on, we're not. As long as it costs
Virgin
> more than 30p to deal with my complaint I will have achieved something.
>
>

And they then have to recoup the costs of that by putting ticket prices up
in the future...

Nick

In message <dcfdtm$miq$1@oheron.kent.ac.uk>, at 09:32:24 on Sat, 30 Jul 
2005, Jonathan Stott  remarked:

>>> I'm thinking something like Burton-upon-Trent to London, changing at 
>>>Tamworth where there can be a 7 hour wait between trains to London 
>>>(thanks Virgin!).
>>  Is that a 7 hour wait for any train, or just for a Virgin one?
>
>For the next direct train to London. If you missed it, you'd have to 
>get back on the train and go to Birmingham and change there or double 
>back and change at Derby.


Seems like a fairly high risk strategy to attempt to make the connection 
in the first place.

Everyone is well aware of the 30 minute checkin for budget airlines, but 
wouldn't you check in that little bit sooner if you knew the next flight 
was in three days, rather than three hours?
-- 
Roland Perry

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:46:54 UTC, "Peter Fox" 
 wrote:

: I had a similar problem a while ago with MML. I was travelling from
: Hinckley to Sheffield on a Friday evening, Hinckley ticket office
: closes at 1pm so I couldn't buy a ticket before I started my journey
: and there was no oppurtunity to buy one on the train from Hinckley.

I recently took the train from Lockerbie to Marsden. Lockerbie ticket 
office was closed. The first Virgin SC apologised for not being able 
to sell me a ticket - machine out of order - and asked me to buy one 
from the second. She was only on from Preston to Wigan and as I got 
off apologized for not having had time to sell me a ticket (I 
introduced myself and my problem to both of them). Both Wigan 
Northwestern and Wigan Wallgate ticket offices were closed. I could 
find no ticket selling staff on the Wigan to Marsden train and no 
ticket check happened. Marsden station is unstaffed....

Sorry, railway system, but I did try!

Ian


--

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:08:44 UTC, Michael Hoffman 
<cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:

: robw wrote:
: 
: > I've filled in the online  complaint form on the Virgin website, details of
: > the complaint follow below. In this case the difference in fare is only 30p,
: > but it could be significantly higher and there is a principal at stake. Plus
: > I like a good arguement.
: 
: This is about 30p? If you used that as principal, as you suggest, in 10 
: years you might have 50p. Don't you have better uses for your time?

I have just taken some time to get my local council to give Stagecoach
a good spanking for failing to comply with their contractual 
requirements on ticket interchangeability. Sure, the friend of mine 
who was forced by a snotty Stagecoach driver to buy a new ticket as 
well as the perfectly valid one already held - issued by another 
operator on a connecting service - only lost a quid or two. The 
principle was worth establishing, though.

Ian

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:00:43 UTC, "Nick Pedley" 
 wrote:

: And they then have to recoup the costs of that by putting ticket prices up
: in the future...

Better not complain about anything, ever, to anyone then.

Ian

--

Nick Pedley wrote:
   :

> Virgin
> 
>>more than 30p to deal with my complaint I will have achieved something.
>>
> 
> And they then have to recoup the costs of that by putting ticket prices up
> in the future...


At 23:15 last night, both ticket windows at Manchester Piccadilly has 
signs saying "position closed". I meant to take a photo, but had to run 
to get my train.

The anomonly I suffer from is caused by getting the 20:48 from 
Stalybridge to Manchester and the 23:19 back.

Stalybridge ticket office closes around 20:00 and we have no machines.

If I can get a ticket on the train in, it costs 1.05 for a Cheap 
Evening Return.

If not, I have to buy an Evening Ranger at Piccadilly (1.35) as the 
CER's stop at 21:00. (The Ranger is valid until 02:30 am !)

If, as last night, Virgin can't be bothered to sell me a ticket, I can 
only get a standard single from a machine (or on the train) for 2.20.

Admittedly the fare structure is complicated, you really need to print 
out http://atoc.org/traveltrade/manuals/nfm/northwesto.pdf and carry it 
with you !

Even thetrainline gets it wrong as it doen't seem to be programmed with 
the PTE specials.

(Rant over, as it turned out last night, the TM didn't venture down the 
train as far as me on the way home, so total cost was free !  Swings and 
roundabouts I suppose :-)

"Ian Johnston"  wrote >

> I recently took the train from Lockerbie to Marsden. Lockerbie ticket
> office was closed. The first Virgin SC apologised for not being able
> to sell me a ticket - machine out of order - and asked me to buy one
> from the second. She was only on from Preston to Wigan and as I got
> off apologized for not having had time to sell me a ticket (I
> introduced myself and my problem to both of them). Both Wigan
> Northwestern and Wigan Wallgate ticket offices were closed. I could
> find no ticket selling staff on the Wigan to Marsden train and no
> ticket check happened. Marsden station is unstaffed....
>

Was this the outward leg of a return journey, and if so, did you try to buy
a Saver *from* Lockerbie *to* Marsden somewhere on your return journey? Once
I bought a PTT from the machine at Longfield, and exchanged it for a CDR
Longfield to Rochester from the conductor on the train back to Longfield
(she didn't bat an eyelid at my request and issued the correct ticket from
her SPORTIS - though she didn't grip/scribble on either part of the ticket).

Peter

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:40:59 UTC, "Peter Masson" 
 wrote:

: 
: "Ian Johnston"  wrote >
: > I recently took the train from Lockerbie to Marsden.

: Was this the outward leg of a return journey, and if so, did you try to buy
: a Saver *from* Lockerbie *to* Marsden somewhere on your return journey?

Yes and no. The poor guard on the Marsden to Leeds train was thrown 
enough to be asked for a non-local ticket (he sold me Huddersfield to 
Lockerbie) that I couldn't bring myself to ask him to start it at the 
other end, two days previously.

Ian

On 30 Jul 2005 12:36:42 GMT, Ian Johnston wrote in
<cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-STMNIbyRgFCN@localhost>, seen in uk.railway:

> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:40:59 UTC, "Peter Masson" 
>  wrote:
> : "Ian Johnston"  wrote >
> : > I recently took the train from Lockerbie to Marsden.
> 
> : Was this the outward leg of a return journey, and if so, did you try to buy
> : a Saver *from* Lockerbie *to* Marsden somewhere on your return journey?
> 
> Yes and no. The poor guard on the Marsden to Leeds train was thrown 
> enough to be asked for a non-local ticket (he sold me Huddersfield to 
> Lockerbie) that I couldn't bring myself to ask him to start it at the 
> other end, two days previously.


He couldn't have done it, anyway. He could have issued the ticket from
Lockerbie, but he couldn't have dated it for the outward date of
travel, y'see.

-- 
Ross, Lincoln, UK

We're *not* afraid
http://www.werenotafraid.com

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:05:54 UTC, Ross  
wrote:

: On 30 Jul 2005 12:36:42 GMT, Ian Johnston wrote in
: <cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-STMNIbyRgFCN@localhost>, seen in uk.railway:

: > Yes and no. The poor guard on the Marsden to Leeds train was thrown 
: > enough to be asked for a non-local ticket (he sold me Huddersfield to 
: > Lockerbie) that I couldn't bring myself to ask him to start it at the 
: > other end, two days previously.
: 
: He couldn't have done it, anyway. He could have issued the ticket from
: Lockerbie, but he couldn't have dated it for the outward date of
: travel, y'see.

My halo has just perked up.

Thanks,

Ian

"matt"  wrote in message 
news:dcfop2$d87$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

> Nick Pedley wrote:
>   :
>> Virgin
>>
>>>more than 30p to deal with my complaint I will have achieved something.
>>>
>>
>> And they then have to recoup the costs of that by putting ticket prices 
>> up
>> in the future...
>
> At 23:15 last night, both ticket windows at Manchester Piccadilly has 
> signs saying "position closed". I meant to take a photo, but had to run to 
> get my train.
>
> The anomonly I suffer from is caused by getting the 20:48 from Stalybridge 
> to Manchester and the 23:19 back.
>
> Stalybridge ticket office closes around 20:00 and we have no machines.
>
> If I can get a ticket on the train in, it costs 1.05 for a Cheap Evening 
> Return.
>
> If not, I have to buy an Evening Ranger at Piccadilly (1.35) as the CER's 
> stop at 21:00. (The Ranger is valid until 02:30 am !)
>
> If, as last night, Virgin can't be bothered to sell me a ticket, I can 
> only get a standard single from a machine (or on the train) for 2.20.
>

If the evening ranger is the valid ticket for your train, then Piccadilly 
should sell it to you when you tell them which train you came on. You would 
have to do this as soon as you arrived.

Today the conductor could'nt be bothered to come round after leaving Dore at 
10.54 for Sheffield. I was going to Doncaster and had no problem in buying a 
reduced price ticket on the TPX to Doncaster.

PF

PF

"Peter Fox"  wrote in message 
news:dcfb9e$lr3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

>
> "CJ Bennett"  wrote in message 
> news:1122673563.257501.318650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> This is just to clarify Virgin's conditions of carriage and the NCOC . 
>> The
>> basic story is: joined a train at an unstaffed station,.the guard didn't
>> bother to sell me a ticket, changed trains with only a few minutes for 
>> the
>> connection onto a Virgin, where the guard didn't want to know and he 
>> charged
>> me the full fare. As far as I can see, the NCOC allows me to try to buy a
>> ticket from the guard where the station where I started my journey didn't
>> have a ticket office, so I started my journey at an unstaffed station, 
>> even
>> though I changed trains I was still making the same journey I was 
>> entitled
>> to a discount ticket from the Virgin guard.
>
> I had a similar problem a while ago with MML. I was travelling from
> Hinckley to Sheffield on a Friday evening, Hinckley ticket office
> closes at 1pm so I couldn't buy a ticket before I started my journey
> and there was no oppurtunity to buy one on the train from Hinckley.
> Normally I'd have chance at Leicester but train from Hinckley was about
> 20 mins late so I only just made my connection.
>
> Wallet and railcard out ready before MML's RPO entered the coach and I
> explained my situation but she charged me the full standard fare, after
> seething for a while I asked for her name when she next passed through,
> and presumably she advised the train manager as he came to speak to me
> and agreed with her action. Apparently I should've gone and bought my
> ticket, missed the train, waited around in the cold for almost an hour
> at Leicester, got to Sheffield late and missed the last bus, etc.
> Wonderful to see the railways being convenient and customer focussed.
>
> I wrote a letter the following week and the reply stated that although
> their staff had acted correctly they were sending 10 RTV's as a
> gesture of goodwill (slightly more than the extra it cost me).
> They clearly did not act correctly according to the conditions of 
> carriage.
>
> Peter Fox

THIS POSTING IS NOT FROM ME!

Peter Fox

(one of the) Peter Fox(s) wrote:
  :

>>If, as last night, Virgin can't be bothered to sell me a ticket, I can 
>>only get a standard single from a machine (or on the train) for 2.20.
>>
> 
> If the evening ranger is the valid ticket for your train, then Piccadilly 
> should sell it to you when you tell them which train you came on. You would 
> have to do this as soon as you arrived.


True, but there is usually a queue when I arrive into Manchester at 
21:05, which cuts into my available drinking time !  There is rarely a 
queue when I leave (around 23:15), although last Friday there was no 
queue as both positions were closed !

Would they still be allowed to sell me a CER after 21:00 ?

(See a previous rant of mine about wanting to be able to buy a "book" of 
rangers, like I'd buy a book of stamps).

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:37:08 +0000 (UTC), matt
 wrote:


>If I can get a ticket on the train in, it costs 1.05 for a Cheap 
>Evening Return.
>
>If not, I have to buy an Evening Ranger at Piccadilly (1.35) as the 
>CER's stop at 21:00. (The Ranger is valid until 02:30 am !)


I have been told in the past that the CERs are a Northern-only ticket
type, while the Rangers are "true" Any Permitted.  That said,
longer-distance services may be unable to sell them by virtue of not
being on their machines, and this has never quite been made clear.

I guess the way around it is to purchase on arrival!

That said, I don't understand why the FastTicket machines cannot be
programmed to issue PTE tickets.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On 30 Jul 2005 13:53:10 GMT, Ian Johnston wrote in
<cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-Nnxq5efbByiG@localhost>, seen in uk.railway:

> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:05:54 UTC, Ross  
> wrote:
> : On 30 Jul 2005 12:36:42 GMT, Ian Johnston wrote in
> : <cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-STMNIbyRgFCN@localhost>, seen in uk.railway:
> 
> : > Yes and no. The poor guard on the Marsden to Leeds train was thrown 
> : > enough to be asked for a non-local ticket (he sold me Huddersfield to 
> : > Lockerbie) that I couldn't bring myself to ask him to start it at the 
> : > other end, two days previously.
> : 
> : He couldn't have done it, anyway. He could have issued the ticket from
> : Lockerbie, but he couldn't have dated it for the outward date of
> : travel, y'see.
> 
> My halo has just perked up.


Besides, if the fares are as silly as those I used to deal with, it
stands a chance that you only paid a couple of quid less for the
single journey than you would have for the return, so I don't suppose
the railway's that bothered!

-- 
Ross, Lincoln, UK

We're *not* afraid
http://www.werenotafraid.com

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:45:24 +0000 (UTC), matt
 wrote:


>(See a previous rant of mine about wanting to be able to buy a "book" of 
>rangers, like I'd buy a book of stamps).


It is a great pity that British PTEs largely didn't go the way of
European-style ticket validation for local services.

Over in Merseyside you could, of course, purchase any number of
Saveaways to scratch off as required, though they don't have an
evening equivalent, and I do wonder if (with the installation of
ticket barriers in central Liverpool) whether they'll go over to APTIS
issues only.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Peter Fox wrote:

>THIS POSTING IS NOT FROM ME!


The headers would tend to suggest otherwise...

-- 
Neil Sunderland
Braunton, Devon

Please observe the Reply-To address

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:40:35 UTC, "Peter Fox" 
 wrote:

: NNTP-Posting-Host: host86-128-239-228.range86-128.btcentralplus.com
: X-Trace: nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com 1122741635 12585 86.128.239.228 (30 Jul 2005 16:40:35 GMT)

: "Peter Fox"  wrote in message 
: news:dcfb9e$lr3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
: > Peter Fox

: THIS POSTING IS NOT FROM ME!
:  
: Peter Fox 

Really? From the message in question:

NNTP-Posting-Host: host86-128-239-228.range86-128.btcentralplus.com
X-Trace: nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com 1122709614 22371 
86.128.239.228 (30 Jul 2005 07:46:54 GMT)

And from your denial

NNTP-Posting-Host: host86-128-239-228.range86-128.btcentralplus.com
X-Trace: nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com 1122741635 12585 
86.128.239.228 (30 Jul 2005 16:40:35 GMT)

Someone would seem to have gone to a lot of trouble to forge an 
innocuous post.

Ian

On 31 Jul 2005 15:02:54 GMT, "Ian Johnston"
 wrote:


>: "Peter Fox"  wrote in message 
>: news:dcfb9e$lr3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>: > Peter Fox
>
>: THIS POSTING IS NOT FROM ME!
>:  
>: Peter Fox 
>
>Really?
>
>Someone would seem to have gone to a lot of trouble to forge an 
>innocuous post.


Perhaps there is someone else who uses his computer?

"Neil Sunderland"  wrote in message 
news:pssne1lqksjj9nv178sb7q5t5nihsq5um4@4ax.com...

> Peter Fox wrote:
>>THIS POSTING IS NOT FROM ME!
>
> The headers would tend to suggest otherwise...
>
> -- 
> Neil Sunderland


Exactly! That is why I made the comment. How can this happen?

Peter Fox

"asdf" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message 
news:rpspe1p7q1on8ealenkrhbbn30cb632hkd@4ax.com...

> On 31 Jul 2005 15:02:54 GMT, "Ian Johnston"
>  wrote:
>
>>: "Peter Fox"  wrote in message
>>: news:dcfb9e$lr3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>: > Peter Fox
>>
>>: THIS POSTING IS NOT FROM ME!
>>:
>>: Peter Fox
>>
>>Really?
>>
>>Someone would seem to have gone to a lot of trouble to forge an
>>innocuous post.
>
> Perhaps there is someone else who uses his computer?


No there isn't. And I have never been to Hinckley in my life. So what is 
happening? Will the person who wrote this please own up, because I cannot 
understand what has happened.

Peter Fox

Peter Fox wrote:


> "asdf" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message 
> news:rpspe1p7q1on8ealenkrhbbn30cb632hkd@4ax.com...
> 
>>On 31 Jul 2005 15:02:54 GMT, "Ian Johnston"
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>: "Peter Fox"  wrote in message
>>>: news:dcfb9e$lr3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>>: > Peter Fox
>>>
>>>: THIS POSTING IS NOT FROM ME!
>>>:
>>>: Peter Fox
>>>
>>>Really?
>>>
>>>Someone would seem to have gone to a lot of trouble to forge an
>>>innocuous post.
>>
>>Perhaps there is someone else who uses his computer?
> 
> 
> No there isn't. And I have never been to Hinckley in my life. So what is 
> happening? Will the person who wrote this please own up, because I cannot 
> understand what has happened.


Was it a Full Moon on Friday ?  Did you wake up in the zoo with no 
clothes on ?

More likely a news server bug, but it's unlikely the bug would transpose 
headers in such a neat way. IME, when computers trash data, they 
ususally do it big time.  Maybe something got cached or an aborted 
transaction didn't roll back properly. Where I work, we call this 
"unfortunate timing", ie. a bug which you can't reproduce, but will 
probably never happen again !

(However, I know nothing of news servers and their protocols in case you 
hadn't already realised !)

>> Peter Fox wrote:
>>>THIS POSTING IS NOT FROM ME!

>Neil Sunderland wrote:
>> The headers would tend to suggest otherwise...


Peter Fox wrote:

>Exactly! That is why I made the comment. How can this happen?


If it wasn't you then, how do we know it is you now?

-- 
Neil Sunderland
Braunton, Devon

Please observe the Reply-To address

Peter Fox wrote:

>No there isn't. And I have never been to Hinckley in my life. So what is 
>happening? Will the person who wrote this please own up, because I cannot 
>understand what has happened.


It's word-for-word what CJ Bennett wrote in an earlier posting. I
suspect that you've accidentally re-posted it.

As you're using Outlook, it should still be in your sent items folder.

....and if it's there, then it *was* you.

-- 
Neil Sunderland
Braunton, Devon

Please observe the Reply-To address

On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:36:27 +0000 (UTC), "Peter Fox"
 wrote:


>
>"Neil Sunderland"  wrote in message 
>news:pssne1lqksjj9nv178sb7q5t5nihsq5um4@4ax.com...
>> Peter Fox wrote:
>>>THIS POSTING IS NOT FROM ME!
>>
>> The headers would tend to suggest otherwise...
>>
>> -- 
>> Neil Sunderland
>
>Exactly! That is why I made the comment. How can this happen?


Multiple personality disorder?

Someone accessing your PC via a trojan and forgetting to switch back
to their own computer before posting?

Bizarre glitch at your news server, splicing your headers and sig to
someone else's post?

Peter Fox wrote:

> "asdf" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:rpspe1p7q1on8ealenkrhbbn30cb632hkd@4ax.com...
>> On 31 Jul 2005 15:02:54 GMT, "Ian Johnston"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>> "Peter Fox"  wrote in message
>>>> news:dcfb9e$lr3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>>>> Peter Fox
>>>
>>>> THIS POSTING IS NOT FROM ME!
>>>>
>>>> Peter Fox
>>>
>>> Really?
>>>
>>> Someone would seem to have gone to a lot of trouble to forge an
>>> innocuous post.
>>
>> Perhaps there is someone else who uses his computer?
>
> No there isn't. And I have never been to Hinckley in my life. So
> what is happening? Will the person who wrote this please own up,
> because I cannot understand what has happened.


If your PC could not have been used by someone else, it looks like a
deliberate forgery.  The fact that it was an innocuous post may indicate
that it's someone testing out his hacking skills.  If you Google the web
for "NNTP forging", there are some quite revealing articles.

I suggest you report the matter, with full headers of the forged post
and one of yours, to abuse@btinternet.com

-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Richard J. wrote:

> Peter Fox wrote:
>> "asdf" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:rpspe1p7q1on8ealenkrhbbn30cb632hkd@4ax.com...
>>> On 31 Jul 2005 15:02:54 GMT, "Ian Johnston"
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>>> "Peter Fox"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:dcfb9e$lr3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>>>>> Peter Fox
>>>>
>>>>> THIS POSTING IS NOT FROM ME!
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Fox
>>>>
>>>> Really?
>>>>
>>>> Someone would seem to have gone to a lot of trouble to forge an
>>>> innocuous post.
>>>
>>> Perhaps there is someone else who uses his computer?
>>
>> No there isn't. And I have never been to Hinckley in my life. So
>> what is happening? Will the person who wrote this please own up,
>> because I cannot understand what has happened.
>
> If your PC could not have been used by someone else, it looks like a
> deliberate forgery.  The fact that it was an innocuous post may
> indicate that it's someone testing out his hacking skills.  If you
> Google the web for "NNTP forging", there are some quite revealing
> articles.
>
> I suggest you report the matter, with full headers of the forged
> post and one of yours, to abuse@btinternet.com


Sorry, ignore that.  I've just seen Neil Sunderland's 22:10 post.  As he
says, the text is the same as CJ Bennett's post of 29/7/2005 22:46.
But there's an extra line at the end:
"They clearly did not act correctly according to the conditions of
carriage."

Peter, did you add that line, but for some reason the quoted text from
CJ Bennett didn't have the > marks?

-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Richard J. wrote:

>But there's an extra line at the end:


Well spotted: I missed that one!

-- 
Neil Sunderland
Braunton, Devon

Please observe the Reply-To address

Tony Polson wrote:


> Adam Funk  wrote:
> 
>>Tony Polson wrote:
>>
>>>>Consider the case of a passenger who is at the very front of the train
>>>>and the guard who is at the very back of the train. If the train has 12
>>>>carriages, the passenger has to walk 12 carriage-lengths to reach the
>>>>guard. I think that's what Steve was meaning.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Do you know anyone who suffers from Asperger's Syndrome?
>>> 
>>> A close relative, perhaps?
>>
>>Do we now close this thread under the local variant of Godwin's Law?
>>
>>Unless Charlie Hulme objects, I propose it should be named in his honour.
>>(Message-ID <db0d65$1ba$1@godfrey.mcc.ac.uk>)
> 
> 
> Do I sense a certain irritation because some self-serving arbitrary
> rule is not being followed?


Ha! Subtle!

Charlie Hulme wrote:


> CJ Bennett wrote:
> 
>> I wrote a letter the following week and the reply stated that although
>> their staff had acted correctly they were sending 10 RTV's as a
>> gesture of goodwill (slightly more than the extra it cost me).
> 
> What an eccentric thing to do. If the staff acted correctly then
> why is a 'gesture of goodwill' required?


Maybe that's code for "The staff followed our management's orders but we
know they're wrong, so here's some compensation to stifle this complaint."

On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:04:55 UTC, Neil Sunderland 
 wrote:

: Peter Fox wrote:
: >Exactly! That is why I made the comment. How can this happen?
: 
: If it wasn't you then, how do we know it is you now?

Who said that?

Ian

Ian Johnston wrote:

>Who said that?


Hamlet, just before he said "that is the question", and just after "To
be or not to be".

-- 
Neil Sunderland
Braunton, Devon

Please observe the Reply-To address

Ian Johnston wrote:

>Who said that?


Hamlet, just before he said "is the question", and just after "To
be or not to be".

-- 
Neil Sunderland
Braunton, Devon

Please observe the Reply-To address

On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:17:52 UTC, Neil Sunderland 
 wrote:

: Ian Johnston wrote:
: >Who said that?
: 
: Hamlet, just before he said "is the question", and just after "To
: be or not to be".

He was a fool. Since when has "that" been a question?

Ian

"Richard J."  wrote in message 
news:rDbHe.80459$G8.18618@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> Richard J. wrote:
>> Peter Fox wrote:
>>> "asdf" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:rpspe1p7q1on8ealenkrhbbn30cb632hkd@4ax.com...
>>>> On 31 Jul 2005 15:02:54 GMT, "Ian Johnston"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> "Peter Fox"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:dcfb9e$lr3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>>>>>> Peter Fox
>>>>>
>>>>>> THIS POSTING IS NOT FROM ME!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter Fox
>>>>>
>>>>> Really?
>>>>>
>>>>> Someone would seem to have gone to a lot of trouble to forge an
>>>>> innocuous post.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps there is someone else who uses his computer?
>>>
>>> No there isn't. And I have never been to Hinckley in my life. So
>>> what is happening? Will the person who wrote this please own up,
>>> because I cannot understand what has happened.
>>
>> If your PC could not have been used by someone else, it looks like a
>> deliberate forgery.  The fact that it was an innocuous post may
>> indicate that it's someone testing out his hacking skills.  If you
>> Google the web for "NNTP forging", there are some quite revealing
>> articles.
>>
>> I suggest you report the matter, with full headers of the forged
>> post and one of yours, to abuse@btinternet.com
>
> Sorry, ignore that.  I've just seen Neil Sunderland's 22:10 post.  As he
> says, the text is the same as CJ Bennett's post of 29/7/2005 22:46.
> But there's an extra line at the end:
> "They clearly did not act correctly according to the conditions of
> carriage."
>
> Peter, did you add that line, but for some reason the quoted text from
> CJ Bennett didn't have the > marks?
>

Now I have looked at it again, yes I did! Sorry for the confusion. I feel a 
fool!

Peter