Since the bombings I've been hearing the same phrase repeated in news
reports which is puzzling me. Indeed, it was repeated again in the
Trauma progamme on BBC1 last night....

I've seen where the Aldgate train was stopped, and I understand part
the Piccadilly line train was stopped on the reversing crossover south
of Kings Cross.

Whats puzzling me is where the Edgware Road train was. Reports have
repeatedly said "the blast blew a hole through the tunnel wall and
damaged another train in the adjoining tunnel" (or very similar).

As a regular user of the lines from Paddington to Kings Cross I cant
think of an adjoining tunnel at Edgware Road. As far as I'm aware all
tracks share the same cut and cover tunnel. Unless... the train was at
Praed Street Junction, but even there I've always assume the H&C lines
curve quickly away from the Circle.

So, does anyone know exactly where the train was? Is this case of
someone reporting damage to Edgware Road station structures, or was it
at the Praed Street junction, or is the whole thing a mistake which
has been perpetuated by word of mouth?

TIA

JohnK

p.s. I've discounted the Bakerloo line tunnels at Edgware Road because
I assume they are too deep to be affected, plus there has been no
interruption to their services.

John F Kappler wrote:

> Since the bombings I've been hearing the same phrase repeated in
> news reports which is puzzling me. Indeed, it was repeated again in
> the Trauma progamme on BBC1 last night....
>
> I've seen where the Aldgate train was stopped, and I understand part
> the Piccadilly line train was stopped on the reversing crossover
> south of Kings Cross.
>
> Whats puzzling me is where the Edgware Road train was. Reports have
> repeatedly said "the blast blew a hole through the tunnel wall and
> damaged another train in the adjoining tunnel" (or very similar).


Other reports, including an interview with the driver of the other
train, indicated that the two trains were passing in the double-track
tunnel between Praed Street Junction and Edgware Road station.  There
have been no reports subsequently of structural damage to the tunnel.  I
suspect that it may have been an ignorant journalist who thought that
the Circle Line had single-track tunnels like the deep tubes, and
concluded that if another train had been damaged, there must have been a
tunnel breach.
-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

John F Kappler wrote:

> Since the bombings I've been hearing the same phrase repeated in news
> reports which is puzzling me. Indeed, it was repeated again in the
> Trauma progamme on BBC1 last night....
>
> I've seen where the Aldgate train was stopped, and I understand part
> the Piccadilly line train was stopped on the reversing crossover south
> of Kings Cross.
>
> Whats puzzling me is where the Edgware Road train was. Reports have
> repeatedly said "the blast blew a hole through the tunnel wall and
> damaged another train in the adjoining tunnel" (or very similar).


hmm, sorry if this seems OT but on the travel reports on BBC R5Live,
they have said at times that there has been a peak hours service from
hammersmith to paddington [H&C]. now i have used this line quite a few
times over the years and one thing bugs me.

if they are using this line in peak hours how and where are they
turning back the stock? are they using SLW at all? i ask as on a coach
ride last sunday along the A-40 [from where i'm sure that you can
see some of the H&C line west of paddington], i am sure that i saw some
station staff busy at one of the stations.

perhaps [and this would help me] someone could post a summary of the
service alterations as a result of these attacks, as i am not sure
whats closed & whats open to be honest.

t.

Trevor wrote:

>
> perhaps [and this would help me] someone could post a summary of the
> service alterations as a result of these attacks, as i am not sure
> whats closed & whats open to be honest.


NRES have a summary at <http://nrekb.com/London_22_July_info.html>.

TfL have information at
<http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/service_realtime_all.shtml>, and an
intriguing "Real Time Disruption Map" at
<http://map.tfl.gov.uk/realtime.asp>.

Today's good news is that the District Line is running into Edgware
Road again.

The Piccadilly Line alterations puzzle me slightly. No service between
Rayners Lane and Uxbridge, presumably because that section is
duplicated by the Metropolitan, and there probably aren't enough Picc
Line trains on the system, west of Hyde Park Corner. But there /is/ a
service, apparently, between Cockfosters and Arnos Grove. How many
people are using that, I wonder?
-- 
Pat Ricroft, City of Salford, UK
================================

"Trevor"  wrote

>
> perhaps [and this would help me] someone could post a summary of the
> service alterations as a result of these attacks, as i am not sure
> whats closed & whats open to be honest.
>

It's not easy to track down exactly what's happening from the TfL website,
but it seems that:
District Line is now running a full service, including Edgware Road.
No Circle service yet.
No Hammersmith & City at all. It had been running Hammersmith - Paddington,
but from today until Monday inclusive it's shut for planned bridge works at
Shepherds Bush. They are saying progressive reintroduction of full H&C and
Circle service from Tuesday.
Piccadilly still suspended betyween Arnos Grove and Hyde Park Corner, also
no Piccadilly (only Met) trains between Rayners Lane and Uxbridge.

Peter

Peter Masson wrote:

> "Trevor"  wrote
> >
> > perhaps [and this would help me] someone could post a summary of the
> > service alterations as a result of these attacks, as i am not sure
> > whats closed & whats open to be honest.
> >
> It's not easy to track down exactly what's happening from the TfL website,
> but it seems that:
> District Line is now running a full service, including Edgware Road.
> No Circle service yet.
> No Hammersmith & City at all. It had been running Hammersmith - Paddington,
> but from today until Monday inclusive it's shut for planned bridge works at
> Shepherds Bush. They are saying progressive reintroduction of full H&C and
> Circle service from Tuesday.
> Piccadilly still suspended betyween Arnos Grove and Hyde Park Corner, also
> no Piccadilly (only Met) trains between Rayners Lane and Uxbridge.
>
> Peter



Does that mean that the trains running on the Edgware Road District can
get by without the maintenance normally done at Hammersmith for a
while, or are they being maintained at Ealing Common?

>Today's good news is that the District Line is running into Edgware
>Road again.
>
>The Piccadilly Line alterations puzzle me slightly. No service between
>Rayners Lane and Uxbridge, presumably because that section is
>duplicated by the Metropolitan, and there probably aren't enough Picc
>Line trains on the system, west of Hyde Park Corner. But there /is/ a
>service, apparently, between Cockfosters and Arnos Grove. How many
>people are using that, I wonder?



I've been thinking that, given that the bombing happened in the rush
hour, the maximum number of trains would have been out on the line, and
evenly spread across it.

But the location of the bombing would have left the majority of the
line able to reach Northfields, and not so much of it able to reach
Cockfosters.  Perhaps Northfields can't cope with the high proportion
of trains that would have been that side of the blockage, either for
maintenance or for crews.  Don't really know how these things work out.

Trevor wrote:
snip> if they are using this line in peak hours how and where are they

> turning back the stock? are they using SLW at all? i ask as on a coach
> ride last sunday along the A-40 [from where i'm sure that you can
> see some of the H&C line west of paddington], i am sure that i saw some
> station staff busy at one of the stations.

snip

I believe they were turning at Paddington and running wrong line back
to a crossover at Royal Oak

Does anyone know when a full Pic line service is to resume?  Or if a
specific date has not been set how long is it likely to be closed for?

In article ,
Pat Ricroft  wrote:

>The Piccadilly Line alterations puzzle me slightly. No service between
>Rayners Lane and Uxbridge, presumably because that section is
>duplicated by the Metropolitan, and there probably aren't enough Picc
>Line trains on the system, west of Hyde Park Corner. But there /is/ a
>service, apparently, between Cockfosters and Arnos Grove. How many
>people are using that, I wonder?


 The service continues via Bustition to Finchley Central or Seven
Sisters (via stops at other stations on route), so it's not that
illogical -- there just aren't any crossovers available to turn trains
around south of Arnos Grove.

-- 
Jonathan Amery.      Oh, Master, grant that I may never seek
   #####                So much to be consoled as to console;
  #######__o         To be understood as to understand;
  #######'/             To be loved as to love with all my soul.

Pat Ricroft wrote:

> But there /is/ a
> service, apparently, between Cockfosters and Arnos Grove. How many
> people are using that, I wonder?


There is no way of reversing a train from Cockfoster south of Arnos
Grove - hence the large gap on the Piccadilly Line between the latter
and Central London. There's a reversing spur at Wood Green, but it
faces in the wrong direction (i.e. can only be used to reverse trains
coming from London). There's a connection with the Victoria Line at
Finsbury Park - but this can't be used for reversing movements. The
next reversing point is south of Kings Cross, which can't be used for
obvious reasons. The only other option I can see if for some Victoria
Line trains to be diverted onto the Piccadilly Line at Finsbury Park
(maybe there are reasons why this can't be done). So I think Piccadilly
Line passengers are going to be left without a service for quite some
time (depending on how much damage there is to the tunnel at KX).

An LT press release on 19 July said:

It will be several weeks before a full service is resumed on the
Piccadilly line, with the damage at that site being much more extensive
than at Aldgate and Edgware Road.

Haven't spotted anything more recent.

"malc"  wrote in message
news:1122639263.945376.310720@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Pat Ricroft wrote:
> > But there /is/ a
> > service, apparently, between Cockfosters and Arnos Grove. How many
> > people are using that, I wonder?
>
> There is no way of reversing a train from Cockfoster south of Arnos
> Grove - hence the large gap on the Piccadilly Line between the latter
> and Central London. There's a reversing spur at Wood Green, but it
> faces in the wrong direction (i.e. can only be used to reverse trains
> coming from London).


A reversal IS possible at Wood Green via a triple reversal. The signalling
probably isn't set up for it, but in time of emergency...

Likewise, I don't see any particular reason why single line working can't be
introduced at least between Arnos Grove and Finsbury Park. There must
logically be spare crews now, so surely a second man would fulfill any need
for extra vigilance.


-- 
Ronnie
--
Have a great day...
....Have a Great Central day.
www.greatcentralrailway.com

In article ,
malc  wrote:

>Pat Ricroft wrote:
>> But there /is/ a
>> service, apparently, between Cockfosters and Arnos Grove. How many
>> people are using that, I wonder?
>
>obvious reasons. The only other option I can see if for some Victoria
>Line trains to be diverted onto the Piccadilly Line at Finsbury Park
>(maybe there are reasons why this can't be done). So I think Piccadilly


 The connections between the lines appear to be in the wrong
orientation -- you can travel from the northbound Piccadilly to the
northbound Victoria or the southbound Victoria to the southbound
Piccadilly; but not the other ways around.

-- 
Jonathan Amery.      Here I am Lord, Is it I Lord?
   #####                I have heard you calling in the night.
  #######__o         I will go Lord, if you lead me.
  #######'/             I will hold your people in my heart. - Daniel Schutte

In article , malc
 writes

>The only other option I can see if for some Victoria
>Line trains to be diverted onto the Piccadilly Line at Finsbury Park
>(maybe there are reasons why this can't be done). So I think Piccadilly
>Line passengers are going to be left without a service for quite some
>time (depending on how much damage there is to the tunnel at KX).


Since it started it 1969  Victoria Line has been unique, it doesn't have
drivers so to speak - The train is driven automatically 
Some years ago I was stuck at Victoria after a Northbound service had
failed south of the station. Train was terminated at Victoria as it had
to be driven manually back to depot, as Manual driving with passengers
is not permitted.  No doubt some LT readers will have more info on this.

-- 
Al

In article ,
dtren@my-deja.com writes

>An LT press release on 19 July said:
>
>It will be several weeks before a full service is resumed on the
>Piccadilly line, with the damage at that site being much more extensive
>than at Aldgate and Edgware Road.
>
>Haven't spotted anything more recent.
>


I believe they have some concerns about the tunnel infrastructure itself
might be damaged, in which case could be a very long time.
-- 
Al

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:16:36 GMT, johnk@pceffect.co.uk (John F
Kappler) wrote:


>Since the bombings I've been hearing the same phrase repeated in news
>reports which is puzzling me. Indeed, it was repeated again in the
>Trauma progamme on BBC1 last night....
<snip>
>
>So, does anyone know exactly where the train was? Is this case of
>someone reporting damage to Edgware Road station structures, or was it
>at the Praed Street junction, or is the whole thing a mistake which
>has been perpetuated by word of mouth?
>

According to the LURS journal "Underground News" the location was-
"...just west of Edgware Road, between the station and Praed Street
junction."
Considering that most of the television reports on the day were
showing maps with the incident wrongly located at the same-named tube
station actually in the Edgware Road (outside which at least one
reporter thought he was above the incident) the usual pinch of salt
was required for any descriptions given in news reports.
-- 
                                                             _______
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |\\   //|
 | Charles Ellson: charles@e11son.demon.co.uk        |      | \\ // |
 +---------------------------------------------------+      |  > <  |
                                                            | // \\ |
                                              Alba gu brath |//___\\|

Ronnie Clark wrote:


> Likewise, I don't see any particular reason why single line working can't be
> introduced at least between Arnos Grove and Finsbury Park. There must
> logically be spare crews now, so surely a second man would fulfill any need
> for extra vigilance.


But surely then you'd only be able to get 1 train going back and 
forwards up and down the line? Logistically it would be possible, but 
there's no way it would be workable or of any practical use for 
passengers as there are just too many of them.

The trains were busy enough when there was a one every 3 minutes... I 
dread to think what it would be like with 1 in each direction every 40 
minutes or so

Thanks everyone - That's what I suspected.

Incidentally it wasn't 'till yesterday I heard that part of the
Piccadilly line train was stopped on the reversing crossover.

As some of you may know, I run an Internet-based Transport Bookshop.
Interestingly the last two weeks has seen an upsurge in orders for the
"London Transport Railway Track Map"!

JohnK
www.transportdiversions.com

DERWENT Re: Position of train at Edgware Road on 7/7
 29 Jul 2005 02:17:56 -0700, "Pat Ricroft"  



>The Piccadilly Line alterations puzzle me slightly. No service between
>Rayners Lane and Uxbridge, presumably because that section is
>duplicated by the Metropolitan, and there probably aren't enough Picc
>Line trains on the system, west of Hyde Park Corner. But there /is/ a
>service, apparently, between Cockfosters and Arnos Grove. How many
>people are using that, I wonder?



Today (Sunday), I had a train to myself (bar the driver). They had 3
or 4 trains in operation.

PRAR
-- 
<http://www.i.am/prar/> and <http://prar.fotopic.net/>
As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it. --Dick Cavett
Please reply to the newsgroup. That is why it exists.
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